Empathy?

[Jessica84]

Some say pwBPD can't feel empathy. I think the opposite is true - maybe they over-feel it?

Mine seems to feel not only his own pain, but everyone else's. He studies those around him for cues on what they're thinking and feeling - particularly about him. If he picks up on the slightest negative emotion, his instinct is to cut them out of his life so he doesn't have to feel it. Then he forgets the pain he caused and makes contact again. By then, we've had time to get over it. But then he inflicts new wounds, goes in hiding again, comes back, inflicts, hides... .vicious circle.

Do you have to make yourself feel nothing to be around a pwBPD?

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[maxsterling]

I know my SO feels empathy.  The problem is her needs>others needs, so what often happens is that she feels incredibly bad about something after she does it, yet is incapable of changing course before she does it again.  And she turns around the "I feel bad about... ." into her internal shame and self-loathing, which tends to increase the negative emotions until they boil over again, causing someone else more pain.  I actually think she may have more empathy than the typical person - she just has a disconnect that prevents her from processing in a healthy way.

As for your last question - You are naturally going to feel what you are going to feel.   You can't ever be completely numb.  So if the pwBPD does something hurtful, it's normal to feel hurt.  What you do have to learn is to not personalize and do something else with the emotions.  So it's not about feeling nothing, it's about learning that what you are feeling isn't about you, and to channel those emotions elsewhere.  And by elsewhere, I mean other places/people for emotional support (such as here), burn it off though exercise, creative outlets, etc.

[honeybadger]

Do you have to make yourself feel nothing to be around a pwBPD?

This double-standard is what I struggle with. I used to be too emotional, so I was pleased with my progress over the years in learning (for the most part) to not wear my heart on my sleeve with my UBPDbf. Only problem is... .I'm human. I'm generally happy but I get sad and I get stressed sometimes. Whereas, he gets happy and unstressed sometimes. What a perfectly balanced equation – NOT. He then gets very upset with me when I am feeling anything left of happy. And it usually leads to a blow up. I assume he feels scared and overreacts, not even knowing what he is doing. Then I feel resentful of the fact that I tried so hard to keep it together and I'm not "allowed" to have even small bouts of humanity. I fall off the pedestal for being human.

I want to bring this up in our next T session. It puts so much stress on me. And it's making me feel less close to him. He's essentially pushing me away.

[Jessica84]

I've learned to depersonalize most of it, but I can't do it ALL the time.

In the moment, there is no escaping what I feel when he's being insensitive. I can rationalize it in my head and calm down the panic I feel inside, but some things gnaw at me even when I don't say or do anything that would trigger him. He can somehow sense it, feels bad about it, blames himself (or me) for it, then either creates an argument out of thin air or goes cold/silent. It's like being punished for being human.

[ColdEthyl]

I've learned to depersonalize most of it, but I can't do it ALL the time.

In the moment, there is no escaping what I feel when he's being insensitive. I can rationalize it in my head and calm down the panic I feel inside, but some things gnaw at me even when I don't say or do anything that would trigger him. He can somehow sense it, feels bad about it, blames himself (or me) for it, then either creates an argument out of thin air or goes cold/silent. It's like being punished for being human.

Same for all of us dear. We are not perfect, we will flub up. No matter how much I know not to do it... .I end up showing emotions, get frazzled... .even go into JADEing before I catch myself and put the tools back into action.

With time and practice, these things get better

[waverider]

The problem with a pwBPDs version of empathy is it is not the same as we view it. We see the pain of others and imagine how it may feel from THEIR VIEW POINT. A pwBPD can see the suffering but see it from their own view point as though it is happening to them. They can take it on and mirror it, which can seem like empathy. They struggle to identify the pain with it being your personal feelings.

This mirroring can overload them as they go to extremes. Rather than soothing you they can fuel it by magnifying it. Their attempts at soothing is more like pouring fuel onto it as they can overdo the rescuing mode. Then on the other hand they can shut down.

The problem with keeping a lid on it is that some seeps out, they sniff it and assume it must be about them, and your attempts to conceal it just puts sinister implications on it.

