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Author Topic: Urgent advice needed - we are/were meeting to talk  (Read 561 times)
mitti
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« on: December 04, 2014, 06:57:42 PM »

Hi,

Brief background

I am usually on the undecided board but as my uBPDxbf and I are currently trying to remain friends and work on a dance project together I have switched. He is in T and is very committed to getting better and totally accepts that he has severe attachment issues. We have a totally different dynamic these days. He has not dysregulated once since he ended his silent treatment of 1,5 years this summer. There's still some push pull.

He approached me to dance together. I said we needed to talk this over first. Basically he needs to promise to be dependable and not cancel at the last minute or not be willing or able to compromise. This has been a little back and forth bc he is wanting to avoid the talk and go straight to dancing and I have said we need to talk first. We decided to meet Tuesday. Arranging this I understand has been a whole new experience for him around me bc for the first time I have said no to him and not worried about it Smiling (click to insert in post) The balance of power has shifted and I realize this must feel threatening to him.

The dilemma

Then something urgent came up and I called him today to ask to meet before Tuesday about it. I couldn't tell him over the phone partly bc I was in shopping mall when I called him. We decided to meet before work tomorrow. He calls me later but I am on the phone and let it go to voice mail, which in itself is a new experience for him with me, I usually pick up or call back asap. I have relaxed these former 'rules' a lot lately. He left a message wanting to know what I want to talk about but said he would call me in the morning before meeting me. So I didn't bother calling back. I actually really didn't want to anyway, as he would probably only try and somehow change the plans for tomorrow. Later I got a text from him saying he no longer felt like meeting me tomorrow.

I know he really really wants for us to dance together but wanting that so much also makes him feel vulnerable and without control and triggers his fears of abandonment, at the same time that is my bargaining tool. I do want to dance with him but I need to get some things decided between us to minimize the risks for certain behaviors, such as what he did today. The reason is it triggers anxiety in me, which I don't want.

What to do?

I didn't respond on purpose today. He wanted for me to call him back and when I didn't he tried a different method, rejecting me altogether. I don't want to reward a behavior in him that I don't like so I didn't respond to his text. I am thinking of either texting or calling him tomorrow morning to simply ask him what happened. I am hoping he will have calmed down by then. But if he hasn't I don't know... .I just really want to get my point across this one time that I am not willing to dance with him under just any circumstances. If I have something urgent to talk to him about he needs to make himself available.

I could do nothing in which case I expect he will contact me about the dancing - not talking - in a few days and what is urgent to me is not dealt with, either way he feels he gets his power back. Or I deal with what came up as I see fit and then deal with his reaction over it.

Any (other) suggestions?
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2014, 09:07:25 PM »

I've got two thoughts about what you are doing here:

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Good work not jumping the instant he does things, and dropping other things that are important for you, like letting his call go to voicemail when you are on the phone, and not calling back when you don't want to talk.

That sort of change is difficult work. As you do it more, you will find it easier, and do better at balancing it and hitting the right tone/level/whatever.

Second thought: I'm not sure about the "We need to talk before we dance" idea.

It sounds a little controlling/manipulative.

Do you want to dance with him? If you like dancing with him, you should just do it.

If you don't really want to dance, then agreeing to do it only if you talk first is a kinda weird bargain that likely won't work out well for you.

I'd also note that if you "force" him to show up and talk to you, he may not be as receptive as you like.

Basically he needs to promise to be dependable and not cancel at the last minute or not be willing or able to compromise.

I don't think that asking a pwBPD to "promise" not to do stuff like this is going to bring about any good results.

Your concerns that make you want to do this are very real--don't discount this, just try to deal with it in a more effective way. Think about the risks you are taking, and how you can protect yourself from them.
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shatra
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2014, 09:56:21 PM »

Sounds like he felt rejected when you didn't respond to his call, so he wanted to "beat you to it" and reject you.

   Do you know what you want to say when you meet with him?

  You said there was a 1.5 year silent treatment. Can you share about what prompted this, and also, how is "silent treatment" different than a break or a No Contact?

