The trust has gone

[KateCat]

Indyan,

Thank you for updating me on treatments for schizophrenia in France today. I can add that Japan too follows the pharmaceutical treatment model, since my husband's sister was diagnosed with and treated for schizophrenia there (her native country).

Interesting thought from Mutt that a PD is "more difficult for a mental illness" than schizophrenia. I've never heard anyone express this opinion but can see how that might actually be the case for a spouse or partner. Eventually there are fewer surprises for the "non" when a family member is diagnosed as schizophrenic. But a personality disorder always seems to keep everyone "guessing."

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Mutt]

KateCat,

I'm saying one has pharmaceuticals. BPD is the most difficult to treat out of personality disorders. Bottom line to me is mental illness is hard on families  We can only control what we own.

[KateCat]

Very hard.

One thing I'm thinking is that if Indyan's partner is developing schizophrenia, Indyan likely won't experience the type of romantic  triangulation that you have suffered. And her partner likely won't be able to pull off any really effective smear campaigns or legal actions against her.

At least from what I've seen among my affected family members, others (like attorneys and probably potential love interests) will sense that this person is mentally ill at some fairly early point.

It's great that you're getting real life guidance, Indyan. That will help so much.

[Mutt]

Smear campaigns start well before the end. I suggest reading SWOE and the chapter on distortion / smear campaings. I triggered mine before the triangulation. Neither my L or her L detected BPD. You can check the legal board and see how difficult personality disorders are in the judicial system. It's a nightmare.

[KateCat]

Whew, I've read dozens and dozens of stories on the legal board. What a nightmare!

A schizophrenic cannot pull off these legal court battles, I believe. My husband has tried to sue many people for many things over the years, and attorneys do not take his cases, after a quick review of his "evidence."

In that respect, my life has been much easier than it would have been were he personality disordered rather than schizophrenic.

I will bet that Indyan will have a much better idea of which path she is on with her partner within the next year, if not sooner.

[Indyan]

Very hard.

One thing I'm thinking is that if Indyan's partner is developing schizophrenia, Indyan likely won't experience the type of romantic  triangulation that you have suffered. And her partner likely won't be able to pull off any really effective smear campaigns or legal actions against her.

At least from what I've seen among my affected family members, others (like attorneys and probably potential love interests) will sense that this person is mentally ill at some fairly early point.

It's great that you're getting real life guidance, Indyan. That will help so much.

Indeed, there's little chance that he will go dating other women. He has no social life and tends to be rather shy with women. But he's a very attractive man and it's not impossible that a woman would try to seduce him (as I did when he separated).

I do believe that attorneys quickly sense there's something wrong with him. He quickly gets delirious. In July, just before going totally paranoid, he even wrote a long mail (I went snooping as I knew he was hiding something, and it was the lawyer) and sent it (by mistake) to someone from the Job Centre 

What he wrote obviously came from a very deranged mind. He described an ordeal and I was the persecutor.

I think that stuff was intended for his lawyer, but I'm not sure.

Apparently his lawyer has advised him to try and "negociate" things with me.

The T told me "the judge will see that he's not well", but it's not that obvious, unless he really starts talking about things. But one may also think that he had to deal with an evil woman (me), that's what his family ended up believing, and that's really hard.

In my country, recordings have no legal value. Surely his lawyer must have told him. Even if it had, I can't figure out what he'd like to prove - that I persecute him? But the only thing we probably hear is "Leave me alone you're harrassing me... ." 

Poor man, I feel sorry for him  :'(

[Indyan]

My husband has tried to sue many people for many things over the years, and attorneys do not take his cases, after a quick review of his "evidence."

Yes, this.

His "evidence" is nonsense.

For starters, he has noone to testify of anything, only his parents and his 2 sisters.

[Indyan]

FYI, something I wrote in another part of the board:

"I gathered from the Therapist that these are the symptoms that lead him to a SZ pre-diagnosis:

- obsession/delirium of persecution and paranoia (there might be voices too)

- no social life, not even one friend

- episodes of psychotic behaviour (answers that don't make any sense, for example he answered about his mother when clearly the conversation was about US).

- total absence of feelings and empathy (robot attitude) for weeks on.

