Painting Others Black

[earthgirl]

Another exhausting Thanksgiving.  We go through this entire cycle where he paints people very close to him black, and then he gets over it. -- this TG, it was his best friend and his brother.  He swears (in private to me; there is rarely an actual confrontation with the person he is painting black) they are the spawn of satan, brings up years of grievances, says he is never going to see/speak to them again... .then two days later, it's all systems go, and everything is back to normal.

How to handle this?  I try to validate/SET... .but here's the problem:  it works really well while he's painting black, but then, when he's decided it's all good, he's sheepish about it all and irritated with me.  Almost like he wants me (in retrospect) to call him on the bull___ about never talking to them again, etc. 

I alternate between relief that it's not *me* being painted black, and total exhaustion.  Listening to hours of ranting, only knowing the whole time that with all of the things he is saying (as much as he believes them when he is saying them), he won't feel that way at all in two days.

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[Rapt Reader]

I alternate between relief that it's not *me* being painted black, and total exhaustion.  Listening to hours of ranting, only knowing the whole time that with all of the things he is saying (as much as he believes them when he is saying them), he won't feel that way at all in two days.

Most of us on this site know that feeling 

And it's so true that once it all blows over, the change can be mind-boggling.

I've learned to listen compassionately, nod my head sympathetically, and not say anything at all if my body language can do the validating for me--especially when I just cannot figure out what words to say anyhow!

Once the dysregulation blows over, if I've been loving and compassionate without saying anything, then I don't have to worry about any miscellaneous words I might utter coming back to haunt me 

[waverider]

The real danger is that you fall into the trap of validating their reasons why someone is black. Take it on board, then when the white comes out you are left standing all alone on the wrong side of the fence and looking like you are the one holding the grudges.

Even when you know this is happening it is very hard to stay out of it. They are just too quick for us.

It really is important that you form your own opinions of other people and stick to them, so that if you are left standing alone on the black side, it is your black side, whether it is the same opinion as your pwBPD or not. ie your choice.

Sometimes by staying out of it we end up being sterile and seemingly have no opinions. It is Ok for us to be black on someone for our own reasons

[formflier]

 

I'm considering a bit of a new tactic with this.  I have been doing much along the lines of Rapt Reader... .trying to get an "active listener"... without agreeing or disagreeing. 

However... .that can hook me into listening to a nice long load of... .whatever is coming out... .and that is tiring.

My hope is that that once I've heard the story once I can ask for time to consider it... .so I can give a good response.

Why do this?  Well... recently... .she exclaimed... ."talking to you is like talking to a brick wall".  I said... I'm sorry you feel that way... .  Then... .asked a direct question... .do you want me to offer my opinion... .or just listen.  To which she answered... .rhetorically... why would I be talking to you?

So... because it was a subject I cared about... .my kids... .I offered my prescription... .I didn't mention hers... .mine was different.  So... she asks... ."why am I always so critical of her... "

to which I ask for help understand what I said that was critical... .to which she didn't really answer... .

Tiring... .

So... hopefully a request for time to think... .and I'll come back later at a time of my choosing to listen more... .or give an opinion.

Thoughts?  Anyone tried this?

[SlyQQ]

As long as what they say is trueish i would let it pass it is very dangerous game to support it any further very

[waverider]

So... hopefully a request for time to think... .and I'll come back later at a time of my choosing to listen more... .or give an opinion.

Only works if you haven't actually zoned out and let it all wash without registering. My problem is I tend to get teflon ears when this is going on it stays in my ear as long as required to respond, if necessary, then its gone. To take it in and think it about it can suck me in. Point is I dont want to have an opinion. So to say that would simply be a bluff that I am likely to get called on and be ultimately invalidating.

Though I have done a variation son the theme "can we talk about this later/after dinner when I have more time to take it in etc" with the high likelihood the moment would have past by then

[formflier]

Though I have done a variation son the theme "can we talk about this later/after dinner when I have more time to take it in etc" with the high likelihood the moment would have past by then

Much better... .because that is clear that in the meantime... .you will not be thinking or ruminating on it.

I like it... !