Shatra
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2014, 02:37:19 AM »

Mitti,

Sorry, but to me it sounds like you're playing games with him.
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mitti
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2014, 04:02:54 AM »

Hi Grey Kitty and thanks for responding,  

Yes, it hasn't been easy to make that switch to not always drop everything when he needs me, Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) but it seems to feel hard for him to adjust to this new way for me of being around him.

Second thought: I'm not sure about the "We need to talk before we dance" idea.

It sounds a little controlling/manipulative.

Do you want to dance with him? If you like dancing with him, you should just do it.

If you don't really want to dance, then agreeing to do it only if you talk first is a kinda weird bargain that likely won't work out well for you.

I do really want to dance with him. Without going into things, we both still also have feelings for each other but we do also have some issues that need resolving that concern other people. I will not get involved in this with him if he won't attempt to work on becoming more dependable. We were in a Student Dance Team where we had other partners. Things started happening between us and he panicked and left the group. One month later and he wants back on as my partner. I have talked to the dance teacher who has said he I can teach him the choreography on the side and the he can rejoin the group when there's time for another audition. This my ex knows. But he cannot make things complicated once back in the group with his push pull around me. These things need discussing before we can dance and I have explained a little already but I am not willing to talk about this on the phone, bc simply these things on the phone with him usually don't go that well.

But then I also had this urgent issue that came up. I don't really want to get into it here. It concerns both him and me on a personal level but does spill over into the dance thing also. I have to make a decision about it, which he doesn't know, but it would be a lot better for both of us if we could discuss this before I make my decision.

Excerpt
I'd also note that if you "force" him to show up and talk to you, he may not be as receptive as you like.

Basically he needs to promise to be dependable and not cancel at the last minute or not be willing or able to compromise.

I don't think that asking a pwBPD to "promise" not to do stuff like this is going to bring about any good results.

Your concerns that make you want to do this are very real--don't discount this, just try to deal with it in a more effective way. Think about the risks you are taking, and how you can protect yourself from them.

I know of course I can't force him to meet me and that is what he made clear to me yesterday. I can decide to not dance with him and that would pretty much ruin his chances with the group also bc the dance teacher already knows about some of this, and though they like him, they do not want the stress this sort of behavior would cause me, them or him.

When we were in CT together and when I felt worried he wouldn't show up the next time our T would have us all agree that we would turn up the following week. This sort of thing usually worked well. The other thing that I thought could work with him is that he would understand the implications such as his continued participation in the group. I am one of the co-teachers so my standing in it is safe, his isn't. Not sure how to phrase a response to him... .

So what would be a more effective way?

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mitti
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2014, 04:29:57 AM »

Sounds like he felt rejected when you didn't respond to his call, so he wanted to "beat you to it" and reject you.

   :)o you know what you want to say when you meet with him?

Hi Shatra,

I think you are right, it is a form of payback bc he couldn't deal with the worry not knowing the details around what I wanted to talk about and then having to wait with that worry.

I do know what to say when we meet but I really do not want the convo over the phone.

Excerpt
  You said there was a 1.5 year silent treatment. Can you share about what prompted this, and also, how is "silent treatment" different than a break or a No Contact?

We were going through a difficult time as a couple. He was distant and had quit CT and so when he had a tantrum I decided to not take responsibility for our r/s as I always had down before, to see if he would do differently if I did differently. When he didn't I became pretty decided we were through. When I contacted him after 4 months he was angry and I wrote an angry response back. That prompted a total block of me out of his life. Every now again over the following year I tried to contact him in different ways. He never responded to anything. He avoided all the places I go, started a smear campaign against me etc. Then this summer he started coming to the dances, in the beginning still silent treating me. That is one of the reasons why it is important that he agree to how we can do this dance together. The dance teacher in this group has already seen my ex's behavior and more of it isn't going to be in his favor.

So I guess first there was no contact, which turned into a break, that turned into silent treatment.

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mitti
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2014, 04:31:32 AM »

Mitti,

Sorry, but to me it sounds like you're playing games with him.

