Approaching the saddest choice (Part 5)

[Grey Kitty]

I filled up another topic. If you missed the background, here are the first four parts:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=235769.0;all

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236247.0;all

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236799.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236950.0;all

Where am I now? Feeling a touch numb. Last night and this morning I was very sad.

I'm making plans for a Thansksgiving road trip, and I'll see an old friend and then stay with my sister and her family. My wife will be in the same town, supporting her brother for a minor surgery.

Very soon I need to tell my wife that I'm going to be in town, and want to talk with her sometime next week.

This is going to be when I repeat that I can't stay with her while she's cheating with or even in contact with the guy. I've been extremely clear on this point already, but silent for a while.

This is also where I'm going to say clearly that I can't stay here in limbo with her. Either we are working together to reconcile (my 1st requirement above), or I will be moving on emotionally. I've said something about this already, although not quite so clearly.

I need to feel it and mean it to say it.

I know I have to choose to do it this way. I'd have to check out from my feelings to do anything else, and I'm not going to make that choice again.

I've mostly bounced between sad and numb today.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[vortex of confusion]

This is also where I'm going to say clearly that I can't stay here in limbo with her. Either we are working together to reconcile (my 1st requirement above), or I will be moving on emotionally. I've said something about this already, although not quite so clearly.

I know you are pretty clear about not wanting to stay in limbo. Have you thought about how you will respond if she asks for just a little bit more time? Do you have a set time frame in mind or do you want an answer immediately? If she says that she can't give you an answer yet, are you prepared to deal with that?

[Jessica84]

I am sorry, Grey Kitty.

Sending you big cyberhugs.

   

[Grey Kitty]

I'm going to write her an email right away telling her that I'll be in the town she's in, and that I want to talk with her about our relationship.

I hope we can have a talk Tuesday or Wednesday. (Monday is out, and I'd like to do it before Turkey Day) I'll schedule it with her.

(And I owe my friend a lot for the advice to keep the meeting short. An hour tops. Better to plan for a half-hour. And she's so right. If I start talking with my wife for a couple hours, we go all over the place, and that isn't what I want to do this time.)

How much time will I give her? I'm NOT planning to ask her for an answer and give her a time limit to respond to it. Doing it that way is handing control, power, and choice to her. Exactly what I've done for two decades too many already.

What I'm going to say is that our current limbo state isn't working for me, so I'm going to move on, rather than leave my heart in limbo.

I will be driving back somewhere between Friday and Monday after Turkey day.

When I return to my boat, time is up. Either my wife is actively working to reconcile with me, giving me a reason to work at it myself, or I'm planning a life without her.

I was sad again last night. This morning I awoke surprised at some other feelings... .the first thoughts I remember were of a female friend who is sincere, energetic, creative, and fun to flirt with... .Somebody I'd like to try dating, when I have space in my life for that.

I'm also feeling more peace with my choice to end* things with my wife.

*Putting it all explicitly on the line only works for me if I'm willing to pull the trigger and end it.

[patientandclear]

  Kitty.

What struck me toward the end of your last thread was your comment that it is a lot of work for you now to engage with your wife.  I think that feeling of hard labor comes up when what it takes to stay in the r/ship really requires fighting our own instincts for self-preservation and self-protection.

This is the toughest stuff.  Boundaries etc. sound a lot better when your partner responds to them by changing the behavior that was hurting you.  It's another kettle of fish when they don't, or won't.

[Grey Kitty]

Thanks!

What struck me toward the end of your last thread was your comment that it is a lot of work for you now to engage with your wife.  I think that feeling of hard labor comes up when what it takes to stay in the r/ship really requires fighting our own instincts for self-preservation and self-protection.

Perhaps some there. However that's not the actual hard labor I'm referring to.

I'm feeling the hard labor of working against my old habits and patterns of self-neglect and capitulation.

And it is getting easier. I wrote an email to my wife:

Subject: Talk in [city]

Hi Wife,

I'm going to spend Thanksgiving with [sister and family in town] this year. I expect to arrive sometime on the Monday, and stay through Friday, possibly longer.

I really want to see you and talk face-to-face about our relationship while I'm there. Tuesday or Wednesday would be my choice.

