He Doesn't Like Counseling

[Depression = 72% of members]

I have been rather quiet with him for the last week or so. I am overwhelmed and don't really feel much like talking. My grandma is in the hospital and there has been drama in my FOO. I was trying to talk about stuff with my grandma and do a little bit of reminiscing and he took over the conversation and started talking about his grandma. I cut him off and pointed out what he had done. Anyway, the next day, I got a call that she was doing really bad and that I needed to come see her right away. I did. On my way home, it hit me that I didn't really have anybody to talk to about all of this stuff. Plus, I saw my sister and spoke a few words to her. We have been no contact for over a year.

So, when I get home, he asks what is up and how I am feeling, blah, blah, blah. The typical act concerned so he can find a way to make it about him. I shut down and told him that I didn't feel comfortable talking to him or sharing my feelings with him. Last night at work, I didn't respond to any of his emails. I braced myself when I got home because I figured that I would catch hell. I didn't. He just asked if I got the emails. I told him I did and that was that. One of my daughters did mention that I didn't talk to dad while at work. That leads me to believe that he said something to the kids about it.

Today, he confronts me about being so quiet this week. I again told him that I didn't feel like I could talk to him. I pointed out all of the times that he assured me he was telling the truth only to later find out that he was lying. I pointed out all of the times that he told me my feelings were not justified or were out of line when they were very real and very based on the facts of the situation. I told him that I didn't really know what to say or think or feel right now because I don't feel like he is taking anything very seriously.

He had no idea what I was talking about. He seems to think that he is taking everything very seriously. He is helping more around the house and he isn't on the computer as much. I pointed out that he has not made an appointment to go to the counselor in a while. He said it was because of money. No, we didn't really have the money in November but he has not made any effort to find the money or make counseling a priority. He backpedals a bit and then comes right out and says, "Forgive me but I don't like counseling. I can't help it. If you want me to make an appointment, let me know." At that point, I told him, "I don't know what to say. I have to go." I hung up and then he texts me that he made an appointment for next week and then he calls to tell me that he made the appointment.

I know that I am sending mixed signals. I know that I am so slowly thinking about and planning an exit strategy. Even though I don't plan on staying long term, I am wondering if it is okay for me to insist on him going to counseling. She I even care at this point? He says he is done with step 4 and is supposed to go through step 5 with his sponsor tonight but I am kind of ambivalent about it. He will only attend one SAA meeting a week because Saturday meetings are too long. Why the hell do I care whether or not he does his 12 steps? Why the hell do I care whether or not he goes to counseling? Why the hell do I care whether or not he is talking to other women? How can I simultaneously want to leave so badly but still care so much about what he is or isn't doing with regard to his recovery?

I feel like a walking contradiction!

[vortex of confusion]

I have been rather quiet with him for the last week or so. I am overwhelmed and don't really feel much like talking. My grandma is in the hospital and there has been drama in my FOO. I was trying to talk about stuff with my grandma and do a little bit of reminiscing and he took over the conversation and started talking about his grandma. I cut him off and pointed out what he had done. Anyway, the next day, I got a call that she was doing really bad and that I needed to come see her right away. I did. On my way home, it hit me that I didn't really have anybody to talk to about all of this stuff. Plus, I saw my sister and spoke a few words to her. We have been no contact for over a year.

So, when I get home, he asks what is up and how I am feeling, blah, blah, blah. The typical act concerned so he can find a way to make it about him. I shut down and told him that I didn't feel comfortable talking to him or sharing my feelings with him. Last night at work, I didn't respond to any of his emails. I braced myself when I got home because I figured that I would catch hell. I didn't. He just asked if I got the emails. I told him I did and that was that. One of my daughters did mention that I didn't talk to dad while at work. That leads me to believe that he said something to the kids about it.

Today, he confronts me about being so quiet this week. I again told him that I didn't feel like I could talk to him. I pointed out all of the times that he assured me he was telling the truth only to later find out that he was lying. I pointed out all of the times that he told me my feelings were not justified or were out of line when they were very real and very based on the facts of the situation. I told him that I didn't really know what to say or think or feel right now because I don't feel like he is taking anything very seriously.

He had no idea what I was talking about. He seems to think that he is taking everything very seriously. He is helping more around the house and he isn't on the computer as much. I pointed out that he has not made an appointment to go to the counselor in a while. He said it was because of money. No, we didn't really have the money in November but he has not made any effort to find the money or make counseling a priority. He backpedals a bit and then comes right out and says, "Forgive me but I don't like counseling. I can't help it. If you want me to make an appointment, let me know." At that point, I told him, "I don't know what to say. I have to go." I hung up and then he texts me that he made an appointment for next week and then he calls to tell me that he made the appointment.