[earthgirl]

He *always* reverts, it always blows over.  And I know the time frame, too, because it's always the same.  So FormFlier's suggestion is a good one for me.  I'm going to try that... .it's concrete and something I can implement immediately.  Thank you!   

[maxsterling]

Wow - missed this thread until now - I certainly know how this goes!  There is always someone on her black list.  And I too sometimes am just thankful it is not me.  Here is how I try to handle it:

1)  Listen, but give just enough feedback and eye contact that she knows I am listening.

2)  Don't take sides. 

3)  Try to figure out what is actually going on, and validate that.  OK to validate that so and so is acting self-centered on some particular issue.  But don't validate that so and so is an evil witch.

4)  I've noticed after the original anger wears off (a few hours to a few days) there is a period of remorse, at which time a constructive discussion of the issue can be made. 

But I agree with how exhausting this is.  This is an almost daily issue in my r/s - her complaining about how bad someone else is.  I feel like I am spending an awful lot of time just listening to her complaints about other people.  My dad did the same with my mom.  He'd spend an hour every night listening to her complain about others.

[formflier]

He *always* reverts, it always blows over.  And I know the time frame, too, because it's always the same.  So FormFlier's suggestion is a good one for me.  I'm going to try that... .it's concrete and something I can implement immediately.  Thank you!   

Please come back to this thread and let us know how it went!   

[formflier]

But I agree with how exhausting this is.  This is an almost daily issue in my r/s - her complaining about how bad someone else is.  I feel like I am spending an awful lot of time just listening to her complaints about other people.  My dad did the same with my mom.  He'd spend an hour every night listening to her complain about others.

Max,

Can I ask... .or add to this... .that most of the complaining is about the intentions or thoughts of other people? 

I'm considering adding a boundary or behavior change (not sure exactly yet what to call it)

Try this on for size.

If she complains or wants to talk about what someone actually did or said... .I'm in... I'll even take sides.

But... .if she complains about what another lady (usually) is thinking or what that person will do in the future and why she will do it (again... .all pure fantasy and speculation).  I don't even want to listen.

Now... .I don't want to be harsh... .so somehow I need to figure out a way to detach the conversation or start a different one.  Such as... ."I can see why that is troubling... "  And then "Boy... .that meatloaf was wonderful that you cooked.  When can you make it again... ?"

If she redirects to what the evil witch is thinking... .I need to figure out what to say when I walk away... .or stop talking about it.  Help me out with that.

Why do I bring this up.?  Because I am not going to end up like Max's Dad... and listen to fantastic complaints about other people for an hour.  I have done this some in the past... .and I can see this "creeping" back in.  Recently my wife has been substitute teaching some... .so lots more contact with other teachers (females) 

You guessed it... .they think she is incompetent... .they have all gone in and rigged the computer system so she won't ever be able to work in that classroom again... .she only got the job because of my position... .they don't like her because of my position... .they are intimidated by her degree (yesterday she subbed for an assistant... .and my wife has more qualifications that the lead teacher... .my wife did good job of validating the lead and telling her she did a great job... )

And... .yes... this was tiring... .and I would get "hit" with some of the flying accusations.  I deflected easily... .and there was no emotional upset or triggering in me... .but it was tiring.

Thoughts? No rush on this... .just something I've been thinking about to take another "baby step" in the right direction.

Max... .your wife is a teacher... .right?

[maxsterling]

Can I ask... .or add to this... .that most of the complaining is about the intentions or thoughts of other people? 

Yes.  Mostly complaining because someone else did something to hurt her, and questioning on how black to paint the other person as a result of it. 

If she complains or wants to talk about what someone actually did or said... .I'm in... I'll even take sides.

But... .if she complains about what another lady (usually) is thinking or what that person will do in the future and why she will do it (again... .all pure fantasy and speculation).  I don't even want to listen.

I understand where you are coming from, bur good luck    Actually, my worry would be that she would not know the difference and you would exhaust yourself explaining it to her.  I think boundaries need to be more cut/dry - "I won't be present for abuse", "I won't have relationship discussions after 11pm" .  I'm just saying that I think my SO can understand those simpler boundaries, but trying to end some conversations but not others would probably stress her out with confusion.  I'd suggest some method of validating and changing the subject.  My wife wanted to complain about her friends last night, and I tried motivating the conversation in a more constructive way by asking, "It sounds like you don't have too many friends who will just listen and not try and fix.  Do you have any friends like that?"  She agreed, then I added, "I think we all need that sometimes - someone to just listen, not judge or offer suggestions.  That kind of friend is hard to find because most people aren't raised that way."  And it worked!