[RoseB]

I have spoken about empathy with my girlfriend who has BPD. She says she does not struggle to understand the emotions of others, she understands just fine. She just does not see their emotions as valid. She says that everyone else's emotions do not compare to hers, and so why should she care. She said the only time she would be empathetic and show compassion is if she deemed someone's problems worse than her own - which is nobody in her eyes. So my view is that they are able to feel empathy, they just don't have the ability to see our emotions as valid or acceptable.

[Climbmountains91]

As a BPD sufferer myself i feel to much empathy for others i forget my own emotions and sends me crazy !. Makes me second guess my diagnoses as i got diagnosed a few months ago. Funnily enough by the same consultant my ex BPD is under but I'm being moved to a different consultant soon as he doesn't want us under the same umbrella ! But it just makes me wonder if I've picked up his bad habits or thats my actual diagnoses as I've had mental health problems all my life anyway.  

With my ex i find and his even said its to much for him to take on other peoples feelings and that. He tries to act like he has empathy sometimes and looks like he's looking after you but its all an act. He snaps easily so he says. Its like a domino effect.

[ColdEthyl]

As a BPD sufferer myself i feel to much empathy for others i forget my own emotions and sends me crazy !. Makes me second guess my diagnoses as i got diagnosed a few months ago. Funnily enough by the same consultant my ex BPD is under but I'm being moved to a different consultant soon as he doesn't want us under the same umbrella ! But it just makes me wonder if I've picked up his bad habits or thats my actual diagnoses as I've had mental health problems all my life anyway.  

With my ex i find and his even said its to much for him to take on other peoples feelings and that. He tries to act like he has empathy sometimes and looks like he's looking after you but its all an act. He snaps easily so he says. Its like a domino effect.

Ok... .you just made me feel a little better. I've always had anxiety and anti-social issues, and I noticed myself getting worse lately. I had wondered if it's just due to age (certain things just get worse) or if my BPDh was rubbing off on me. I've even caught myself believing I was smarter than most folks. How vain is that?

I suppose when you go to see the new person, they might shed some light on that for ya... .if you are truly BPD or not.

[waverider]

I have spoken about empathy with my girlfriend who has BPD. She says she does not struggle to understand the emotions of others, she understands just fine. She just does not see their emotions as valid. She says that everyone else's emotions do not compare to hers, and so why should she care. She said the only time she would be empathetic and show compassion is if she deemed someone's problems worse than her own - which is nobody in her eyes. So my view is that they are able to feel empathy, they just don't have the ability to see our emotions as valid or acceptable.

There is a touch of narcissism in that. It is not empathy, it is observation of cause and effect. Followed by clinical analysis as to how it affects them with little care for those affected. Even with the ability to use it as tool for their own benefit if necessary.

If someone has little or no empathy, then the true meaning of the word is lost on them. As a result the term is used inappropriately.

[Climbmountains91]

As a BPD sufferer myself i feel to much empathy for others i forget my own emotions and sends me crazy !. Makes me second guess my diagnoses as i got diagnosed a few months ago. Funnily enough by the same consultant my ex BPD is under but I'm being moved to a different consultant soon as he doesn't want us under the same umbrella ! But it just makes me wonder if I've picked up his bad habits or thats my actual diagnoses as I've had mental health problems all my life anyway.  

With my ex i find and his even said its to much for him to take on other peoples feelings and that. He tries to act like he has empathy sometimes and looks like he's looking after you but its all an act. He snaps easily so he says. Its like a domino effect.

Ok... .you just made me feel a little better. I've always had anxiety and anti-social issues, and I noticed myself getting worse lately. I had wondered if it's just due to age (certain things just get worse) or if my BPDh was rubbing off on me. I've even caught myself believing I was smarter than most folks. How vain is that?

I suppose when you go to see the new person, they might shed some light on that for ya... .if you are truly BPD or not.

I hope they can. I have read that you can pick up the habits but i don't know. I am going to ask for a second opinion. Have you seen your doctor or anyone about it?

[waverider]

As a BPD sufferer myself i feel to much empathy for others i forget my own emotions and sends me crazy !.

