Is anyone else at that point?

[Mike_confused]

I have posted on the "Staying" board for a couple of years; however, I do not know how much longer I have it in me to tolerate the crap my wife with BPD dishes out.

I have tried to understand where her rage, selfishness, thoughtlessness comes from.  I think I do now.  I have learned to accept that she only knows how to take, and why she cannot deal with the simpliest of daily stresses.  I know not to take most of her threats of divorce seriously because she changes more quickly than the weather.  I try to ignore the apparent fact that I am her handyman and maintenance guy, as well as Sugar Daddy (her words on her Birthday last week).  I have forgiven her for hitting me with anything heavy she could find (in the past).  I have come to understand why she appears to need sedation on her birthday - and why she treats me like dog crap on mine.

In other words, I think I understand why at times in her mind I have caused all the pain in her life, and why I am not what a husband should be in her mind.  I have learned to be calmer.  I love her and most of her ways.

And yet... .finally... .I just cannot tolerate her abuse any longer.  BPD is not my wife's fault.  I must be the one to change because she is unable to.  Well, I will not any longer.  I am mentally and emotionally exhausted - my closest friends see it.  I believe she is slowly killing me - if I stay nothing can ever be for me.  Ever.  Mental illness or not, she may have to continue her ridiculous cycles with out me.   Screw SET and every other method whereby I have to sell my soul and swallow my pride to calm my child-bride down.

Is it just me?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

Nope, it's not just you. Mike, you sound like a wonderful, extremely tolerant man who has tried his best.

I'm sort of at the burnout point too, even though I have little to complain about with my BPDh. I realize that I'm feeling that way because of a lifetime of dealing with pwBPD, beginning with my mother. I truly had a rough time with my xBPDh, who had epic acting out behaviors that kept me off balance for 20 years. Finally I had enough and I ended it with him.

But now I'm realizing that I'm tired of coddling all these pwBPDd. My husband's issues are so mild, if I hadn't had so much experience dealing with other people's mental illnesses, I probably could easily ignore and forgive his issues.

[maxsterling]

Screw SET and every other method whereby I have to sell my soul and swallow my pride to calm my child-bride down.

Is it just me?

Not just you  You sound exhausted.  I know I am exhausted.  I was thinking this morning while in the shower what effect a pre-planned JADE session would do.  I feel like I am constantly validating and dealing with her moods, with no time for myself.  And when I finally scratch some time, she reacts by blaming me for taking time for myself.  I feel like I am validating underlying moods which I can understand, yet I think she hears me validating her overblown reactions.  I feel like at some point I just have to not validate, and tell her that certain behaviors are not acceptable.  

At this point I feel there is so much going on that needs a defense or an explanation.  The constant depersonalizing is slowly eating at me. I want to spend time with her in the present, yet she wants to project to the future.  And I struggle with how to stand up for myself without resorting to JADE or invalidation.  And I am starting to conclude that at times both of the above need to happen, and she needs to hear some hard truths, and she will spiral very low, and I just need to let that happen and then the dust to settle.  

[Mike_confused]

to sing a familiar song, I just need peace and stability.   We agreed to move to a certain place as soon as her child graduates next June.   Now she says she is selling her home and getting an apartment because I don't help her.   Or, her alternate plan of the day is to move south - she knows I DETEST the southern climate (just because heat tortures me).

I cannot even go on.   I provide her $50K a year for HER expenses only.   Not enough.  I cause the problems.  I am not Christian enough.   She never agreed to move.  HER child needs a car that I should WANT to provide.   

I am burned out. 

[vortex of confusion]

Yes, I am at that point and have been for a while. I want to leave but it is going to take time. In the meantime, I am still here but I have stopped trying to validate and have instead started calling him on his crap. My grandmother is in the hospital and that can't get her stable. One minute she is doing fine and the next they think she is going to die. I was driving home from the hospital thinking how nice it would be to come home to somebody that I could talk to and feel safe and let it all out. I get home and he tries to play the part of a concerned husband. I told him flat out, "I don't feel like I can talk to you. There have been so many times when I have reached out to you and you have made it about you or pushed me away. I have spent way too many nights and mornings wanting to wake up to you. I married you wanting a life partner rather than a child." His response was all about him. He sat there like a whipped puppy and just said, "I know. I earned this." Whatever! I try to talk about my 90 year old grandma who is in failing health and he still manages to make it all about him. He still friggin' turns it around and finds ways to talk about himself and his family. Oh, and when he doesn't, he makes sure to give me a full report about how proud he is of himself for not interrupting me. He has to point out that he only said, "I love this story" and didn't take over while I was talking to the kids. Why the hell should I friggin' validate him for attempting to have a normal conversation with me? I feel like I have turned into a jerk because that seems to be the only way I can manage without him sucking me into his pity parties or his attempts to brag about how well he is doing. Sorry for the rant! I, too, am very tired and very exhausted by it all.

[maxsterling]

to sing a familiar song, I just need peace and stability. 

Familiar song, indeed!  Same song here - I just need a little peace and stability from her so that I know where the ground is that I can work from.  She seems to think I want her to be this or that, and when in reality I just want to know who SHE is - if I knew that I can know what to work with.  I'm having the same issues regarding moving/housing.  Facts - moving is huge stress, I like it where we are, and I have a job here.  Moving?  I'm not against it.  But I need to know where she wants to go and why!  I'm not just going to randomly move some place because she feels lonely here.  So if we do move some where, it will be a few years down the road, and she wants to worry about it now.  Uggh.  Just need SOME stability in the present time.  

[Grey Kitty]

And yet... .finally... .I just cannot tolerate her abuse any longer.  BPD is not my wife's fault.  I must be the one to change because she is unable to.

 Indeed it is time to change.

Stepping out from the abuse as it starts is the best thing you can do for yourself.

It doesn't sound like you've had much success there. Have you tried, and if so, what happened?

[Mike_confused]

Grey Kitty,

I have had plenty of success, all of it relatively short term.   No matter how good she feels and acts toward me, I can bet the farm I will be a piece of roadkill to her at some point soon.  I saw what one person wrote about being tired of codddling their BPD spouse.  I am there also.   I guess I am not going to deal with the childish behavior any longer.

[Grey Kitty]

 No matter how good she feels and acts toward me, I can bet the farm I will be a piece of roadkill to her at some point soon.

Yes, I get that. And (assuming you stay), you will go back from roadkill to beloved again too.