I know that I am sending mixed signals. I know that I am so slowly thinking about and planning an exit strategy. Even though I don't plan on staying long term, I am wondering if it is okay for me to insist on him going to counseling. She I even care at this point? He says he is done with step 4 and is supposed to go through step 5 with his sponsor tonight but I am kind of ambivalent about it. He will only attend one SAA meeting a week because Saturday meetings are too long. Why the hell do I care whether or not he does his 12 steps? Why the hell do I care whether or not he goes to counseling? Why the hell do I care whether or not he is talking to other women? How can I simultaneously want to leave so badly but still care so much about what he is or isn't doing with regard to his recovery?

I feel like a walking contradiction!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

The only "issue" I saw is that when he directly asked if you wanted him to go... .or would go if you wanted... .you should send him a clear... .unambiguous signal... I want you to go and keep going.

Don't worry about decisions you may or may not make in the future.

You are there so... .you have not decided to leave... .you may change your mind in the future and leave... .or you may continue to decide to stay.  That is up to you.

My recommendation:  Take a deep breath.  Clearly tell him you want him to go to counseling and that is a priority for you.  Thank him for making the appointment.  If he happens to say this action "fixes" it... .I would clarify this is step in right direction... .not a fix.  If he doesn't bring it up... .just leave it at thank you.

[vortex of confusion]

The only "issue" I saw is that when he directly asked if you wanted him to go... .or would go if you wanted... .you should send him a clear... .unambiguous signal... I want you to go and keep going.

I know this is probably a silly question but I don't feel like I have much right to tell him that I want him to go to counseling. If he is only going because I asked him to go, then what is the point? At his last appointment, he counselor gave him a list of emotions/feelings and asked him to journal about it. I asked him about that at one point and he blew me off. I don't think he has really done anything with the exercise that she asked him to do.

My recommendation:  Take a deep breath.  Clearly tell him you want him to go to counseling and that is a priority for you.  Thank him for making the appointment.  If he happens to say this action "fixes" it... .I would clarify this is step in right direction... .not a fix.  If he doesn't bring it up... .just leave it at thank you.

He has been trying and I have been trying to thank him and not engage him as much but it is hard. I have tried to make it clear that I appreciate what he is doing but I am struggling and that it is going to take a lot more than a couple weeks of him helping around the house for me to trust him again. I feel like I have absolute zero trust in him. [/quote]

[Cat Familiar]

Vortex,

I am so sorry about your grandma and that you feel you have no one to talk to about your feelings. Don't be hard on yourself right now and you don't need to worry about having contradictory feelings--it will all sort out in the future. Just be kind to yourself and embrace the uncertainty--I know, easier said than done.

[formflier]

 

I don't see any contradiction in having zero trust... .and thanking him.

Also don't see the r/s between wanting him to go to counseling and if he wants to go... or if he does his stuff.

They are all separate issues... .don't mix them.

So... .don't "try" to thank him.  Just do it.  Say it clearly... .say it once... .and move along.

Don't tell him you want him to go to counseling "if" he does xy and z.  Just tell him you want him to go... .and leave it at that.

His attendance and homework are different issues.

[formflier]

 

And... .I was remiss in not expressing sorrow about your grandma... .

Hang tough... .you have a lot on your plate.

 

[MissyM]

My recommendation:  Take a deep breath.  Clearly tell him you want him to go to counseling and that is a priority for you.  Thank him for making the appointment.  If he happens to say this action "fixes" it... .I would clarify this is step in right direction... .not a fix.  If he doesn't bring it up... .just leave it at thank you.

I absolutely agree with this statement because the truth is it does matter to you because you have children with this man.  I have heard horrific stories of children being exposed to their father's acting out, either by seeing porn or by finding texts and emails with other women.  It is a very scaring experience for a child.  If for no other reason, co-parenting is enough.  This was the reason my dBPDh finally wanted to get serious about getting well, he does love the kids and doesn't want to saddle them with his issues (when he is thinking clearly).

And I am sorry about your Grandma, take gentle care of yourself.

[vortex of confusion]

I don't see any contradiction in having zero trust... .and thanking him.

I think I am mixing a lot of issues. Quite frankly, I am tired of feeling like I have to thank him for every. little. bitty. thing that he does. The thanking him is a separate issue. I can thank him and let it go and then he will bring it up again and again and I will thank him again or say something like, "I have already thanked you for this. I really appreciate what you did/are doing."

Also don't see the r/s between wanting him to go to counseling and if he wants to go... or if he does his stuff.

Would you mind expanding on this a little? I know I am thinking myself in circles here. Yes, I want him to go to counseling but I don't really see the point in it if he is not going to take it seriously. I want him to go AND take it seriously.

So... .don't "try" to thank him.  Just do it.  Say it clearly... .say it once... .and move along.

That sounds so unbelievably simple yet I find myself having difficulties. Yes, I tell him thank you for a lot of stuff but I resent the heck out it at times. Why the heck should I thank him for doing stuff that I have been doing for years without a single ounce of recognition.

