Deflecting

[vortex of confusion]

I wasn't sure where to post this. I chose to post here because I thought I would get better feedback than in other places.

Yes, I want to leave but while still living together and figuring things out, I need some ideas on how to handle this. One of the things that my husband does is deflect. If I bring something up that is important to me, he will change the subject, try to pin it on somebody else, or turn it around on me.

My husband has a habit of always being busy. His busy usually involves him playing his online games or reading a book. When the kids and I ask him to do things or help, his stock answer is "In a minute, let me finish this page/battle/whatever." I admit that I will do the same thing. When I tried to talk to him about it yesterday, he turned it around on me and said, "You do it too." Yes, I do but the difference is that I don't feel like I do it every time. And, I don't feel like it takes me 5, 10, or more minutes to respond. This morning, one of the girls asked him for a waffle. He said, "Just a minute". I went and did some laundry and some other stuff and he still hadn't gotten up so I went and did it. Our 5 year old was hungry. It is one thing to ask an older person to wait but we are talking about a hungry 5 year old. I know her and I know how she is.

Anyway, I tried to bring it up again because it is something that makes it very difficult when talking about practical matters. Here is how the conversation went:

Me: Yesterday, I tried to talk to you about how you put people off when asking for your help and you turned it around on me. Yes, I admit that I do sometimes ask you all to wait for a few minutes. The difference is that I don't do it all of the time and I don't expect people to wait a really long time. This morning when DD5 asked you for a waffle you said just a minute and 10 minutes later you still hadn't gotten up.

Him: I had just started a battle in my game. Besides, she didn't seem to mind. The kids never seem to have a problem with it.

Me: So you aren't going to acknowledge that there is a problem.

Him: I am going to disagree with you. I don't see it as a problem. Really, it is a matter of whose eyes you look at it through. It is only a problem through your eyes.

Me: So my opinion doesn't count? What about the times that I ask you for help?

That isn't the exact words but that is the best I can remember given that I was completely floored that he continued to deflect and would not admit that his constant game playing and reading and staying busy and unavailable is a problem. I don't know how to set a boundary with with this. Part of me feels like I should stop asking him for help again. I did that for a long time because of him not following through or putting me off. I am just at a loss as to how to do anything other than ignore it and let it be.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[MissyM]

Well, instead of getting into it is a matter of perception game (which my dBPDh used to play a lot), I just put  things in a phrase of I need. It is important to me that our children feel valued and validated. So, the agreement would be that we both respond to the children's needs that they can't handle themselves within a couple of minutes. The bigger thing would seem that your husband is using technology to medicate and that is a no, no for recovery.  My dBPDh was doing that again recently and we had a little disagreement about it.  He then talked to his sponsor, who told my dBPDh to cut it out, which my dBPDh did.  When something is being used to the exclusion of engaging with one's family, for an addict, then that is a problem.

[vortex of confusion]

Well, instead of getting into it is a matter of perception game (which my dBPDh used to play a lot), I just put  things in a phrase of I need.

I tried again this evening and tried to focus on saying "I feel" and "I need". He tried to turn it around on me again and tell me that I act like he is incapable of doing some things. I got pretty firm and said, "No, that is BS. My problem is that I know that you are capable of doing those things and it makes me mad that you won't do them. If I thought you were incapable, I wouldn't be upset and would take care of it myself. I am mad and angry because you CAN do those things and are very capable." He changed his tune and got that defeated sound and said, "I guess I am just lazy."

It is important to me that our children feel valued and validated. So, the agreement would be that we both respond to the children's needs that they can't handle themselves within a couple of minutes.

This has been an ongoing thing between us that I won't let go for the very reasons that you state. He has gotten better because at least now he will at least acknowledge that he heard them. For the longest time, he wouldn't even do that much. He seems to think that he is doing okay because the kids have not expressed any dissatisfaction about how long he takes. The kids don't usually tell him though. They usually tell me because they are afraid that he will snap at them or be a jerk if they say anything.

The bigger thing would seem that your husband is using technology to medicate and that is a no, no for recovery.  My dBPDh was doing that again recently and we had a little disagreement about it.  He then talked to his sponsor, who told my dBPDh to cut it out, which my dBPDh did.  When something is being used to the exclusion of engaging with one's family, for an addict, then that is a problem.

I tried to express that to him. I told him that I thought he was hiding in his game as a way of escaping us. He got defensive and said, "You would probably say the same thing if I was reading a book." And I told him that he was right. I would say that because I feel like he is using his books and the computer as a way to escape. It is just a substitute for the sex addiction. He disagreed and said, "Or maybe it is just me staying busy so I don't fall asleep." He can't sit and talk to us or be with us without falling asleep. He says he can't just sit around and watch TV. I couldn't seem to find a way to communicate that I don't want him to just sit and watch TV. I want him to be available to us. It is frustrating for me because I don't know how to communicate that a person can still do his/her own thing and still be available. Even when he is doing nothing, he still isn't available. When I try to communicate this to him, I feel like I come across as demanding and impossible to please.

[MissyM]

He tried to turn it around on me again and tell me that I act like he is incapable of doing some things. I got pretty firm and said, "No, that is BS. My problem is that I know that you are capable of doing those things and it makes me mad that you won't do them. If I thought you were incapable, I wouldn't be upset and would take care of it myself. I am mad and angry because you CAN do those things and are very capable." He changed his tune and got that defeated sound and said, "I guess I am just lazy."

Yes, it takes a long time for them to recognize that it isachoice that they are making.  Not that it is something they can't handle but a choice that they make to disconnect.  It sounds like you handled the part on your end, very well.  Is he clear that he is making the choice to ignore his children's needs?

He has gotten better because at least now he will at least acknowledge that he heard them. For the longest time, he wouldn't even do that much. He seems to think that he is doing okay because the kids have not expressed any dissatisfaction about how long he takes.

Is he open to discussing parenting, in general?  Then maybe it can just be a parenting discussion about the children needing some attention from him.  This has been a focus for my dBPDh in recovery, being a better father and that is really the reason he wants to do recovery.  He doesn't want to pass this crap on down to the kids.

[vortex of confusion]

Yes, it takes a long time for them to recognize that it isachoice that they are making.  Not that it is something they can't handle but a choice that they make to disconnect.  It sounds like you handled the part on your end, very well.  Is he clear that he is making the choice to ignore his children's needs?

I have not yet found a way to make it clear that he is ignoring his children's needs. When I bring it up, he deflects and tries to twist it around and talk about how much progress he has made. Yes, he has made progress and I try to validate that but it isn't enough. Sure, he can cook them food and get stuff for them but he rarely sits down and talks to them or plays with them or engages with them. I spent a lot of the weekend making them accessories for their toys (sewing doll pillows and beds). While I was crafting with them, he was on his computer. Yes, he did cook dinner but he is doing nothing to address their emotional needs. Our oldest (13) has become very cynical. She will talk to her dad but he frustrates her.

Is he open to discussing parenting, in general?  Then maybe it can just be a parenting discussion about the children needing some attention from him.  This has been a focus for my dBPDh in recovery, being a better father and that is really the reason he wants to do recovery.  He doesn't want to pass this crap on down to the kids.