Making this work for me was first about not staying present for that kind of behavior.

If boundary enforcement doesn't protect you 99% from abusive behavior, you can improve it, regardless of what she wants to do.  Tell us how it fails and let us help!

[MissyM]

I actually think that is a healthy place to get to, Mike.  When I had decided I had enough and wasn't willing to continue without recovery, it took my dBPDh a few months to realize I meant it and then he began recovery in earnest.    While validation and SET are important, there is no way I will be with my dBPDh without him taking the necessary steps to improve his mental health and behavior.  It doesn't seem to be a popular stance on his board but I just couldn't live with the insanity any more.  Now, my dBPDh has decided that he wants to recover from his addictions and his mental health issues.  I am seeing remarkable change in him, me and us.  Really, I think it is reasonable to only stay with someone that is mentally ill that will get help.  I wouldn't stand by and watch my husband suffer from diabetes and accept that he would just not get help and expect me to take care of him, in place of medical professionals. 

But this is just my view, I am sure plenty of people feel differently.

[Mike_confused]

MissyM,

yes.   I agree completely that it is not a popular stance on the board to take the position that you will no longer tolerate your BPD-spouse's behavior, mental illness or not. 

I love her, care about her well being, and yet I will no longer stay with her if she continues her efforts to force me into an early grave.  Enough is enough.

[Grey Kitty]

MissyM, I think your approach is fantastic, and I'm delighted that your H is going forward. 

It doesn't seem to be a popular stance on his board but I just couldn't live with the insanity any more.  Now, my dBPDh has decided that he wants to recover from his addictions and his mental health issues.  I am seeing remarkable change in him, me and us.

There is a critical but subtle difference between your attitude and a similar one I've seen others take on these boards. You expressed this as a boundary you were willing to enforce. Others have expressed it as a rule they want their partner to follow.

When you can't live with the insanity any more, giving your H one last chance to change before you walk takes a lot of strength. With him choosing to work on it, it is going better for you (and him too!). If he made the other choice, to ignore his own issues, you would have moved on. That would have been better for you than staying with the insanity too.

The other version, trying to get a partner into treatment doesn't work the same way. It feels to your partner like you are trying to control them, and at some level, it is exactly that. Especially if your threat to leave is later exposed as just that, a threat that you don't act on.

Mike_confused,

If you are still dealing with abusive behavior, I've seen that addressed with boundary enforcement inside the relationship successfully enough times that I know it can be dealt with inside the relationship.

The point that MissyM hit was over other behavior... .which you cannot protect yourself from in the same simple way.

I've been both places.

A couple years ago I was ready to end my marriage if needed to protect myself from the abuse. I was able to protect myself from the abuse without ending the marriage. (And much improved after that. Long story)

A week ago, I was ready to end my marriage over my wife's cheating. The only thing I could do to protect myself from it was end the marriage. I told her this. She did cut contact with the guy she cheated with, and we're trying to work things out now. (Most of our work is on other issues... .some of which pushed her to the point of needing to cheat on me.)

Wherever you are on all this, good luck, and take good care of yourself.

 GK

[MissyM]

The other version, trying to get a partner into treatment doesn't work the same way. It feels to your partner like you are trying to control them, and at some level, it is exactly that. Especially if your threat to leave is later exposed as just that, a threat that you don't act on.

Absolutely, threats don't work.  I have heard it said that you have to be willing to lose your marriage sometimes to save it.

If you are still dealing with abusive behavior, I've seen that addressed with boundary enforcement inside the relationship successfully enough times that I know it can be dealt with inside the relationship.

I heard something in an alanon meeting once, boundaries first and then detachment.  Apparently, that is how it comes in their literature.  Without boundaries as a foundation to protect ourselves, detachment isn't really possible because we are constantly having to fight to protect ourselves.  It just keeps the vicious cycle going.  Reaching the point that boundaries are for me and about me, was life changing.  Taking care of ourselves first is not something caretakers are used to doing and takes a lot of effort.  Our pwBPDs responses to those boundaries are not our problem but learning to set boundaries is.

(Most of our work is on other issues... .some of which pushed her to the point of needing to cheat on me.)

  GK, I would really look at that statement.  No issue in your relationship pushed her to need to cheat.  That is her issue and has nothing to do with your relationship.  If it was about the relationship you would have cheated too, KWIM?

[Grey Kitty]

(Most of our work is on other issues... .some of which pushed her to the point of needing to cheat on me.)

  GK, I would really look at that statement.  No issue in your relationship pushed her to need to cheat.  That is her issue and has nothing to do with your relationship.  If it was about the relationship you would have cheated too, KWIM?

She was legitimately dissatisfied with things in our relationship. As well as other things in her life. That was real. Cheating was her unhealthy and unacceptable way of coping with it. Her reasons don't justify anything. They don't change the choice she made. But they do exist.

Her reasons matter to me in that I still care about her and care about what she is thinking.

When it comes down to it, her actions are what I really care about. She cheated. That matters, and had a lot of consequences. She cut contact with him since. That matters too. I would have walked otherwise.

And you are correct--I didn't cheat. That matters too.



Sorry, Mike_confused--I hope I'm not derailing your thread too much.

You still are in the position of having to make some really tough choices about how to cope with your situation.

[ForeverDad]

(Most of our work is on other issues... .some of which pushed her to the point of needing to cheat on me.)

  GK, I would really look at that statement.  No issue in your relationship pushed her to need to cheat.  That is her issue and has nothing to do with your relationship.  If it was about the relationship you would have cheated too, KWIM?

She was legitimately dissatisfied with things in our relationship. As well as other things in her life. That was real. Cheating was her unhealthy and unacceptable way of coping with it. Her reasons don't justify anything. They don't change the choice she made. But they do exist.

Her reasons matter to me in that I still care about her and care about what she is thinking.

When it comes down to it, her actions are what I really care about. She cheated. That matters, and had a lot of consequences. She cut contact with him since. That matters too. I would have walked otherwise.

And you are correct--I didn't cheat. That matters too.

BPD is sometimes called a Blamer's Disorder... .projection, blaming and blame shifting.  We all have some level of fault, both sides, can't avoid it because we all have 'traits'.  The issue is that when the traits are seriously out of balance and to an extreme, then the blame in the relationship dysfunction is not equal.  While we do need to take ownership of our issues and the consequent impact, we need to be careful not to accept even more from the disordered spouse.