Don't tell him you want him to go to counseling "if" he does xy and z.  Just tell him you want him to go... .and leave it at that.

I think I have been pretty clear about wanting him to go to counseling. I don't typically add the "IF" part. I want him to go no matter what happens. He has issues that he can't/won't deal with and I cannot handle dealing with him.

His attendance and homework are different issues.

True. How do I handle the attendance and homework issues? He started his 12 step program in Oct. of 2013. At that time, he said to give him a year. The year has come and gone and he has fallen off the wagon and has had to start over repeatedly. He still hasn't made it beyond step 5 and he doesn't like going to Saturday meetings. I feel like he is stringing me along.

[formflier]

 

Vortex,

I'll try to give a quick reply... .and then come back later for some specifics.

Welcome to FF leadership school.

Being a leader is sometimes a lonely place... .you are expected to do the right thing... .sometimes you do that and get no recognition... .sometimes you have to do hard things... .that you don't want to do.  Not everyone is cut out to be a leader... .a few are natural leaders.  Most people need to be trained.

Rule #1.

Don't ever... .ever... .ask your followers to do something that you wouldn't do... .or don't normally do. 

So... how does that apply to you?

You are the leader in your house.  Like it or not... you are.  Go look in the mirror... .and tell yourself that.  It's not fair... it's not right... .  BUT... .I GUARNATEE YOU THAT IT IS  This is your world.

Hit the pause button and let this sink in.

Hit the pause button again and let's get on with life.

The chances of your husband behaving in a way towards you... .that you are not going to demonstrate towards him... .is below 0%.  Demonstrate your knowledge and leadership in the right way to conduct a r/s... .and do it.

The same leadership applies when he is not being right... .do not participate in unhealthy behavior.

Note:  A leader doesn't get to stop doing that because they don't "feel" like it. 

Quick story:  In the airplane... .emergency procedures are written to deal with one emergency at a time.  So... it was always interesting to take a student up and simulate a engine fire with a hydraulic failure... .or some other complex thing... .where "the book" has no answer. 

They usually say they don't know what they will do.

Then... when I tell them "they have the rest of their lives to figure that out... ."    The impact starts to sink in.


Is your situation that dire... .NO.  But... .you have the rest of your marriage to figure this out.  It's up to you to figure out what kind of marriage that will be.

You can do this... .

Lead by example... .

 

[MissyM]

True. How do I handle the attendance and homework issues? He started his 12 step program in Oct. of 2013. At that time, he said to give him a year. The year has come and gone and he has fallen off the wagon and has had to start over repeatedly. He still hasn't made it beyond step 5 and he doesn't like going to Saturday meetings. I feel like he is stringing me along.

I believe this is pretty common the 1st year.  Quite honestly to make it to step 5 in the first year is doing quite well for a sex addict.  A lot depends on the sponsor and therapist.  The 1st sponsor my dBPDh had was not a good fit, he didn't expect the same level of commitment that my dBPDh's current sponsor does.  They tend to pick an easy sponsor in the beginning, occasionally I see someone with a full committed spouse in recovery but they don't seem to have the PD aspect of it.

Don't ever... .ever... .ask your followers to do something that you wouldn't do... .or don't normally do. 

So... how does that apply to you?

For me, that meant being the leader in recovery.  My recovery was on solid ground long before my dBPDh's was.  Meetings and therapy changed my life and showed him that there was a way to a more peaceful existence.  If you can't afford individual therapy for yourself, look into a CSAT that does groups for spouses.  It is much cheaper and the book we work from in my group has been incredibly beneficial.  Having a sponsor of my own and recovery friends, helped me to see that I needed to change my life and to really have people IRL that "get it" is such a relief.  We are going together as a couple in recovery, it doesn't work that way for everyone but it does for some.

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks FF!

I am not a good leader. I don't follow but I don't lead either. I always do my best when I am around people that work with me instead of against me. I know that everyone in the house looks to me for pretty much everything. I set the tone for everything. It is exhausting.

MissM:

His first sponsor was not available very often. He was supposed to do the 5th step with his sponsor tonight but his sponsor had something come up. It is always the same story that his sponsor isn't available, blah, blah, blah. He likes his current sponsor and says that he can relate with him pretty well. As for therapy, my husband doesn't like therapy. I suggested that he look for a CSAT but he says that he needs help with other stuff. When I say anything about the other stuff, he says that he doesn't need counseling for that because it all goes back to his addiction. I haven't brought any of that up in a while but it is all pretty circular. He doesn't want to do any of it and I am pretty convinced that he is doing the bare minimum just to shut me up. He knows that I can't go anywhere right now because of money so he is using that to his advantage.