Hi bruised,

I suppose it may seem like that on the surface. My responses to Shatra and Grey Kitty explain the situation better.
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mitti
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2014, 05:28:57 AM »

So I tried to call him and no response and then I simply text a question "What happened?" to not blame and give him an out.

He and I have talked a lot lately. He is aware of his back and forth and how he usually pulls away when triggered and only a couple of days ago he told me he wasn't going to do that next time, go figure, this is the next time. I am considering just explaining some of this that he wanted to know in an email but more importantly somehow let him know that he may ruin his chances with this dance group with this behavior, without spelling out in which case he will dysregulate and throw in the reverse and ruin his chances for sure.
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2014, 08:12:10 AM »

I do really want to dance with him. Without going into things, we both still also have feelings for each other but we do also have some issues that need resolving that concern other people. I will not get involved in this with him if he won't attempt to work on becoming more dependable. We were in a Student Dance Team where we had other partners. Things started happening between us and he panicked and left the group. One month later and he wants back on as my partner. I have talked to the dance teacher who has said he I can teach him the choreography on the side and the he can rejoin the group when there's time for another audition. This my ex knows. But he cannot make things complicated once back in the group with his push pull around me. These things need discussing before we can dance and I have explained a little already but I am not willing to talk about this on the phone, bc simply these things on the phone with him usually don't go that well.

This dance thing being with a whole team does change the landscape.

Getting together to dance, teaching him choreography, etc. still sounds like a good thing for you to do--As you said, you want to dance with him.

His choice to panic and leave the group obviously had consequences. Your ex gets to live with those consequences now. If you try to minimize them for him, or reduce them, that's getting close to the edge between enabling his bad behavior, instead of just being supportive. It can be a tough balance to find. I'd suggest that you let the dance teacher make the call, without much more effort to influence the teacher from here going forward.

And yes, his push-pull behavior did mess up his role in the dance group. If he does it again, it will mess it up further, probably beyond repair.

Don't try to extract any promises from him. He will break them if he dysregulates or freaks out anyway.

Instead, make the consequences of this sort of action clear to him.

I'd like to add that there are TWO different consequences from when he pulled out of the dance:

1. The dance teacher's consequences. (i.e. he cannot get back in w/o an audition later, etc.)

If your ex already understands very well how this part went, you may not need to explain it to him at all. If you do, read up on this communications technique--it will help you package this information in a way that he has a better chance of processing it well:

TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth

2. YOUR consequences. In your shoes, I'd be skeptical about relying on him as a dance partner in a larger group dance performance like this. It is for YOU to choose how much you are willing to risk along these lines.

When the "Truth" is something you personally are imposing, instead of simply how the world works, the S.E.T technique doesn't help very much.

Still, tell him what you feel about his actions, and what you are doing in response to those feelings. He's got a right to know, even if he won't like it.

Excerpt
But then I also had this urgent issue that came up. I don't really want to get into it here. It concerns both him and me on a personal level but does spill over into the dance thing also. I have to make a decision about it, which he doesn't know, but it would be a lot better for both of us if we could discuss this before I make my decision.

You make it sound like your decision, even though it impacts both of you.   I wish you peace and clarity.

Is there an external deadline for you to make this decision?
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mitti
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2014, 12:14:16 PM »

Thanks Grey Kitty,

Thanks so much for your help and support.

The dance teacher, who knows about our background, actually left it to me to decide, but once he is back in, that decision is no longer mine. I am trying to minimize the consequences for myself mostly I think and to to be able to make a decision about this while it is still up to me. This is the reason for why I wanted to have a talk before I let him know whether I am willing to partner with him. I feel sure he understands he will ruin his chances with the group if he ruins them with me now but I think he feels sure that I will cover and enable him like before and I won't and I suppose learning that experience is what is happening for him now, and I will see just how important both this dance and I, are to him, and also where I draw the line, when it comes to disrespecting me.

I would like to make some sort of arrangement with him. He is able to hold down a high responsibility position where he works, and he responded well to making promises in CT with me. Since then he has had 1,5 years of private T and has now started T with a specialist in attachment disorders. I think he can do it, and if he can't, well at least then he knows he failed himself and nobody else.