MissyM, I think your approach is fantastic, and I'm delighted that your H is going forward. 

It doesn't seem to be a popular stance on his board but I just couldn't live with the insanity any more.  Now, my dBPDh has decided that he wants to recover from his addictions and his mental health issues.  I am seeing remarkable change in him, me and us.

There is a critical but subtle difference between your attitude and a similar one I've seen others take on these boards. You expressed this as a boundary you were willing to enforce. Others have expressed it as a rule they want their partner to follow.

When you can't live with the insanity any more, giving your H one last chance to change before you walk takes a lot of strength. With him choosing to work on it, it is going better for you (and him too!). If he made the other choice, to ignore his own issues, you would have moved on. That would have been better for you than staying with the insanity too.

The other version, trying to get a partner into treatment doesn't work the same way. It feels to your partner like you are trying to control them, and at some level, it is exactly that. Especially if your threat to leave is later exposed as just that, a threat that you don't act on.

Mike_confused,

If you are still dealing with abusive behavior, I've seen that addressed with boundary enforcement inside the relationship successfully enough times that I know it can be dealt with inside the relationship.

The point that MissyM hit was over other behavior... .which you cannot protect yourself from in the same simple way.

MissyM and Grey Kitty note a key factor in our relationships.  Setting a boundary "if things don't improve significantly then the relationship ends" and sticking to the boundary, as painful as it would be, sometimes does result in improvement.  A sort of Brinkmanship... .who blinks first... .irresistible force (pwBPD) against the immovable object (us with firm boundaries)... .

Regarding the 'control' aspect mentioned above, I experienced an accusation of that.  My then-stbEx's lawyer was questioning me after we first separated and we had protection orders from each other, he tried two tactics.  He tried to use the fact that I weighed more than my spouse as a reason for her to be afraid of me.  (That doesn't make sense, our son was smaller than both of us, was our son to be afraid of us?  But still he tried.)  And he asked me if I wanted her back.  I suspected this was so he could support his strategy that I was a controller and wanted her back under my control.  I answered, "No, not the way she is."

From my posts on other boards, obviously legal, custody and parenting concerns have to take priority there, but I had commented about my view of the difference between "Staying" and "Staying for Now".  Note that this is my perspective arrived at over time.  Staying is not an absolute, as though you cannot reconsider prior decisions and attempts and their results.  Also, consider the purpose of Staying, is it to learn to live with conflict and perhaps even abuse or to gain skills for better communication and better, firmer boundaries?

A common misconception many people have, including our newly arrived members, is that they had to 'Stay'... .  Unfortunately, 'Staying' is a counterproductive concept if the other spouse is not in meaningful therapy and making solid progress toward recovery... .

For example, many if not most of us, myself included, stayed in the relationship longer than we should have because we thought "Staying" under any circumstances was the best example.  It isn't, not if Staying meant being appeasing or a muddy doormat, having weak boundaries, allowing invalidating behaviors, etc.  Rather, we need to accept we can't force the other person to change, all we can change is our own behaviors, boundaries and actions.  That covers many aspects.

• We need to be proactive rather than reactive.  Otherwise we'll always be one step behind.



• We need to be problem-solving and assertive in court, don't be accepting of the stereotypes of past decades.  Let the court know you have some solutions to the conflict and obstructions attempted by the ex.  Silence and passivity are not for us.  If we don't ask, then likely we won't get it.



• We need firm boundaries.  Since we can't influence the other parent by very much, this applies mostly to us, what we will accept and what we will do if something is unacceptable.

[MissyM]

Unfortunately, 'Staying' is a counterproductive concept if the other spouse is not in meaningful therapy and making solid progress toward recovery... .

I wholeheartedly agree with that statement!  And to be clear it wasn't just the addictive behaviors that I needed to change with my dBPDh, the blaming behavior is #1 on the list of things I no longer tolerate.  When he tries to blame me for something, I say that I am sorry he is upset and I won't take that on.   This has been so freeing for me, putting his issues off of my plate.  At this point he is willing to acknowledge it, apologize and move on.  Really, great progress for both of us.

Mike, if you want change it has to start with you.  I believe the first place to start is boundaries.

[Mike_confused]

Grey kitty,

i really am a master at setting and enforcing boundaries - a friggin' master - and that ability of mine spins my BPD wife up like a steam turbine.  I really have no idea why this wonderful woman with BPD would every have targeted me because I am no push-over, I am out spoken, and have never been know to be one to tolerate BS.  I will say I am also considered decent familiy man that puts the care of others first.    Maybe that is my weak spot.   

As far as boundaries:   I told her to knock her crap off because I had enough abuse and ridicule.   Then I went to hunting camp and have not spoken to her in 10 days.  I have received a few mild almost-apologies in the form of text messages.  I have not responded yet.

So I will probably go back.   She will be fine for a part of the coming year, and then go off the tracks once again.  I hope she can at least wait until next November to get on the crazy train again, so I can just head back to camp.


On the high side of things, it has been a great 10 days at camp.

[vortex of confusion]

i really am a master at setting and enforcing boundaries - a friggin' master - and that ability of mine spins my BPD wife up like a steam turbine. 

Is there a possibility that your boundaries are too rigid? From what I have read, having too many boundaries that are too rigid can be just as bad as having no boundaries at all. Something to think about!

[Mike_confused]

I doubt it.   I guess I am am at the point where she treats me better or I leave.   I am no longer going to carry the full weight of this relationship.  It has exhausted me.   I love her, I support her and I care about her.  She is not worth my health however.

I suppose I am using this post to vent, but I am serious and she believes that I am.   I am better at understanding and presenting myself to her to avoid triggers.  However, she still goes off.

BPD or not, she had better understand that I am not kidding.  If she is trying to create some self-fulfilling prophesy that I will abandon her, well, great job!   She is well on her way to forcing me to do just that.

Forgive me one and all readers for this ranting.  I told my BPDwife to control her mouth toward me or I am gone.  If she was not BPD would I tolerate such abuse?  Not likely.   BPD is an EXPLANATION, but it is not an excuse.

I have a place to go.

[Mike_confused]

One additional thought:

Does anyone remember the movie "Groundhog Day"?

[Grey Kitty]

i really am a master at setting and enforcing boundaries - a friggin' master - and that ability of mine spins my BPD wife up like a steam turbine.

Mike, I want to believe you, but I'm wondering. Lots of members here have mastered enforcing boundaries, and this isn't the typical result.