In all honesty, I am currently resistant to the idea of jumping through a bunch of hoops to set an example for him. I am working on changing my life but I am going to do it in my own way. I am not the sex addict. I am not the one that has spent years and years lying. I am not the one that continues to lie and make false promises. I feel like he is punishing me because I won't just sit down and shut up and take whatever bread crumbs he wants to give me.

[MissyM]

In all honesty, I am currently resistant to the idea of jumping through a bunch of hoops to set an example for him. I am working on changing my life but I am going to do it in my own way. I am not the sex addict. I am not the one that has spent years and years lying. I am not the one that continues to lie and make false promises. I feel like he is punishing me because I won't just sit down and shut up and take whatever bread crumbs he wants to give me.

I went to therapy right away but wasn't going to go to 12 step meetings or group therapy, I was so pissed off.  When I started going I wanted to kick myself for not going sooner.  The relief I felt, after I found the right meeting because I went to 3 different ones before I found "my people", was just immeasurable.  They didn't judge me, they held my hand, the let me yell and cry, and then they helped me laugh.  I would not have made it through this without the wonderful people I found there.  The nods and me toos when I shared just stunned me, it was like they were in my house and watching me and my husband.  Anyway, I almost didn't end up staying with my dBPDh but it has worked out.  The people I have met in these meetings are friends for life.

[vortex of confusion]

I went to therapy right away but wasn't going to go to 12 step meetings or group therapy, I was so pissed off.  When I started going I wanted to kick myself for not going sooner.  The relief I felt, after I found the right meeting because I went to 3 different ones before I found "my people", was just immeasurable.  They didn't judge me, they held my hand, the let me yell and cry, and then they helped me laugh.  I would not have made it through this without the wonderful people I found there.  The nods and me toos when I shared just stunned me, it was like they were in my house and watching me and my husband.  Anyway, I almost didn't end up staying with my dBPDh but it has worked out.  The people I have met in these meetings are friends for life.

I went to a couple of COSA meetings last year. I didn't feel comfortable with that group for some reason. I may have to look for a group that meets at a different time and place and see if I can find a better fit. What I would like to be able to find is a therapist or group that focuses on the trauma model rather than focusing on the codependent side of things like some of the 12 step groups do. I've read lots of literature from a bunch of different perspectives and the trauma model seems to resonate more with me than other approaches.

I went so far down the rabbit hole that I seriously doubt that I will get any me toos.

[formflier]

I am not a good leader.

Probably very much like you were not as good as you are now at dealing with pwBPD.  It's not natural for most people.  It can be learned.   That has everything to do with you and nothing to do with your husband or your kids... or anyone else.  You are not doing it "for" them. 

There is a bit of do unto others as you would have them do unto you in the leadership thinking.

Note... .there is a big reason why the saying is NOT

Do unto others as they HAVE done unto you.

In all honesty, I am currently resistant to the idea of jumping through a bunch of hoops to set an example for him.

I would be to... .  And I wouldn't do it for him... .or for her... .or anyone else.  If that is the reasoning... .STOP!  This is about you... .and you only.

See reasoning above. 

Note:  No suggestion this is easy, fair, right, pleasant, agreeable, desirable or anything else along those lines.  But I guarantee you that it IS. 

You can do this.  You can be a better leader.  You can take the next step... .  All you have to do is take one more step in the right direction.  Then evaluate... .then take another step.

[formflier]

 

Encouragement!

Vortex,

Wanted to separate out this thought. 

I think that if you have a clearer "boundary" on yourself for thanking him... .it will go better.

Try this on for size.

I will acknowledge proper behavior (not intentions or reasons for behavior) with a warm, sincere, word of thanks.  Maybe add a gentle touch on the shoulder... .something along those lines.  Pour a ton of energy into getting this right... .and then move along.

The "boundary" comes up when he wants to be thanked again.  DO NOT do anything that resembles thanks.  DO NOT invalidate.  This part will be tricky.

The goal is instead of trying to get thanks for the event of last week or yesterday... .you want him to do another event where he behaves properly.

So... when a new event happens... .start the cycle over again... .one time thanks... sincere and warm... .and move along.

Don't explain this to him... .just do it.

What do you think you can say when he wants "repeat credit"?

[vortex of confusion]

There is a bit of do unto others as you would have them do unto you in the leadership thinking.

I know what it takes to be a leader. I just don't feel like I have it in me to be a leader. I am great at coming up with ideas and being creative and finding information. What I am not good at is dealing with people that are resistant or unwilling. I know that my tendency is to give in and it takes a lot for me to get to a point where I can lay down the law and enforce boundaries and take the lead.

I would be to... .  And I wouldn't do it for him... .or for her... .or anyone else.  If that is the reasoning... .STOP!  This is about you... .and you only.

I am going to have to work up to this. I have a really difficult time not feeling like a selfish butt when I do things for me and only me. I am making progress but it is very slow.