Sure, he is open to discussing it. There was quite a long time when I was a moderator on a parenting discussion list. I have written all kinds of blog posts about parenting and parenting stuff. He has read a lot of what I have written. We have spent years talking about parenting and parenting techniques. We used to watch Super Nanny as a way to spark discussion about things we did and didn't want to do with our kids. It feels like all of those years of us talking about this stuff is relatively useless. He still acts like one of the kids and can't seem to see why I would have a problem with anything. It seems to me like he is gauging things based on the kids' reactions. There are a lot of times when the kids are more grown up than him. I recently found a podcast about parenting that he really likes. He has been listening to it but I am not really seeing much change. I am trying to be patient because I know that changes do not happen over night.

I am trying to stop the cycle where he will try for a bit, make a bunch of improvements, and then get lazy and go right back to the way things used to be.

[formflier]

 

Why don't you try to schedule time for him to be the "house guy"... .and then schedule time for you to do "house chores".

So... when it's his time... .no games or messing around... .he's on duty... making waffles... and all that.

Split up the times evenly... .and let him have first pick of times.

Or... if/when he pitches a fit... .allow him to split up the times... .but you get to pick your half first.



doing it that way generally keeps the "splitter"... .fairer...

[Mr. Solo]

Vortex,

Reading that makes my heart sink. I went through three years of that crap with my dBPDw. I would work and come home to find my dBPDw off in our back room chain smoking and being on her phone or laptop. It would be 8pm and the kids hadn't eaten anything except for what they could get and prepare themselves. They hadn't been made to do their homework on school nights. No clothes had been washed. Basically, it was obvious my wife had not done a thing or paid any attention whatsoever to our children. Well, guess what? I had to figure out dinner. I had to wash clothes. I had to get them to do their homework. Then I had to put them to bed. If they were not going to sleep as expected, guess who had to go deal with it every time? My wife, some days, literally did NOTHING but smoke, talk on the phone, text, play Candy Crush, play Words With Friends, get on Facebook, etc. And after I put the kids to bed she would continue to be in her own little world. That's if she stayed home. For a while, she left every night when I put the kids to bed. She was out clubbing with an alcoholic friend of ours every night. So, finally, I got tired. I was worn out in every way imaginable. When I confronted her about all of this, she went in to the crazy-making and projection. She accused me of doing what she was doing and was very adamant about the fact I must have memory loss or something. She also went around to everyone telling them I was nuts. Eventually, believe it or not, I started to doubt my self. I thought maybe there was something wrong with me. By the end, there probably was something wrong with me. I may have been nuts. That's how good she was at what she did. She used the excuses your husband apparently is using. It is like no matter what you can never pin them down on anything. They are so self-absorbed at that point it is almost unbelievable. I saw my wife put herself, and even some of her friends, ahead of our children. Forget about me. She did this to our children. She even used our children as pawns in her mind games with me. That's how outrageously selfish she got the last six months before she left.

In other words, I understand how you feel. It is so frustrating and painful. Just try to stay tethered to what is real. They will manipulate you by changing facts around (maybe not even consciously). Try to stay confident in yourself enough to believe your gut and trust what you have perceived as the true story.

This message board has been a HUGE HELP. Just to read the stories and see how people with BPD do and say the same things to a certain extent. It helped me realize I wasn't the one in La La Land. Just knowing that has done a lot of good.

[MissyM]

I am trying to stop the cycle where he will try for a bit, make a bunch of improvements, and then get lazy and go right back to the way things used to be.

I recognize this one!  I mention it when it starts to happen again. Although what happens is much smaller than it was before.  Right now it is working that it is further and further apart and the episodes are less and less intense.  The phrase the treatment center said to use with my dBPDh was to gently touch him and tell him I noticed that he was distancing himself again, and that I would appreciate him reengaging with me and the kids.  I wish I could say I have handled it that nicely every time!   But I definitely haven't, LOL.  I am human and get frustrated too.  I am nicer about it than I used to be and I work really hard in letting him deal with the kids more often, without trying to fix what he does.   The kids have also been in therapy, so they are better at stating their needs to their Dad.   Is your dBPDh still going to 12 step meetings?  Does he have a sponsor?  A therapist?

[waverider]

Been through this and still am. It is one of the things that is on the back burner and I am waiting until other core issues are consolidated before I start to roll back on this one. Which is really a life long reinforced behavior.

At the moment I am not going to waste energy trying to push rocks uphiil. It is hard work, and as you say when you stop pushing there is no momentum and it stops.

Is it laziness? I  think it is something more fundamental than that, it is just not important to them. The believe they will do it soon, but nothing triggers the soon. Soon seems to permanently fixed in the future and not transitioning into the now.

Until my partner learns more about personal ownership, structuring her day, and responsibility, I am not going to waste too much energy on this. It is still frustrating though.

[parisian]

Deflecting and dismissing.

Mine was a master at both.

The message was 'I don't want to talk about that'.

I once asked my exBPDgf who the name of a particular co-worker was, after my exBPDgf narrowly missed being hit with a sexual harrassment claim from the co-worker, on account of being drunk and misbehaving at her work function. She dismissed it by suggesting the incident was a while ago, implying it was so long ago it was now irrelevant who the person was. When I then said that she had just dismissed me, she did exactly the same thing again by saying 'oh they live in another town now'. So I still was not given the person's name. I asked because I thought she had actually caught up socially with that co-worker in the last 6 months.

If I tried to discuss how her behaviour had made me feel, she deflected it by saying I upset her by raising those issues.

[vortex of confusion]

Why don't you try to schedule time for him to be the "house guy"... .and then schedule time for you to do "house chores".

So... when it's his time... .no games or messing around... .he's on duty... making waffles... and all that.

Split up the times evenly... .and let him have first pick of times.

Or... if/when he pitches a fit... .allow him to split up the times... .but you get to pick your half first.



doing it that way generally keeps the "splitter"... .fairer...

Sundays are his days to be on duty because I work on Sundays. Theoretically, he is supposed to be the go to parent for the kids on Sundays, especially in the mornings. Most nights are mine because he has to get up way earlier than I do. I am thankful that he at least tries to be on duty. The problem is that even when he is on duty, he is on his computer. Last night, he tried to put the kids to bed. Our 5 year old refuses to go to sleep if he is in their room. She will wait until he falls asleep, which he almost always does and then she will come and get me. How does she put it? ":)ad is stinky and stinks up the room."

I don't even care if the time is even. I will gladly do the lion's share. My problem is that even when he is on duty, he is just kind of there. For example, I came home from work last night and was greeted by the kids. One needed help getting food. One needed help finding a band aid. And one needed help with the computer. He was sitting in his recliner sound asleep. While I was taking care of the kids, he woke up, got himself something to eat and didn't say a word to me. I tried to say something to him about it and I got, "I had only been asleep for about 20 minutes. I don't know why the kids didn't wake me up." And then he proceeded to do the whole apologizing, whipped puppy act. That conversation came out of him asking how I was doing. I initially said that I was fine but then he was all, "You seem quiet, what is wrong?" I told him that I was tired and frustrated. I told him how frustrating it is for me to come home from work and be greeted like that.

I have found that the kids would rather wait for me than have dad do stuff for them. He gets pi$$y with them. I can be in the middle of doing my paying online teaching job while he is playing a game. The kids will ask me and I will give them the choice to ask dad or wait and extended period of time. They would rather wait the extended period of time.