Love,

Grey

I didn't spend hours on it. I just banged it out, let it sit while I did my morning meditation, then got back to it, edited a few words and hit "Send." I've got to pack and leave in 24 hours, so I don't have time to fuss with it very much!

It is getting easier, and feeling less uncomfortable to state what I want in a way that doesn't hand control to my wife.

[vortex of confusion]

It is getting easier, and feeling less uncomfortable to state what I want in a way that doesn't hand control to my wife.

 

That is awesome!

[Grey Kitty]

Just got off the phone with my wife. She got my email.

I (mostly) kept the conversation out of relationship conflict territory, and was able to easily convince my wife to veer out when we hit some conflict about common property.

We had some logistics to deal with... .which day we can talk... .I offered to bring her a few of her things from the boat, and asked her to email me a list so I didn't have to remember it.

... .and what to do about Thanksgiving... .my sister had invited her and her brother, before I broke the news to her. After talking to my sister, I told her that I would handle any uninviting, and that I thought that my wife would steer clear on her own, being more conflict averse than I am.

My wife did chuckle when I said that I didn't think our r/s discussion was a suitable topic for Thanksgiving dinner, and would rather do that first.

I asked her what she wanted to do for Thanksgiving dinner, and she admitted she wasn't sure, but might want to take her brother to a restaurant instead. We agreed to play that one by ear.



Now I'm thinking about our face-to-face conversation.

My wife said she misses me just now. She also told me... .forgot any specific words... .about wanting to maintain friendship and closeness to me, even if our r/s does change.

We're in conflict there, although I didn't tell her yet. The half-way separation, with closeness, but without commitment isn't something that works for me. I'll take nothing if that is my only other choice.

I won't do it with a threat to cut contact forever. I may be able to be a different kind of friend to her later, after I've healed, probably after I'm in another relationship.

My choice will be to stay civil, but reduce contact and minimize intimacy with her... .for as long as I need to.

She's obviously not going to like this. She will probably try anything she can to get around it.

I'll have to be strong. Again, my friend's advice to keep this short is good.

[Cat Familiar]

Grey Kitty, I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this during the holidays. It's hard enough to let go of a long term relationship without the added complications.

Feeling unmoored also has an upside and that you awoke with nice thoughts about your female friend suggests that there are many pleasant experiences that await you.

Hugs

[MissyM]

I hope that whatever happens, it turns out for the best for you GK!

[Grey Kitty]

Sigh. My wife is so confused.

A very good friend who knows and loves us both said something today about being very angry at my wife and not wanting to communicate with her for that reason--he knew he probably wouldn't be very helpful or constructive. This is one of three friends I've know who spent a year in meditation at a Buddhist monastery. Someone who was a mental health professional prior to retirement. I cannot remember him sounding angry ever. And this is a guy whose Harley was just stolen!

And I just read a link she shared on facebook with this text: "This gives me hope for my own future." www.houstonchronicle.com/local/gray-matters/article/How-I-escaped-suicidal-depression-5899145.php?t=3ea3a7175a

Good article. The author had crippling depressions. She was diagnosed with BPD at one point. She was suicidal. She went through a DBT program. She isn't even having depression anymore now.

It does give me more reason for compassion for my wife. I had some already.

It doesn't change that she's still in contact with the guy she's cheated on me with. And (as of now), most likely cheat with him again when she's in the same town with him. I don't even know if she things she needs consent for the next (hypothetical) guy or not.

Sigh.

[Cat Familiar]

Grey Kitty,

My sympathies at having to make the decisions you're making right now. 

I was married to a serial cheater BPD husband for almost 20 years and leaving was one of the most difficult things I've ever done. But afterwards I've never had a moment of regret and now I'm with my BPDlite husband who, despite his problems, is a wonderful man and a huge improvement in my life.

Things can get better, in spite of the heartbreak of being at the threshold of a decision.

[Grey Kitty]

I just spent two hours with my wife. I'd done a lot to prepare for it. I'm reminded of the saying "No battle plan survives intact after the first contact with the enemy." Not that my wife and I are exactly enemies... .but we sure are in some conflict!

So my plan was to speak to how I was hurt by the cheating, and how I distanced myself as a result of it. Then continue speaking to how I had chosen to keep some distance to keep myself safe, especially since she was still in contact, and thus still cheating in my mind. And finally to say that I wasn't finding this distance working for me, and I would be going further away if she wasn't willing and able to come back toward me.

