I don't speak BPD very well.

[Angelnme]

Hi all, I travel for work (fairly new job) and part of my territory is Hawaii. My BPDbf is obviously insecure about my being here for 10 days without him. It's only day two and already the accusations have begun.

I started counseling a few months ago. I'm trying to learn "how to speak BPD", or how to RESPOND vs. react. Please help me. He didn't take my calls after work, then I did what my counselor/"Stop Walking On Eggshells" suggests: don't defend, explain, justify. My last text said: "It sounds like you are upset that I'm here without you. Let's discuss it after I eat. I will call u in 30."   I called (2x)  after I ate (35 mins later) and he kicked it to voicemail. Then he texted me: "I'll call u in 30."   I proceeded to do what I understand to do: wait for him to call. Instead of waiting around in my hotel room from 6pm on (which is what I know he wanted), I went out (shopping). At 10pm I got a text that said: "Un___ing real... .as expected. Battery dead... .fell asleep... .didn't bother to call... .heard them all. Day two and like a fish to water you're at the bar. (I don't drink.) shove your excuse up your lying ass."

Where did I go wrong? What do I say/do? How do I deal with his insecurity and accusations without giving in to his expectation of being in my room 24/7?  How do I enjoy myself without the guilt? I completely understand that he is the master of putting me into no-win situations but how do I deal with it? Any advice to help me diffuse his anger (frustration/stress/fear) is greatly appreciated.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

I don't think you did do anything wrong!

His anger is his to deal with. You really can't do anything about his feelings.

His ACTIONS that he picks because he's feeling angry, hurt, rejected, lonely, whatever are different.

Those you can limit your exposure to when he pulls this sort of crap.

Just to clarify--did you go out shopping with your cellphone so you would have got his call if he had tried?

If I read correctly, you tried to call twice, when you said you would, then got a txt saying he would call... .which he didn't. Then hours after that, he gave you a lame excuse for not calling, and threw some abusive crap at you in another text.

One thing I always try to do is not hang on or later confront them with horrible things said during dysregulation like that text you quoted. There really isn't anything valid in it to respond to, other than his hurt feelings. And when you talk to him next, he will be feeling whatever he's feeling at that time, instead of what he was feeling eight hours or three days ago.

[Skip]

One thing I always try to do is not hang on or later confront them with horrible things said during dysregulation like that text you quoted. And when you talk to him next, he will be feeling whatever he's feeling at that time, instead of what he was feeling eight hours or three days ago.

I was going to say the same.

The issue is feeling insecure about what you are doing. I'd share a little more over the next few days.

[takingandsending]

Hello Angel,

One additional thing that you can do:

Those you can limit your exposure to when he pulls this sort of crap.

GK is stating that what you can do is have a boundary.

What are your core values, the stuff that you learned in the SWOE book about yourself? One value that I learned about myself is that I want respectful communication, or no communication. You have to be prepared to be consistent with your boundary and, likely, your bf will not like the boundary (which is okay). If this is something that is essential to you, don't let it be compromised or lost. If he becomes more abusive, validate his hurt and then disengage in whatever means that you must. And give yourself a lot of care and positive strokes when you do it, as you did in the case that you stated. It is absolutely not easy to do, and requires a lot of strength and patience.

I have no issue anymore telling my uBPDw that I will not engage in disrespectful communication and break it off. I will validate her hurt and let her know I will be available to talk later. Her anger is her issue to deal with, not mine. It's okay to call or text your bf in the future to let him know that you are stopping communication for 30 minutes or if still angry, for 1 hour. Get back to him when you say you will and go from there.

Keep posting here and good luck.

[Angelnme]

I did have my cell phone. He didn't try to call. You understood the scenario accurately.

Thank you all for your support.

I have recently discovered that I have become very codependent as a result of this toxic relationship, and have decided to take the necessary steps to detach (safely, if that's possible) and leave. I've allowed myself to be abused for 10 years. Life's too short. He has no regard for any boundary I attempt to put into place (probably because, out of fear, I allowed him to mistreat me for too long). Unfortunately the validation/let's discuss it later technique doesn't work... .he's too controlling, and hold onto his anger for several days.

I am being as gentle and forgiving toward myself as possible. I know that his disorder is not my fault. I want to say that my codependency is his fault but I know better: I

my identity was weak when we met. I see a therapist once a week and practice mindfulness and gratitude. I just don't want to get myself into a similar relationship down the road.

Thank you thank you THANK YOU for your support!

[eyvindr]

Hi Angelnme,

I'm sorry you're going through this. It's very difficult to try to sustain a long-term r-ship with someone who suffers from BPD. Has your bf been diagnosed with the disorder?