He doesn't pitch fits. He just agrees to whatever and then conveniently forgets or loses track of time or gets pi$$y. God forbid I say anything or he will act like the victim. He will say stuff like, "I was going to do that. You didn't even give me a chance." Um, there have been times when I have waited several days for him to do stuff.

[vortex of confusion]

 The kids have also been in therapy, so they are better at stating their needs to their Dad.   Is your dBPDh still going to 12 step meetings?  Does he have a sponsor?  A therapist?

I think my kids and I could both benefit from therapy but there is no money for it as the kids and I do not have health insurance and he does. He can go see a T and only have to pay a small copay. I do my best to try to help the kids navigate things with their dad but it isn't always easy.

Yes, he is still doing the 12 steps. I think he finally made it past step 4 and is supposed to be working on step 5 the next time he gets to meet with his sponsor. After I mentioned some of the things you shared with me, he changed sponsors. He says this sponsor is a much better fit for him. I can't really tell though because I don't really see any difference. He has a therapist but has only been to see this one once. He had a different one that he saw 2 or 3 times before she had to let her practice go. He switched to the new one. He saw her once and says she is a much better fit for him but he has made no effort to schedule another appointment.

[vortex of confusion]

Been through this and still am. It is one of the things that is on the back burner and I am waiting until other core issues are consolidated before I start to roll back on this one. Which is really a life long reinforced behavior.

Thanks for the reminder! I feel like this issue is making it difficult to deal with all of the other issues because I don't feel like I can express a need or do anything without running into the deflecting and brick walls. I am not even sure how to explain it. Maybe I am missing something in how I am approaching this.

Is it laziness? I  think it is something more fundamental than that, it is just not important to them. The believe they will do it soon, but nothing triggers the soon. Soon seems to permanently fixed in the future and not transitioning into the now.

I have had that feeling for a while. The only things that seem to be important to him are his games and his books. Everything else seems secondary. I have tried to communicate that I don't feel important to him. He doesn't understand why I would feel that way. He doesn't understand why a wife would have a problem with a grown man that spends all of his time on a computer game and then acts like a child when he is asked to help and contribute to the household. I have even tried to approach it as, "Look, this isn't about our relationship. This is about basic responsibilities as an adult."

Until my partner learns more about personal ownership, structuring her day, and responsibility, I am not going to waste too much energy on this. It is still frustrating though.

I don't see my partner learning about those things because he does NOT see a problem with the amount of time he spends gaming. He cannot and will not take personal ownership of things because he is too busy deflecting and blaming other things and throwing out red herrings.

[frizz]

Oh man. I know exactly what you're talking about with the deflection. The closest I can get to my BPDgf acknowledging an issue is "we both do X", often followed by redirecting the conversation to how I never take responsibility for my own actions, literally in the same breath. It drives me nuts.

I have had to use Radical Acceptance on this one. I expect her to not call me names or hit me, and I'll hold her accountable for that, but this behavior is so deeply rooted that she can't even recognize when it happens. I just bring up an issue, then I drop it with "just letting you know that bothered me" to sort of put out the argument. At least I've put the bug in her ear. She can do what she wants with it.

[vortex of confusion]

Oh man. I know exactly what you're talking about with the deflection. The closest I can get to my BPDgf acknowledging an issue is "we both do X", often followed by redirecting the conversation to how I never take responsibility for my own actions, literally in the same breath. It drives me nuts.

I have had to use Radical Acceptance on this one. I expect her to not call me names or hit me, and I'll hold her accountable for that, but this behavior is so deeply rooted that she can't even recognize when it happens. I just bring up an issue, then I drop it with "just letting you know that bothered me" to sort of put out the argument. At least I've put the bug in her ear. She can do what she wants with it.

I don't feel like I can do radical acceptance on this one. The reason is that our kids have started exhibiting this same behavior and it has started a circular wave of BS. If I tell one kid to knock something off, the default thing is to deflect or make excuses. Yes, it is typical kid behavior. The problem is that he is doing it to them and around them so he is reinforcing the behavior with the kids. If I say something to him, I get "I was going to do it" or "Why does it matter, the kids weren't bothered?" If I say something to the kids, I get, ":)ad/sister does it."

I don't feel like I am able to even put a bug in his ear. If I say something bothers me, I get a whole bunch of crap about it. I say his continual gaming/being checked out bothers me and I get excuses and a bunch of BS about how I am the only one that has a problem with it.

[MissyM]

don't feel like I can do radical acceptance on this one.

And I personally don't feel you should.  Hopefully, he will begin to see that he is addicted to gaming.  The denial and defensiveness over his gaming, as well as how much he ignores his family for it are all red flags.  As for insurance, why does he have insurance and no one else?  If his place of employment offers insurance, is there a way to get all of you on it?  Therapy has really helped my children and myself.

[frizz]

don't feel like I can do radical acceptance on this one

Definitely not the issue of him being irresponsible with his household duties and the kids. That is serious and needs to be addressed, I agree.

The deflection itself, though, I have found is just a part of life. It's everything from gross neglect of self and others to using a hot pad instead of putting a scalding pot directly on the counter.  On the larger issues, we have the benefit of counseling. You're in a really tough spot with the issue you're dealing with.

[123Phoebe]

I don't feel like I can do radical acceptance on this one. The reason is that our kids have started exhibiting this same behavior and it has started a circular wave of BS.

VOC, this^^ is what you indeed do need to radically accept; that this is all happening before your eyes and find ways to curtail it, possibly without his input.

Staying with the heart of a leaver probably isn't helping or making things easier.  That's not a judgment on you, I experienced similar, staying in a marriage that I wanted out of!  So many things he did drove me absolutely crazy, yet there I stayed expecting HIM to be different

This stuff is not easy and it would be nice to have your husband hold the same values that you do about raising the children.  He doesn't.  So what can you do?  Sounds like you might have to do it all, with your children's best interest at heart.  Accept it and work on leaving, if that's where you're ultimately headed.

You cannot change him.  He will have to want to change himself.

[vortex of confusion]

I don't feel like I can do radical acceptance on this one. The reason is that our kids have started exhibiting this same behavior and it has started a circular wave of BS.

VOC, this^^ is what you indeed do need to radically accept; that this is all happening before your eyes and find ways to curtail it, possibly without his input.

Staying with the heart of a leaver probably isn't helping or making things easier.  That's not a judgment on you, I experienced similar, staying in a marriage that I wanted out of!  So many things he did drove me absolutely crazy, yet there I stayed expecting HIM to be different

This stuff is not easy and it would be nice to have your husband hold the same values that you do about raising the children.  He doesn't.  So what can you do?  Sounds like you might have to do it all, with your children's best interest at heart.  Accept it and work on leaving, if that's where you're ultimately headed.

You cannot change him.  He will have to want to change himself.

I don't expect him to be different. After 18 years, I know damn good and well that he is who he is and there is nothing that I can do about it. Nothing will ever change about him. I know this.

I am trying to find ways to cope with this stuff while I figure out the best way out of this relationship. As long as we are living under the same roof, I have to find healthy ways of coping with him as he is. I don't want to make things worse. If I were to post on the leaving forum, I would have a bunch of people telling me to leave and get out rather than finding healthier ways of dealing with this stuff.