I did end up saying most of that, but pretty soon she threw me for a loop saying that she had cut contact with him. Well... .I was willing to end everything 'cuz she was still in contact. I'll need some time to re-think that one!

She still has issues that make it hard to trust me. I still have issues that make it hard for me to trust her. We still don't want to live together in the immediate future, which makes it hard to figure out what reconciling really will mean. Especially because whenever my wife says that what we did before wasn't working for her, I tend to agree, and say that I don't want to do that either.

The good: We were able to hug and say we loved each other.

The bad: We talked too long and got to some sore pissy moments where we have been hurt.

The complicated: She still doesn't know whether she can/will try to make it work with me. (I was clear that at some point I've got to interpret a "maybe" as a "no"

Probably good: What i was saying made it clear that I was (in my mind and heart) taking ownership and responsibility of our boat. She saw this and said something. I was able to honestly say that I was wanting to do this. And that I wasn't wanting to exclude her from "my" boat, nor was I wanting to forget, ignore, or minimize all she put into the boat. I was clear that I did want to take responsibility for her.

I did TRY to keep it to about an hour so we could discuss the important emotional issues and then separate to think about it, before we started digging into places where we hurt each other. However I didn't quite succeed. It went two hours.

Somehow at the end, it came to my wife getting upset that I'd told my sister and parents both that we were having trouble and that she cheated. (And also that I've told some friends.) She literally used the words "painting me black" and "smearing my reputation". She also asked me if I'd told my sister that we had been in an open relationship. I was simply not interested in that fight.

I'm pretty clear about it in my mind and heart. She did cheat. Having had prior permission for a r/s with one guy is not open season. Cheating after having previously figured out consensual non-monogamy is something that makes it worse in my book, not better.

This is my experience and my truth. Any right she had to keep me from saying this ended when she started cheating on me. I choose to share it with some people because I've found myself where trying to have a genuine relationship with them prevents me from hiding that, and this is more important than the embarrassment I or feel about it.

Our prior open r/s situations are also my truth, and I make my own choices to share that (or not).

I hated leaving on that note. It wasn't what I wanted. But I sure wasn't going to stick around for any more of it.

We will probably talk again, and I do expect to see her before I leave.

My situation isn't getting clearer, but we are taking steps... .in some direction, at least.

[Cat Familiar]

Expecting you to put up with her cheating and then not disclose it to people you are close to is asking waaaaaay too much.

I was ashamed and embarrassed by my ex husband's rampant cheating and when I finally shared my experience with friends, I felt so much love and support.

It's like they want to isolate you and control you, but on the other hand, they feel no obligation to be considerate of your feelings.

Sounds like your wife has a touch of NPD?

[vortex of confusion]

Sending you a great big hug. 

I am glad to hear that some progress was made.

Here is a question for you based on some of the things that you have said before. At what point are you going to interpret her maybe as a no? You seemed pretty firm about some things before you met with her. Have you softened on those things? If so, why? Have you gone back and read some of the things that you wrote prior to meeting her to remind yourself of exactly what boundaries you want to enforce?

[Grey Kitty]

My take on "maybe" is "This isn't a yes I can go forward on."  I'm willing to allow a little more time before I take it as a definite no.

Cutting contact is the first real step she's taken. That means something to me.

I kinda wonder when she did it... .and why she didn't say anything to me before about it. Maybe she did it last night? However, honestly, I don't want to hear anything about that r/s from her, so I'm trying to put those thoughts to bed as soon as I can--it is the actions that really matter.

As far as telling people about the cheating... .I'm not going to let her embarrassment or shame influence my decisions. (I've got enough of my own to cope with!) If the topic comes up with her too much, I may be reminding her that she gets to choose her actions, but she doesn't get to choose the consequences of those actions.

I don't know that my wife 'expected' me to stay silent. (or seems NPD at all) I just think she's feeling really upset that my family (who really liked her a month ago) just heard something really bad about her... .and doesn't know what to do with her now.