I'm glad you found this site. You'll find lots of compassionate people here who are willing to share their insights and experiences. Welcome.

It can be exasperating to try to have a productive conversation when someone suffering from BPD is dysregulated. Not the least of which because if you try to point out that maybe now isn't a good time to talk, they'll quite possibly deny that there's a problem, and might even turn it around and use it as a reason to accuse you of trying to avoid speaking with them for some reason. Frustrating to say the least.

It sounds like you may be further along in your processing of this relationship than many who start here. You sound level-headed, and like you're thinking clearly -- I'm glad you're working with a therapist. The more you are able to share about your r-ship, based on your own comfort level, the better the feedback you will get. I'll say, based only on the little you've shared already -- ten years is a long time to be in an unhappy relationship. Life is short.

Hang in there.

[Grey Kitty]

I ... .have decided to take the necessary steps to detach (safely, if that's possible) and leave.

How can we support you now? Are you looking for help to manage your time before you leave? Looking for help planning how to get out? Or still wanting to try to improve things in your r/s for now.

Are you still living with him today?

He has no regard for any boundary I attempt to put into place

That is something we CAN help you on. Give us an example of a specific boundary and how he blew over it.

Keep on taking care of yourself. Mindfulness and therapy are both very helpful. 

[Angelnme]

Hi friends.

Where to start... .My bf was officially diagnosed with BPD recently, about a year and a half after many of us (family and friends) suspected it. The first 5 years weren't as bad as the second 5 because we lived separately. I thought he was "just the jealous type".  As someone else here wrote, the mask fell off and the monster revealed himself after we merged our lives. I'm sure I'm not the first to refer to his two sides as Jekyll and Hyde. The episodes gradually got worse and worse, and for the last three years I've given serious consideration to leaving. But then Horrible Hyde would go away and the guy I fell in love with would return and yes, I got caught up in that crazy push-pull game and I now find myself addressing my codependency with my therapist. It's embarrassing to admit that my identity and boundaries were much weaker than I thought, but I would be a hypocrite if I remained in denial and didn't seek help to undo the damage.

I've learned that Borderlines, being as needy for validation as they are, will exhaust us with no-win situations, threats, ultimatums, etc... .And my focus became more and more about him and less about me and my needs. Learning about BPD was bittersweet; on the one hand, there was finally a name for him besides ___hole, but on the other hand, I became obsessed with learning everything I could about the disorder. Books, websites, this forum, even documentaries. Did you know Brandon Marshall (Chicago Bears) went public about his BPD through a documentary? I know the terms - splitting, projecting, dysregulated - I became obsessed with understanding him. Initially I thought I was doing it because I could help... .or at least learn how to better communicate with him. But I came to realize that the real reason I put so much emphasis on him was because I had become codependent. Extremely common for non's. I was obsessed with wanting to help someone else, just like the spouse of an alcoholic. So now I'm in therapy and reading "Codependent No More" and shifting the focus back to myself. That's all I will say about codependency because that's a separate forum altogether.

As for him, he won't get help. Not the intense help he needs to learn better emotional control and address the issues that influence his behaviors. It's getting worse as he gets older. He is angry more frequently and more easily, throws things, calls me every name he can muster up... .You all know the laundry list very well. Plus he drinks.

My counselor leveled with me and told me that it won't get better, especially because of the drinking. He drinks an average of 6 beers, 4-5 nights a week. Sometimes none, sometimes much more. The bottom line is that the drinking intensifies the episodes. He said that I can choose to accept the relationship and him for what they are, or leave. Funny thing is, I already knew that deep down. I guess I just put way too much faith into him because is very intelligent and successful at what he does. Initially, it was hard to believe that such a smart guy couldn't see how he was behaving, but I now understand that intelligence and emotions are two very different things. And living with emotional and verbal abuse for the rest of my life is not an option.

To give you an example of a specific boundary that he refuses to recognize: "please don't call me names / swear at me."  Needless to say, that boundary was demolished years ago. Disrespectful communication is the ONLY communication for him, and he'll stop for nothing. Walking into another room doesn't help... .he follows me to continue lashing out. Sometimes it's impossible to leave the scene.  I partly blame myself by staying with him so long. I've repeatedly sent the message that it doesn't matter what boundaries I set, I won't enforce them because I will still be here for you to call me a b___ tomorrow. And the next day.

Sometimes I feel weak, because many of my friends and family have asked why I don't leave him. I'm embarrassed to be perceived as that weak and pathetic. Why would anyone CHOOSE to stay with someone who treats them like crap for so long? How little must I think of myself? I'm also very angry. I'm angry at him but I'm more angry at myself for not being stronger and smarter before now. But I'm working on my self-esteem now and more importantly, I'm planning my escape. It's a little complicated because we have houses, cars, and a business together, and needless to say it all has to be addressed very carefully... .