It *is* typical to get an intense extinction burst the first time you start enforcing boundaries. After that extinction burst, the boundaries aren't tested often, and the abusive behavior becomes an easy-to-deflect and infrequent problem.

Can you describe in detail a recent time where you enforced a boundary and your wife spun out of control?

[Mike_confused]

Kitty,

thanks for the thoughtful interest you have shown, but you are truly missing the entire point of this post:  I am explaining that I am tired of years of being the one to contain the fire, set boundaries, etc.   Essentially what this training about BPD tells me is that I have to respect myself - which I most certainly do - and then tolerate behavior that I would not tolerate from a 7 year old from the woman that should be the closest person in the world to me.

The synopsis of this post is I am not sure she is worth it. 

[ForeverDad]

The problem with setting a boundary/ultimatum of sorts is that she may promise to behave better but unless she's really working on herself - usually in meaningful therapy - it won't last.  Then how will you know whether she's just briefly "fallen off the wagon" with a relapse (relapses will happen) or is just going through her recurrent cycles again?

I am explaining that I am tired of years of being the one to contain the fire, set boundaries, etc.   Essentially what this training about BPD tells me is that I have to respect myself - which I most certainly do - and then tolerate behavior that I would not tolerate from a 7 year old from the woman that should be the closest person in the world to me.

The synopsis of this post is I am not sure she is worth it.

No, you do not have to tolerate it.  If your boundaries over the years were not enough, then you can accept that reality.  The education and insight gained here can help you make an informed and more confident decision that you can live with, one that won't leave you second guessing or guilting yourself with "what ifs" and "if onlys" for years to come.

If in 7 years she hasn't made sufficient changes to make life at least somewhat enjoyable for you, what difference will more time make?

Groundhog Day.  Oh yes, eventually the guy gets it right.  I just watched a movie that had a similar theme of do-over days... .A Christmas Wedding Date "After being fired from her high-powered job, Rebecca heads back home to see her mom and attend her friend's small-town wedding on Christmas Eve. Initially convinced that the trip is a terrible mistake, especially her botched romantic conversation with former beau, Chad, Rebecca soon learns that, indeed, you can go home again and again -- until you get it right."

[Mike_confused]

Dad,

yes the education and insight are helpful and bring me the confidence that comes with understanding what is going on around me.  This education on the BPD topic also makes me realize that most of the burden is squarely on me.   She is seeing a therapist, but who the Hell knows what is actually said there.    Boundaries do not solve everything.  I have asked my BPDw many times that if I am indeed the cause of all the bad things in her life, why in God's name would she stay with me?   Crickets at that point.

My whole point in the post is that if we are to stay together, she will have to improve also, BPD or not.   If the illness prevents her from doing so... .

[Grey Kitty]

This is the staying board, so I'm posting from a perspective of trying to improve the situation you are living in. I'm not trying to convince you that you should stay--that choice is yours alone. Sorry if it seems like I'm pressuring you.

... .and then tolerate behavior that I would not tolerate from a 7 year old from the woman that should be the closest person in the world to me.

For me, boundary enforcement has the exact opposite result and motivation: NOT tolerating that sort of behavior, and not letting myself be subjected to it.

That's why I asked for a detailed example of how you tried to do boundary enforcement and had this result.

[nightmoves]

Curious question.

I agree that we all need to set boundries. For ourselves. I also muse that MANY of us Non's... .did not come into these r/s's very good at doing that.

So a question.

Let's say ... .we have become incredibly good at:

Setting boundaries

WHAT though... .are we then left with?

We have set expert boundaries so as to not get abused, raged upon, blamed... .in our presence.

But - what are we left with in the way of a kind, affectionate, caring, intimate, predictable, secure, partner?

I think what the OP is frustrated about is that the tools and methods seem to only provide a strategy to withstand the many sieges.

And - if he is good enough at it... .they either "seem" less... .or they actually become less when not a target there to aim at.

SO ... .I too worked VERY hard at reading, learning, practicing themany toolsto better adjust to the disorder.

What happened to me seemed that the BETTER I got.

The WORSE she got.

I am guessing here... .but the MORE i created a boundary... .space... a and the LESS I took the blame... .was the target... .did NOT try to enmesh and be as codependent... .

THE MORE... .dysregulated she got. The nore DEPRESSED she got. The MORE irrational she got. The ANGRIER she got.

And I THINK... .is was because ALL of this STUFF... .this TURMOIL within her... from YEARS... .had NO "plausible" or "excusable" place to go. No outward place or person to blame.

SO ... .then what?

There is no doubt the OP - like all of us - loves his spouse.

OR we would not be climbing up a mountain... .

I think that as we are getting better... .and higher on the mountain... .we are beginning to see beyond just reducing the conflict and the chaos... .but we are looking for what is there when the explosions stop.

[maxsterling]

Essentially what this training about BPD tells me is that I have to respect myself - which I most certainly do - and then tolerate behavior that I would not tolerate from a 7 year old from the woman that should be the closest person in the world to me.

Mike - I certainly hear where you are coming from (and I am only about 2 years in!)  This morning she had to go to the dentist at 7am because of pain from her wisdom teeth extraction a week and a half ago.  I agreed to drive her (she's still taking some pain killers, so a good idea for me to drive her) She set the alarm, it woke her, she pressed snooze, she woke and grumbled, then snooze again... .I got up, put my clothes on, emptied the dishwasher, and periodically went in there to try and get her out of bed.  And she would grumble and thrash and kick and whine about not wanting to get up.  And I would go back into the other room to continue readying myself.  At one point, she screamed at me "why are you just sitting there in the other room?  Why aren't you helping me!"  I went into the bedroom, and asked her bluntly what she wanted me to do.  She said she didn't know.  She thrashed and grumbled some more, blamed me, and I told her that I don't know what else to do except forcefully get her out of bed, and I was not going to do that.  She then screamed at me "you are so FXXing annoying!"  I walked out of the room, and left her be by herself.  But geez - it's like getting a 14 year old teenager out of bed!  Yeah, I can leave the room, tell her to get her own self out of bed, not get involved in trying to help her with something a 39 year old should know how to do by herself... .but if the blaming and the general bad attitude don't stop - I can see how after years of this I can just be done with it all.  I can enforce boundaries to not allow the childish behavior in my presence, but that doesn't mean it still won't be there and I still won't hear the negativity and grumbles and swearing and doors slamming when I am in the next room.  