It is funny... .I've told pretty much the whole story to a few friends. I've told a much more abbreviated version to my family. I think all of these friends had heard some of our open / polyamorous marriage stories before, which sets some backdrop for it... .and I still haven't told my family about that... .and REALLY don't want to now. (If I do, they will probably associate failed marriages with polyamoury... .which absolutely won't be the real reason. Public awareness of non-monogamy is way behind say, gay/lesbian public awareness, so coming out is a challenge. Especially when there is no working poly stuff to come out with today anyhow!)

[vortex of confusion]

Cutting contact is the first real step she's taken. That means something to me.

I don't know that my wife 'expected' me to stay silent. (or seems NPD at all) I just think she's feeling really upset that my family (who really liked her a month ago) just heard something really bad about her... .and doesn't know what to do with her now.

That's a tough one! It is difficult to balance being honest about what is going on without getting too negative. Even when I share with friends and family (outside of this board), I try to keep things balanced so that people know what is going on without necessarily thinking bad about my spouse. That isn't always easy to do because sometimes their actions are not good no matter how you slice it.

It is funny... .I've told pretty much the whole story to a few friends. I've told a much more abbreviated version to my family. I think all of these friends had heard some of our open / polyamorous marriage stories before, which sets some backdrop for it... .and I still haven't told my family about that... .and REALLY don't want to now. (If I do, they will probably associate failed marriages with polyamoury... .which absolutely won't be the real reason. Public awareness of non-monogamy is way behind say, gay/lesbian public awareness, so coming out is a challenge. Especially when there is no working poly stuff to come out with today anyhow!)

Open marriages and polyamorous stuff is automatically equated with swingers stuff from the 70's. There is no way to even try to explain ethical non-monogamy to some people. In my experience, the people that have poly stuff that work tend to keep quiet about it. A lot of people, like me, have tried the open marriage as a way to try something different in an effort to save the marriage. What my husband and I didn't realize is that there has to be trust and open communication in order for it to work. Our failing to meet certain criteria, like trusting each other and being secure in our relationship, is not the fault of polyamory. Him lying to me and not honoring our agreement about being open and honest has nothing to do with polyamory but with the basic dysfunction between us.

[formflier]

 

Why discuss with her... .who you have told about cheating... .it seems like that is your business... and not hers.

Maybe a topic for after there is full commitment to reconciliation... .if even then.

Are you interested in who she has told about this?

[Grey Kitty]

Why discuss with her... .who you have told about cheating... .it seems like that is your business... and not hers.

It wasn't a topic I brought up. I don't lie. I don't do well at evading direct questions. She has been close to my sister for twenty years, so it does matter to her.

Sometimes when one person does something and another person is hurt, they aren't doing anything wrong.

[Grey Kitty]

Today I realized that there was some progress with my wife... .and that there were big plans at my sister's house today, and tomorrow (Thanksgiving), and my original thought was to hit the road early Friday morning.

So I tried to call... .didn't get an answer, and texted her, saying that my schedule was filling up and I wanted to see her again before I left. (mid-morning, after breakfast here)

We got together for dinner... .Two and a half hours together.

This was less tense than last time. But she did use the word fragile once.

She's still spending time going down the same rabbit holes she's been going down. Even admitted that she used the cheating as a way to blow up our marriage as a desperate way to get some dis-entanglement from me. She has apologized... .she had done that before.

She did say that she cut contact with the guy for me. 

We agreed that we don't want to go back to a life that has the problems we had before. I think she's starting to believe that I really don't want it!

She was asking me stuff like "What are you offering me?" and listing the things I'm not doing with her. (Among other things, we really aren't planning to do things that can be in the same city except for a brief time or two for the next few months.I pointed out that I was trying very hard not to tell her what she should be doing, so offering things to her wasn't quite what would work for me.

I eventually said something along the lines of "I want to hear you you to tell me that you are committed to trying to make things work better with me, in a way that works for you." There was another sentence... .she walked around the table to hug me!

I did bring up the issue of consent (for other sex, lovers, etc.) I also explained how the person who grants consent (or not) needs no good reason and no explanation. (compared it to consent with your own body, where that is clear)

I also asked if we were back where we both needed consent, and she did agree to it. I explained that for me, kissing is past the consent level, and that flirting doesn't need consent. I asked her what consent levels she had for me. (Didn't get a very clear answer, other than that she wanted to know who I'm flirting with.)

