infidelity and BPD... more likely or a myth?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Are people with BPD more likely to cheat statistically or is that a myth? I am experiencing a lot of jealousy and insecurity in this area. There are no signs of a physical affair in my case and I am quite vigilant in this area because of a previous experience. I am working on my codspendency and reactions and my gf is on the mild end of the spectrum of BPD but I don't trust her at a basic level. I don't know how to resolve this as it is a major block for me in terms of taking the rs forward to marriage.

[CommittedToMyself]

Are people with BPD more likely to cheat statistically or is that a myth? I am experiencing a lot of jealousy and insecurity in this area. There are no signs of a physical affair in my case and I am quite vigilant in this area because of a previous experience. I am working on my codspendency and reactions and my gf is on the mild end of the spectrum of BPD but I don't trust her at a basic level. I don't know how to resolve this as it is a major block for me in terms of taking the rs forward to marriage.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MissyM]

There are no signs of a physical affair in my case and I am quite vigilant in this area because of a previous experience.

Were the previous experience in this relationship?  Just wondering if you mean your previous experience in another relationship or within this one.

[CommittedToMyself]

No a previous rs... .even in that case it wasn't a confirmed instance of cheating... .it was just an experience with a narcissist who totally conned me into believing I could trust her when she was completely untrustworthy... .It's left me very aware that some people can lie very very easily and comfortably.

[hurthusband]

If i am not mistaken, BPDs do have a higher rate of cheating, BUT alot has to do with them feeling rejected or about to be rejected.  It is not that they are sex addicts. 

So by you being overly suspicious and non-trusting, you could actually make your fear a reality.

I been through it... Unfortunately, I do not think there is a way to actually protect yourself besides trusting and hoping they do not abuse it.  If they do, boundary, but once could be a deal breaker.

[MissyM]

BPDs do have a higher rate of cheating, BUT alot has to do with them feeling rejected or about to be rejected.  It is not that they are sex addicts. 

Um, multiple addictions is one of the indicators for BPD.  So BPDs can be sex addicts but not all are or all have addictions.

Anyhow, that is not what it sounds like you are dealing with.  It sounds like a lot of this is about your own wounding and distrust in a relationship.  Has your BPDgf ever given any indication that she operates this way?  I know a couple of BPD women and none of them ever cheated on their spouses.  They have other issues but that just wasn't one of them.  What are you doing to handle your issues around distrust?  Is your BPDgf understanding of this issue?

[maxsterling]

Not sure if there is a reasonable answer to your question because each pwBPD is different, and there are plenty of unfaithful nonBPD people out there - so my answer is "it depends".  What do you consider cheating?  I think many of the times we consider a BPD as cheating, they don't consider it cheating because to them they aren't in a committed relationship.  

-Suppose I have been dating a woman a month, seeing each other 2-3 times per week, and she decides to sleep with someone else.  I would consider her as unfaithful, and she would say that at 1 month, the relationship is not exclusive yet.  

- Suppose I have been dating a woman for a year.  :)efinitely committed and exclusive.  Then she meets some other guy, flirts with him, then breaks up with me to jump into bed with him the next day.  I say she cheated, but to her she broke up with me first, so she did not cheat on me.  

I guess my point is that someone can do a study that says pwBPD are more likely to have more sexual partners during their lives, have less time between sexual partners (both of which I have read before), but the definitions of infidelity and cheating are subjective.  What you consider cheating, the pwBPD probably does not.  

[maxsterling]

oops, duplicate post 

[formflier]

 

Make sure... very sure... .that you don't "hang" r/s issues or traits from one r/s onto the next.  It can be hard... .

Not fair to you... or to the other person.

[CommittedToMyself]

Thx for all of your replies. Very helpful to get this feedback. I have started to go to a support group to work on being less dependent on my gf and to deal with my own core issues. I have had them for a long time but I find I go in cycles with them and it seems to take a long time to get rid of codependent traits and ruminations.

I have witnessed my partner lie about other things so I think it is the dishonesty that triggered or feeds my paranoia. And she had an emotional affair when in a previous relationship and has a lot of male interest so I struggle with this... .but the more I value myself the less threatening I will find all this I believe.

Infidelity is a deal-breaker for me... .even if it only happened once I would be gone. If she ends a rs with me and goes with another guy soon after I don't view that as cheating... .that sort of thing can happen... .it's deception within a rs that I would find entirely destructive.

I think perhaps the only answer is valuing myself far more and accepting that if it happens I can leave and that will be that. I don't want to drive her into behaviours underground and I think that's what will happen if I continue being so suspicious.

[Starless]

I have witnessed my partner lie about other things so I think it is the dishonesty that triggered or feeds my paranoia.

I am struggling with this exact same thing as well. Unfortunately I also know my BPD husband was unfaithful in his past relationship. I truly foresee a divorce in my future, but I kind of feel better because this whole situation is causing me to get some long overdue help that I've needed for years. The most important thing is to take care of yourself. I am learning that.

[Grey Kitty]

pwBPD do tend toward impulsive behavior, and bad decisions.

For some, cheating is their 'normal' pattern. For others, it isn't.

I've got a couple thoughts for you, from my own experience:

1. Are you a jealous guy normally? Have you been cheated on before? Have you been jealous of previous gf's, whether they were doing something inappropriate or not?