 

You can do this.  You can be a better leader.  You can take the next step... .  All you have to do is take one more step in the right direction.  Then evaluate... .then take another step.

Thank you for this! Sometimes, I read stuff on the staying board and I get so discouraged because I can't imagine accomplishing some of the things that you and others have accomplished. I am so angry and caught up in all of the confusion that I can't see or think straight. I think I am going in the right direction. I can see and feel little bitty changes within myself and even in him.

Last night, I told him that I didn't feel like he was doing enough. I had a very difficult time saying that. He said that he is trying as hard as he can and that he doesn't know what else he can do. I felt bad because I couldn't and wouldn't tell him what to do. I kept it focused on my feelings and my truth. I could see how much it hurt him to hear those things. I know that he is making an effort but I can't help but question it. I told him that I have absolutely no trust in him. He was going on about his recovery and how everybody tells him that he has to focus on his recovery to the exclusion of everything else. I didn't think about this then but consistently behaving in a trustworthy manner (not telling lies and half truths) is PART of his recovery. How can he be in recovery if he is still telling lies and half truths? I am not sure how to approach some of this with him because he has compartmentalized things so tightly. And, I know that I have a tendency to mix issues because I see everything as interconnected and interrelated. I am sure that overwhelms him at times but I don't really know how to separate things into smaller bits so that they can be focused on one at a time.

[formflier]

Vortex,

I really do think you can do this.  I tend to "get to know" people and understand their story.  I think I understand yours.  In a way... it is similar to mine (details different... .concept the same)... .where for a while... .because we didn't know any better... .we dug a big... .DEEP... .hole... .because we didn't know any better.  Even worse... for a while... .we were trying really hard... .but were "pulling" in the wrong direction. 

Now... .we are down in this deep hole... .looking up... .and... .it looks like a long way up.  And you know what... .it is a long way up... .  But... here is the truth... .the only way to get there... is to get climbing.  One hard step at a time. 

Seriously... you can do this.  I see the conflict in your mind... .you are dealing with the "truth" that it will be hard... .and the "emotion" where you are grumpy at him... .and in reality... you are grumpy at yourself... .for doing it wrong for so long.

Big breath here... .BIG ONE... .

Before you can ever forgive him... .you must forgive yourself.  Say that to yourself several times... .  You may not be ready to forgive yourself... .that is a process... .that is another couple posts and topics. 

I know... .that you are tired of hearing about what you need to do... .but... .you are going to keep hearing that... .because it is true.  It ties in to what I'm going to say again about leadership... .below the next quote.

[  What I am not good at is dealing with people that are resistant or unwilling.

OK... .ring the bell... .leadership class is back in session.  Vortex and others... .take your seats... ! 

Then... .don't deal with them... .lead them by example.  Leading is not forcing... .leading is not making... .leading is ... .leading.  Say your piece... .then move out and do it by example.

Fade to the movie moment.  How many times in the war movies... .does the leader that is leading the charge up the hill... .look back to see if anyone is following.  Good leaders don't look back... they look forward... .

So... does this guarantee that your hubby will follow.  NOPE!  That is not your concern.  (well... I know it kinda is... but... .trying to make a point here... .)  You make sure you are leading by example... do the right thing... .head up that hill and don't look back.  Don't wait...

That is the key... .waiting on a pwBPD traits to do the "right" or "healthy" thing in an r/s... .is a recipe for disaster.

So... imagine and dream about what your healthy r/s looks like.  Then start walking towards it.  Yep... .it is most likely a long way off... .but you can determine if you get there.  You don't get to determine if your hubby gets there... .

You do get to determine if he has a good example to follow.  That is what I hope you will choose

[Grey Kitty]

VOC, here's a thought for you.

You don't have to be a GREAT leader. That probably isn't your destiny.

You do have to accept that your husband is going to be a TERRIBLE leader, if you leave that job for him.

I know of people who became supervisors at work, not because they had any desire to do the job, but because the knew how bad it would be if they refused, and the next most likely candidate was promoted to be the boss for them and their coworkers, and they just couldn't let that happen.

Some of them were really good. Still, people who did it for that reason, tried their best, and learned more as they did it.

As FF said, all you have to do is care where you are going, and head that-a-way the best you can.

[MissyM]

I went to a couple of COSA meetings last year. I didn't feel comfortable with that group for some reason. I may have to look for a group that meets at a different time and place and see if I can find a better fit. What I would like to be able to find is a therapist or group that focuses on the trauma model rather than focusing on the codependent side of things like some of the 12 step groups do. I've read lots of literature from a bunch of different perspectives and the trauma model seems to resonate more with me than other approaches.

I went so far down the rabbit hole that I seriously doubt that I will get any me toos.