So how can you help?  You can tell me I'm okay, and that I'm going to be okay.  And I may stop in to ask advice on how to communicate with him better. Example: a girlfriend of mine will be in town this weekend and booked a suite at a nice hotel for girls' night. I don't plan to stay the night, but I'd like to go out with some of my friends for a few hours. I mentioned it to him tonight, while he was in a good mood, and the switch flipped. He is very insecure and has (always had) deep trust issues, and I've dealt with his jealousy and accusations for years. I do include him in group outings, and he and I spend plenty of time together, but I feel that it's healthy and normal to go out without him, too. But because of his intense insecurity, it's always a battle of: do I go and deal with it? "It appears you don't feel comfortable with me going out with friends... .let's discuss it later" doesn't work. And oftentimes I'm asked to "prove" my whereabouts with photos, and I'm not supposed to JADE. Or, do I sacrifice my fun to avoid yet another episode? There have been many times that I cancel plans with good friends because I just don't want to deal with the inevitable episode. At best, he will blow me up with calls and texts... .god forbid if I don't answer on the spot. He intentionally interferes with my fun; I've lost friends over it, and others don't want him around. What's the worst that can happen if I go? He will disappear, which, due to our circumstances, could financially ruin me. Worse yet, he could take my dogs with him. I honestly wouldn't put anything past him considering the things I've been through. I must say, though, the abuse has never been physical.

So, what would you suggest? I may understand the disorder but as my title implies, I still don't speak the language.

Wow I am so sorry for the novel. I'm not even going to go back and edit it as it came a very emotional place. Once again, I can't thank you all enough for being here

[Angelnme]

he will be feeling whatever he's feeling at that time, instead of what he was feeling eight hours or three days ago.


This was invaluable advice to remember... .thank you.

[Grey Kitty]

  You've spent a long time getting to this point, you've even turned around and are looking to get out of the codependent state you are in. It will be a while getting yourself out of it.

Taking back your life, and spending time with friends away from him is a great step to take. I'd recommend you start with this one first. Because anything you push back on him will turn into verbal abuse right now. Once you know how to deal with that, you have a lot less to fear when you work on other areas.

To give you an example of a specific boundary that he refuses to recognize: "please don't call me names / swear at me."  Needless to say, that boundary was demolished years ago. Disrespectful communication is the ONLY communication for him, and he'll stop for nothing. Walking into another room doesn't help... .he follows me to continue lashing out. Sometimes it's impossible to leave the scene.  I partly blame myself by staying with him so long. I've repeatedly sent the message that it doesn't matter what boundaries I set, I won't enforce them because I will still be here for you to call me a b___ tomorrow. And the next day.

There are two things you need to know to succeed on this one.

The first is that he won't like boundary enforcement, and WILL try to escalate things at you to prevent it. If you cave in when he does, you are teaching him that he CAN roll over your boundaries by turning up the volume on the bad behavior. So be prepared for him to try to turn it into WW3, and stay strong.

The second is the difference between setting a rule and enforcing a boundary.

":)on't call me names or swear at me" is a rule.

You are creating a rule, and giving him a choice. He can choose obey the rule. He can choose to break the rule. You've already told me which choice he makes.

Doing it this way gives him all the power. Don't do it.

"I will not be present when you call me names or swear at me" is boundary enforcement.

This shifts the power. YOU have the power to enforce the boundary; it is your choice, not his.

I know you've tried this, and failed. You need more levels to enforce this one beyond walking out of the room. Here are some you can try:

If he follows you into another room, leave the house.

If he blocks your exit, inform him that blocking your exit qualifies as domestic violence (it does!) and that you will dial 9-1-1 immediately if he doesn't get out of the way. I'd recommend saying this with the numbers typed in your cellphone already and your finger near the "connect" button.

If he follows you out of the house, get in your car and drive away.

If he blocks your car from leaving, same as if he stops you from getting out the door.

If he follows you in his car, I'd recommend driving to a police station, and walking in the door.

If things are really out of hand, especially late at night (likely since he drinks then!) be ready to spend the night elsewhere--With a friend or relative (per-arrange that you may need it if you have somebody you can trust), in a motel, at a local domestic violence shelter.

If you plan ahead for these possibilities, you can make it much safer. Keep your keys, cellphone, money/credit card/drivers license ready, so he cannot block your exit. Make sure you car has half a tank of gas, so you can go away without that worry. Consider hiding a change of clothes and some cash somewhere outside the house.