Things in common between BPD and SZ or STPD:

- mood swings

- ambivalent feelings

- episodes of depression with suicidal ideas

- a cahotic professional and love life"

[KateCat]

It has to be painful that his family "believes him," at least for now. I never experienced that as my husband's family had already had the painful experience of another family member who began to feel persecuted and harassed by others. In fact, my poor in-laws had to endure the fact that their own daughter believed they were trying to kill her.

Sadly, she had these beliefs even after meds.

But I think her case was pretty extreme, and she succumbed to the illness by her early twenties. If your partner should turn out to be more similar to my husband (and who knows?) he may be able to function pretty darn well throughout his life, all things considered.

[Mutt]

Indeed, there's little chance that he will go dating other women. He has no social life and tends to be rather shy with women. But he's a very attractive man and it's not impossible that a woman would try to seduce him (as I did when he separated).

I thought this exact same thing as well Indyan. We're married with (4) young children, there's no way she's going to find another person because I'm the sole provider and she's financially depended as well. Who's going to take on four kids?

It's an attachment disorder. She found a new attachment.  I triggered her fear of abandonment. A man with no boundaries ( no children of his own either, and he's not coping with my kids now ) and he thought she was victim and saving her from a husband that was bad. No qualms with walking into my marriage. She was devaluating me to him. She also clearly had a hallucination once, and I could be wrong here I thought that BPD can have hallucinatory episodes?

Either way, It's not a gamble I would take. It's 50/50 and it's up to the professionals to diagnose. If we change our attitudes and ways it's win-win. If anything at the very least, you become indifferent to behaviors and you feel better, it's less triggering for you.  Anyways, I wish the best outcome for you and your young family  

[KateCat]

She also clearly had a hallucination once, and I could be wrong here I thought that BPD can have hallucinatory episodes?

Yes, Mutt, I think this is quite true, and I've seen it reported many times by "nons" here. When my husband was working with a psychiatrist toward diagnosis, the psychiatrist would not diagnose him with schizophrenia until she had been able to assess his psychosis state over many months. It seems that many people under great stress or with major depression can experience periods of psychosis.

[Indyan]

When my husband was working with a psychiatrist toward diagnosis, the psychiatrist would not diagnose him with schizophrenia until she had been able to assess his psychosis state over many months. It seems that many people under great stress or with major depression can experience periods of psychosis.

How long did it take to get the diagnosis?

Was it difficult to get you husband to see a doctor?

What symptoms did he have (if you don't mind me asking)?

How is he now?

[Mutt]

It's an attachment disorder. She found a new attachment.  I triggered her fear of abandonment. A man with no boundaries ( no children of his own either, and he's not coping with my kids now ) and he thought she was victim and saving her from a husband that was bad. Yes, that's also how it began between him and me. He was the victim of his ex... .I'm sorry you had to go through all this. No qualms with walking into my marriage. She was devaluating me to him. She also clearly had a hallucination once, and I could be wrong here I thought that BPD can have hallucinatory episodes? What sort of hallucination? If I got things right, hallucinations are a sign of psychosis, but maybe Katecat will help better on this... .



Either way, It's not a gamble I would take. It's 50/50 and it's up to the professionals to diagnose. If we change our attitudes and ways it's win-win. If anything at the very least, you become indifferent to behaviors and you feel better, it's less triggering for you.  Definitely, I had to become provocation-proof, or else I'd have gone crazy too. Knowing that it's a symptom of a disorder helped a great deal. Anyways, I wish the best outcome for you and your young family   thanks a lot Mutt, I wish you the best too  

Indyan you proved my point.

[sweetheart]

Hello Indyan et al 

It's been a while for me on here, but that's a thread all of its own, this thread resonates greatly with my personal experiences

Mutt is right Indyan, BPD is primarily an Attachment Disorder, it can vary in severity according to age of onset of symptoms and also if the pwBPD is being continually triggered by someone. Dissociation or a psychotic break is entirely possible if the pwBPD cannot get back to a baseline emotional state before the next dysregulation.