Probably not the right group,  COSA has come out with a different attitude form headquarters about trauma.  Also, all of the up to date CSATs are using trauma model.  My CSAT was heavily involved with the change in the Carnes camp on this.  Carnes has redefined that codependent behaviors develop in response to living with an addict, they don't have to be there or fully developed before the relationship (the seeds are usually there but not always full grown trees).  One of my COSA meetings has changed the intro to reflect the trauma that spouses have endured, my other meeting hasn't but most of the people there are well versed in trauma.  When an old timer tries to call something codependent that is really trauma response, the rest of us mention that it is trauma response.  As anything else, it takes some effort to find the right fit.

As for most not having gone down the rabbit hole, I have heard many, many sad and scary things at a meeting.  I have never judged one person and would be sadly disappointed if anyone felt judged.  Some super personal things are best to share with a sponsor, to help mitigate the shame that we carry.  The people I sponsor think I am going to be shocked or disappointed in them and I have never felt that way, which gives them a great sense of relief to share their darkest secrets to someone and receive love back.  I had a wonderful sponsor that did the same for me.

[vortex of confusion]

Wow, you all have given me lots to think about.

FF: I keep taking baby steps. Every time I post and share my story and work through my feelings, I feel like I am taking one more step ahead. Posting here and doings stuff with my kids and helping them is really helping me to focus more on me and less on him. But, I do look back way too much. I still have that tiny inkling of hope that I won't have to go it alone. I have been leading this family since my husband and I got married. Every time we have moved or made a major purchase, I was the one that did all of the research and orchestrated it all. I guess I am just really tired. I have gone so strong for so long. I kept myself going by telling myself that my husband would step up and help me at some point. I feel like all of that hope is gone. I don't see an end in sight. I don't see me being able to relax. I have to brace myself so that I can forge ahead without worrying about whether or not anybody is following me.

GK: I have been a reluctant leader our whole marriage. I am not going to stand around and let things fall to pieces around me. I can and will take charge when necessary. I just don't like doing it and I had a totally different vision for what I thought marriage would be. I am still mourning the fact that I will never ever have the marriage that I wanted. I didn't sign up for this so now I have to figure out what to do next. Before kids, a lot of this stuff wasn't a big deal. With kids, I find it imperative to figure this stuff out or leave because my kids futures depend on it. I have been talking a lot to my oldest daughter and she has had some very insightful yet disturbing things to say. They are disturbing because they are a wake up call to the fact that I have been so blind.

MissyM: The group that I went to was run by a lady that has been involved with the group for 15 or more years. There were a couple of ladies there that were older and had been doing this stuff for a really long time. I felt so uncomfortable at that meeting that I wanted to run away screaming. I think I went a total of two or three times. Now, I work on that night so I haven't been back. And, I think I need to get past my own shame over the things that I have done. I have done so many things that I feel are out of character for me. I don't even know who I am sometimes.

And yes, I suspect I will make lots more posts as I try to wrap my brain around how to best move forward!

Oh, and I do want to report that there has been some progress. I caught my husband at the right time and in the right mood and was able to bring up how difficult it is to communicate with him when he is so defensive. He talked to his sponsor about it and he reported back that his sponsor got kind of harsh with him and told him that he needs to stop being defensive and start listening to me. His sponsor told him that everything that I was saying and feeling was perfectly normal. His sponsor told him that he would never be able to regain my trust if I don't feel safe talking to him. Whether or not it will make any difference remains to be seen but at least his sponsor validated me and tried to give my husband some tools to help him listen to me without getting defensive, etc. I do wonder how much of his recovery is my business. Right now, I feel like I can't or shouldn't ask my husband anything. He keeps everything rather vague and doesn't share much of anything with me at all. Everything feels so superficial.

[Grey Kitty]

I have been leading this family since my husband and I got married. Every time we have moved or made a major purchase, I was the one that did all of the research and orchestrated it all. I guess I am just really tired. I have gone so strong for so long. I kept myself going by telling myself that my husband would step up and help me at some point.

Yes, you are tired. 

If you accept that he's NOT likely to step up any time soon (i.e. before you end your marriage!), it will help you, believe it or not.

When you tell yourself that your H is about to step up, you are setting yourself up like you just have to carry this whole thing a little longer, so you can push yourself to exhaustion and then hand the load over to him. Of course he doesn't pick it up, and most likely he grabs something and throws it back the wrong way a little bit.

Now you are exhausted, disappointed, frustrated, and angry all at the same time.

If you don't expect him to step up, you can choose how to pace yourself in a way that works for you, and takes care of your family. It is still tiring, but at least you don't have the other emotions from blown expectations!

I do wonder how much of his recovery is my business. Right now, I feel like I can't or shouldn't ask my husband anything. He keeps everything rather vague and doesn't share much of anything with me at all. Everything feels so superficial.