You might call a local DV shelter ahead of time to see what advice they can give, and what resources they will offer you ahead of time.

If you have more time, read this too:

TOOLS: Domestic Violence Against Women

[eyvindr]

Angelnme --

You're ok. It's going to be alright. Sounds like you're making reasonable and rational decisions.

The Grey cat makes a lot of good points. I especially like how he explains the difference between a rule and a boundary. I've lived that myself. I tried to set personal boundaries with my ex -- I say tried to because she disregarded them. I enforced them, too. I set them with her by telling her -- this is a boundary, and if you cross it, I will remove myself. She just set rules, and would call them boundaries. I think this is why she always disregarded my boundaries -- she wasn't able to tell the difference. To her, it was all just a bunch of words, and all words are to her are tools to persuade or manipulate people into giving her what she wants, or accepting her view of the world.

As an example -- when she would start demeaning me as a partner, and I would tell her that I wasn't feeling like our conversation was productive and wanted to get off the phone, she'd refuse to, and I'd say goodbye and hang up on her. That is boundary enforcement. On the other side, she told me that she was enforcing a boundary, which was that it was unacceptable to her for me to hang up on her. That was a rule. If could have been a boundary if, when I hung up on her, she removed herself from the relationship, but she didn't -- she just called back. Hundreds of times. She didn't respect boundaries at all -- emotional, physical, financial, time -- none of them. She just wanted what she wanted, and felt that, if I loved her, I'd give it to her.

One of the saddest things I had to deal with was always hearing her say things like, "I can't believe you won't do this for me -- if you ever asked me for this, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to do it for you." Of course, she was referring to something that I would never expect someone else to do for me, because it's either inappropriate or simply not anyone else's responsibility. She never understood how unfair a statement that was -- telling me that she'd happily do for me something she'd never have to worry about doing for me.

[Grey Kitty]

One other tip about enforcing boundaries:

There is no need to tell your partner about the boundary. All the actions I described can be taken without giving any warning in advance that you will respond to his escalations.

In your case, I would specifically recommend you NOT tell him in advance how you will handle his escalation when he starts verbally abusing you. You have already asked him not to do it many times. This sort of 'warning' or 'notification' would just be seen as provocative to him. No need to create a fight BEFORE he starts verbally abusing you!

The actions will teach him how you let yourself be treated, far far better than your words would.

[eyvindr]

Grey --

Here's the rub for me, in a nutshell --

The actions will teach him how you let yourself be treated, far far better than your words would.

It never worked. No matter how consistent I was, no matter how strict -- my ex never learned. As soon as I returned to the r-ship, she would repeat her boundary-busting behaviors. And I'd reinforce the boundary, and the cycle would continue. That's why I had to leave. I really couldn't live with it, and felt like I was trying to have a mature, intimate, respectful relationship with a child who was incapable of being an adult.

I couldn't even have a discussion with her about leaving -- because every time it would trigger an onslaught of arguing and abuse. So, I finally told her I wasn't going to do it again, and hung up, and haven't spoken to her in almost 5 months. No emails, no messages -- had to have her warned to stop her from continuing to harass me endlessly. The result? Her splitting campaign, where this time she's labeled me a sociopath. She never accepted why I felt I needed out -- which was that her behaviors and the dynamic of neediness made me miserable. It made her miserable, too, but she felt that it was just "part of being in a relationship." If she's right, then I guess I'm not meant to be in one, because I'm not into it. She argued that, if you really loved someone, you could overlook all of these things. She had a very specific list of things that she agreed were reasons to end a relationship:

cheating, flirting around online and in real life, stealing, abusing drugs, getting drunk all the time, charging up my partner's credit cards, lying, losing my job over and over, running around with other guys, refusing to offer emotional support to my partner, gambling and being irresponsible

That's her actual list. And I agree -- those are some bad behaviors that can easily be deal-breakers. Every time the relationship would reach the breaking point, I had to hear that list reiterated again, under the guise of, "Wait -- am I to believe that you're breaking up with me? I can't believe this! You're treating me like I'm <insert list here>!" -- the gist of her argument being that if she were doing any of those things, I'd have just cause to break up. But she wasn't, so I was out of line, being unreasonable, unrealistic and crazy. She considered incompatibility to be "an excuse."

Sometimes I thought that if she suspected that she might have BPD, she'd come up with an "intellectual cure" for herself on her own -- that as long as she abstained from any of those behaviors, she didn't have BPD anymore. She did this often -- solving her problems in her head, by changing her opinion, versus actually addressing something in real time. I could easily see her looking at BPD as if it was a collection of bad habits, versus a deep-seated emotional disorder. Which fits into the BPD m.o. -- and doesn't involve all of the tediousness of therapy or a long-term commitment to treatment.

