he wants extra overnights around thanks

[momtara]

Ex has the kids Thur-Fri for Thanksgiving and then that weekend, Sat-Sun.  So he asked for them Wed-Sun.  He sometimes is on edge and triggered and I don't want him to be able to say in court - if I ever have to take him - "I can't be that bad, she gave me extra overnights."  I'm thiking I can say Wed-Sat is ok, but not Wed-sun as that's 2 extra overnights.  What do you all think?  I just worry about letting go of boundaries.

[Sluggo]

Momtara,  sorry to hear you going through this... .interested to hear what others say.  Is this the first thanksgiving?

[momtara]

Nope, the second.  I think the kids will be fine the extra time, just worrying about letting a boundary go loose.  If he were normal I would be happy to have a little breathing time.  He doesn't get the kids much - only every other weekend.  I just have to be careful about letting boundaries down.  It sets a precedent.

[Turkish]

It sounds like he is pushing that boundary. Can you word it in the form of a trade, so it's clear that if you give up Wed night, that he trades all day Sunday? You give something up, and so does he, but it's not giving up, it's trading to satisfy both parties.

My Ex doesn't sound as bad as yours, and we have joint custody. I've been working with her to trade some of my holiday time (all holidays are mine this year) in trade for an extra day after on her normal schedule. That way I can take them out of town. She and her family get them on TG and Christmas Eve and morning in exchange for extra time after. I don't know what will happen next year, but I'll worry about it then. If she messes with me, I'll default back to the stipulation "by the book" and she looses that flexibility on my side. By being what I like to call "Joe Carver" (boring, bland, factual, leaving as much emotion as I can out of it), I'm finding that she tends to follow my lead. Your point about triggers is valid, and it won't do me good to trigger her.

I think the courts, if it came to that, like to see parents working together for the good of the kids. Give to get and document.

[momtara]

That's a good idea.

Thinking about it, he is supposed to get them all day Thur and all day Fri (thanksgiving and day after), and then his weekend is Sat-Sun, so maybe I am being too mean about it. 

[ForeverDad]

I've come to learn that "Let's just follow the order" is the safe way.  At first it may be hard to say that, but with practice and usage over time it becomes easier.  Generally when I complained to my lawyer - ex didn't fulfill the second half of our trade, etc - he would gruffly chastise me, ":)on't deviate from the order."

Keep in mind that the court generally doesn't expect you to be nice, it expects you to follow the order in a reasonable manner.  Don't think that by being nice the court will reward you.  You've probably seen this quote before... .The poorly behaving parent seldom gets consequences and the well behaving parent seldom gets credit.

You have often expressed concern about his parenting time.  Yet here you are thinking it's okay to give him more time on a long visit.  Usually he gets 2 days or slightly less. Due to the holiday he will get about 3.5 or 4 days, why are you feeling you need to allow more than the order, after all, it's about 4 days already, isn't it?  Is it that you have a hard time saying, "Let's stick to the order"?  Is it that hard to say No?  The order is there to be used, it's not bad to default to it.  Sure, you can make exceptions but don't guilt yourself into making exceptions.  Sounds like you're not just struggling with him, you're struggling with yourself, time to resolve your issues and be 'okay' with doing what you feel is best and not feeling guilty when following the schedule.

My ex often calls me mean, etc.  That's her using the emotional impact against me.  Your ex isn't so aggressive with demands and emotional denigration.  And you have a decent order.  But you still are having a struggle, torn between being nice and keeping his limited parenting safe.  You.  Look inside.  See it for what it is.

[momtara]

Well said.

In this case, though, I can see it causing all of us - including me and the kids - more stress if he brings the kids back Friday night, then take them again Saturday morning.  I figured Thur-Sat would be ok - same number of overnights.  But now he wants Wed night-Sunday.

Forcing him to pick them up ON Thanksgiving may seem a bit mean, though?

It's the layout of the holidays that is making this harder.

[ForeverDad]

Forget about "mean".  Thursday morning is just fine.  You're overthinking it.  The order is not unreasonable, it works for most people.  You don't have to explain yourself either.  KISS - Keep It Simple, Silly.

[momtara]

Very good points.  I have to practice saying that!

Thing is, it actually WOULD be less stressful for him to take them Wed night, as he works near us on Wed, so it's easier for him to pick them up Wed after work rather than drive out again the next morning.  And then I wouldn't have to deal with him coming on Thanksgiving.  ... .I just worry about the precedent it sets, giving him what's technically an extra overnight or two.

But yes, the roads are clear on Thur.  He's 45 min away, not 3 hours.  You're very reasonable - thanks.  Hope he doesn't fight me on this and add to my stress.

[david]

I follow the court order unless there is a very good reason for the kids.

Example: I drop the boys off at school in the morning on my custodial time. If that day is a school holiday I will let them sleep in and then I take them to their moms. It is a few hours later than when I drop them off at school. I always send an email days in advance letting ex know. I also expect ex to do the same and she has.

[whirlpoollife]

I would not go so far as giving him two extra overnights. Not with all that  you have been through with him.

Practice , as hard as it is , to not guilt yourself.  Sometimes to get me through that I tell myself, so I'm a bit--, so what of it.

Since he has them for Thanksgiving, make yours with kids ahead of time.

[Panda39]

I'm in the "follow the court order" camp. 

Give an inch my SO's uBPDXw will take MILES... .don't give anything she will take anyway.