[ColdEthyl]

This is also a very frustrating thing for me as well. But, the more you push them, the more they dig their heels in, Vortex. It doesn't help. My dBPDh is the King of "later".

Waverider Quote:

"Is it laziness? I  think it is something more fundamental than that, it is just not important to them. The believe they will do it soon, but nothing triggers the soon. Soon seems to permanently fixed in the future and not transitioning into the now."

You have to remember, there are some basics about them that are always in play:

1. They are naturally very selfish.

2. They are afraid of failure, so trying something with that possibility is going to almost never happen.

3. The more you try to push, especially if you are using "you language" (You need to do this... .I'm tired of you doing that) puts them on the defensive. That's when you get deflection, dysregulation, etc.

4. Waverider is correct. They honestly think they will 'do it' later, and 'later' is easy to keep saying over and over and over.

My husband fades his family for months at a time. What happens is they call, he ignores the first call. He will "call them back later". "later" turns into days, and weeks. By then, he's feeling guilty about fading them, and the longer he goes, the harder it is to make that call. In his mind, they are judging him up and down. In reality, he's judging himself. This is a cycle of behavior he has done for YEARS.

I've tried to help him with this, but do no avail. All I do at this point is keep in contact with his family, and explain the anxiety/depression issue. I've tried to talk about BPD with them, but they would rather put their heads in the sand about it.

[Cat Familiar]

You mention that your husband doesn't seem to accept that he is responsible for "basic responsibilities as an adult" and that he acts like a child when he's expected to help.

I totally understand that strategy. My husband employs that frequently with great success. Often I will anticipate his response and not even bother to ask him to help out. And my anger and frustration just builds.

He also has a variant on this strategy--incompetence. I wonder how a man can have three previous marriages and never have learned jack about home maintenance. I will show him how to do something simple and either from being in a hurry, not paying attention, or what I assume is feeling like the task is "beneath him"--he will f*#k it up (seemingly deliberately) so that I never ask him again.

I wonder how much is calculated and how much derives from a negative self image.

[ColdEthyl]

You have answered your own question, dear.

You cannot expect him to change for you while you are working on your exit strategy. (you are not trying to say that, I know but in essence that is the only thing that would make life easier and more fair for you at this point)

Deal with everything yourself, live your life like he isn't there until you leave. You are deflated and frustrated because of expectations that are not going to be met. They haven't been met for you for a long time.

I don't feel like I can do radical acceptance on this one. The reason is that our kids have started exhibiting this same behavior and it has started a circular wave of BS.

VOC, this^^ is what you indeed do need to radically accept; that this is all happening before your eyes and find ways to curtail it, possibly without his input.

Staying with the heart of a leaver probably isn't helping or making things easier.  That's not a judgment on you, I experienced similar, staying in a marriage that I wanted out of!  So many things he did drove me absolutely crazy, yet there I stayed expecting HIM to be different

This stuff is not easy and it would be nice to have your husband hold the same values that you do about raising the children.  He doesn't.  So what can you do?  Sounds like you might have to do it all, with your children's best interest at heart.  Accept it and work on leaving, if that's where you're ultimately headed.

You cannot change him.  He will have to want to change himself.

I don't expect him to be different. After 18 years, I know damn good and well that he is who he is and there is nothing that I can do about it. Nothing will ever change about him. I know this.

I am trying to find ways to cope with this stuff while I figure out the best way out of this relationship. As long as we are living under the same roof, I have to find healthy ways of coping with him as he is. I don't want to make things worse. If I were to post on the leaving forum, I would have a bunch of people telling me to leave and get out rather than finding healthier ways of dealing with this stuff.

[ColdEthyl]

@Cat I wonder if it depends on the pwBPD. My husband does these things too but he does try. He did some household chores this weekend, and one of them he couldn't complete (we have some sort of issue with our sewer line, his snaking did not solve the problem) and he said how very bad the day was because he was such a failure. I told him that he tries his best, and I was proud of him for trying. All anyone can ask any of us to do is try our best and he did that. After a few times over the course of the day of him repeating pretty much he was angry at himself for not being able to do what he wanted, he settled down and his mood got better.

You mention that your husband doesn't seem to accept that he is responsible for "basic responsibilities as an adult" and that he acts like a child when he's expected to help.

I totally understand that strategy. My husband employs that frequently with great success. Often I will anticipate his response and not even bother to ask him to help out. And my anger and frustration just builds.

He also has a variant on this strategy--incompetence. I wonder how a man can have three previous marriages and never have learned jack about home maintenance. I will show him how to do something simple and either from being in a hurry, not paying attention, or what I assume is feeling like the task is "beneath him"--he will f*#k it up (seemingly deliberately) so that I never ask him again.

I wonder how much is calculated and how much derives from a negative self image.

[vortex of confusion]

He also has a variant on this strategy--incompetence. I wonder how a man can have three previous marriages and never have learned jack about home maintenance. I will show him how to do something simple and either from being in a hurry, not paying attention, or what I assume is feeling like the task is "beneath him"--he will f*#k it up (seemingly deliberately) so that I never ask him again.

I have that as well. I think his biggest mess up was when he tried to fix something in the attic. He was in a hurry and didn't watch his step so he stepped right through the ceiling. I still laugh at the whole thing. I know accidents happen but it was one of those things where I had it in the back of my mind that maybe he subconciously did it deliberately (is that even possible). I ended up going up into the attic and dealing with the repair myself.

[Cat Familiar]

This "later" business is very frustrating. I've never done his laundry and until we lived together, I had no clue how disorganized or forgetful or oblivious he was.

Then when he moved in, every time I went to throw a load in the washer, there would be his clothes, wet and molding from neglect. Or the dryer would be full for days with his stuff.

At first I would take care of it--fold the clothes in the drier and leave them for him to put away. Over time when this happened regularly I started to get resentful, particularly when he would get irritated that he "was in my way again" and would get pi$$y and wouldn't even be appreciative that I did something for him.

He was too busy reading his Buddhism books I guess to participate in the mundane details of life.

[vortex of confusion]

You have answered your own question, dear.

You cannot expect him to change for you while you are working on your exit strategy. (you are not trying to say that, I know but in essence that is the only thing that would make life easier and more fair for you at this point)

Deal with everything yourself, live your life like he isn't there until you leave. You are deflated and frustrated because of expectations that are not going to be met. They haven't been met for you for a long time.

My needs have not been met or even addressed in a really, really long time.

Even if I wasn't working on an exit strategy, he wouldn't change. I have tried to show him that I am totally committed to him for years. I have tried to learn new communication strategies. I have tried to learn ways to spice things up. I have tied myself up in knots trying to make life better for the kids and everyone else. I feel like you are saying that maybe things would be different if I wasn't working on an exit strategy. I didn't start thinking about an exit strategy until he had repeatedly shown me that he is not interested in doing anything regarding our relationship. He has told me things like:

-I can't be bothered with working on our relationship.

-I can only focus on my recovery.

-You are not my priority. I didn't figure you into the equation.