I hinted a little at therapy. She proposed seeing one we'd seen before, who is in a city she plans to be in around Christmas, and I might (or might not) make it to for that time. I was in (general) agreement, although I suggested we not wait 'till then, especially not knowing if she was still working. I think my wife will contact her.

Other news: She ran out of one anti-depressant, and had gone two days w/o it. Apparently wasn't good for her, she didn't sleep well. Now remedied.

She was also considering getting a ride with me to another city as I'm on my way back to resume boat work. I told her that I was nervous about being locked in a car with her for 6+ hours. (I keep finding myself needing to defuse things... .and I know that when I'm driving, I'm not as good at staying validating from prior experiences... .bad ones!) I joked that it would be OK if a therapist was in the back seat.

After I started writing here, I realized that I am *STILL* the one who has to take the lead (emotionally).

I refused to engage and changed the subject when she started getting worked up/upset about stuff.

I insisted (a couple times) that I wasn't ready to hear about stuff related to her cheating.

I did this before I was triggered... .firmly, but gently.

I was the one who reached out.

I was the one who brought up difficult, but concrete things.

Addendum: While I was typing had a friendly goodnight text exchange. Last one: "My heart is so relieved, even though you're across town, I am much, much happier."

[waverider]

Are you going to have a negotiated work around this issue just to run headlong into the next issue?

What does your gut tell you?

Is the stay /leave issue hinged on just this boundary, or is it the whole personality needs mismatch?

Once the cheating boundary has been breached it is always a weak spot that easily breaks down again. I know this from both sides of the fence. Consequences alone are not enough to keep it strong. The "perpetrator"  needs to change at a personal level to avoid just trying to go deeper underground as a workaround. As it is driven by their "needs" whatever that may be.

"Needs" foster delusions that it is your business only and its just a matter of working it right.

The need has to go, for the action to stay gone.

[Grey Kitty]

Are you going to have a negotiated work around this issue just to run headlong into the next issue?

What does your gut tell you?

My gut tells me I'm very relieved at this chance to work at repairing things, instead of working on full division of assets.

Is the stay /leave issue hinged on just this boundary, or is it the whole personality needs mismatch?

... .

"Needs" foster delusions that it is your business only and its just a matter of working it right.

The need has to go, for the action to stay gone.

For me, I was ready to walk over continued cheating. So that was a stay/leave issue. The other stuff between me and my wife is probably larger, but I'm willing to work on it in the context of staying together.

For my wife, this guy wasn't important enough to lose me over.

And for my wife, she did have NEEDS that were large enough that she chose to blow up our marriage to get them.

Once the cheating boundary has been breached it is always a weak spot that easily breaks down again.

True that. At some level, this has been a weak spot for my wife for over a decade. She took it farther this time... .but the emotional stuff we both went through before was similar to a previous incident. This time I responded very differently.

My wife knows she's got a lot of work to do on herself. She is afraid she won't be able to keep things within the consent boundaries. We both agreed that this is her stuff to work on, and there isn't room for me to be too involved in that.

I really don't know if we will make things work. I believe she is ready to try. I am too. I don't know how much she's figured out what she wants to do with herself and her life. There is some chance that we will discover that we don't have much left that we want to do together.

[ziniztar]

I believe she is ready to try.

If only that would be all it takes.

[Grey Kitty]

I believe she is ready to try.

If only that would be all it takes.

No, that isn't sufficient. It is necessary.

As I just said to a friend... .We aren't out of the woods yet. We are both walking forward, with the intention of finding a path to the same side.

I first saw my wife Monday, ready to end it, not sure my wife would even try to make things work.

Friday, just before I hit the road, I watched Interstellar with my wife, our fourth 'date' together in the five days I was in town. (Aside: I cried non-stop for the end of the movie... .probably 10 minutes! Feeling very open-hearted.) I'm feeling very relieved at the idea of making things work... .and I hear similar from her.

[formflier]

 

Grey,

I'm glad for you.  I think you are working through this well.

Especially the part about where you see that you acted differently "this time"... .and therefore... .you know that you are on a different path that in previous incidents.

[Cat Familiar]

Grey, you do have a very open heart. I wish you well.

[MaybeSo]

I am wishing you all the best.