Yes, she is a teacher.  Or was.  She never lasted more than 6 months at any job, and now probably is going to do something else.  Her complaints were similar to your wife's - things along the lines of everyone else hating her. 

For the record, my mom is not BPD, but she does have many BPD traits, just not severe enough or numerous enough to really put her in the BPD category.  Abandonment issues - yes, but by no means "frantic".  When she would complain to my dad, it was mostly about work (she worked in a school).  It got worse when my dad was living out of town for awhile building a house.  She's call him every night and vent for an hour.  But since she has retired, it's gotten soo much better.  She still likes to talk and talk about others, but at least its mostly positive.  Of course my wife can't stand it, probably because she's the same way!

[formflier]

 

Yeah... .I knew that many of the others would be chuckling at my goal... .and I realize... .it's a tall order and is not "cut and dry".

Maybe... .the more cut and dry thing is the way I end a conversation like that.

So... .pile in validation... .and try to get a resolution like Max suggested... .if that works... .awesome.  I'm a hero!  (at least in my own mind... )

If not... .how do I gracefully exit the convo.


How do I explain this... .in a non-dysregulated time... .in a way that makes sense.

"My values don't allow me to speculate on the thoughts of others... .I focus on their actual behavior."

I know the statement above needs work to be "presented" to a pwBPD... .but that is an accurate statement of my values.

I especially don't like my wife to get mad about my thoughts... .and what... .and why I might do things in the future... .  Especially when I don't have those thoughts.

Every once in a great while... .she gets it right... .and I will agree with her about my thoughts.  It's been a while. 

Do you think I should stop doing this?  Just not comment... .either way... .right or wrong?

[waverider]

It may be a tall order but every step in the right way is helpful.

I always liked the line that "Assumption is the mother of all Stuff Ups".

We all do it.

My partners counselors are always telling her one small step at a time, as she is always jumping to assumptions and conclusions. Making assumptions is not one small step at a time it is playing leapfrog and can lead you blindly off a cliff.

I have gone down the path of "if you want to discuss this we can do it together, but I need to work through it one step at a time so I can understand it better. I can't do that I make assumptions about things I don't know for sure, as I wasn't there"

ie I try to slow it down because "I'm a bit thick" not because she is wrong. Doesn't always work, but often it takes the steam out of it. Sometimes it justs diverts the issue onto me being a "bit thick"

Responses like "What you dont believe me?" are common. The reponse to that is "its not about what I believe it is about what I know". Believing and knowing are two different things, and part of the issue that pwBPD have. The whole feelings=facts equation. What I am trying to do is make it about what I believe and what I know about the issue directly.

[Cat Familiar]

I am so glad I read this thread. My h has a lot of issues with his sisters. I've made a variety of mistakes in responding to him.

Years ago, I heard his complaints and tried to give my opinion of their behavior and the context. He complained that he wasn't "part of the family" and I said that since they live on the opposite coast and are so involved with their children that perhaps he was reading too much into the situation. He then accused me of "taking their side." Now I know how invalidating this was.

The next time he complained, I agreed with him and brought up my own issues with one of them. Then, once he was feeling better, I was the bad guy for not liking his sister--the old "blood is thicker than water"--"She's my family," he said, glaring at me.

The next time I didn't say anything. "You don't care."

I'm at that point. I just want to tell him, "Grow up," but of course, I won't.

[SlyQQ]

Very much agree with formflier on this ( much more eloquently put than my own ealier comment on only agree with what is trueish otherwise things can get out of control ) BPD needs boundaries they are hard to implement but once they start chipping little holes in the dyke you are soon going to run out of fingers to plug them the very fact that some people are relieved that there BPD's ire is directed at someone else an not themselves an so are relieved to be out of the rabbit hairs ( gunsight term ) underlines this agree with what you are comfortable , say you don't agree with some of the more radical stuff but are willing to listen draw a line in the sand with the outright outrageous would be my best guess

[formflier]

  BPD needs boundaries they are hard to implement

SlyQQ,

Correct!  Boundaries are very important.  The most effective ones are usually actually pretty simple... .but sometimes we've been stuck in FOG for so long that it is hard to see the simplicity. 