Now that I am thinking about leaving and trying to find an exit strategy, it is my fault because I am thinking about an exit strategy. It is my fault once again because why would he bother doing anything if I am going to leave anyway? It feels like one excuse is as good as another.

[vortex of confusion]

At first I would take care of it--fold the clothes in the drier and leave them for him to put away. Over time when this happened regularly I started to get resentful, particularly when he would get irritated that he "was in my way again" and would get pi$$y and wouldn't even be appreciative that I did something for him.

I used to wash all of our clothes together. I did that for years. At some point, he got mad at me because I didn't hang his clothes up just right. So, I stopped doing his laundry. He puts all of his work clothes in a separate hamper and takes care of them himself. I hate it when he folds clothes because he mixes up all of the clothes and I have to go through and resort them. It isn't a big deal. I quietly resort things and put them in the right places. I don't yell at him or complain to him. I thank him for his help and move on. When I do things, it is not uncommon for him to find something that I did wrong. The kids are afraid to try anything for themselves because they are afraid of getting yelled at or nitpicked.

[ColdEthyl]

Nope, it's not your fault at all for having an exit strategy. You have a right to be happy, and do what's right for you. That's why I said  (you are not trying to say that, I know but in essence that is the only thing that would make life easier and more fair for you at this point)

What I'm saying is your frustrations of wanting him to do things he cannot/will not do is only damaging YOU. There's no step-by-step book on this situation. Look, I spent 14 years with my ex husband trying to change him. He wasn't BPD, he was just an Ahole. I was with him another 2 years while I got my ducks in a row to get out. I really do understand where you are coming from. It took me a long time to realize I had to let it go... .the bitterness, the anger. I just just started doing things I would be doing if he wasn't there. It was all on me before that anyways. What difference was it if he is physically present or not?

You have answered your own question, dear.

You cannot expect him to change for you while you are working on your exit strategy. (you are not trying to say that, I know but in essence that is the only thing that would make life easier and more fair for you at this point)

Deal with everything yourself, live your life like he isn't there until you leave. You are deflated and frustrated because of expectations that are not going to be met. They haven't been met for you for a long time.

My needs have not been met or even addressed in a really, really long time.

Even if I wasn't working on an exit strategy, he wouldn't change. I have tried to show him that I am totally committed to him for years. I have tried to learn new communication strategies. I have tried to learn ways to spice things up. I have tied myself up in knots trying to make life better for the kids and everyone else. I feel like you are saying that maybe things would be different if I wasn't working on an exit strategy. I didn't start thinking about an exit strategy until he had repeatedly shown me that he is not interested in doing anything regarding our relationship. He has told me things like:

-I can't be bothered with working on our relationship.

-I can only focus on my recovery.

-You are not my priority. I didn't figure you into the equation.

Now that I am thinking about leaving and trying to find an exit strategy, it is my fault because I am thinking about an exit strategy. It is my fault once again because why would he bother doing anything if I am going to leave anyway? It feels like one excuse is as good as another.

[vortex of confusion]

What difference was it if he is physically present or not?

Good question! For me, I think it goes back to how my kids behave when he is here versus when he isn't. When he isn't here, the girls and I get along pretty well. We joke, we talk, we laugh. When he is here, there is a lot of tension. Oh, and to imitate my five year old, "I don't like daddy. He is stinky. He makes the room stinky." (She has said this on several occasions when he has tried to put them to bed.)

[123Phoebe]

Vortex, use the Tools, use SET and Dearman and everything else you can come up with... . Pack your toolbox up nice and full.  The interesting thing about the Lessons and techniques learned here, is that we have to mean them.  We use them with an open heart and mind, to connect with ourselves, our values, our children, our SO's whether staying or leaving.  If we're closed off, they're not going to work because we're not being authentic.  Our body language speaks volumes, eye contact, tone of voice, fidgeting; we express ourselves in all kinds of ways.

Can you work the tools with your children's best interest at heart?  When it's about DD5's breakfast, keep the conversation on topic.

Me: Yesterday, I tried to talk to you about how you put people off when asking for your help and you turned it around on me. Yes, I admit that I do sometimes ask you all to wait for a few minutes. The difference is that I don't do it all of the time and I don't expect people to wait a really long time. This morning when DD5 asked you for a waffle you said just a minute and 10 minutes later you still hadn't gotten up.

Him: I had just started a battle in my game. Besides, she didn't seem to mind. The kids never seem to have a problem with it.

Me: So you aren't going to acknowledge that there is a problem.

Him: I am going to disagree with you. I don't see it as a problem. Really, it is a matter of whose eyes you look at it through. It is only a problem through your eyes.

Me: So my opinion doesn't count? What about the times that I ask you for help?

Can you figure out a way to have kept this conversation specifically about DD5's breakfast?

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex, use the Tools, use SET and Dearman and everything else you can come up with... . Pack your toolbox up nice and full.  The interesting thing about the Lessons and techniques learned here, is that we have to mean them.  We use them with an open heart and mind, to connect with ourselves, our values, our children, our SO's whether staying or leaving.  If we're closed off, they're not going to work because we're not being authentic.  Our body language speaks volumes, eye contact, tone of voice, fidgeting; we express ourselves in all kinds of ways.

Can you work the tools with your children's best interest at heart?  When it's about DD5's breakfast, keep the conversation on topic.

I feel like the only thing that I could have said was, "You are right. It didn't bother her so it wasn't a problem." If I would have tried to explain that she is 5 and waiting that long for food could have led her to melt down, then he would have referred back to the fact that she didn't have a problem with it. I try to bring things up and he wants specific times and examples. But, when I give specific times and examples, then I am holding on to things and not forgetting anything.

And yes, I realize that I have hit a mental road block that I can't seem to get beyond.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

I have that as well. I think his biggest mess up was when he tried to fix something in the attic. He was in a hurry and didn't watch his step so he stepped right through the ceiling. I still laugh at the whole thing. I know accidents happen but it was one of those things where I had it in the back of my mind that maybe he subconciously did it deliberately (is that even possible). I ended up going up into the attic and dealing with the repair myself.


I don't know if I'm doing the quote thing correctly, Vortex, but I love your story.

Just watching my husband sometimes when he feels expected (by me) to do something, it seems like he gets kind of frantic and angry and doesn't pay much attention to what he's doing. I wish he could just slow down when he gets anxious and do things "mindfully" like the Buddhists teach.

We recently built a garage and his truck is a tight fit through the middle garage door. In

addition, he wants to back it in, and it's kind of a tough arc to make from the driveway.

The first hundred times he tried, he'd back up fast, then go forward again, trying to get lined up and then take another run at it and not get the angle right, then go forward fast again, then back up again, go forward, back up, and finally he'd get it right. All the while, he'd be criticizing himself for not knowing how to do it right.

I tried to tell him that it's just mathematics--visualize the arc that the wheelbase can make and allow for more room at the start.

Well, for reasons I now understand, that communication did not go over well. And it probably really pissed him off when he saw that the first time I parked his truck, I did it in one step--successfully. (He even came out of the house to watch me.)

I told one of my friends about it when he kept doing the same ineffective strategy for months--he's finally learned how to do it more successfully.

Recently, when she was visiting, she pointed to the black tire marks on the driveway and we shared a knowing laugh.

