No affection/intimacy - BPDw claims walls up always.

[nightmoves]

I have recently asked my BPDw WHY there is NO affection from her... .no kindness... .no connection... .no touch of any kind.

Her answer is that she does not feel "safe enough"... to let her "walls down".

Now - at first I cringed at that. I have done NOTHING for her to feel unsafe... nothing. (and I said that to her)

She agreed that not in any "traditional sense". SO THAT was even MORE confusing.

I asked her to explain... .and she said something along the lines of  she did not feel that "I was concerned about her well being"... .

AGAIN... .major cringe... .as I have been SO VERY concerned and attentive to her well being for YEARS. This is NOT just my perception.

She also said that " she did not feel safe with her emotions with me"... .

AGAIN... .her emotions have been UPSIDE DOWN... .for YEARS. I have proven to be VERY safe to be around - and  I still love her, support her, want her.

SO... .here is the thing... .

IF she CHOOSES to keep her walls up... .I live a life WITHOUT affection, touch, closeness. (and yea... .sex as well)

SO - has anyone else experienced this with a pwBPD?

it is like she has a LOT of fear of intimacy and closeness overall... .but she AIMS that blame at ME. Which ... of course... .takes ANY responsibility off herself... .AND makes her even MORE likely to NOT want to get close to ME.

(paradox for sure)

Can anyone help me understand it?

Any path that might help?

Thank you

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Hawk Ridge]

Mine used to say she was scared. Other times, she would say she is just not sexual.  I found that, after a time, it was hard not personalize this.  On my insecure days, I wonder if she is like that with my replacement.  I have a very gentle soul so I didn't push it but I can tell younit would hurt me deeply if she was physical with my replacement.  With one of her previous partners, they were together for 7 years and she was not physical for the last 5.  Very sad

[Grey Kitty]

Start by accepting this:

She has her feelings. Those feelings are real. 98% of the time those feelings have NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.

So if she says she doesn't feel safe enough to let her walls down with you... .

You could... .validate that she is feeling these things.

... .Ask her if there is anything you could do which would help her feel safer?

But make sure you really ARE interested in her feelings.

If you try to convince her that you did nothing that is unsafe, you are JADEing at her, and it is invalidating, and will make things worse for you.

[nightmoves]

Thanks Grey -

And I in fact - did validate her... .AND... .later asked her to please let me know what makes her not feel "safe".

She was mad I asked.

SO I said... ."I really wsant to now. I very much do not want you to feel that way.

I won't even debate it. Could you please just write them down and email them to me. IF you can... .please let me know as well... what I CAN do to make you feel safe" "Again - maybe just writing is easier/better than discussing."

She (with an attitude) said she would .

She has not yet. And - in fact- I am pretty sure she will not.

So here is the thing for me.

I really am a pretty aware guy. I am also a man who easily and readily accepts responsibility and am quite easy to admit I did something wrong.

And - given that - I REALLY cannot discern what I do to make her feel "not safe" enough to be affectionate - or - totally unsure as to why her walls need to be up.

Also - IF a person feels unsafe... .and the other person ASKS and WANTS to know what he or she does to do that. WOULDN'T you thinking that the person would WANT to tell them. And it would be EASY to describe?

SO -I am more than puzzled.

Today? She is PAINTING me black... .and why?

She says because I ... .asked... .the... .question... .

(some times I wonder how I have not last my mind... .entirely... .;-)

[enlighten me]

Just a thought. Is she feeling unsafe because of wanting to do something  that she knows to be wrong?

[nightmoves]

Enlighten -

Well, she specifically is saying she does not feel "safe" with me.

So I am not sure your statement.

Thanks

Night

[RoseB]

Apparently it's quite common for people with BPD to have intimacy issues. It's not to do with you, the fact she doesn't feel safe won't be a result of anything you've done or haven't done, even if thats what she claims. I'm sure you've gone to the ends of the earth to make her feel safe. My gf also has intimacy problems so I know how tough it is in the relationship. You cannot blame yourself though. I'm not sure what the answer is though as we cannot force or persuade them to feel positively about affection. However I've found that when the relationship is going okay and she knows I care, affection will happen a bit more often.