Empathy is seeing things through their perspective (without owning them), you are taking these feelings on and making them your own. Hence you overload (Flood).

It is that lack of regulation and keeping things in perspective that is missing. Flood or famine, when it comes to emotional stimulus.

As you say for others it can show as an act, as they have blocked (famine) the real emotion. It is easier to control and be appropriate when there is no real distracting trigger there.

[ColdEthyl]

As a BPD sufferer myself i feel to much empathy for others i forget my own emotions and sends me crazy !. Makes me second guess my diagnoses as i got diagnosed a few months ago. Funnily enough by the same consultant my ex BPD is under but I'm being moved to a different consultant soon as he doesn't want us under the same umbrella ! But it just makes me wonder if I've picked up his bad habits or thats my actual diagnoses as I've had mental health problems all my life anyway.  

With my ex i find and his even said its to much for him to take on other peoples feelings and that. He tries to act like he has empathy sometimes and looks like he's looking after you but its all an act. He snaps easily so he says. Its like a domino effect.

Ok... .you just made me feel a little better. I've always had anxiety and anti-social issues, and I noticed myself getting worse lately. I had wondered if it's just due to age (certain things just get worse) or if my BPDh was rubbing off on me. I've even caught myself believing I was smarter than most folks. How vain is that?

I suppose when you go to see the new person, they might shed some light on that for ya... .if you are truly BPD or not.

I hope they can. I have read that you can pick up the habits but i don't know. I am going to ask for a second opinion. Have you seen your doctor or anyone about it?

They increased my anxiety meds, but they never really mentioned whether or not it can 'rub off' or not. I might also go for a second opinion... .someone who hasn't seen my file before.

[DreamFlyer99]

ColdEthyl and Climbmountains,

I can tell you from experience how the traits can rub off, I've been through that personally! I started asking my therapist if I was BPD. !

There are many overlaps as well with Complex PTSD and BPD.

[Jessica84]

What are the similarities between PTSD and BPD?

And can they develop from the same trauma? (like childhood sexual abuse)

[DreamFlyer99]

The overlap surprised me when I read up on it.

We both tend to have immature emotions, we both tend to have abandonment issues, we can both have poor self-images. My husband i'm pretty darn sure has undiagnosed BPD (as does my therapist of 13 years) while I have complex PTSD. For us personally, I haven't had the need to have two totally different views of him where he would definitely act like I was an angel one day and a demon the next. I've always been very empathetic, while he can be empathetic toward other people (at least it looks like it) but he has no empathy for me, seems to put a different value on how he should treat me as if I am somehow a threat.

This workshop is a good start, it's about the differences between BPD and PTSD.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=42598.0

Hopefully Waverider will come by and give you a more succinct answer! (I am never succinct.   I seem to lack that gene!)

And childhood sexual abuse would for sure cause the PTSD! in fact the diagnosis of PTSD requires there to be a traumatic event where in BPD there is often childhood abuse but not always.

The biggest difference i'd see between myself and my husband is that my view of him was steady--not that I didn't get hurt or sad or whatever, but that I didn't see him as 2 pretty much separate people as he saw me.

df

[Jessica84]

Dreamflower, your answer was very succinct! Thank you for sharing and for the links. Feel free to add more of your story - I didn't realize you had PTSD and he had BPD. Must be challenging for both of you at times.

I was asking because my uBPD may have one or both. He has all 9 traits of BPD, but PTSD also fits. He was sexually abused as a child by some older boys. His parents remained friends with one of the boy's parents because he never told them. In a way, he blames his parents for what happened to him.

I guess it doesn't matter what the diagnosis is (his therapists have been so bad he no longer trusts the idea of "treatment"... .I'd like to learn all I can to know how best to communicate with him and stop triggering him. It's so hard to know how to talk to him when his moods change at rapid-fire speed!

[SlyQQ]

Empathy might not be right word for it though what you are describing falls under "angry face recognition" you should check it out with respect to BPD s (for those with a nuro chemical bent this may also be linked to vassopressin ... .)