I feel for you.  

[MissyM]

But - what are we left with in the way of a kind, affectionate, caring, intimate, predictable, secure, partner?

I think what the OP is frustrated about is that the tools and methods seem to only provide a strategy to withstand the many sieges.

That is why I believe the tools and the methods are only a piece of the puzzle.  Since BPD is on a spectrum, dealing with someone that has mild BPD symptoms the tools might be enough but it would not be enough for me in my relationship with my dBPDh.  We all have to find our own path and what will work for us.  Nothing wrong in not willing to stay in a relationship with an abusive BPD that will not get help and hold themselves accountable for their behavior.

[MissyM]

Max

I got up, put my clothes on, emptied the dishwasher, and periodically went in there to try and get her out of bed.

I just have to ask why you would go back to get her out of bed?  I know putting myself in that parental role for my dBPDh for years, really backfired on our relationship and allowed his behavior to escalate.

[maxsterling]

I just have to ask why you would go back to get her out of bed?  I know putting myself in that parental role for my dBPDh for years, really backfired on our relationship and allowed his behavior to escalate.

I'm kicking myself over this one and in hindsight think this was the wrong move.  I could have done nothing and she would blame me, or I would try and fail and she would still blame me (as she did).  I really thought about this at the time, and my justification was that 1) she is taking pain killers and I would feel responsible if she woke up late, missed her appointment, had to reschedule for when I was at work and got into a car wreck.  2) She absolutely needed to make this appointment.  It wasn't like it was a hair appointment or a job interview, but something quite a bit more important that if she missed could have health consequences.  I am proud of myself for at least asking her what else I could do to get her out of bed and for making the comment that it's not my job to get her out of bed and that I am not going to forcefully get her out of bed.  Mad as she was, I think she got the message.  I think it sinks in when I use the "help me understand" or "what can I do" and she has no answer. 

[vortex of confusion]

Dad,

yes the education and insight are helpful and bring me the confidence that comes with understanding what is going on around me.  This education on the BPD topic also makes me realize that most of the burden is squarely on me.   She is seeing a therapist, but who the Hell knows what is actually said there.    Boundaries do not solve everything.  I have asked my BPDw many times that if I am indeed the cause of all the bad things in her life, why in God's name would she stay with me?   Crickets at that point.

My whole point in the post is that if we are to stay together, she will have to improve also, BPD or not.   If the illness prevents her from doing so... .

I am right there with you on this Mike! I don't care how much I do or don't love my husband I am tired. Before finding these boards several months ago, I felt like maybe there was a little bit of hope that things would change. Last year, he told me to give him a year after he started his 12 step program. Somewhere along the way, he told me point blank that he couldn't work on our relationship and that he was only focusing on himself and conquering his addiction. It is always one excuse after another. Right now, I think he is running a bit scared and is grasping at whatever straws he can find. He has only had 4 or 5 sessions since he started going over the summer. Therapy and his 12 step program don't seem to be making much difference. Well, he is trying a little harder but he wants to be praised like a child for every little thing he does. Every tiny bit of progress that he makes he has to tell me over and over and over again. Not only that, but he adds, "I'm not looking for praise but I did blah, blah, blah." It has become too much for me to deal with so I am trying to work towards finding an exit strategy. The stuff on here is to help me keep my sanity until I can get myself in a better position to leave.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[howcanI?]

God love ya', Mike, and everyone else!  I just this minute got done with a l-o-o-n-n-g-g session of talking/communicating/validating out the wazoo.  Once I would have experienced a burst of relief, joy, and affection, because it seemed that all would be good once everyone understood and accepted each others' feelings. Now I know it is only a matter of time (minutes or days) when it all turns to sh** again.  So tired that only one person's feelings count in this house; the dog's needs LITERALLY come before mine!  Suggested he find a different place to live last night because he is so very miserable with me.  Etc., etc., etc.  Exhausting.  Love to all.

[Cat Familiar]

I am right there with you on this Mike! I don't care how much I do or don't love my husband I am tired... .he is trying a little harder but he wants to be praised like a child for every little thing he does. Every tiny bit of progress that he makes he has to tell me over and over and over again.

Yes, it really is like dealing with a child sometimes. I thought I married a man, not a toddler, adolescent or teenager and somehow in the course of a week, he manages to be all three.

I just this minute got done with a l-o-o-n-n-g-g session of talking/communicating/validating out the wazoo.  Once I would have experienced a burst of relief, joy, and affection, because it seemed that all would be good once everyone understood and accepted each others' feelings. Now I know it is only a matter of time (minutes or days) when it all turns to sh** again.  So tired that only one person's feelings count in this house; the dog's needs LITERALLY come before mine! 

The incredible self-centeredness pwBPD display is mind boggling. Only his feelings count, and if I try to tell him how I feel, he accuses me of making it all about myself. The projection is astounding and the lack of self awareness is dumbfounding. Even my cat has more people skills... .

[MissyM]

He has only had 4 or 5 sessions since he started going over the summer. Therapy and his 12 step program don't seem to be making much difference.

Well, with that approach it won't make much of a difference.  My therapist used to say, just sitting in a meeting and expecting to get better is like sitting in a hen house and expecting to turn into a chicken.  (God I love that woman!)  Anyway, it takes a great deal more effort and work on their part to see a change.  Intense weekly therapy, medication, group therapy, sponsor and working the 12 steps.  Most of them are so afraid to change that it takes something big for them to accept that much work.  Talking about BPD addicts here but think the amount of work it requires for change is just as hard for BPDs without addictions (although I think all the BPDs I know IRL have addictions).

[Jack_50]

Hi all,

Sorry to hear about all your troubles.

No offense, but I think you all need to focus more on yourselves.  Yes, your partner is exhausting you, but you can refuse to be part of it if you are not ready.

You can decide to be there for him/her half of the time, and for yourself the other half.  Take a break from it all, and learn to listen to your own inner voice.  When under stress, you lose the ability to understand your own needs, and that ability will only come back when you're relaxed.

So give yourself the opportunity to get back to base, and refuse your partner's actions/requests/statements if you feel you need to recover from previous turmoil.  It is your human right, but you have to demand it before you get it.

Sure, it will get a lot of objections initially; but that is only because his/her fulltime assistant suddenly decides to quit, and only work part-time.  So be it.  With consistency, all change will eventually settle in.