[Grey Kitty]

I don't feel like I can do radical acceptance on this one. The reason is that our kids have started exhibiting this same behavior and it has started a circular wave of BS.

VOC, this^^ is what you indeed do need to radically accept; that this is all happening before your eyes and find ways to curtail it, possibly without his input.

Staying with the heart of a leaver probably isn't helping or making things easier.  That's not a judgment on you, I experienced similar, staying in a marriage that I wanted out of!  So many things he did drove me absolutely crazy, yet there I stayed expecting HIM to be different

This stuff is not easy and it would be nice to have your husband hold the same values that you do about raising the children.  He doesn't.  So what can you do?  Sounds like you might have to do it all, with your children's best interest at heart.  Accept it and work on leaving, if that's where you're ultimately headed.

You cannot change him.  He will have to want to change himself.

I don't expect him to be different. After 18 years, I know damn good and well that he is who he is and there is nothing that I can do about it. Nothing will ever change about him. I know this.

VOC, your actions and your postings don't sound like the acceptance you claim up here ^^^.

Why are you getting in little pissy fights with him over this kind of behavior. Why are you posting about how frustrating and hurtful it is to you. Why are you so desperately looking for a why to get him to change, and give you and your children the attention you legitimately want from him as a husband and a father?

[Cat Familiar]

I try to bring things up and he wants specific times and examples. But, when I give specific times and examples, then I am holding on to things and not forgetting anything.

My husband wants specific times and examples too--he's a retired lawyer. It's damned if you give them specifics and damned if you don't.

[ColdEthyl]

Yep I get that, sadly. My ex was very disengaged with the children and had unreasonable expectations for them. What happened when enough was enough for me and I made my move for a divorce, he was on a bus 3 days later to run home to his mother 4 states away. The children didn't even cry.

Hang in there, sweety. You are doing the best you can.

What difference was it if he is physically present or not?

Good question! For me, I think it goes back to how my kids behave when he is here versus when he isn't. When he isn't here, the girls and I get along pretty well. We joke, we talk, we laugh. When he is here, there is a lot of tension. Oh, and to imitate my five year old, "I don't like daddy. He is stinky. He makes the room stinky." (She has said this on several occasions when he has tried to put them to bed.)

[ColdEthyl]

Same here... .classic BPD move. What my husband says when I come up with specifics is "straw-man arguments"

I try to bring things up and he wants specific times and examples. But, when I give specific times and examples, then I am holding on to things and not forgetting anything.

My husband wants specific times and examples too--he's a retired lawyer. It's damned if you give them specifics and damned if you don't.

[vortex of confusion]

VOC, your actions and your postings don't sound like the acceptance you claim up here ^^^.

Why are you getting in little pissy fights with him over this kind of behavior. Why are you posting about how frustrating and hurtful it is to you. Why are you so desperately looking for a why to get him to change, and give you and your children the attention you legitimately want from him as a husband and a father?

You are right GK!

I honestly can't answer the question as to why I am getting in pissy fights with him. A lot of times, it sneaks up on me. I am posting about it being frustrating and hurtful because it IS frustrating and hurtful. I feel like I am trying to be neutral but most of the time it doesn't come across that way.

I don't feel like I am trying to get him to change. I know that I have tried to get him to change in the past. Now, I feel like I am trying to do damage control.

He says he wants to have a relationship with the kids and he says that he wants to be friends with me. I asked him last night, "If you treated a friend the way you treated me, do you think that you would still have a friend?" His response was, "I don't know. I only have one other friend besides you." I am trying to keep the door open.

In all honesty, I am afraid. It is really as simple as that. I am scared sh**less. I know I need to leave because nothing is going to change but there is still a part of me that hopes that I will find the magic button to make everything better. (I know, it is a bit stupid and naive.)

[Grey Kitty]

In all honesty, I am afraid. It is really as simple as that. I am scared sh**less. I know I need to leave because nothing is going to change but there is still a part of me that hopes that I will find the magic button to make everything better.

 I think that stopping to feel both that fear and that hope is the really really hard work you have to do on your way to radical acceptance.

[MissyM]

In all honesty, I am afraid. It is really as simple as that. I am scared sh**less. I know I need to leave because nothing is going to change but there is still a part of me that hopes that I will find the magic button to make everything better. (I know, it is a bit stupid and naive.)

I can understand that. I feel like a lot of the change occurred for my dBPDh when I became detached and still had boundaries. Around the kids, I am very adamant.  It has helped that my dBPDh really wants to be a good father, that motivates him more than anything else.  This is the reason I married him, that he wanted to be a family man (although he clearly doesn't know how and is learning in recovery).  He has gotten really upset in the past when I have said, I need you to come and help out now.  Now, he is at the point that he offers to help most of the time.  

It is interesting, I notice that taking care of the kids wears my dBPDh out more than anything else.  It seems to take a hurculean effort on his part to do this and it really drains him. (I am giving him a lot of praise right now for the hard work he is doing with the kids).   Does your BPDh find parenting exhausting?  Are there any parameters you could put around his time with the kids? (i.e.) I need for you to watch the kids, feed them by this time, bathe them by this time and put them to bed by this time.  It seems that in the beginning my dBPDh really needed me to be specific because he absolutely had no idea what he was doing.  (well, he still likes me to be very specific)

[waverider]

Vortex knowing you need to leave and fully accepting that, and really letting go of trying to make a change is a hard thing to do. Everything becomes an even bigger trigger. You are trying to adopt two opposing acceptances. What is required to leave, and what is required to stay. Both take equal and opposite commitments. No wonder your head wants to explode of over these frustrating issues.

A lot of these issues with avoidance (as opposed to that due to Avoidance Personality Disorder -APD, usually based in a fear of failure) are based in a complete lack of mindfulness.  The world just flows on by while they exist in their own self imposed bubble. Unless it affects their immediate needs it simply does not rate on the must to do list. Reality detachment in a way.

With kids it is hard as it is hard to teach them to help out when in fact it looks more like they are made to feel more like servants than helpers. That can only create resentment in the kids.

[vortex of confusion]

I can understand that. I feel like a lot of the change occurred for my dBPDh when I became detached and still had boundaries. Around the kids, I am very adamant.  It has helped that my dBPDh really wants to be a good father, that motivates him more than anything else.  This is the reason I married him, that he wanted to be a family man (although he clearly doesn't know how and is learning in recovery).  He has gotten really upset in the past when I have said, I need you to come and help out now.  Now, he is at the point that he offers to help most of the time.

He says that he wants to be a good father and he has admitted to me that he doesn't know how to be one because of the example that his father set. I get that. I understand that. He will ask me for information and perspective so I give it to him. But then, he doesn't put it into practice. It is like he wants to do those things but has absolutely no motivation to do them. It is a case where his words don't match his actions.