[nightmoves]

Rose

the fact she doesn't feel safe won't be a result of anything you've done or haven't done, even if thats what she claims. I'm sure you've gone to the ends of the earth to make her feel safe.

You are so right. I have done everything I can to try and be supportive - kind - appreciative of who she is - and loving.

I have asked her "plese tell me what you mean. Please explain how it is you do not feel "safe" with me. Please tell e how htat equates to not being abkle to be affectionate?  IF you reach out and hold my hand... .how does that make you feel "unsafe"?

She got REALLY mad that I was asking this.

Which REALLY confused me.

If roles were reversed... .I would SO MUCH want my spouse to SHARE this all with her. As I would WANT her to make me feel SAFE.I would WANT her to understand so we could be close, intimate, connected.

This is SO unbelievably upside down logically.

I almost cannot sleep anymore as the illogical of it all has gotten me so confused.

It is like I ma facing a giant mystery.

WHY would my wanting to understand... .wanting to improve things... .be met with ANGER. (?)

Very very confused... .

[Grey Kitty]

the fact she doesn't feel safe won't be a result of anything you've done or haven't done, even if thats what she claims. I'm sure you've gone to the ends of the earth to make her feel safe.

You are so right. I have done everything I can to try and be supportive - kind - appreciative of who she is - and loving.

I have asked her "plese tell me what you mean. Please explain how it is you do not feel "safe" with me. Please tell e how htat equates to not being abkle to be affectionate?  IF you reach out and hold my hand... .how does that make you feel "unsafe"?

The way you ask... .it comes off invalidating to her. Your words here sound to me like an accusation that she is doing something wrong by feeling unsafe around you. This is subtle, but it is in there.

Let me put it another way:

Do you want her to find you to be safe?

---OR---

Do you want to understand how she feels?

There is a subtle difference... .and the first one comes off as invalidating to her, while the second one comes off as validating to her.

[nightmoves]

Thanks Grey -

I actually believe I want both?

The first statement actually accepts that whet she feels is real... .I just feel I need to know what I might do to make her feel that way.(so I can not)

[nightmoves]

The curiosity (frustration) for me is - why can't she articulate it... .?

[enlighten me]

Enlighten -

Well, she specifically is saying she does not feel "safe" with me.

So I am not sure your statement.

Thanks

Night

[/quote

what I meant by my statement is that she may be feeling trapped by you. She may have done something that you wouldnt be happy about so is scared that you will be mad at her. Or she may want to do something.

Im not saying what my exs did your SO has or will do but my exgf cheated on me and it was after this the walls really went up and she told me she didnt trust me. ]

[Jack_50]

Night :

Here's my point of view.

Why can she not just articulate it?  Because she doesn't know your world.

Most women live in a world of emotions, where most men are living in a world of facts (not trying to be sexist, just my observation).

BUT : we both assume that the way we experience the world is the way everyone does.

It is not.

She can not even comprehend why you do not understand her.  For her it is obvious what is wrong, because after all: everyone lives on emotions, and knows how to recognize them, right?

It is one point where women are very different from men : they have much more experience recognizing and sensing emotions in other people, where we men only focus on the facts, and try to keep emotions out of the picture to not clutter our point of view.

There's a reason that in general women secretly regard men as emotionally disabled, while men silently regard women as emotionally uncontrolled.

At the moment, she's getting more frustrated with every failed attempt of you to get her to explain.  It confirms to her that you do not understand her, which is another asset most women need in a partner.  It is exactly why she does not feel safe around you.

She needs to learn that the fairy tale does not exist : if the princess does not tell her prince what is going on inside of her, he has no way of knowing it.  Her partner lives in a totally different world than herself, and only after she has trained him extensively about her world, will he be able to get a grasp of what goes on inside of her.  

Her role in this relationship is to teach you about her emotions and her world.  And you need to learn to recognize and support her emotions, and teach her about your world.  Only then will you be able to find each other.

It is a skill, and anyone can learn it.  Time is all that is required.


Hope it helps,

Jack

[nightmoves]

Jack50 -

Wow... .profound post.

EXACTLY what It is like.

IN fact - SO MANY times - I have felt like she is running a fantasy script through her head... .