The other thing, is something that he refuses to deal with but the part of it that impacts me I will deal with and therefore it may also affect him. I just want to let him know how I propose to deal with so that it doesn't come as a total surprise to him. I know it sounds confusing but I don't feel fine explaining on a public forum what it is exactly Smiling (click to insert in post) There's no exact deadline but unless I deal with it promptly it may remain.

I will brush up on SET, thank you
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mitti
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2014, 12:38:22 PM »

Earlier he got back to me by text and there's been some texting back and forth. I tried to ring but he refused to pick up. This is the convo

ME: I have no idea what happened but would like to understand bc this is the sort of thing we ought to have an understanding about if we are going to be able to dance together

HIM: We can talk Mon or Tue

ME: I would really like to know what happened today. You have said you weren't going to cancel like this anymore. I was out when you called yesterday, you left a message to call today but then cancelled... .? And then you make yourself impossible to reach. How do you want me to understand that?

HIM: Simply that I am busy

ME: Yesterday you wrote you didn't "feel like it"

HIM: Both, don't feel like it and busy

ME: Not sure that I have any more patience with your push pull. Something has triggered you since yesterday but if you don't want to go there, I guess it is that you really do not see and appreciate the benefits for you.

No more response from him

As far as SET goes I didn't do well because I wasn't thinking about it then. Mostly I tried to be authentic to myself without triggering him. I have no idea how to use SET here because what is there to show sympathy and empathy for? He is being passive aggressive, how do you use SET then?
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2014, 01:41:08 PM »

Hi Mitti

  You clarified that earlier on it was a break when you didn't see him , and then "silent treatment" when he was around you (via the dances) but didn't speak (silent treatment)... .so he went from being angry or not responding when you contacted him, to being able to tolerate being around  you in silence, to now speaking... .has he said why he did that and had to be "awaY' for 1.5 years?

   When you texted each other earlier, it started out well... .then he may have felt attacked (they view any neg feedback as attacks) and withdrew (another push in the push pull dance). I wonder how you can phrase SET with him next time?

SHatra
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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2014, 01:46:07 PM »

Hi Mitti

  You clarified that earlier on it was a break when you didn't see him , and then "silent treatment" when he was around you (via the dances) but didn't speak (silent treatment)... .so he went from being angry or not responding when you contacted him, to being able to tolerate being around  you in silence, to now speaking... .has he said why he did that and had to be "awaY' for 1.5 years?

   When you texted each other earlier, it started out well... .then he may have felt attacked (they view any neg feedback as attacks) and withdrew (another push in the push pull dance). I wonder how you can phrase SET with him next time?

SHatra
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mitti
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« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2014, 03:21:49 PM »

  You clarified that earlier on it was a break when you didn't see him , and then "silent treatment" when he was around you (via the dances) but didn't speak (silent treatment)... .so he went from being angry or not responding when you contacted him, to being able to tolerate being around  you in silence, to now speaking... .has he said why he did that and had to be "awaY' for 1.5 years?

Yes, first it seemed he got very angry when I didn't assume responsibility over the break, then angrier still a few months later, then avoiding me totally for one year and then tolerating to being around me but silent treating me for about 3 months but slowly thawing. I have asked and he has told me that he was angry that I didn't leave him alone, which I did for the most part. I lived my own life, traveling, working abroad and only sporadically contacting him. But he also said that he was angry that I left him when all he wanted was to be loved. Recently he also told me that he had no idea how to approach me but this is just rationalization. I don't think he can remember why anymore.

   
Excerpt
When you texted each other earlier, it started out well... .then he may have felt attacked (they view any neg feedback as attacks) and withdrew (another push in the push pull dance). I wonder how you can phrase SET with him next time?

Yes, I am going to do that. I have not decided yet if I will just wait until next week or whether to address this over the weekend. It feels difficult because I don't know what to sympathize or empathize with.

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« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2014, 07:00:26 PM »

SET doesn't work well when the "truth" is something about your feelings or your actions or enforcing your boundaries.