My SO and I are having issues with his ex pushing a little here and a little there... .we follow the court order and we document her nibbles at the boundaries... .Kept daughter out of state for an extra day (missed plane because of traffic... .I kid you not... .in Vermont on a Sunday!), has not produced court ordered financial statements due last May, not consistently getting daughter to therapy as court ordered... .

[momtara]

Thanks, all.  I appreciate the support.  I emailed him and said we're sticking to the days, Thur-Sun.

I still wonder if it would keep his stress down to just take them after work, which is better for the kids if he's less stressed.  But that does mean one less overnight with me.  So I stuck to the plan.

We'll see how he responds.

Geez, something like this comes up practically every week!  Frustrating.

[momtara]

He came back with saying it's a lot easier traffic wise to get them Wed night, and he's going to his grandmother's on Thur.  I really feel kind of petty sticking to the order in this case.  I'm kind of torn.  I said no last time he asked for something like this. 

[momtara]

Well, he sent me a followup saying Thursday was OK, without me even asking!  After I stressed about this for hours.  Whew.  Maybe boundaries do work. 

[david]

Boundaries do work. Trust us.

You indicated in your posts that you are concerned for the kids when they are with him and you also said in this post that you think the children are okay with him if he has extra time ? You gotta pick one.

Notice that you did not reply and he replied back to you. He knows he can engage with you by using the kids. It is a learned behavior from his past experiences. That is your weak point and he is using it very effectively. I view using the kids that way as abuse.

Figuring out your boundaries and sticking to them is critical. He will learn from your boundary only if your boundary is in firm footing. It will take time since he has to learn a new way. Everyone learns new things at their own speed so you will not know when until the new behavior becomes the new "normal". It also has to become the new "normal" for you too.

I think your stress level will subside once you get comfortable with the new boundary. This will give you more energy to move forward for yourself and your kids.

[momtara]

Well said, thank you.

Regarding my apparent contradiction:  I think they are ok with him when he's not stressed.  If his family's around for the holidays, I feel more comfortable with them being there.  But I didn't want to loosen boundaries.

I think he is trying to play nice because we're going to see a parenting coordinator soon.  He wants to be able to say he compromised on stuff.  Whatever.

[david]

"I think they are okay with him when he's not stressed" So are you saying you are the cause of his stress and if you don't stress him he is okay ? As long as you do what he wants he is fine ? Doesn't sound right to me.  How do you know what things besides you that stress him. I haven't read anything you said that would be a major cause of stress for me that I would become scary/yelling/threatening/etc.

[momtara]

I suppose you're right.  I have to get out of this mindset that I can control it.  He certainly can get stressed by other things.

[david]

I am just pointing out things I think I am seeing. You know better than anyone else since you are intimately involved.

I used to beat myself up years ago about things I did and then second guessed myself. Gradually I came to realize that I will make mistakes with our boys and with dealing with my ex. I knew it before but I didn't stress over it until ex left. Then I began to micro analyze things. I worried about what if I did this or if I did that. This site, my friends, and my T helped me see things clearer. Once I started making my own decisions things got better. I stopped worrying about what ex would think or do. I was still too emotionally involved with her. I can't point to a single event but I did change. The extinction bursts occurred. The first few had me on edge. The uneasy feelings subsided and things for our kids got better. Things for me got better.

My ex is still a challenge but in different ways. She started attacking me again since we started the co parent counseling. I view it now not so much as me causing it but her reacting to things not going her way. Our boys get yelled at more because of that since she can't yell at me except through email. She hasn't yelled at me through email in quite some time. WHEN SHE YELLS SHE CAPS EVERYTHING and then goes back to lower case. The first time had me laughing because I couldn't believe it. Her yelling at the boys only pushes them further away so she is hurting herself in the long run. I do worry about what the long term effects on them will be especially with relationships with the opposite sex. I believe they realize what she does is dysfunctional but they have no functional relationship to model or guide them that I know of. I can't control that so I can't get too stressed by it.

[Panda39]

I have to get out of this mindset that I can control it.

Yep, Momtara you can't control your ex 24/7 you never could so stop putting energy into managing your ex and focus on you and your kids. 

Is this easy... .Hell No! I still struggle with this myself regarding my SO's daughter's and their uBPDmom but I know it isn't worth my time or energy to ruminate on things I can't do anything about. (I will confess I still do every once in a while  ) But as in David's situation my SO's ex is doing a good job driving her children away from her all by herself too. 

We document what we need to and keep a watchful eye out but unless something majorly abusive or dangerous happens that is all we can do.

I hear your fear but you have to push through the fear and be strong for you and your kids.  Stop worrying about what your ex is gonna do and just do what you're gonna do.  Momtara you're on a journey don't give up you will come through all of this and hopefully have found you're own power... .it's inside you right now.

Take care 

[momtara]

YES David and your insights DO HELP AND I AM YELLING AT YOU IN ALL CAPS!  Sorry - just kidding.  You are brave and smart. 

Panda, everything you said makes a lot of sense.  And very well written.  Thanks.

I'd always regret it if I did something that pissed him off and didn't have to do so.  So I will be cautious, but I have to be stronger, too.

I'm beating myself up because I had the chance to demand he stay in counseling over the summer, and I backed down.  Won't do that next time.  Heck, maybe our new parent coordinator will make sure he does it.