[ColdEthyl]

Empathy might not be right word for it though what you are describing falls under "angry face recognition"

you should check it out with respect to BPD s (for those with a nuro chemical bent this may also be linked

to vassopressin ... .)

Actually, I think you are unto something there. That's like when I got home from work once, and I was taking my shoes off, found a hole in my favorite socks and I sighed. My husband got angry and internalized it... .like I was somehow angry at him.

But by this train of thought... .if I'm angry, he mirrors the anger. When I'm injured, does he mirror the injury, and reflect back anger since that's his go-to emotion?

My personal thoughts on this:

1. no one can hurt more than them. So anyone else sick or hurt pisses them off.

2. If he has me painted in his head about how white I am, the vulnerability might also trigger anger, because I'm not living up to that ideal at that time.

3. From what he says, he feels helpless when I'm sick or injured, because he can't make it stop. Feelings of vulnerability will trigger anger.

[DreamFlyer99]

My uBPDh's go-to emotion is frustration (he calls it.) But it sure looks like hostility and anger to me! Balled fists, narrowed eyes, clenched teeth... .

There seems to be an element of Life As A Competition for a pwBPD--my uBPDh got to the point where i could not even tell him about an article i'd read about Fibromyalgia (which i have) because He Hurts And He Has To Go To Work. (i'm on disability for the fibro.)

Jessica84, i ended up leaving mid February this year when it got impossible to be with my uBPDh's hostility. Big bad mix, our two issues! Me giving too much, him telling me i don't give enough-- And another similarity between PTSD and BPD are that we have flawed belief systems. For instance, he would see everything through the lens of his own self-preservation, fearing abandonment at all times, and not have a clear picture of who he was at all, even with the truth staring him in the face. (he's very high-functioning and talented in his field of work.) My belief system would say that there is no safety at all, but in working with my therapist I've learned that i am in charge of my own safety as much as i can be. Those sorts of things. Anyway, my therapist says that "The work is all the same." Meaning that the individual has to recognize where their life is not working and then make a decision to change their thinking and behaviors. So no matter what the diagnosis, the way through to the other side is the same--right through the mud.

Any of the skills to be learned here at bpdfamily are great not only for someone with BPD because what the communication tools do is teach us how to come across less attacking, and the self-care skills we ALL need to learn!

And i like Dreamflower so much better!

[Jessica84]

Ooops! I called you Dreamflower, didn't I? 

I love your last line... reminds me of a Winston Churchill quote: "If you're going thru Hell, keep going"... .because the only real way out of a problem is through it.

Very insightful, ColdEthyl -- your 1, 2, and 3 make so much sense!

When I googled what Slyqq suggested I found a study that showed pwBPD don't always accurately detect the right emotions in others, which naturally causes their level of empathy to be somewhat impaired. It really isn't about empathy for them... .more like they look for cues that fit their "facts" and confirm their warped beliefs. Most pwBPD in the study found a "neutral" facial expression to be an "angry" one. The non's didn't identify the angry face until it was much more obvious.

I know my expressions have been misread many times. Same with my tone of voice. Very frustrating to be accused of being mad when I'm not... .to the point of making me mad! I guess they look for validation that they're about to be abandoned so if you're not actually angry they try to make you angry to complete the self-fulfilling prophecy. Sad way to go thru life.

Thank you all for sharing. It's amazing how much there is to learn!

[ColdEthyl]

I know my expressions have been misread many times. Same with my tone of voice. Very frustrating to be accused of being mad when I'm not... .to the point of making me mad! I guess they look for validation that they're about to be abandoned so if you're not actually angry they try to make you angry to complete the self-fulfilling prophecy. Sad way to go thru life.

Thank you all for sharing. It's amazing how much there is to learn!

Yep. Yep. Yep.   I've gotten a lot better knowing what's going on now, but in the beginning I used to get so frustrated I WOULD get mad!

I agree with Dreamflyer/Flower () :D

The past few years have really helped me as a person grow, as well. I learned to control my own temper and feelings. I have learned to have fun by myself, and not NEED someone all the time. I'm still on the journey, and I don't know where I'll end up , but right now I'm still going with my dBPDh, who has also grown in the passed few years.