In many ways - a childlike approach.

The "resolutions" are never really on target resolutions - NOR - address or repair the "problem"at all. But rather, they are some black and white movie scenario... .which has the lead characters simply running across a fountain in a crescendo embrace... .( run with me here... ;-)

Maybe this is the child like place of pwBPD?

[bruceli]

I have recently asked my BPDw WHY there is NO affection from her... .no kindness... .no connection... .no touch of any kind.

Her answer is that she does not feel "safe enough"... to let her "walls down".

Now - at first I cringed at that. I have done NOTHING for her to feel unsafe... nothing. (and I said that to her)

She agreed that not in any "traditional sense". SO THAT was even MORE confusing.

I asked her to explain... .and she said something along the lines of  she did not feel that "I was concerned about her well being"... .

AGAIN... .major cringe... .as I have been SO VERY concerned and attentive to her well being for YEARS. This is NOT just my perception.

She also said that " she did not feel safe with her emotions with me"... .

AGAIN... .her emotions have been UPSIDE DOWN... .for YEARS. I have proven to be VERY safe to be around - and  I still love her, support her, want her.

SO... .here is the thing... .

IF she CHOOSES to keep her walls up... .I live a life WITHOUT affection, touch, closeness. (and yea... .sex as well)

SO - has anyone else experienced this with a pwBPD?

it is like she has a LOT of fear of intimacy and closeness overall... .but she AIMS that blame at ME. Which ... of course... .takes ANY responsibility off herself... .AND makes her even MORE likely to NOT want to get close to ME.

(paradox for sure)

Can anyone help me understand it?

Any path that might help?

Thank you

Just got out of a 6 week maximum security "walls up" with my pwPD.  She went looking for a replacement, those were even more "unsafe" than me, so on Wednesday, she decided that I was OK again to be let in and the cycle begins a new.

[bruceli]

Night :

Here's my point of view.

Why can she not just articulate it?  Because she doesn't know your world.

Most women live in a world of emotions, where most men are living in a world of facts (not trying to be sexist, just my observation).

BUT : we both assume that the way we experience the world is the way everyone does.

It is not.

She can not even comprehend why you do not understand her.  For her it is obvious what is wrong, because after all: everyone lives on emotions, and knows how to recognize them, right?

It is one point where women are very different from men : they have much more experience recognizing and sensing emotions in other people, where we men only focus on the facts, and try to keep emotions out of the picture to not clutter our point of view.

There's a reason that in general women secretly regard men as emotionally disabled, while men silently regard women as emotionally uncontrolled.

At the moment, she's getting more frustrated with every failed attempt of you to get her to explain.  It confirms to her that you do not understand her, which is another asset most women need in a partner.  It is exactly why she does not feel safe around you.

She needs to learn that the fairy tale does not exist : if the princess does not tell her prince what is going on inside of her, he has no way of knowing it.  Her partner lives in a totally different world than herself, and only after she has trained him extensively about her world, will he be able to get a grasp of what goes on inside of her.  

Her role in this relationship is to teach you about her emotions and her world.  And you need to learn to recognize and support her emotions, and teach her about your world.  Only then will you be able to find each other.

It is a skill, and anyone can learn it.  Time is all that is required.


Hope it helps,

Jack

Perhaps, however, what I believe I have come to understand from research and using the tools provided is that when we do finally come to understand, that then makes them exposed and vulnerable.  Therefore they pull back because control and manipulation for them becomes more and more difficult.  Bad behavior increases as a last ditch effort to regain control.  extinction bust I think?

[Grey Kitty]

Do you want her to find you to be safe?

---OR---

Do you want to understand how she feels?

I actually believe I want both?

OK. Here's the rub:

If you spent time and energy trying to CONVINCE her that you are safe, you will be invalidating, and make things worse, keeping her from finding you safe.

I'd recommend you read the lesson on how to avoid invalidation carefully:

TOOLS: Stop Invalidating Your Partner (or the BPD person in your life)

On the other hand... .if you approach things from the perspective of caring about what she's feeling, that will be validating for her... .and will make you seem more safe to her.

Kinda paradoxical, but that's what you have to do to operate successfully in her world.