It is interesting, I notice that taking care of the kids wears my dBPDh out more than anything else.  It seems to take a hurculean effort on his part to do this and it really drains him. (I am giving him a lot of praise right now for the hard work he is doing with the kids).   Does your BPDh find parenting exhausting?  Are there any parameters you could put around his time with the kids? (i.e.) I need for you to watch the kids, feed them by this time, bathe them by this time and put them to bed by this time.  It seems that in the beginning my dBPDh really needed me to be specific because he absolutely had no idea what he was doing.  (well, he still likes me to be very specific)

I try to be very specific about what should go on when I am at work. I try to make sure that they have something to eat. If I am not able to have something available for him to cook, I'll make sure that there is money so they can stop and get pizza on the way home. I even try to coach the kids to be nicer to dad and help each other out. As a result, there are times when I come home and they have saved everything up for me. The girls have talked to me about it and I have validated their feelings about dad being a jerk to them. He doesn't see it. When they try to communicate with him directly, he gets defensive and will get an attitude. I am not talking about big things either. One of the examples that sticks out is when he got our daughter a drink and it had gross stuff floating on top. She saw the yucky stuff and got grossed out. He tried to argue with her and make her drink it anyway. She came to me so I stepped in and got her a new cup and validated that, yes, there was yucky stuff floating on top.

We have actually made a lot of progress with the kids. At least now, I can leave the house without them freaking out. They will let me nap. Before, if I tried to take a nap, they would come wake me up because they didn't trust dad to help them. But, he would tell the kids, ":)on't wake mom up or she is going to be mad." He was making me out to be a bad guy. I told him that it works better if he tells the kids that I am napping because I need sleep or don't feel well. If the kids know why I am laying down, then they are much more apt to give me a little space. If I am in the house and he is on duty, he has a tendency to fall asleep. If he falls asleep, then everything defaults right back to me. Sometimes, I will wake him up and other times I just let it go. I asked the kids why they will wake me up but not him. Their response, ":)ad is a jerk if we wake him up. You are not."

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex knowing you need to leave and fully accepting that, and really letting go of trying to make a change is a hard thing to do. Everything becomes an even bigger trigger. You are trying to adopt two opposing acceptances. What is required to leave, and what is required to stay. Both take equal and opposite commitments. No wonder your head wants to explode of over these frustrating issues.

A lot of these issues with avoidance (as opposed to that due to Avoidance Personality Disorder -APD, usually based in a fear of failure) are based in a complete lack of mindfulness.  The world just flows on by while they exist in their own self imposed bubble. Unless it affects their immediate needs it simply does not rate on the must to do list. Reality detachment in a way.

With kids it is hard as it is hard to teach them to help out when in fact it looks more like they are made to feel more like servants than helpers. That can only create resentment in the kids.

Thank you waverider!

This helps a lot. I am trying to adopt opposing views. On one hand, I know that the only way that things are going to improve is to leave. On the other hand, I know that I can't just up and leave. I know that I have to be very careful and very deliberate in how I approach everything. Because we have 4 kids together, I want to still be friends and maintain some kind of kind regard towards him for the sake of the kids. I have a lot of conflicting feelings about all of this. Some days, my resolve to leave is really strong and I really don't care one way or the other about much of anything. Then, there are other days when we will get into a conversation about serious stuff and I get confused and don't know what to think.

I feel like I have lost all ability to communicate and think some days.

[Cat Familiar]

This helps a lot. I am trying to adopt opposing views. On one hand, I know that the only way that things are going to improve is to leave. On the other hand, I know that I can't just up and leave. I know that I have to be very careful and very deliberate in how I approach everything. Because we have 4 kids together, I want to still be friends and maintain some kind of kind regard towards him for the sake of the kids. I have a lot of conflicting feelings about all of this. Some days, my resolve to leave is really strong and I really don't care one way or the other about much of anything. Then, there are other days when we will get into a conversation about serious stuff and I get confused and don't know what to think.

I feel like I have lost all ability to communicate and think some days.

You're balancing so much at once--taking every ones' feelings in mind and looking at the bigger picture, while he is just being himself. HUGS!

[vortex of confusion]

Mine says "I'll think about that." Discussion ended. And he never gets back to me with an opinion or statement.

Mine will talk incessantly. Sometimes I think he talks just to hear himself talk. He usually has a statement or an opinion. For the longest time, I would engage him and we would have these circular discussions that wouldn't stop until I agreed with him or saw things his way. It was so unbelievably maddening and so subtle. It wasn't until I found the resources here that I was able to stop, or at least curtail, some of the non-stop talking.

The kids think that if it is quiet, they need to talk. I took our 10 year old somewhere the other day and she apologized to me for not talking much. I told her that she didn't need to apologize. Sometimes it is nice to enjoy somebody's company without all of the talking.

[Cat Familiar]

Mine will talk incessantly. Sometimes I think he talks just to hear himself talk. He usually has a statement or an opinion. For the longest time, I would engage him and we would have these circular discussions that wouldn't stop until I agreed with him or saw things his way. It was so unbelievably maddening and so subtle. It wasn't until I found the resources here that I was able to stop, or at least curtail, some of the non-stop talking.

My ex-husband was like that--another BPD, as was my mother. It's almost as if a differing opinion threatens their sense of self.

[vortex of confusion]

My ex-husband was like that--another BPD, as was my mother. It's almost as if a differing opinion threatens their sense of self.

My mother is kind of like that too. Actually, there are times when I think that my husband is just like my mother.

I can see that. It is really evident when dealing with the kids. The kids seem to have a difficult time with differing opinions. And when their opinion butts up against dad's opinion, it can make things really uncomfortable and I have to stop things and say, "Hey, we are all different people. It is okay for us all to like different things and have different opinions. Life would be boring if we all thought the same way and liked the same things."

[Grey Kitty]

We have actually made a lot of progress with the kids. At least now, I can leave the house without them freaking out. They will let me nap. Before, if I tried to take a nap, they would come wake me up because they didn't trust dad to help them. But, he would tell the kids, ":)on't wake mom up or she is going to be mad." He was making me out to be a bad guy. I told him that it works better if he tells the kids that I am napping because I need sleep or don't feel well. If the kids know why I am laying down, then they are much more apt to give me a little space. If I am in the house and he is on duty, he has a tendency to fall asleep. If he falls asleep, then everything defaults right back to me. Sometimes, I will wake him up and other times I just let it go. I asked the kids why they will wake me up but not him. Their response, ":)ad is a jerk if we wake him up. You are not."

What is the rough timeline for this improvement?

Was it in response to your working on the lessons and tools here?

[vortex of confusion]

What is the rough timeline for this improvement?

Was it in response to your working on the lessons and tools here?

Some of the lessons here helped. A lot of the improvement began a little over a year ago (Sept. 2013) when my dad gave me the money and told me to leave for a week. I had all kinds of excuses and was afraid to leave him with the kids. My dad told me to tell him that I was going to do it and that he had to take a week off of work to take care of the kids. After that, the kids eased up quite a bit because it forced him and the kids to figure things out without me there. In Feb. 2014, I got my part time job outside of the house and that helped too because he was again forced to be with the kids without me around. Neither him nor the kids could run to me. And I have tried to talk to the kids to help them be more understanding of dad while doing a better job of validating their feelings. I used to be pretty bad at validating their negative feelings about dad.

I think the lessons here have helped me most with boundaries with him and the kids. And, I am able to better referee and just tell them all to STOP without a bunch of explanation or BS on my part.

[Grey Kitty]

Hmmm... .it sounds like he *IS* capable of doing better with the kids when he has to then.

There may be room to generate more improvement this way... .?