I don't know that packaging it better eases those sorts of conversations.

I do try to be very clear that I'm speaking about MY feelings. Try to make "I" statements instead of "You" statements.
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« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2014, 07:59:14 PM »

Hi Mitti,

I'm sorry if my previous post sounded abrupt. Your subsequent explanation has clarified the issue for me. I'm seeing parallels with the relationship I had with my uBPD friend.

Briefly, we had an intensely emotional friendship that involved constant push-pull by her. In the end I simply couldn't take it any more, so I cut her off. I probably could have handled the "breakup" a lot better, but I had previously asked her not to treat me badly. This all happened before I knew anything about BPD.

Like you, there's been a slow thawing and we now talk, but only at social occasions. I keep the interactions brief and light-hearted. No more texting or phone calls. I'm extremely cautious about getting close to her again.

ME: Not sure that I have any more patience with your push pull. Something has triggered you since yesterday but if you don't want to go there, I guess it is that you really do not see and appreciate the benefits for you.

I think that is the perfect response to him. I wish I had been as succinct with my friend at the end.
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mitti
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« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2014, 10:08:45 PM »

SET doesn't work well when the "truth" is something about your feelings or your actions or enforcing your boundaries.

I don't know that packaging it better eases those sorts of conversations.

I do try to be very clear that I'm speaking about MY feelings. Try to make "I" statements instead of "You" statements.

I see, so SET may not be very useful here. I just feel tired of his BS, though I understand it is a defense mechanism to him but to anybody else it's BS. But it feels like a minefield bc it so easily can trigger immense feelings of shame. Then again I have to be authentic to myself.

It has been a very long time since we were here before and I wonder what has brought us back to this place. I mean we are not even in a r/s but perhaps everything around me is charged for him but why has it got worse... .?
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mitti
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« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2014, 10:18:46 PM »

Hi Mitti,

I'm sorry if my previous post sounded abrupt. Your subsequent explanation has clarified the issue for me. I'm seeing parallels with the relationship I had with my uBPD friend.

Briefly, we had an intensely emotional friendship that involved constant push-pull by her. In the end I simply couldn't take it any more, so I cut her off. I probably could have handled the "breakup" a lot better, but I had previously asked her not to treat me badly. This all happened before I knew anything about BPD.

Like you, there's been a slow thawing and we now talk, but only at social occasions. I keep the interactions brief and light-hearted. No more texting or phone calls. I'm extremely cautious about getting close to her again.

Hi bruised, 

No worries, it can seem unclear from these brief descriptions, it's understandable. Smiling (click to insert in post)

The push pull can feel unbearable. That is what broke us up the last time also. At the time I knew about BPD but it still felt intolerable to go through yet another time. The first and second time we broke up though I had no idea and I felt like I was in some strange twisted nightmare, it felt totally outlandish. So no wonder you cut your ex off. One person can only take so much.

Do you want to get close to your ex?

Excerpt
ME: Not sure that I have any more patience with your push pull. Something has triggered you since yesterday but if you don't want to go there, I guess it is that you really do not see and appreciate the benefits for you.

I think that is the perfect response to him. I wish I had been as succinct with my friend at the end.

Thank you, that made me feel better. This day has felt tough and I agonized over each of my texts to him.
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« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2014, 12:30:52 AM »

Do you want to get close to your ex?

Good question. When I'm not near her and I'm thinking clearly, the answer is a firm "no". But when I see her I always feel down the next morning, so there are still buried feelings there. I'm usually good by the afternoon (reading these boards helps). The truth is, I was totally infatuated with her.

We both have partners now, which complicates things even more. And because I "abandoned" her, I reckon she would be terrified of getting close to me again anyway. The push-pull would probably be worse the second time around. What do others think?

This day has felt tough and I agonized over each of my texts to him.