Yes, it will take courage, especially in the beginning.  But that is because you are not aware of how to get through emotional abuse, and stay grounded, focused and on course through the storm.  There is some good literature on it, to help you get proficient.

You owe it to yourselves.  If you don't do it, no one will... .


Jack

[waverider]

Kitty,

thanks for the thoughtful interest you have shown, but you are truly missing the entire point of this post:  I am explaining that I am tired of years of being the one to contain the fire, set boundaries, etc.   Essentially what this training about BPD tells me is that I have to respect myself - which I most certainly do - and then tolerate behavior that I would not tolerate from a 7 year old from the woman that should be the closest person in the world to me.

The synopsis of this post is I am not sure she is worth it.  

You are right. The tools, including boundaries, and indeed the purpose of the staying board is not to ensure a relationship works (as that is an impossible guarantee), as for many who benefit from being here still leave. The point is it teaches you how to get your side of the fence sorted and give your partner the best base from which to sort her side. It is to give you clarity as to the reality of the situation. What is possible and what is not.

In short, so that you can clearly and honestly, without future requests answer that very question "is it worth it?". Remove the doubt both for now, and for after you make your choice. This does not mean you have failed the purpose of the staying board it simply means you have used it effectively to reach that decision which is right for you.

It is to rid you of the "what ifs' and general undecided endless questioning. These are the things that truly waste our lives. Giving it your best shot then deciding its not for you is not wasted effort. It has still produced a result for you.

[MissyM]

Yes, it will take courage, especially in the beginning.  But that is because you are not aware of how to get through emotional abuse, and stay grounded, focused and on course through the storm.  There is some good literature on it, to help you get proficient.

I somewhat agree but not fully.  A therapist at the intensive my dBPDh and I were at (where he was diagnosed with BPD) told me the reason I didn't react well to the things my dBPDh did was because NO ONE should tolerate that behavior.  No amount of trying to respond correctly would work, I had to just set a clear boundary and walk away.  I had to get to the point of being willing to lose the relationship.  I went through quite a bit of mourning over losing the relationship.  Where the skills and lessons on this site  helped were that I learned to validate his emotional state and then walk away.  My dBPDh didn't start to respect me until this happened. It was like he was waiting for me to be the grown up before he would start making changes himself.

[Mike_confused]

All:

Thank you.   Some additional thoughts of mine on this topic:

1.  I am posting this on the staying Board because I have been posting here for about 2 years.   If I cave in to her EVERY wish I am sure we can be together for the rest of our lives.

2.  My BPDw is in a Celebrate Recovery (12 step) program for I don't know what, as well as therapy.    It really hasn't made my life any better and I am sick to death of hearing about her's.  Bottom line on this point:   I CLEARLY matter NOT IN THE LEAST to her.   She is intelligent.  Regardless of this illness, she HAS to intellectually understand she is driving me away.

3.  I have hung in with my BPD wife through all the horrible treatment over the years, all the while being used financially and for my labor.  I post my epiphany here as an extension of my experience.

4.  This epiphany of mine is best summed up by the words of another:   the pwBPD NEEDS someone to rage, kick and blame, without any consideration for that person.   That punching bag is usually their spouse.   I will pray for her, and I hope I don't go to hell for doing this, but I am leaving her ass.   She can find another poor ass.   I wish her luck.

[Mike_confused]

So we, the NON's are told up front that WE must be the ones to change because our spouse with BPD is incapable emotionally of producing change in themselves.  Now, it is finally crystal clear to me that there is no possible way in my understanding of this world that my wife with BPD could actually love me.   With that understanding, she is clearly not worth it.

This conclusion was not arrived at easily.   I guess I always suspected this in the back of my mind.   It has been a process for me.  For her, it's a friggin' endless loop.   

[MissyM]

So we, the NON's are told up from that WE must be the ones to change because our spouse with BPD is incapable emotionally of producing change in themselves.  Now, it is finally crystal clear to me that there is no possible way in my understanding of this world that my wife with BPD could actually love me.   With that understanding, she is clearly not worth it.

I am sorry, that mourning and pain are hard to accept.  I finally was able to accept that my dBPDh wasn't capable of loving me the way I needed, not at the point we were at.   The bigger truth was that I had to love and respect myself enough to not tolerate less than I deserve.  I can only ask that my dBPDh be willing to learn how to meet my needs, if his answer was no then I would have been done too.  Take care of you.

[ForeverDad]

She is intelligent.  Regardless of this illness, she HAS to intellectually understand she is driving me away.

This is a mental illness and by definition mental illness doesn't make everyday common sense.  Yes, it can be described, categorized, even written up to great lengths in text books but it still doesn't make sense.

So does she understand what she's doing?  At some level, yes.  But note that you may never know at which level.  (My ex has been out for over 9 years and not once in all those years have I heard any admission of her doing anything wrong.  Not even when I got custody, not even when I got majority parenting time.)  Her Denial is so great, she just has to keep Blaming, Blame Shifting, Controlling and Dictating.  Doesn't matter whether it is consciously or unconsciously, the entitled behavior is the same.

Looks like we'll see you over on the Family Law board.  Just a reminder, if you foresee a decision to leave, whether sooner or later, then you must be careful about any information you share with her.  In fact, think twice before sharing anything with her since it would likely be self-sabotaging and she could perceive anything shared as an invitation to use it against you.  As a last ditch all or nothing effort she could drain accounts, max out the credit cards, etc, all in a "Sherman's March To The Sea" campaign leaving nothing behind.

You will need local legal advice, better to have multiple consultations with family law attorneys to try to reduce risk of some thorny issue falling through the cracks.  Deciding to end it is not enough, you need a strategy to weather a high conflict divorce, flexible and modifiable based on her actions, reactions and overreactions.

[Mike_confused]

Fortunately,  we have only been married 4 years.   We have no children together.  Own separate houses.  We have no common property and no credit cards.   My pay is deposited in an account held only by me.   

[maxsterling]

A therapist at the intensive my dBPDh and I were at (where he was diagnosed with BPD) told me the reason I didn't react well to the things my dBPDh did was because NO ONE should tolerate that behavior.  No amount of trying to respond correctly would work, I had to just set a clear boundary and walk away.  I had to get to the point of being willing to lose the relationship.  I went through quite a bit of mourning over losing the relationship. 

Profound!  I heard the same thing from my T - "I can't tell you how to communicate better with someone who screams at you."  She basically flat out told me during my VERY FIRST SESSION that my partner likely had BPD, and that it would always be a difficult situation, and I feel confused and lost because I was being emotionally abused, and that there was nothing I could do about the abuse but refuse to participate in it.