[nightmoves]

Thanks Grey -

I think I understand the paradox.

Actually - I thought I was validating her to the extreme when I accepted that she did not feel safe.

I want to help that change.

BUT do I not NEED to understand what she means by that statement in so far as what or why does she not feel safe?

There is truly nothing I can think of to figure it out on my own... .I have thought deeply about it - and really do not understand.

[nightmoves]

And... .still no explanation from her as to what makes her feel "unsafe".

But I am now getting TONS of disdain.

I truly am getting to a point... .after trying SO hard to learn all about BPD,how to validate, cope, not trigger, etc... etc...

AND being SO supportive and doing ANYTHING I can to be the best husband I can be - WITH the chaos and so much lacking in a r/s that the disorder brings... .

That I am really simply worn out.

Trying to make sense of all this ... .and whatever NEW twist each say brings... .can drive one literally insane... .

[Grey Kitty]

I don't expect you to get a good answer as to how you are unsafe. Because it really isn't about you anyway.

If you are feeling worn out, that is probably a cue that you either need to enforce better boundaries to protect yourself, or simply take better care of yourself, and stop expecting your wife to take care of you for a while. Or both.

Meanwhile, make sure you don't do/say invalidating things... .and be as validating and supportive as you have the energy for.

As they say on airplanes: Put your own oxygen mask on first before assisting others.

[Jack_50]

And... .still no explanation from her as to what makes her feel "unsafe".

But I am now getting TONS of disdain.

I truly am getting to a point... .after trying SO hard to learn all about BPD,how to validate, cope, not trigger, etc... etc...

AND being SO supportive and doing ANYTHING I can to be the best husband I can be - WITH the chaos and so much lacking in a r/s that the disorder brings... .

That I am really simply worn out.

Trying to make sense of all this ... .and whatever NEW twist each say brings... .can drive one literally insane... .

You're wearing yourself out trying to push for a straight answer.  It will not come.  

As I said before, your question is proving to her that you do not understand her.  Hence the increased frustration with every attempt.

So stop trying, you're making it worse.

You not understanding her IS the reason she does not feel safe.  A woman needs a protector, someone she has a bond with and who will take care of her when necessary.  If the protector does not understand her communication, she can not count on his support when she needs it.  Hence the loss of feeling safe.

As for yourself : Kitty is right : you need to learn to take care of yourself before you can take care of others.

My wife also has a big problem with me first focusing on myself; mothers (maybe even women) in general follow their mothering instinct, and have the exact opposite principle : take care of others before you can relax and take care of yourself.  Being their partner, they expect the same from you.  

So far, so good.  BUT: the mothering instinct also knows no mercy, so they WILL relentlessly wear you out.  

So, unless you make sure that you can handle it all and are ready for more, you WILL reach exhaustion.

Bottom line : it is YOUR job to take care of yourself, so that you are able to give your best when the time comes.  And only YOU can decide when and how to do that, anyone else's opinion is exactly that : just an opinion, and not necessarily correct.

So start taking time off; let some chores wait till tomorrow; tell her you're busy when she comes with a new request, etc.  Go for a walk when you feel overwhelmed, start working out etc.  Anything that helps to get yourself back to your basic state.  It is necessary.


At the core of it all is just nature, so there is no need to search for someone to blame.  Just understand it, accept it, and make the best of it.



Jack

[nightmoves]

Dear Grey and Jack -

Thank... .you.

Night

[nightmoves]

Jack... .the following ought to be framed.

It makes sense out of one of MY biggest riddles in this.

You're wearing yourself out trying to push for a straight answer.  It will not come. 

As I said before, your question is proving to her that you do not understand her.  Hence the increased frustration with every attempt.

So stop trying, you're making it worse.

You not understanding her IS the reason she does not feel safe.  A woman needs a protector, someone she has a bond with and who will take care of her when necessary.  If the protector does not understand her communication, she can not count on his support when she needs it.  Hence the loss of feeling safe.

[formflier]

 

Think for a minute about where the thinking of "tell me what makes you feel unsafe" takes you.

Once a list is produced... .then the "nons"  (that's us on this board)... .will correct that list and announce... ."see... you are safe now"... .