I know what you mean. I used to do the same. And as soon as I'd sent a text I would start thinking about how I had screwed up and realise what I should have said. It shouldn't be this hard!
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« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2014, 05:18:31 AM »

Then something urgent came up and I called him today to ask to meet before Tuesday about it. I couldn't tell him over the phone partly bc I was in shopping mall when I called him. We decided to meet before work tomorrow. He calls me later but I am on the phone and let it go to voice mail, which in itself is a new experience for him with me, I usually pick up or call back asap. I have relaxed these former 'rules' a lot lately. He left a message wanting to know what I want to talk about but said he would call me in the morning before meeting me. So I didn't bother calling back. I actually really didn't want to anyway, as he would probably only try and somehow change the plans for tomorrow. Later I got a text from him saying he no longer felt like meeting me tomorrow.

Mitti, switch this around.  If he were to call you about something URGENT, then wouldn't tell you over the phone what this urgent matter pertained to and made himself unavailable, how would you be thinking/feeling about this?  I'd feel confused and would be thinking that it couldn't be all that urgent, or that he found somebody else to help him through the crisis, or that it's already resolved.  He did try to get in touch with you.

Earlier he got back to me by text and there's been some texting back and forth. I tried to ring but he refused to pick up. This is the convo

ME: I have no idea what happened but would like to understand bc this is the sort of thing we ought to have an understanding about if we are going to be able to dance together

HIM: We can talk Mon or Tue

ME: I would really like to know what happened today. You have said you weren't going to cancel like this anymore. I was out when you called yesterday, you left a message to call today but then cancelled... .? And then you make yourself impossible to reach. How do you want me to understand that?

HIM: Simply that I am busy

ME: Yesterday you wrote you didn't "feel like it"

HIM: Both, don't feel like it and busy

ME: Not sure that I have any more patience with your push pull. Something has triggered you since yesterday but if you don't want to go there, I guess it is that you really do not see and appreciate the benefits for you.

No more response from him

Can you see how you've been triggered and your own push pull at play?  Urgency!  :)on't answer his questions or calls.

If something is urgent, then does it make sense to wait or call from a busy place where you can't talk anyway?

Was the original urgent matter ever brought to light/discussed?  



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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2014, 08:53:48 AM »

Mitti, switch this around.  If he were to call you about something URGENT, then wouldn't tell you over the phone what this urgent matter pertained to and made himself unavailable, how would you be thinking/feeling about this?  I'd feel confused and would be thinking that it couldn't be all that urgent, or that he found somebody else to help him through the crisis, or that it's already resolved.  He did try to get in touch with you.

Hi Phoebe,

I understand that it may seem that way when I feel I cannot reveal here what it is but the thing is that he actually does know what it is concerning just not the exact details of what had come up around this situation. This is something that cannot easily be discussed over the phone which he also knows and we have talked about that several times. He has agreed to meet before about this situation but then always changed or cancelled or wanted to discuss it over the phone or otherwise been difficult. He is not an easy person to talk to over the phone. So he knew this.

He had the option of leaving a message for me to call him back, but his message specifically said he would call me back the following day. I think for me to then call him back would have been both enabling and codependent in that I would have tried to soothe the worry I would have guessed he is feeling as well as lessen the worry I felt over what possible reaction would result from this, such as his text 1,5 hrs later canceling. He did have the option to ask for me to call him back or to call again but he didn't. I did not make myself unavailable. I believe I did the right thing.

Excerpt
Earlier he got back to me by text and there's been some texting back and forth. I tried to ring but he refused to pick up. This is the convo

ME: I have no idea what happened but would like to understand bc this is the sort of thing we ought to have an understanding about if we are going to be able to dance together

HIM: We can talk Mon or Tue

ME: I would really like to know what happened today. You have said you weren't going to cancel like this anymore. I was out when you called yesterday, you left a message to call today but then cancelled... .? And then you make yourself impossible to reach. How do you want me to understand that?

HIM: Simply that I am busy

ME: Yesterday you wrote you didn't "feel like it"

HIM: Both, don't feel like it and busy

ME: Not sure that I have any more patience with your push pull. Something has triggered you since yesterday but if you don't want to go there, I guess it is that you really do not see and appreciate the benefits for you.