And mourning the R/S?  I've been with her almost two years, and probably felt heartbreak at least 6 times, and yet we have never officially broken up.  I think your point about being able to accept we may lose the r/s is spot on.  I'm there intellectually, but not quite emotionally.  It seems backwards, but in order for us to exist in these r/s long term, we have to be willing to have strong boundaries and accept that such boundaries may bring about the end of the r/s.

[maxsterling]

1.  I am posting this on the staying Board because I have been posting here for about 2 years.   If I cave in to her EVERY wish I am sure we can be together for the rest of our lives.

There is no guarantee of this.  pwBPD are experts at moving the goal posts.  It is IMPOSSIBLE to satisfy every wish of hers, because she doesn't even know what her own wishes are.  They change, they contradict - IMPOSSIBLE for you to meet them.  She will still be upset and decide to end the r/s at any time, no matter how much you try to meet her needs.

2.  My BPDw is in a Celebrate Recovery (12 step) program for I don't know what, as well as therapy.    It really hasn't made my life any better and I am sick to death of hearing about her's.  Bottom line on this point:   I CLEARLY matter NOT IN THE LEAST to her.   She is intelligent.  Regardless of this illness, she HAS to intellectually understand she is driving me away.

Mine was in such a recovery program before I met her, and considered going away to some kind of sex addict boot camp.  Same thing in my r/s - I get to hear about how crappy her life is during all waking hours of the day.  And should I complain about one thing that is stressing me, she is right there telling my what I should or shouldn't do.  Very frustrating.  And I know it feels like you don't matter to her.  You probably do matter to her, but not in the way you want.  My SO is intelligent, too.  I know she understands intellectually that she is driving me away.  She expresses this to me, worries about it, knows she has driven partners away in the past, YET CONTINUES THE SAME BEHAVIOR.  That's baffling and frustrating, and lets me know that this is a serious mental illness.  My guess is that if your wife is in therapies and recovery programs, she fully knows she has unhealthy behaviors that drive people away.  She went to the therapy and the recovery program because she is has tried to stop those behaviors on her own and failed. 

4.  This epiphany of mine is best summed up by the words of another:   the pwBPD NEEDS someone to rage, kick and blame, without any consideration for that person.   That punching bag is usually their spouse.   I will pray for her, and I hope I don't go to hell for doing this, but I am leaving her ass.   She can find another poor ass.   I wish her luck.

Your emotions here are completely understandable!  I applaud you on your decisions.  I would suggest, however, to try and let go of some of the raw anger and bitterness before you break it off.  It's hard, but you will be better off for yourself if you can find a way to come to a place where you understand that she has serious mental health issues, that you don't want to live with it, and that you are making the choice for yourself to move on. 

[Mike_confused]

Maxsterling,

I am actually not angry at my BPD wife, although I can see how my written words give that appearance.   To another point of yours:  my wife said that she also has a habit of driving people away.   She admitted this with no context, and I did not get the sense that she was thinking of me when she said it.

[outside9x]

HI,

I agree with Nightmoves.  I know I am still in love at times with my exBPDgf, and many times, I wish I tried this or that, but in the end, and this is my feeling, what are we doing it for?  

Isn't the very point to be happy and love and take care of one another?  Learning tools and ways to handle is extremely helpful, and beneficial to each, but only to a point.  Somewhere, it has to get better, they have to seek treatment and see themselves, become a full partner.  You can't be getting beat on or turn off your feeling in order to defuse them and calm yourself.  You can't be that Zombie, you want, or I think , I do, want to celebrate life.  If the good days far outweigh the bad, stay.  That's just common sense.  Tools help, but only so much, you have to be true to yourself too.    

Otherwise it's 24 hrs, of living with a ticking bomb, and you are a very good bomb expert, hoping everyday, to somehow diffuse it and make it tolerable until they swing the other way, then that's a tough deal week in and week out.

 That, my friends is no way to go through life, yes, for a while, if you can see that they are getting better, but no way to live if that doesn't happen or they can't see this.   Because you need love and care for YOU too!  Staying or leaving depends upon you, and your health (mental & emotional)  .  I  think Mike will make the right choice, when it comes.  He seems to know all the tools, he compassionate, and loving, and deserve that in return.  Right now, is recharging, and is away which is perfect.  Good luck Mike!

[nightmoves]

Max... .

Excellent last post.

Wow... .it actually "pains me" to see that you have become such an expert and so articulate at this disorder.

Pain me - as the ONLY way to get so knowledgeable... .is to be dragged for a long time over the gravel road... .

That said... .I wanted to throw what ... .for me... .(and I see this in so many angst written posts by Non's) ... .my BPDw ... .is HIGHLY skilled in CONVINCING me this is ALL my fault.

I get stronger... .can begin to see I cannot take this anymore... .YET... .as so many of us (if not all of us) WANT THIS TO WORK.

SO ... .when they RAGE out that it is YOU ... .that is responsible for this. YOU to blame for this. When you did this... .or that... .or this... .

For me... .it sends me into a tailspin.

DAMN... .it is ME... .

I am losing this because of me. I made a mistake... .here... .there... .

It is MY fault.

And my resolve to fix it... .do better... .BE better... .NOT lose this ... .kicks in.

And I am in the web... .again... .

[MissyM]

SO ... .when they RAGE out that it is YOU ... .that is responsible for this. YOU to blame for this. When you did this... .or that... .or this... .

For me... .it sends me into a tailspin.

DAMN... .it is ME... .

I am losing this because of me. I made a mistake... .here... .there... .

It is MY fault.

And my resolve to fix it... .do better... .BE better... .NOT lose this ... .kicks in.

And I am in the web... .again... .

Night, my advice to you wold be to recognize when this starts and say you need a break.  Then stepping away and reaching out here or someone IRL that can help you separate what is you and what is your BPDw.  I know for me, when I am sick that I am more likely to fall prey to manipulation.  Each of us has our own unique triggers for falling into codependent behaviors.  Since you know her raging and blaming you are triggers, make a plan ahead of time how you are going to handle it next time because there will be a next time.

[MissyM]

Mine was in such a recovery program before I met her, and considered going away to some kind of sex addict boot camp.

