Hard day Cont'd 5...

[MaroonLiquid]

I'll be honest.  I would love to have a relationship with them, but (I hate putting that word here because it makes it seem as if what I said prior is irrelevant, but it isn't) herein lies my problem.  I truly feel I am at a crossroads with her as far as showing her what I will  accept and allow in my life.  She knows I love the kids, but she also knows she has cut me out of their life.  She has to live with that.  The other night when she dysregulated (excuse was my new cell phone), she made several statements that speak volumes about where she is right now.  The first was that, "My issues run deeper than I ever thought", "The kids are starting to show some difficult issues" and, "You never contact the kids". 

     When she mentioned her issues, I told her that I understand how difficult that is and that I realized mine months ago and that is a difficult realization to come to.  I assured her that when she found a counselor to help her that I would be there.  She just cried.

     When talking about the kids issues, she mentioned that D12 is extremely bossy, D16 is withdrawn, and S17 is aggressively angry.  We on this board know this is mostly fallout from her issues, but also the havoc she has caused and continues to.  I told her that by seeing us work on our issues and healing ourselves and the marriage, that would speak volumes to them and give them security.  I told her that we could get them back in counseling also and that they would get through it.

     I reminded her of what she asked of me several times during this separation (always during a dysregulation).  I said to her, "You asked me not to contact you, the kids or your family and to leave y'all alone.  I told her that I honored that request each time because I will not do something that makes me look as if I'm crazy or a stalker and know that this is especially difficult on them.  I'm showing that I have the integrity to honor what you ask, and that if that isn't what you want, then you need to say exactly what you mean.  The times I have contacted them, they haven't responded and that is ok, I just wanted them to know I am there."  She was crying and said that she appreciated it and understood why.  She said she wanted to show the kids that with God, two people who really love each other can admit their issues, work on them, and still work out.  I told her I agreed.

     I sent her flowers for her birthday (ordered before she dysregulated and got there the night before her birthday, 2 days after her dysregulation and taking my car) and didn't let me know they came, or say thank you.  I wasn't expecting her to and that wasn't the reason I did it.  She posted a picture of the flowers S17 bought for her on Facebook and posted, "He's still my #1 guy".     I didn't contact her on her birthday due to the car situation and because I sent her flowers.  I'm not making excuses, but she is pissed at me right now.  I believe it's because I included her sister on the text about the vehicle (done hiding, done being a victim and done covering her sins) and when she tried to turn it around on me asking about health insurance, I responded, "As I've said for weeks, I would love to keep y'all on if/when she is willing to work on the marriage/reconciliation and not act as if she is single."  I texted her last night to see if she had a moment to talk as I was going to talk with her legitimately about the insurance stuff.  No response.  Honestly, I'm glad as I was feeling weak last night and missed her.  As controlling as she has been, she would probably see this as a way to "get to her", or just flat out say no.  The counselor I met with last week said that due to the narcissism in her, the nicer I am, the more she will take advantage of me.  This is all about control.  I also believe she is overwhelmed by several things: the fact that I am way more independent than I ever showed before/she ever thought I would be, I have changed in my behavior towards her and don't react negatively hardly at all anymore, the kids are having problems and she just gets worse.  One thing that has come out of her mouth like two months ago that I'm looking at about myself was, "You care more about the relationship than you do yourself."  She was right.  I'm almost to the point that to protect my kids, my love for her and I, I'm thinking about sending a "stepping away" letter.  That she needs to decide what it is she wants, gets help for her own issues.  Then if it's me she decides she wants when that happens and I'm still here, then great.  But I won't promise anything.  But I can't do this push/pull much longer and have hope in her 10-15 minutes of lucidity and then dysregulate over something stupid.  It's time she get help.  She recognizes her stuff, and it's time she step out and as she tells me, "Man Up". 

     She just texted me and said, "What do you need?"

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

If you want time with her kids... .tell her that. No harm there. (Agree w/ FF: Don't tip your hand 'till a lawyer says that this is possible to enforce!)

You sound like you don't know quite what you want... .I'll put some words into your mouth... .see how they fit, and if they do, make some of them your own:

You don't want the kind of r/s you had with her pre-separation.

You want some sort of idealized/fantasy r/s with her that she may not even be capable of. Either something you once had, or something you once thought you had when you were painted white.

You don't want to be abused and taken advantage of by her.

You aren't sure when to give up on the r/s completely.



That is pretty ambiguous, and any outcome is uncertain. (Except for a choice you make not to accept abuse, stealing, etc.)

If you have clear simple things you value and want with her kids... .that actually have nothing to do with her... .that may be a better place to focus your energies for now.

Time can help you resolve the ambiguity.

[MaroonLiquid]

If you want time with her kids... .tell her that. No harm there. (Agree w/ FF: Don't tip your hand 'till a lawyer says that this is possible to enforce!)