That's a tough one to find the right balance on. If you are going to get it 'wrong', get it 'wrong' on the side of letting it be his business and staying clear of it.

I'd say that as you are married to him, you definitely have an INTEREST in how his recovery goes. You definitely care. What matters to you is his behavior toward you and your kids--not what he discusses with his sponsor, or which step he's on.

And more importantly, your involvement in his recovery is more likely to give him something to fight against than to help him move forward. Remember, the "classic" fight between you is that he's being an irresponsible ass and you are trying to control him to stop it.

[MissyM]

His sponsor told him that he would never be able to regain my trust if I don't feel safe talking to him. Whether or not it will make any difference remains to be seen but at least his sponsor validated me and tried to give my husband some tools to help him listen to me without getting defensive, etc. I do wonder how much of his recovery is my business. Right now, I feel like I can't or shouldn't ask my husband anything. He keeps everything rather vague and doesn't share much of anything with me at all.

Good for his sponsor!  There is something called a FASST check in by Milton Magness, that a lot of SAs use.  It is supposed to be a brief talk for about 10 minutes a week.  The SA speaks and the spouse listens and only validates at the end thank you for sharing.  I will look and see if I can message it to you.  It is very easy and a way for him to keep you informed of his progress.

The group that I went to was run by a lady that has been involved with the group for 15 or more years.

Some old timers are out of date, although I know a couple that also have children in recovery that are really with it!  One person shouldn't be leading the group, if it is a group not led by consensus then it is an unhealthy group.  I have heard good things about S-Annon but there isn't one near me.

And, I think I need to get past my own shame over the things that I have done. I have done so many things that I feel are out of character for me.

Yes, a key to our own healing.  Forgiving ourselves and getting over our own shame are highly beneficial.  You can get there.  

[formflier]

I am still mourning the fact that I will never ever have the marriage that I wanted. I didn't sign up for this so now I have to figure out what to do next.

You know this is a fact... .how? 

Not trying to be inflammatory... .but there is another thing I'll put on your pile of things to think about... .I know you have a lot.

General statement:  The way you carry yourself... .speak about yourself... .etc etc... .has a lot to do with how things actually turn out for yourself.

So... .if you constantly say this will NEVER happen... .what do you think the likelihood is that it will happen? 

Now... the other extreme of that... .is that some people think if they say and believe things... .that in and of itself will make them come true.  I don't believe that either.

dealing with pwBPD brings up lots of interesting "conundrums". 

Grey is correct... it will be much easier on you to accept that things are not going to be as you want them... .for a while... .That will help you manage your expectations.

Here is the conundrum... .if you don't expect your husband to get better... .what do you think the likelihood is that he will get better?

Soo... .how do you navigate between those two things?  Very carefully... .

[vortex of confusion]

I am still mourning the fact that I will never ever have the marriage that I wanted. I didn't sign up for this so now I have to figure out what to do next.

You know this is a fact... .how?

Oh man, that question really makes me angry. That isn't a bad thing though. I don't know this to be a fact beyond a reasonable doubt. But, given the facts of the situation, I do not see my husband ever being the partner that I want or need. That is a fact. He is incapable of being the husband that I want and need. He is needy and pathetic and selfish.

General statement:  The way you carry yourself... .speak about yourself... .etc etc... .has a lot to do with how things actually turn out for yourself.

I will figure this stuff out. It may take me lots of posts and time, but I will figure it out. Speaking about my marriage is different than speaking about myself. Me personally, I know that I can figure this out and get to where I need to be.

So... .if you constantly say this will NEVER happen... .what do you think the likelihood is that it will happen?

That is very true but being positive about my husband didn't exactly help either. It wasn't like I was sitting around wringing my hands doing nothing. No, I haven't gone to counseling but I have sought out all sorts of information about how to be a better wife. Dealing with the BPD stuff is not being a wife. It is being a mother and caretaker. The likelihood of my husband ever being anything different than who he is is slim to none. I get really frustrated on the staying board at times because it seems that you and others say that the only person you can change is yourself. So, I try to change myself and jump through more hoops and apply all of these communication techniques. All the while, he is off doing his thing. If I say there is hope, then that is counteracted with a reminder that these people don't change and that it is a lifetime commitment. If I say that I have given up on ever having the marriage that I wanted, then I am reprimanded for being negative and not giving things a chance.

No wonder I feel so confused. It is very circular and feels like I am talking to my husband all over again. The double speak is about to make my mind explode.

[MissyM]

I am still mourning the fact that I will never ever have the marriage that I wanted. I didn't sign up for this so now I have to figure out what to do next.

I actually really understand this issue.  In my group therapy for spouses of SA, we talk about morning the dream of the marriage or relationship.  It is not going to be the way we fantasized or pretended it was, at one point.  I strongly believe that we have to reach acceptance of the reality of our situation.  Once we reach acceptance, then we can decide what it is we truly want in a relationship.  If our spouse is recovering also, then we can decide if we have the same core needs and wants in our marriage.   If we do, then we start building towards those.  It takes both parties doing the work for this to happen.  All we can do is start the process on our end.