From reading and commenting on your previous posts it appears to me that this is what happened to your SO. It does not sound to me as though your SO has PS because he has demonstrated that he can hold it together when he is away from you. Someone with acute onset PS would not be able to do this. In my personal experience with my dBPDh ( who also has a diagnosis of PS ) my inability to depersonalise my h dysregulations and physically and emotionally step away from his chaos created a 'trigger stacking' effect on him. The consequences of my inability to stop triggering him nearly cost me my marriage and my h nearly died. It got that serious. I WAS TRIGGERING HIM. No one else. The disorder is relational and the initial trauma that a pwBPD once triggered gets re enacted over and over with their SO. That is why Indyan I believe your SO referred to his mother in an exchange with you, my h has often done this when dysregulated. This is where their initial trauma began.

You know Indyan from personal experience and so do I that this is pervasive serious disorder that is absolutely devastating for all involved. What I also know for sure is that when I really stopped engaging in any and all aspects of my h chaos, it took a while, but he has not had a serious dysregulation since July. I started my changes in April    I guess what all this amounts to is what Mutt said about us triggering our SO was spot on, but sometimes it can be really difficult to truly accept that we are continuing to do it even though you might not physically be together.

If you can have a read back over your old posts and see if they can help you explore additional ways to move forward for you and your family.

I have been where you are Indyan and with a young family as I have, dealing with all things BPD is immensely difficult. Try not to loose sight of you and your children, keep making you and them your priority. I know I was lost for a while.


The distinction between BPD and PS is that for a pwBPD psychotic symptoms, like delusional thinking and hallucinations are transient and brief. For a pw Paranoid Schizophrenia these symptoms are fixed and enduring, but can become 'weaker' with age.

[Indyan]

It does not sound to me as though your SO has PS because he has demonstrated that he can hold it together when he is away from you.

Hi Sweetheart, I'm not sure about that.

His father said a month ago that "he was definitely not well" and his sister said "he's not in a position to make decisions".

I have no idea about how he behaves with them, or at work.

However, it's important to emphasize that the chaos started from his stress at work early July. He was the victim there of course, but I supported him as much as I can. But his anguish grew bigger and bigger until it turned into a huge crisis.

I have also come to the conclusion that he reproaches me anything I've done or not done, said or not said. For example he dares say that "I left him when he was feeling bad". I answered that I called him after he left for his sister, looking really desperate (and I had no idea why), to ask how he was and that SHE picked up the phone to say "it's all over". He replied "yeah, you phoned to do me in, just like a pyromaniac."

Yeah, right.

He complained in length that he was still paying for the rent, wrote to the landlord  and told all his family that I was trying to rip him off. When I finally managed to pay last week, he panicked and tried to prove me that it's still his house and said "he never wanted me to pay for the rent".

He doesn't make any sense.

[Mutt]

I guess what all this amounts to is what Mutt said about us triggering our SO was spot on

I lost my marriage before I learned this lesson. It was a hard pill to swallow.

I was the trigger. I thought the dissociative phase was hard. It gets much much harder. You don't want to face a PD in court.

Check the legal board.

[Indyan]

I lost my marriage before I learned this lesson. It was a hard pill to swallow.

I was the trigger. I thought the dissociative phase was hard. It gets much much harder. You don't want to face a PD in court.

Check the legal board.

I don't think I can do anything anymore. I can't be nicer than I am, or more patient, or less clingy... .

OK, when he invited himself for 4 days last week, right after I managed to pay for the rent, I did get angry.

But in the end, I let go and let him stay at the house (I had no choice). We had a quite good time, but I did feel resentful and I told him.

It's impossible to keep everything to myself, all the time. I need to tell him sometimes... .

I have no hope left, and I don't know if I have any love left, sadly.

The only thing that might help me regain a tiny bit of hope back would be if he went back to the psy centre, and I told him. He said he would go back as soon as he lives around here again.

I feel I don't care anymore, he will do whatever he wants to do, I won't be able to stop him.

I've stopped wanting to improve things no matter what.

[Mutt]

Indyan, I've been in those shoes and it's really tough. There's no easy way. Either change or it could get ugly. I'm saying this because I've been through this. Do whatever is best for mom and baby   If a choice is that you don't have it in you. I understand. I just want you to know that it is difficult to accept that sometimes we are the trigger. I really struggled with that. I understand and think of you no less. It happens our SO's get the best of us.

[Indyan]

Either change or it could get ugly.