You sound like you don't know quite what you want... .I'll put some words into your mouth... .see how they fit, and if they do, make some of them your own:

You don't want the kind of r/s you had with her pre-separation.

You want some sort of idealized/fantasy r/s with her that she may not even be capable of. Either something you once had, or something you once thought you had when you were painted white.

You don't want to be abused and taken advantage of by her.

You aren't sure when to give up on the r/s completely.

These are very true.  Especially 1, 3 and 4.  The second one, is somewhat true.  I want what I know we had and I think you are right when you say she isn't capable of it right now.  How do I handle that with her and letting her know I'm not pressuring her but at the same time not wait around forever?

[Grey Kitty]

My suggestion is just stop talking to her about the future of your r/s for now.

Has anything good come of those discussions yet?

... .discuss something you care about, and know what you want, like her kids.

[Grey Kitty]

* I'm not suggesting that you refuse to talk about your r/s with her... .if she brings it up.

[MaroonLiquid]

* I'm not suggesting that you refuse to talk about your r/s with her... .if she brings it up.

She is the one that brought it up last week when she dysregulated... .Either way I'm screwed there... .

[MaroonLiquid]

* I'm not suggesting that you refuse to talk about your r/s with her... .if she brings it up.

So I called her.  I told her that I realize that at times I have used the insurance thing as a way to manipulate her into doing what I want her to do and asked for her forgiveness.  She said she forgives me.  I asked if we could discuss the insurance issue and she said it is a done deal and that she already got it through her company.  I said ok, I would like to start spending some time with the kids as I miss them.  She said she was filing for divorce as fundamental things (trust in me  , etc) in a marriage aren't there.  And my phone was the perfect example of that.  I told her I was sorry she felt that way (did not defend myself) and that she has the right to go that route if she so chooses and that I believed that Wednesday we got somewhere.  She said, "We did, but I have the right to choose my own path , I won't go around this merry go round anymore with you"  I said ok... .I was sorry she felt that way but that she was going to have to do it if thats what she wants.  She said she has already drafted a "first draft", said to let her know by Friday what I wanted (here we go again  ) so she could finalize the paperwork.  I said, "Ok" and she said, "I have to go" and hung up.  WTH?  So no matter what I make it, she ends it in a fight.

[Grey Kitty]

You did a good job of not biting on the bait she threw at you. 

Unless you are ready to file for divorce... .don't send her a draft of anything.

Her "I want a divorce" doesn't mean anything until she sends you legal papers.

[MaroonLiquid]

You did a good job of not biting on the bait she threw at you.  

Unless you are ready to file for divorce... .don't send her a draft of anything.

Her "I want a divorce" doesn't mean anything until she sends you legal papers.

One thing in the conversation she started throwing around was projection.  She said, "Your deceitful, you try and hide things, you have no integrity, blah, blah, blah... ."  I responded with I'm sorry you feel that way.  The hilarious thing is, I could look at it as she set the whole thing up with the vehicle to have the better one and file for divorce!  And I'm deceitful!    She also asked, ":)o I need to have you served or will you sign the papers".  I said I won't fight you if that is what you truly want.  I realize now that the Lord led me to call to flush out this crap.  I'm not scared anymore... .Honestly... .I find it funny now... .

[formflier]

 

Be careul saying things like "OK" around divorce talk... .that is my only coaching comment.

I think you bore up under that well.

I know that is not the conversation you wanted to have with her... .hang in there... .  

[MaroonLiquid]

Be careul saying things like "OK" around divorce talk... .that is my only coaching comment.

I think you bore up under that well.

I know that is not the conversation you wanted to have with her... .hang in there... .  

What do you mean "bore up"?  I realize now the last two times (including today) I have had this "divorce conversation" with her, the Lord has let me deal with all the emotion the day before to help me stay calm in the moment with her.  My pastor thinks she wanted to hear the validating thing of "I'm standing for the marriage" that I have always said (and still am), because it makes her feel better about what she has done and knows that I'll be there no matter what.  That made a lot of sense, but made sure I did not do that this time.  She needs to start addressing that I have my limit... .

[formflier]

 

Bore up... ."held up"... .did well with it

[MaroonLiquid]

Bore up... ."held up"... .did well with it

Ok, the last time she brought up divorce with me was when she stole my laptop... .

[formflier]

Might want to inventory your possessions again!   

 

[MaroonLiquid]

Might want to inventory your possessions again!   

 

  That was funny... .

[formflier]

Please go do something fun today... .just for you... .

Let us know what that was... .

Hang in there Maroon

[MaroonLiquid]

I have a question... .I'm curious as to why my new cell phone was a trigger for my wife to dysregulate and end up justifying taking my car... .I'm not concerned about it, but trying to figure that out.  It's not rational so maybe I wont... .

[Grey Kitty]

I have a question... .I'm curious as to why my new cell phone was a trigger for my wife

It represents you being separate from her, doing something that she doesn't match her desires or plans for you. Which she cannot understand.