[Jessica84]

I still can't believe I said Dreamflower...   Sorry Dreamflyer!

Totally agree ColdEthyl. Thanks to this forum I see what he's doing now so it's MUCH less frustrating. Whenever his emotions started spiraling out of control I used to spiral on down with him, JADEing all the way deep into the vortex! I've learned getting angry when he's trying to bait and provoke me does neither one of us any good. What's helped most is paying more attention to what's going on inside ME so I can keep my own emotions regulated... .what a different experience that is!

I used to feel like a dancing monkey before... push this button, I do this... push that button, I do that... the tools here helped take the remote control away so he can't push my buttons. Well, most of the time. He still manages to find a button and keep pressing it sometimes... . 

It's weird though. When he's not in that disordered state, he seems to have a true ability to empathize. I know I have felt genuine empathy from him before. I've seen him show it to others. It's when he gets dysregulated that he becomes incapable of dealing with anyone else's feelings but his own.

[waverider]

Dont know a lot about PTSD, but my thoughts were that this leaves someone hyper vigilant. Like a full time 360 degree radar which is ready to ring the alarm bells at any potential threat real or imaginary. ie driven soley by reaction to outside stimulus. Fully mindful and overly aware of the moment.

BPD on the other had is wrapped up in their own internal world of turmoil, almost oblivious to what is happening in the real world. A lack of mindfulness. What a pwBPD does is they peer at world through tunnel vision binoculars searching out potential triggers to activate thoughts that are already festering. ie they have the gun primed and are on the lookout for the flint to strike.

This is why much can go straight over the head of a pwBPD that would trigger a pwPTSD. But specific triggers could be picked out like a needle in a hay stack, real or imaginary. They are searching for them

[DreamFlyer99]

Dont know a lot about PTSD, but my thoughts were that this leaves someone hyper vigilant. Like a full time 360 degree radar which is ready to ring the alarm bells at any potential threat real or imaginary. ie driven soley by reaction to outside stimulus. Fully mindful and overly aware of the moment.

BPD on the other had is wrapped up in their own internal world of turmoil, almost oblivious to what is happening in the real world. A lack of mindfulness. What a pwBPD does is they peer at world through tunnel vision binoculars searching out potential triggers to activate thoughts that are already festering. ie they have the gun primed and are on the lookout for the flint to strike.

This is why much can go straight over the head of a pwBPD that would trigger a pwPTSD. But specific triggers could be picked out like a needle in a hay stack, real or imaginary. They are searching for them

So interesting--that would explain why my uBPDh has such a talent for twisting something I've done or said into another thing that was entirely purposefully done to hurt him, if he's already feeling like life is out to get him, then what I did must fit that scenario. It's mind boggling to hear his take on things I've done! I sound so much more strategic and clever his way!

He interprets his own expressions and body language quite differently than it appears to me as well--what he says is frustration looks like he's about to take a swing at me. So he downplays his own and enhances mine, I guess to fit whatever his "story" of the truth is.

It just makes him angry (excuse me, "frustrated" when I have one of those lovely complex ptsd responses rather than any sort of empathy toward me for being in that state. i'm learning, i'm trying really hard, but what they amount to is another sort of inability to tell  yourself what is true about your emotions because it's like whatever that bad event or series of events was has taken over your body and you're living the emotion of that time. And generally it's been him pushing that button.

And seriously, when I read ":)reamflower" I just closed my eyes and thought of a dreamy flower, and I liked that picture.

[ColdEthyl]

I know he does this... .he tries to pick fights sometimes just to be angry about something. I've learned not to feed that with JADEing and most of the time his little snippy comments doesn't get him what he wants. He's internally angry all the time. That's what he will say... .I'm just... .angry. I am so angry. About what? And he will give a laundry list of petty things that don't equate that amount of anger.

I wonder if pwBPD can also have PTSD. He says his childhood doesn't bother him, but when he's dysregulated he will bring up what he went through quite a bit. Not sure if it's to play some sort of sympathy card, or if what happened just plays in his head over and over and over... .and that's where the anger comes from.