No more response from him

Can you see how you've been triggered and your own push pull at play?  Urgency!  :)on't answer his questions or calls.

If something is urgent, then does it make sense to wait or call from a busy place where you can't talk anyway?

Was the original urgent matter ever brought to light/discussed?  

The reason I called the time I did was that I knew that he could pick up then and I wanted to arrange to meet asap and therefore wanted to call when I knew I would definitely get hold of him. I also had to make an errand bc I was running late. I did not plan it this way.

Of course I felt triggered and perhaps my responses could have been better but I did think about everything I sent him before I sent it and I don't see push and pull on my part. I was cautious in my responses. Mon and Tue might possibly be too late to discuss this now which he knew because that was my reason for calling to arrange to meet in the first place so for him to "decide" Mon or Tue is just a power game because he was not able to tolerate the worry the waiting meant for him. I think this is a consequence that he has to live with and then in the future either ask me to call him back or call again. So I don't feel fine with him canceling bc he dysregulated and then expect for me to fix it.

Excerpt
Urgency!  :)on't answer his questions or calls.

What do you mean? I am sorry but I don't follow?  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2014, 09:08:30 AM »

The push-pull would probably be worse the second time around. What do others think?

My ex and I were together for 4 years and we had 3 serious breakups in that time. Counting the breakups as part of the push pull, I would say that in my experience they get worse. The first breakup lasted 7 weeks with some contact, text and phone calls from both of us. The second break lasted 7 months with silent treatment from him for long periods but responding to some texts. This last breakup was by far the craziest thing I have ever experienced or heard of - outside of this forum - with NC for a few months and then absolute and total silent treatment from him for a whole year and then slowly getting to where we are now.

The push pull within the r/s though got better with time but we had CT and now he is in T for himself.
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« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2014, 09:31:31 AM »

I don't think you were playing games but rather setting clear boundaries.

There is a really good article in Psychology Today about how to deal with the "elephant in the room" in interpersonal relationships and I think learning how to approach and deal with conflict is key in mitigating your anxiety over potential stress and possible negative outcomes. In my experience saying what you mean and meaning what you say is key and having the courage to do so is something that just needs work and practice. What also takes practice is not hyperbolizing (goes along with saying what you really mean - i.e. don't use words like "always" in an argument when you really mean "sometimes" and remembering not to assassinate someone's character when you are really just trying to clear the air about certain behaviours that annoy you or cause anxiety or stress.  Everyone has a right to be angry and to speak the truth about it but it's key to control the emotional content especially when dealing with a borderline. They are the same as everyone else except they feel emotions much stronger than nons and don't have as much emotional maturity often to deal with conflict like nons do.

Keep setting your boundaries and keep communicating honestly and keep the power in your hands rather than giving in when he tries to make you feel guilty or ashamed. All it takes is a bit of time and patience and he will come around likely eventually. And if not, well that's a possibility and you need to be open to that fact sadly also (rather than not allow yourself to deal with it and then possibly succumb to his trying to shift the balance of power by guilting you or stonewalling - silent treatment abuse).
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« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2014, 04:33:53 PM »

Counting the breakups as part of the push pull, I would say that in my experience they get worse.

I guess their list of potential triggers gets longer with each breakup?
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« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2014, 04:51:03 PM »

 

Mitti,

My normal advice is to steer people away from texting and emailing about r/s issues.  I think that is even more important with pwBPD.

So... .try to use text to set a time to meet... .or deal with "just information"... .keep feelings about of it.

If he won't pick up the phone... or doesn't show up... that speaks for itself... .

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« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2014, 04:36:32 AM »

I don't think you were playing games but rather setting clear boundaries.

There is a really good article in Psychology Today about how to deal with the "elephant in the room" in interpersonal relationships and I think learning how to approach and deal with conflict is key in mitigating your anxiety over potential stress and possible negative outcomes. In my experience saying what you mean and meaning what you say is key and having the courage to do so is something that just needs work and practice. What also takes practice is not hyperbolizing (goes along with saying what you really mean - i.e. don't use words like "always" in an argument when you really mean "sometimes" and remembering not to assassinate someone's character when you are really just trying to clear the air about certain behaviours that annoy you or cause anxiety or stress.  Everyone has a right to be angry and to speak the truth about it but it's key to control the emotional content especially when dealing with a borderline. They are the same as everyone else except they feel emotions much stronger than nons and don't have as much emotional maturity often to deal with conflict like nons do.