Or it represents you going farther away from her. She is used to controlling the push-pull. She keeps your distance at the level she finds comfortable. If you move farther away, she wants to yank you back in.

Or both.

to dysregulate and end up justifying taking my car... .I'm not concerned about it, but trying to figure that out.  It's not rational so maybe I wont... .

Understanding why she chooses to dysregulate in a particular way is pointless.

A friend of mine says "There's no cheese at the end of that maze."

[MaroonLiquid]

I have a question... .I'm curious as to why my new cell phone was a trigger for my wife

It represents you being separate from her, doing something that she doesn't match her desires or plans for you. Which she cannot understand.

Or it represents you going farther away from her. She is used to controlling the push-pull. She keeps your distance at the level she finds comfortable. If you move farther away, she wants to yank you back in.

Or both.

That is completely narcissistic but makes complete sense.  It is almost like she wants me to have nothing (taking my laptop, car) and make me believe I can't do things on my own or would fail without her (She also believes that and reality isn't kind for her right now).  She can't stand the fact that I'm stable, seem happy in spite of the circumstances and she is anything but in both categories and knows it.  Is this what causes them to "wake up and realize they need help" or "move on"?     

[MaroonLiquid]

So I'm trying to understand why I'm feeling a little fear/guilt today.  Is that FOG from the conversation with her yesterday when she tried to bait me with divorce?  I almost feel like I invalidated her when she told me the basic building blocks of a marriage (trust, etc) between us aren't there and I said, "I'm sorry you feel that way."  The thing is, that is projection on her part.  I have done everything I can to put her first these last four months and don't know how to validate that from her when it is obvious it isn't the truth.

[Grey Kitty]

She can't stand the fact that I'm stable, seem happy in spite of the circumstances and she is anything but in both categories and knows it.  Is this what causes them to "wake up and realize they need help" or "move on"?     

Good question. My answer: NOPE.

This *might* cause her to realize she needs some kind of help. Or not.

I put the chances of making her decide to "move on" at .00001%. Don't expect any sort of clean closure from her side of the table. If you want to move on, you have to make that decision.

I'm in the same hot seat with you. 

[MaroonLiquid]

She can't stand the fact that I'm stable, seem happy in spite of the circumstances and she is anything but in both categories and knows it.  Is this what causes them to "wake up and realize they need help" or "move on"?      

Good question. My answer: NOPE.

This *might* cause her to realize she needs some kind of help. Or not.

I put the chances of making her decide to "move on" at .00001%. Don't expect any sort of clean closure from her side of the table. If you want to move on, you have to make that decision.

I'm in the same hot seat with you.  

I don't want to "move on" at this point, but want her to get help and work on the marriage... .I know she said she "wants a divorce", but think that is push/pull with her history, but may be wrong.

[Grey Kitty]

Maroon Liquid, I'm not trying to suggest you do move on, or that you are ready to.

I'm saying she is almost certain to use divorce threats as another push-pull move, and very unlikely to move on in a clean way. Here is YOUR menu of choices:

1. Move on.

2. Put up with her attempting to play push-pull games with you.

3. Wait for her to get help... .This looks suspiciously like option #2

4. Wait for her to move on... .This looks suspiciously like option #2

There is some range within option #2. How you take care of yourself, and how you respond. Not chasing her does take some of the her satisfaction out of running away, which could tone things down... .eventually.

[formflier]

  "I'm sorry you feel that way." 

I don't think this invalidated... that was a safe response... also honest.

[MaroonLiquid]

So with having my kids this weekend, I'm expecting an "event" from my wife.  She usually tries to start stuff on the weekends with them I guess because it isn't about her or her kids (again, her fault).  The funny thing is, all the stuff she has belittled me with, [not taking responsibility for my kids (now I see that as projection from her childhood and her ex), not being responsible, and not "manning up", can't make it on my own], she is now seeing herself as not true, even though she still tries and hits me with it.  The sad thing is, she told me last week she really misses my kids, but then dysregulates and ignores them.  They really miss her, but with the state she has been in, it's probably a good thing right now.

[MaroonLiquid]

Also, my wife completely went off on someone she doesn't even know on Facebook yesterday and tagged our daughter.  Some man asked our daughter (in a derogetory tone according to her) something at a choir concert about "lettering in choir" as a freshman last year.  I guess he made it sound nerdy or something and my wife went into a "full on rant post"  addressed to, "The man who approached my daughter" calling him a coward, outdated, and judgemental.  She called him a coward because he did it without my wife present and how he awoke the "momma bear" in her and he needs to be taught about "manners and passion"... .Geez, I know the guy wasn't right, but you are going to air it on Facebook to someone who can't even read it?  And to call someone else out about manners?       It's hard not to look at this stuff now and not see it for what it is and realize she has to take her "crap" out on someone. 

[Rapt Reader]

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