Such as:  Verbal abuse... .I walk out of room.  Or... .If I am threated... .as in "do this or else... ."... I stop speaking and walk away from the room.  The topic is over.

They will figure it out.

SlyQQ... .can you tell us some experiences with boundaries or dealing with someone that likes to "paint everyone black"? 

[Mutt]

BPD needs boundaries they are hard to implement

but once they start chipping little holes in the dyke you are soon going to run out of fingers to plug them

I sort of agree here SlyQQ.

When we're not used to asserting boundaries it's a learning curve. It can be tiresome defending the same boundaries with a pwBPD.

It is arrested emotional development. Like a young child flailing against the parent's boundary.

You can't use "running out of fingers" as an excuse. It's up to you to defend your boundaries not someone else. The more you defend them the person will get the picture and challenge them less.

It becomes easier and second nature. It takes work. It takes effort. There's no other way. It is what it is.

[waverider]

The first challenge is making them realize that you actually do have boundaries and you will stick to them. ie getting the system in place in the first place regardless of what the particular issue.

[SlyQQ]

For various reasons my Bpd Daughter asked her boyfriend to hit her Sometimes BPDs do things like this to ground themselves or ask you to " Hurt them " she had asked me the same thing but being older an wiser I just gave her a pat on the cheek hoping the supprise would be enough of a shock to accomplish what was neccasary. Unfortunately the BF (who was at the end of his tether and had had little or no sleep for four to five days and had three days earlier briefly onight unable to handle it bailed out on us ( she was going through a manic episode )) When asked the same thing Did actuallyhit her something i dont condone but completely understand. The end result was ( probably partly due to the earlier bail out and massive alarm bells ringing in her head ) was the next day she started complaining to her sister that her BF " hit her " ( without any of the accompanying circumctances ) the normal initial steps of a BPD paving the way for an exit if neccasary I had been aware of what was going on and had alredy told her sister about the incident who told her sister " YOU TOLD HIM TO HIT YOU " and offered no sympathy this largely put an end to a situation that could have spiralled dangerously downwards especially given the parameters we were facing 

[believer55]

Great thread! At first I thought my uBPDh was just being oversensitive to his friends and not being able to see that other people have other things going on in their lives and don't hang off his every whim. He would be so negative about everyone and expect me to agree to all his opinions - calling his mates names and saying how no one can be trusted or is worth his friendship. If I disgreed with him or offered another perspective he would accuse me of lusting after his friends! I have learned I do not need to agree with him and remind myself I am entitiled to form my own opinions. I was worried about the person I was becoming just to keep him happy.

Stay true to yourself, don't agree with him just to keep the peace but be aware that his feelings are so real and so intense to him that he needs to express them. The black and white point of view offers us no middle ground to walk on... .so whenever possible stay neautral. I find this hard too. Best of luck.

[waverider]

Great thread! At first I thought my uBPDh was just being oversensitive to his friends and not being able to see that other people have other things going on in their lives and don't hang off his every whim. He would be so negative about everyone and expect me to agree to all his opinions - calling his mates names and saying how no one can be trusted or is worth his friendship. If I disgreed with him or offered another perspective he would accuse me of lusting after his friends! I have learned I do not need to agree with him and remind myself I am entitiled to form my own opinions. I was worried about the person I was becoming just to keep him happy.

Stay true to yourself, don't agree with him just to keep the peace but be aware that his feelings are so real and so intense to him that he needs to express them. The black and white point of view offers us no middle ground to walk on... .so whenever possible stay neautral. I find this hard too. Best of luck.

Good approach you are entitled to your view, but there is no need to try to sell him your view. Just diplomatically listen to his view without actually agreeing to it. ie Dont validate the invalid. Only validate that he is entitled to a view, not that it is an accurate assesment of facts as you see them.

[SlyQQ]

And above all else this To thy own self be true

 when dealing with BPD i can not possible agree more