Keep setting your boundaries and keep communicating honestly and keep the power in your hands rather than giving in when he tries to make you feel guilty or ashamed. All it takes is a bit of time and patience and he will come around likely eventually. And if not, well that's a possibility and you need to be open to that fact sadly also (rather than not allow yourself to deal with it and then possibly succumb to his trying to shift the balance of power by guilting you or stonewalling - silent treatment abuse).

Thank you Awesome Jim,  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Very good points. I agree that being authentic to yourself is key, and not seeing things in black and white is just as important for nons. I used to be so conditioned to his back and forth and bc it worked so well for him, there was no reason for him to change. Now that I am changing my behavior and responses it's bound to feel uncomfortable and stressful for him.

Thank you for your encouragement and support.
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« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2014, 04:49:21 AM »

Sorry last post accidentally got posted twice
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« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2014, 04:59:04 AM »

Mitti,

My normal advice is to steer people away from texting and emailing about r/s issues.  I think that is even more important with pwBPD.

So... .try to use text to set a time to meet... .or deal with "just information"... .keep feelings about of it.

If he won't pick up the phone... or doesn't show up... that speaks for itself... .

Hi formflier,

Yes, in my experience this is not a good way for us to communicate but sometimes necessary when he refuses to talk. I don't even like to discuss important things with him over the phone. One reason I texted, apart from hoping he would 'come to his senses' and stick with the previously arranged time to meet, was to call him on this behavior as reacting like this will make dancing together with me or the group impossible. He forgets when he returns to normal why he felt and did differently and to him it's like it never happened. This way I can illustrate what I mean to him.
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« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2014, 05:31:54 AM »

Excerpt
Urgency!  :)on't answer his questions or calls.

What do you mean? I am sorry but I don't follow?  Smiling (click to insert in post)

You called him with an urgent matter from the mall, but couldn't talk about it at the time because it was a busy place that you called from.  He called you back while you were on the other line and you purposely didn't answer his call because you've "relaxed" on these rules of engagement.  He said he'd call you in the morning.  All kinds of thoughts swirled through your head about why you couldn't/shouldn't call him back.  Then he canceled the meet up.  More swirling thoughts ensued... . Along with a strained text exchange.

To me, it's making mountains out of molehills.

I wonder what would have happened if you had sent a text (after listening to his voicemail) saying, "Hi! Got your message, thanks for calling back.  In brief, it's concerning exact details about such and such, which is important and so much easier for me to explain in person.  Looking forward to seeing you tomorrow! Smiling (click to insert in post) Hope you're having a nice night."

Let the old relationship go and start anew!

This is something that cannot easily be discussed over the phone which he also knows and we have talked about that several times. He has agreed to meet before about this situation but then always changed or cancelled or wanted to discuss it over the phone or otherwise been difficult. He is not an easy person to talk to over the phone. So he knew this.

If this is something that has been discussed several times in the past, then what makes you think it will be different this time around?

Perhaps, as much as the both of you would like to be dance partners, it just isn't meant to be?









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« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2014, 06:38:37 AM »

  "Hi! Got your message, thanks for calling back.  In brief, it's concerning exact details about such and such, which is important and so much easier for me to explain in person.  Looking forward to seeing you tomorrow! Smiling (click to insert in post) Hope you're having a nice night." 

123Phoebe... .I think you are on to something.


Two schools of thought... .

Expressing a sentiment and "ending it"... .or expressing a sentiment and putting the ball in his court to "hit back".

Either one is fine... .you sort of have to figure out which works best in this r/s.

Putting the ball back in his court would be something like... "I'm ready to talk... .please call when you are ready... "

Mitti,

Which approach do you think would be best in your r/s?

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