Max, IMHO that would probably have been good for her.  People treating sex addiction are more and more well versed in personality disorders.  Most of the help we have gotten has started there.  Most treatment centers these days are dual treatment and will treat a personality disorder along with the sex addiction, which is where my dBPDh was finally diagnosed with BPD.

[Cat Familiar]

Since you know her raging and blaming you are triggers, make a plan ahead of time how you are going to handle it next time because there will be a next time.

Yes, there always is a next time. I hear a lot of pain from people here and questioning why we continue to subject ourselves to these behaviors. I can choose a metaphor as the aikido master who deflects every blow or I can wonder what need in me created this relationship in the beginning and how does it serve me now?

I get tired of being the one to deflect the attack and I see that my poor relationship history created a need to be idealized at the beginning. I just wasn't aware that I would be demonized later.

[MissyM]

I can choose a metaphor as the aikido master who deflects every blow or I can wonder what need in me created this relationship in the beginning and how does it serve me now?

I get tired of being the one to deflect the attack and I see that my poor relationship history created a need to be idealized at the beginning. I just wasn't aware that I would be demonized later.

Good insights into yourself.  Sometimes we learn a lesson from a relationship and it is time to move on and sometimes the lesson is for both parties to change.  I am a big believer that both parties can change and heal themselves but it takes 2 for that to happen.

[Cat Familiar]

I am a big believer that both parties can change and heal themselves but it takes 2 for that to happen.

My husband has taken steps to change and I'm definitely seeing improvement. I guess I'm just at a burnout phase where dealing with some of the craziness has eroded my optimism.

[MissyM]

I guess I'm just at a burnout phase where dealing with some of the craziness has eroded my optimism.

  I have had plenty of those days, too.  Something you can do to take care of yourself apart from your dBPDh?  Had to learn to focus on that a lot in my own recovery.  Still can get sidetracked taking care of everything in life and forget myself. 

[Cat Familiar]

I guess I'm just at a burnout phase where dealing with some of the craziness has eroded my optimism.

 I have had plenty of those days, too.  Something you can do to take care of yourself apart from your dBPDh?  Had to learn to focus on that a lot in my own recovery.  Still can get sidetracked taking care of everything in life and forget myself.  

Actually I'm very good at taking care of myself and my husband would claim we live separate lives. Certainly we have different interests--I'm outside most days taking care of animals, the garden, riding horses, fixing things. He's indoors all day, watching TV, buying camera gear, manipulating his photographs on the computer. I go to bed at 10:30 every night and typically sleep by myself since he stays up late.

I'm not one to feel lonely typically because I do have friends, unlike him who is rather socially isolated. I think I'm finally realizing how annoyed I've been for years having to cater to his ever-changing moods. I've learned to overlook my feelings and just get on with things, but with doing therapy and coming to terms with the fact that he's mentally ill, I find that I'm pissed off (at myself) for getting into this situation in the first place.

[MissyM]

I find that I'm pissed off (at myself) for getting into this situation in the first place.

  I spent at least a year pissed off, it began about 6 months into therapy and lasted almost a year.   Really helped to work all of that out in therapy and 12 step meetings, turns out I had a right to be angry and having stuffed it for years just led it to exploding.  I feel much better now but boy I could have done some damage there for a while!   I highly suggest sticking with the therapy.

[Cat Familiar]

I find that I'm pissed off (at myself) for getting into this situation in the first place.

  I spent at least a year pissed off, it began about 6 months into therapy and lasted almost a year.   Really helped to work all of that out in therapy and 12 step meetings, turns out I had a right to be angry and having stuffed it for years just led it to exploding.  I feel much better now but boy I could have done some damage there for a while!   I highly suggest sticking with the therapy.

Yeah, it's well worth it for me. We did couples counseling for a year with this woman who is a psychologist who has experience with addictions. I chose her because I needed someone really intelligent that my husband couldn't bamboozle with his extensive lawyer tricks.

It was slightly helpful, but not much improved. It kind of reminded me of when I was in college and worked at what was euphemistically known as a "day treatment center." Basically it was a place where mentally ill people were warehoused during the day so they wouldn't get into trouble. Actually a better option than nowadays when these same people would be homeless.

As part of my job description, I was supposed to help conduct "therapy groups" which were surreal gatherings of people who had situational depression, schizophrenia, autism and a variety of other mental disorders. As you could imagine with such a diverse group, there was no shared narrative and it was a complete waste of time, a lot like doing therapy with him. I spent much of my time there picking up the pills that the "clients" had covertly spit out.

What was helpful with the couples counseling is that the therapist got a really good idea of who my husband is and how difficult it is to communicate with him. On a few occasions, he turned his rage on her too. It became very clear that once he gets dysregulated, he hasn't a shred of compassion for anyone else.

I recently had an epiphany that my lingering rotator cuff injury which happened, before we got together ten years ago, when I was sawing a limb off a tree after receiving a letter from him out of the blue. We had had a brief relationship that didn't go anywhere due to his issues and I had spent years feeling unrequited love that kept me from getting seriously involved with anyone else. So as I'm sawing away, I'm visualizing cutting the heartstrings to him and I tear my rotator cuff.

Like lots of people, I just ignore the injury, thinking it will go away and it does to some extent. But with every movement he makes toward me (and we live hundreds of miles apart), I have recurrent flareups of my initial injury. When he looks for a job locally, I can barely lift my arm. When he moves here, it gets worse. When he moves in with me, it's as bad as it's ever been.

After many years of this, I finally see an orthopedist and have X-rays and an MRI. I'm told to live with it until it gets so bad that I need a full shoulder replacement. After years of physical therapy, it's tolerable for the most part. Yoga helps too.

The interesting thing is that it's been a barometer of my relationship--it's almost like a warning to me when it acts up--like it tried to warn me off of him in the first place. Is this too weird or does anyone else here somatize their emotional issues with actual physical symptoms?

[waverider]

 At the end of the day, the Staying Board is all about working out what it is all about, working out what you can do and what you cant. Above all your own values, boundaries and limits.

If you choose to call it a day hopefully you will have utilized this facility to come at your choice in an educated and informed way. We dont have to do any of this, it is a choice, and like any choice we can choose not to. In your heart if you have come to the conclusion that it is not heading towards a place you are likely to be content with you have to follow your heart.

You have tried the 'what ifs', and found the answers so you will not be left wondering or questioning the decision.

This board does not condemn us to Staying, simply asks us to commit to trying our best whilst within a RS.

best of luck with whatever your future holds

Waverider

[Rapt Reader]

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