[MissyM]

Some of the lessons here helped. A lot of the improvement began a little over a year ago (Sept. 2013) when my dad gave me the money and told me to leave for a week. I had all kinds of excuses and was afraid to leave him with the kids. My dad told me to tell him that I was going to do it and that he had to take a week off of work to take care of the kids. After that, the kids eased up quite a bit because it forced him and the kids to figure things out without me there. In Feb. 2014, I got my part time job outside of the house and that helped too because he was again forced to be with the kids without me around. Neither him nor the kids could run to me. And I have tried to talk to the kids to help them be more understanding of dad while doing a better job of validating their feelings. I used to be pretty bad at validating their negative feelings about dad.

I think the lessons here have helped me most with boundaries with him and the kids. And, I am able to better referee and just tell them all to STOP without a bunch of explanation or BS on my part.

Sounds like you have made quite a few changes for improvement in the last year!  So, good for you. 

Sometimes we don't realize change is happening because it is at a glacier speed.  Hopefully keeping on the the track you are going will effect more change.

[waverider]

Because we have 4 kids together, I want to still be friends and maintain some kind of kind regard towards him for the sake of the kids.

This will be very difficult. It is near unheard of to have a smooth negotiated exit with a pwBPD. Invariably the wheels fall off and accusations fly, no matter how considerate you try to be.

[vortex of confusion]

Because we have 4 kids together, I want to still be friends and maintain some kind of kind regard towards him for the sake of the kids.

This will be very difficult. It is near unheard of to have a smooth negotiated exit with a pwBPD. Invariably the wheels fall off and accusations fly, no matter how considerate you try to be.

I know and that is part of what scares me. I have to get my head on a little straighter and figure out how to support myself and four kids. And, I have to figure out how to deal with the house. The kids love their house. Three of our four kids were born here and they can't stand the idea of living anywhere but here. I have to figure out if I am going to need to seek assistance from the women's center. I don't want to go that route but it is an option. I'd rather find a way to negotiate things with him.

More importantly, I want to get the kids in a better place. Our oldest daughter has extreme anxiety and I feel like she might be developing BPD or something. She and I had a long talk last night after everyone else went to bed. Some of the things she said really scared me. She is 13 and says that she feels like she doesn't have a personality.

[Grey Kitty]

  There is one good bit of news for you buried in this dilemma, VOC.

You can work on disengaging from his disorder and behavior, and accepting that he is who he is, and will do what he does.

This work is critical for you to improve living in the house as you are doing it.

It also will be critical for you to do the right thing for yourself and your kids in a divorce/custody dispute.

And the acceptance will also help you decide what is right for you and your children. It will give you the peace, and you can then choose to leave or stay.

The feeling of "being trapped" fades away pretty quickly when you accept exactly what your situation is.

It is VERY hard work. And it is worth it.

[Cat Familiar]

You've certainly got a lot to think about and to manage and plan for the future.

However, I'm wondering if in the meantime, you could get another break somehow. It certainly doesn't seem like your husband has much sense of responsibility for the kid's welfare. I'm just appalled that he places a higher priority on playing his game rather than feeding his hungry children.

But, getting away from him, as you did briefly, seemed to help him realize that he needed to take responsibility. Knowing that you're there to pick up the slack is enabling him to be a teenager--just reading and playing video games while you shoulder all the burdens of your family.

I'm wondering if you could manage to take some time away for yourself--maybe just taking an evening class once a week--something to nurture you. And by doing that, force him to take more responsibility for the kids. As long as you're around, he has no motivation to do anything differently.

I don't have the responsibilities you do, but also having a "teenage" husband, I have gotten so frustrated that I let him know I felt like I was "living with a teenager." It really pissed him off, and he became very resentful about being identified thusly, but it did help him to start trying to be a little more responsible.

[vortex of confusion]

You've certainly got a lot to think about and to manage and plan for the future.

Some days it is too overwhelming to even think about. Some days, it is easier to slip back into my nice little delusional comfort zone.

However, I'm wondering if in the meantime, you could get another break somehow. It certainly doesn't seem like your husband has much sense of responsibility for the kid's welfare. I'm just appalled that he places a higher priority on playing his game rather than feeding his hungry children.

I do have a part time job outside of the house nice. I work three days a week for a total of 12 hours. I absolutely love going to work. I talked to my boss the other day about my 5 year plan, which involves leaving my husband. Today, he approached me and asked if I would be interested in working full time if a position opens up. That made me feel so good and so happy. If I could get a job here and figure out a way to juggle the kids on my own, that would be the answer to all of my prayers.

He will feed them. It is just that they have to wait. Sometimes, he will get up and take care of it quickly but other times he doesn't. His priorities are completely out of whack and nothing that I say or do seems to get through to him that it is not okay to spend that much time on the computer. He will point to my computer use or the kid's computer use as a way to divert the topic. Yes, I do use the computer a lot but I also cook dinner, do dishes, do laundry, clean, pay bills, and a host of other stuff. He did make cookies with the girls while I was at work last night. I think that is the first time he has done anything like that with them.

But, getting away from him, as you did briefly, seemed to help him realize that he needed to take responsibility. Knowing that you're there to pick up the slack is enabling him to be a teenager--just reading and playing video games while you shoulder all the burdens of your family.

That week was really rough for him. There were times when he would try to call or text me because he didn't know what to do or how to handle things.

I'm wondering if you could manage to take some time away for yourself--maybe just taking an evening class once a week--something to nurture you. And by doing that, force him to take more responsibility for the kids. As long as you're around, he has no motivation to do anything differently.

I have been trying to do better at getting out and doing something on my own or even with one of the girls.

I don't have the responsibilities you do, but also having a "teenage" husband, I have gotten so frustrated that I let him know I felt like I was "living with a teenager." It really pissed him off, and he became very resentful about being identified thusly, but it did help him to start trying to be a little more responsible.

I have said all sorts of things, nice and some really down right mean. He will improve for a little while but then usually slip right back into his old habits. That has been the cycle for years. The funny thing is that he had to identify his resentments as part of his 12 step program. He says he has no resentments towards me. That baffles me because I know I can be a pain in the a$$. I don't do it deliberately but I know that I am not perfect and that I can sometimes lose my head and act like a real jerk. I so badly want him to be able to have a more realistic view of me and our relationship. He is so content to act like I am a saint and he is horrible and there is nothing wrong. I understand that it is sometimes easier to hide in a fantasy world but at some point it needs to stop.

[Grey Kitty]

Some days it is too overwhelming to even think about. Some days, it is easier to slip back into my nice little delusional comfort zone.

I know that one. I'm afraid I've gotten to a place where my delusional comfort zone doesn't feel nice anymore. Maybe I don't believe the delusions as well as I used to.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm glad you planted the seed about transitioning into full time employment when that becomes a possibility. In the meantime, it seems like you are totally burned out with your husband's irresponsibility and I totally get it.

The only thing that keeps me sane at times is to make sure I'm being kind and supportive to myself--and I don't have all the responsibilities you do.

I was thinking that since your husband managed to make cookies with your kids, perhaps you could enlist your oldest daughter to think of a meal she would like to have and get dad to help her cook it. That way everybody gets fed and dad learns that he can help and maybe even have fun with the kids.

[Rapt Reader]

This thread has reached its post limit, and has now been locked. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are encouraged to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for understanding