It still gets me wound up thinking and talking about it. I really loved her. I really wanted us to spend our lives together. I tried to make it work. I tried to help, I wanted to help her. I was patient. But she made it impossible. By the end, I was starting to dread hearing from her, because that chance that the interaction was going to be negative or unpleasant really was at least 50/50. And, by "unpleasant," I include the times when she was insisting that I do something I wasn't interested in doing, or accept her views on something I just didn't agree with. In short, ant time I was simply being an individual, separate from her. There's the boundary problem again.

By the end, I was out of energy and patience, and I left. There's no closure because there's no choice.

(wait for it) -- Exasperating.

[eyvindr]

Apparently I speak BPD fluently. Not really a point of pride.

[Grey Kitty]

Grey --

Here's the rub for me, in a nutshell --

The actions will teach him how you let yourself be treated, far far better than your words would.

It never worked. No matter how consistent I was, no matter how strict -- my ex never learned. As soon as I returned to the r-ship, she would repeat her boundary-busting behaviors. And I'd reinforce the boundary, and the cycle would continue. That's why I had to leave. I really couldn't live with it, and felt like I was trying to have a mature, intimate, respectful relationship with a child who was incapable of being an adult.

I couldn't even have a discussion with her about leaving -- because every time it would trigger an onslaught of arguing and abuse.

eyvindr, your relationship is over, so you cannot put this into practice... .but how you described it isn't how I see successful boundary enforcement working. (If I'm miss-reading what you did, I apologize)

The way to handle abusive behavior is to remove yourself IMMEDIATELY from the abusive behavior. As soon as it starts. You don't have to break up to do this, just go away for 20 minutes.

And when you return, if the abusive behavior resumes, you go away again. Generally for a longer time since the last one wasn't long enough for things to calm down.

When you say she was boundary-busting, to me, that means you were failing to enforce your boundaries.

It is possible that she will choose not to be in a r/s with you if you won't let her abuse you--that is her choice. Many of us here have found that our partner chose to find other coping mechanisms rather than abusing us when we took that option away from them, and seen drastic improvements. Others have successfully enforced boundaries, and found that they still had to end their r/s, or their partner ended the r/s anyway. There are no guarantees about the outcome for the relationship.

I will say that everybody I know who has chosen to not let them-self be abused anymore has felt so much better about that choice, and every step along the way of standing up and not accepting abuse felt right (if difficult) and motivated the next step in that direction.

[eyvindr]

Hi Grey,

Appreciate your response -- and, no -- you aren't misreading it.

eyvindr, your relationship is over, so you cannot put this into practice... .but how you described it isn't how I see successful boundary enforcement working. (If I'm miss-reading what you did, I apologize)

The way to handle abusive behavior is to remove yourself IMMEDIATELY from the abusive behavior. As soon as it starts. You don't have to break up to do this, just go away for 20 minutes.

And when you return, if the abusive behavior resumes, you go away again. Generally for a longer time since the last one wasn't long enough for things to calm down.

That's pretty much accurate, Grey. That's what I tried to do. I definitely agree that I "felt better" knowing that I had boundaries and was sticking to them, as opposed to being walked all over.

But what I meant to share was that, in my case, this began to pretty much characterize my entire relationship with my ex. It was one continuous stream of boundary enforcement which, to me, isn't a relationship that I want to be in. In terms of my emotions, I felt like our relationship had been consumed by this bizarre dance -- which I didn't want to be doing, which I never signed up for, and which I'm not in any way obligated to continue. No matter how long or how often I enforced boundaries, the only thing that happened was I retained my self-respect. The relationship didn't get better. My ex didn't change her behaviors -- she just got angry and depressed even more often. My boundary-setting, in her world, was abusive -- she told me so every time. What you and I refer to as "removing ourselves" she labels as the silent treatment. Yet, despite claiming that I was abusing her, she didn't choose to leave. In fact, I'm fairly certain that if I were to contact her right now, the relationship would begin again. And follow exactly the same path -- because that's what happened the last two times we got back together. She begged me both times to give the relationship another chance, and I did. Both times were a repeat -- just with me having less patience and enforcing boundaries harder. Now, she claims that she took me back!

It was, frankly, for me, impossible. I left. I had to. And she never would have left. Which is sweet, but in the most twisted way. Because I know she really loved me -- but staying with her would have meant a lifetime of misery for both of us. I left because I was tired of it. If that means I didn't love her enough, so be it. Some relationships just don't work out.