[vortex of confusion]

I am still mourning the fact that I will never ever have the marriage that I wanted. I didn't sign up for this so now I have to figure out what to do next.

I actually really understand this issue.  In my group therapy for spouses of SA, we talk about morning the dream of the marriage or relationship.  It is not going to be the way we fantasized or pretended it was, at one point.  I strongly believe that we have to reach acceptance of the reality of our situation.  Once we reach acceptance, then we can decide what it is we truly want in a relationship.  If our spouse is recovering also, then we can decide if we have the same core needs and wants in our marriage.   If we do, then we start building towards those.  It takes both parties doing the work for this to happen.  All we can do is start the process on our end.

Thank you MissyM! I knew I had read about mourning the loss of the relationship somewhere. No matter what happens, the relationship will never be what I had wanted it to be or what I pretended it was. No matter what happens moving forward, my husband and I have a history together and there will always be wounds and baggage that we have to work with on a daily basis. I can rethink what it is that I want or will accept out of a relationship but that is never going to be what I wanted out of a relationship up to this point. I will be perfectly honest and admit that I struggle with accepting the reality of my situation. I have always known things under the surface but was able to deny or pretend that it wasn't there. I recently told my husband that we can't even begin to decide if we are still compatible because there are too many other issues clouding both of our judgments. Some days, I feel like I can't stand to be with him for one more minute and other days I want to do whatever it takes to keep my family together. I didn't get myself where I am over night so I am not going to figure out how to get out of it over night!

[Grey Kitty]

When I read that, I had a similar thought.

VOC, of course your H isn't the man you wanted or the one you pretended he was, and your marriage isn't like that either.

There's no getting around mourning that loss. If you are mourning a fantasy that never existed, that is probably harder work, not easier work. 

As you are finding, the first step is trying to accept it as it is today, and accept your H as he is today.

Only after you really accept where you are can you make good choices about where to go. That's why you see so many people running themselves ragged but not getting anywhere.

[vortex of confusion]

VOC, of course your H isn't the man you wanted or the one you pretended he was, and your marriage isn't like that either.

I still wonder what I was thinking. In hindsight, I can see various red flags. I thought he was like me and sincerely wanted the same things that I did. We did all of the premarital counseling. We had a lot of tools to use to help us through the rough times. I did not go into marriage thinking that it would be easy. I knew it would take lots of work but I thought it would be worth it.

There's no getting around mourning that loss. If you are mourning a fantasy that never existed, that is probably harder work, not easier work. 

Thanks for the hug! I don't know if I am mourning a fantasy that never existed or what. I don't think I ever had any unrealistic expectations or hopes or dreams. I did not go into marriage thinking that it would be some kind of romantic adventure. The thing that I think I am mourning the most is the fact that I don't feel like my husband will ever be able to reciprocate in the way that I want or need.

I just found out that my aunt died. One of my kids offered me a hug immediately. He seemed kind of detached and unconcerned. I am in a bit of shock because she is younger than my mother and it was completely unexpected. I wasn't close to her but I do have fond memories. It would have been nice if he had tried to reach out to me a little. When one of the kids asked me what was wrong, he told her that my aunt died and he did it in a tone that didn't seem very nice.

Only after you really accept where you are can you make good choices about where to go. That's why you see so many people running themselves ragged but not getting anywhere.

I do feel that I am making some progress. It may be super slow, but it is there nonetheless.

[formflier]

   

Sorry for the loss of your aunt.  Focus on the fond memories that you have... .share them with your kids... .especially the one that gave you the hug.

I do feel that I am making some progress. It may be super slow, but it is there nonetheless.

Correct!  We are 100% in agreement.  I'm proud of you for all the progress you have made... .keep it up.

[Grey Kitty]

There's no getting around mourning that loss. If you are mourning a fantasy that never existed, that is probably harder work, not easier work. 

Thanks for the hug! I don't know if I am mourning a fantasy that never existed or what. I don't think I ever had any unrealistic expectations or hopes or dreams. I did not go into marriage thinking that it would be some kind of romantic adventure. The thing that I think I am mourning the most is the fact that I don't feel like my husband will ever be able to reciprocate in the way that I want or need.

You sure had hopes and dreams that your H would be capable of things that (as of today) he's obviously not capable of. I don't think you were really hoping for a fantasy that walked off the screen of a Disney princess movie 

Your young children are more emotionally available and more empathetic to you than your husband is. How heartbreaking. 

I do feel that I am making some progress. It may be super slow, but it is there nonetheless.

Oh believe me... .I know that feeling all too well. Even baby steps are exhausting at first!