Well... .pwBPD still will feel the same way... .and then more drama will happen.

Another way of saying this... .is it leads to a form of "deal-making"... .I will do this... .and you will do this... .(or worse)... .you will "feel" this way.  

Well... deal-making with pwBPD is a minefield... .avoid it if possible.

Last... .Grey had great advice... .focus on understanding her feelings... .(that is different than agreeing)... .once pwBPD think and feel like they are "understood"... .they will feel safer.    Not saying it will "fix" things... .but it will be a relative improvement.

String together a series of relative improvements... .and you are in much better shape.

[bruceli]

Think for a minute about where the thinking of "tell me what makes you feel unsafe" takes you.

Once a list is produced... .then the "nons"  (that's us on this board)... .will correct that list and announce... ."see... you are safe now"... .

Well... .pwBPD still will feel the same way... .and then more drama will happen.

Another way of saying this... .is it leads to a form of "deal-making"... .I will do this... .and you will do this... .(or worse)... .you will "fee" this way. 

Well... deal-making with pwBPD is a minefield... .avoid it if possible.

Last... .Grey had great advice... .focus on understanding her feelings... .(that is different than agreeing)... .once pwBPD think and feel like they are "understood"... .they will feel safer.    Not saying it will "fix" things... .but it will be a relative improvement.

String together a series of relative improvements... .and you are in much better shape.

But then this throws off the balance of the push/pull so they either stay to keep you misunderstood or move on to something else either real or imagined to keep you misunderstanding.

[formflier]

But then this throws off the balance of the push/pull so they either stay to keep you misunderstood or move on to something else either real or imagined to keep you misunderstanding.

Possibly... .it may seem that way... .but I don't think they "consciously" think through push pull... .or feeling unsafe.

I would not "focus" or make a "point" of making sure they feel understood... .just have that be a byproduct of the way you behave towards them.  If you make it a focus... .they will focus on it... .and it will be a point of struggle... ."see... .now I understand you... "... ."no you don't... "

For instance... .I used tools for several months... .my wife had... .and still has no idea.  In MC one day she remarked... .you know... .we are fighting a lot less these days... ."not sure what that is about... ."

It was an offhand comment... .I didn't focus on it.  But... I knew the reason... .and she was right... .less drama... .better r/s.

That is the point... .that the r/s is better.  Not that the pwBPD acknowledges it is better... .but that we (the nons)... .have a better quality of life.

Thoughts?

[bruceli]

But then this throws off the balance of the push/pull so they either stay to keep you misunderstood or move on to something else either real or imagined to keep you misunderstanding.

Possibly... .it may seem that way... .but I don't think they "consciously" think through push pull... .or feeling unsafe.

I would not "focus" or make a "point" of making sure they feel understood... .just have that be a byproduct of the way you behave towards them.  If you make it a focus... .they will focus on it... .and it will be a point of struggle... ."see... .now I understand you... "... ."no you don't... "

For instance... .I used tools for several months... .my wife had... .and still has no idea.  In MC one day she remarked... .you know... .we are fighting a lot less these days... ."not sure what that is about... ."

It was an offhand comment... .I didn't focus on it.  But... I knew the reason... .and she was right... .less drama... .better r/s.

That is the point... .that the r/s is better.  Not that the pwBPD acknowledges it is better... .but that we (the nons)... .have a better quality of life.

Thoughts?

I would have to agree. It is a primal reaction I feel, part of the fight or flight. 

[Grey Kitty]

It is always better to live in a way that improves your relationship than to tell your partner that you've changed/improved. Everybody (non, BPD, whatever!) cares more about actions than intentions to change or statements about upcoming reforms.

I remember when my wife had some sort of a life-changing experience and referred to herself as "Wife 2.0" and kept asking me if I saw the difference. I had to respond by saying I believe she's changing, but hadn't seen different behavior yet. A year or more later, she made more changes and I really noticed the difference. I believe that something started when she first mentioned it even though I didn't notice results.

Recently she sent me a r/s article to read, and said she wanted to discuss it. I was in a very angry place, and didn't even read it for a while. When I did, I told her that I could see some things that applied to me in the article and I'd rather show her any changes that I make in my behavior than discuss it with her.