But perhaps you are right, Waverider. He could be bringing it up, along with petty stuff as a place holder for the feelings he has internally that he cannot process properly.

Dont know a lot about PTSD, but my thoughts were that this leaves someone hyper vigilant. Like a full time 360 degree radar which is ready to ring the alarm bells at any potential threat real or imaginary. ie driven soley by reaction to outside stimulus. Fully mindful and overly aware of the moment.

BPD on the other had is wrapped up in their own internal world of turmoil, almost oblivious to what is happening in the real world. A lack of mindfulness. What a pwBPD does is they peer at world through tunnel vision binoculars searching out potential triggers to activate thoughts that are already festering. ie they have the gun primed and are on the lookout for the flint to strike.

This is why much can go straight over the head of a pwBPD that would trigger a pwPTSD. But specific triggers could be picked out like a needle in a hay stack, real or imaginary. They are searching for them

[DreamFlyer99]

ColdEthyl,

I've wondered that same thing about whether or not a person could have both, and I don't know why they couldn't... .

My roommate does that thing about picking a fight, she's very much protecting herself against perceived wrongs and seems to be itching for an argument. I do wonder if it isn't that same thing Waverider says about their internal world being so negative or whatever that they throw something out there to see if someone will just engage in their angry inner argument, yunno?

I would find these things more fascinating if I weren't the target.   I have indeed picked people to have in my life who I thought I could "help." Go me.

[ColdEthyl]

Yep same here. My first husband was just selfish and useless. When I met my husband now, I thought I hit the jackpot. We have so much in common, so many laughs! He's very intelligent, knows something about EVERYTHING. He held this part of him in for 6 months. Then when it trickled out, he said was depression... .when I did my own research and confronted him with what I thought, he told the truth. Then a year later WHOOSH the crazy wasn't being held in anymore. Well darn it if I don't already love him, and I'm committed to this marriage. So, here I am... .making chicken salad out of chicken something else

ColdEthyl,

I've wondered that same thing about whether or not a person could have both, and I don't know why they couldn't... .

My roommate does that thing about picking a fight, she's very much protecting herself against perceived wrongs and seems to be itching for an argument. I do wonder if it isn't that same thing Waverider says about their internal world being so negative or whatever that they throw something out there to see if someone will just engage in their angry inner argument, yunno?

I would find these things more fascinating if I weren't the target.   I have indeed picked people to have in my life who I thought I could "help." Go me.

[DreamFlyer99]

ColdEthyl, this

So, here I am... .making chicken salad out of chicken something else

caused me to snort! Funny.

I too have been very committed, that's why 38 years have gone by. When the craziness just kept getting worse and worse and my mental health was declining and the trauma increasing I had to make a choice, and that choice was in favor of my own mental health, so I left. Boy has that been a hard choice, against everything I have believed. I finally had to choose to listen to my inner voice/gut/instinct and go. I had already felt emotionally unsafe, but once I felt physically unsafe I had to exit.

and there's no way I can go back, no matter how much guilt and intimidation he uses. Do trust your instincts if you feel in danger of any sort, okay? I ignored mine for years just so I could get along.

[waverider]

ColdEthyl, this

So, here I am... .making chicken salad out of chicken something else

caused me to snort! Funny.

I too have been very committed, that's why 38 years have gone by. When the craziness just kept getting worse and worse and my mental health was declining and the trauma increasing I had to make a choice, and that choice was in favor of my own mental health, so I left. Boy has that been a hard choice, against everything I have believed. I finally had to choose to listen to my inner voice/gut/instinct and go. I had already felt emotionally unsafe, but once I felt physically unsafe I had to exit.

and there's no way I can go back, no matter how much guilt and intimidation he uses. Do trust your instincts if you feel in danger of any sort, okay? I ignored mine for years just so I could get along.

I think what you are saying is that no matter what you do you can't make a chicken salad, only make a less pungent fertilizer and learn to be happy with that. The days of fine dining are gone, unless you find different ingredients.

Once you get used to no longer eating chicken poo it seems unimaginable to willingly go back to it