Change in what way? I don't get it, sorry.

[sweetheart]

Hi again,

Indyan if your h is holding down a job, to me it is unlikely that he has PS.  For what it's worth though for me the diagnosis is not what's important here. What is are our responses to our SO behaviours and how we choose to deal with what is happening as a result of this.

Mutt  

I had to face the eyes of an entire community mental health team for about six months before they realised what my h was saying about me was part of his disorder and chaotic thinking. I know that from personal experience that my h created destruction and chaos wherever he went. When he was dysregulated he would phone the police on me saying I was evil and a bad mother  that I was stealing his money, keeping his medications from him. It took a while for the police to realise that he was unwell. On my part keeping quiet, saying absolutely nothing was so so hard. Being on here helped me do this. He recorded me when I spoke and on and on. The paranoia and dysregulation created from me initially triggering him was absolutely devastating.

[Mutt]

Either change or it could get ugly.

Change in what way? I don't get it, sorry.

If you're triggering him and I think you said you're separated or living apart? Perhaps work on some ways to work on your triggers. It took me awhile but when my ex was projecting it's not something personal, depersonalize and become indifferent. That's a good start.

[Indyan]

Hi again,

Indyan if your h is holding down a job, to me it is unlikely that he has PS.  For what it's worth though for me the diagnosis is not what's important here. What is are our responses to our SO behaviours and how we choose to deal with what is happening as a result of this.

Mutt  

I had to face the eyes of an entire community mental health team for about six months before they realised what my h was saying about me was part of his disorder and chaotic thinking. I know that from personal experience that my h created destruction and chaos wherever he went. When he was dysregulated he would phone the police on me saying I was evil and a bad mother  that I was stealing his money, keeping his medications from him. It took a while for the police to realise that he was unwell. On my part keeping quiet, saying absolutely nothing was so so hard. Being on here helped me do this. He recorded me when I spoke and on and on. The paranoia and dysregulation created from me initially triggering him was absolutely devastating.

He was never able to keep a job. Keeping this one (for the sake of his baby he says) has demanded a great deal of effort - and the price has been our relationship.

He too called the police, saying I was physically abusive (?) but when the police came they saw he was very agitated and I was calmly nursing baby on the sofa.

He's recorded me (himself actually begging me to "leave him alone" about 50 times... .

He's been very weird for about one month (around MC time), emotionless, not looking in the eyes, very cold.

Not distant, freezing cold, which was something new.

To me the diagnosis is essential actually, because the therapist told me "he needed treatment urgently to stop being delirious".

[Indyan]

If you're triggering him and I think you said you're separated or living apart? Perhaps work on some ways to work on your triggers. It took me awhile but when my ex was projecting it's not something personal, depersonalize and become indifferent. That's a good start.

I've noticed that I now deal quite well with his emails and texts (actually not reacting has proved efficient - he doesn't send many threatening messages anymore), but I found hard to remain calm when he was here.

Especially that his behaviour was soo different from the last 2 months, and he acted as if everything was normal! My D10 too had a shock... .

All this is really hard. I realize that I manage to not respond BECAUSE I CARE LESS AND LESS. The less I love him, the less I react.

It's all very sad  :'(

[sweetheart]

Indyan for now it is good that while all of this confusion and uncertainty is still going on for your ex, that you are able to live separately with your children ( I understand that this is not what you wanted to happen ). Establishing  boundaries for you and your family will be essential to ensure the chaos of his illness does not impact negatively on your children and of course you.  You have made a great start.

His diagnosis is not something you have any control over and is not something you can influence.

You can and have started to clarify things like housing, finances and access arrangements with your baby. These are the areas that you can control and will help strengthen you emotionally.

Your own therapy will help you move on with your life both in the short and long term.

The loss of trust and diminishment of feelings of love for someone who once meant everything to you is very very sad. It maybe with time, space and healing that you are able to be together again, but for now try and focus on you and your family.

[sweetheart]

Indyan it is very very sad. 

[Mutt]

Rome wasn't built in a day.

[Indyan]

Thanks Sweetheart and Mutt, it's good to hear truth every now and then, it helps staying focused 

[Mutt]

Thanks Sweetheart and Mutt, it's good to hear truth every now and then, it helps staying focused