I'm not normally jealous, and the first time I was jealous of another guy, my wife was having some sort of emotional affair with him. I've concluded that my feelings of jealousy are telling me that something is going on, and I would do well to pay attention. It might not be cheating, or might not be cheating yet... .but something is happening and I should know more about it.

2. How do you and she handle behavior like flirting? Some people can make flirting just a game where both parties know it is a game, know it is fun, and know that it isn't going to go beyond the flirting level. (A pwBPD is more likely to get themselves in trouble this way 'tho.)

3. Does she accuse you of cheating, flirting, or having inappropriate interest in other women? I ask because her feelings on this matter too. And also because she may be projecting something onto you.

[hurthusband]

BPDs do have a higher rate of cheating, BUT alot has to do with them feeling rejected or about to be rejected.  It is not that they are sex addicts. 

Um, multiple addictions is one of the indicators for BPD.  So BPDs can be sex addicts but not all are or all have addictions.

Anyhow, that is not what it sounds like you are dealing with.  It sounds like a lot of this is about your own wounding and distrust in a relationship.  Has your BPDgf ever given any indication that she operates this way?  I know a couple of BPD women and none of them ever cheated on their spouses.  They have other issues but that just wasn't one of them.  What are you doing to handle your issues around distrust?  Is your BPDgf understanding of this issue?

are they addictions though or are they just symptoms of trying to fill an empty hole?

with therapy on addressing their emptiness does the addiction then go away... unlike an addict who always has the impulse.  They just learn to cope

[maxsterling]

are they addictions though or are they just symptoms of trying to fill an empty hole?

Since my wife is a recovering heroin addict, and through going to AA/NA meetings with her, and my own Alanon meetings and research into this area, an addiction *is* trying to fill an empty hole, and nearly every addict will describe it this way.  That from early childhood they felt a hole, and they tried this and that to fill it.

with therapy on addressing their emptiness does the addiction then go away... unlike an addict who always has the impulse.  They just learn to cope

As long as the "hole" is there, the addict will always have an impulse, no matter if their fix was heroin, sex, gambling, eating, etc.  In my opinion, there is no difference.  That's why so many substance abusers have problems with so many areas after they technically "sober up".  When I talk with my wife's AA friends, when I go to meetings with her, or when I go to alanon meetings I realize that most people don't fill the "hole", they just turn to some other way of filling it.   Some people may turn to something constructive and healthy, like exercise, but the typical addict seems to turn to something else - smoking, eating, gambling, shopping, etc.  *If* they can learn to manage the "hole" the addiction will go away, but that is a big *if*.

My wife no longer uses heroin.  That's a good thing.  But CLEARLY she is still an active addict.  She binges on junk food when she is depressed.  Or she compulsively shops.  300 bucks on face cream one day when she just lost her job.  Before she met me, she would go through periods where she would sleep around.  And I think that now she is in a committed relationship and is forced into monogamy, I think she has shifted her addictions more towards food and spending.   

[hurthusband]

Yea... an addict is an addict, but it doesnt necessarily mean it will be sex.  If it is, that addiction can be replaced.

After seeing AA at work, and seen many people use it to help.  The thing I have noticed is that AA does not really help even curb addiction, it just replaces the addiction with an addiction to AA many times or to something more healthy

I am not complaining... we all have vices and we all have things we spend a bit too much time on.  Its great its re-channeled. 

[maxsterling]

After seeing AA at work, and seen many people use it to help.  The thing I have noticed is that AA does not really help even curb addiction, it just replaces the addiction with an addiction to AA many times or to something more healthy

Agree a million percent here.  I have mixed feelings about the 12-step programs.  On the positive, drugs and alcohol abuse are a certain early death, so replacing those addictions with something else is always the first step. But from my experience, I think there are plenty of "sober drunks" in AA - those who haven't drank in years but still act the same way and feel like all their issues are cured now because they are sober.  I think that is definitely true in the case of my wife - she does at times admit to her issues, yet still won't go so far as to actively work on them.  Instead I think a lot of her AA friends help validate her "life sucks" attitude.  I really only know what I have observed, but it seems to me it takes a couple of decades of not indulging in the addiction before someone really starts not being addiction-driven (no longer feels there is a hole that needs to be filled).

[shatra]

Hurthusband wrote---

After seeing AA at work, and seen many people use it to help.  The thing I have noticed is that AA does not really help even curb addiction, it just replaces the addiction with an addiction to AA many times or to something more healthy

---I disagree. AA has the steps, tools, and companionship to curb addiction. Many in AA are not "addicted" to meetings, they benefit greatly from them. And those who are "addicted" to meetings are better off than when they were drinking. Meetings are a healthy thing, while active alcoholism is not. 

  Masterling points to people in meetings who still don't act as people think they should. This doesn't mean AA doesn't work, it means those individuals are not working the program as well as they could. And even then, I'd rather have them in AA and not drinking, than drinking and putting everyone around them at risk

Shatra

[CommittedToMyself]

I think this has come up in my case through a combination of factors. I previously had a rs with a woman with npd. had no boundaries and was walked over and then developed an awareness of being violated and became very sensitive to boundary violations. With my gf now I experience her violating certain boundaries, sometimes subtly and it leads me to think if she can violate that boundary perhaps she could justify cheating if she felt the need. It's that wall that exists sometimes where you feel that the person still lives a bit in isolation from you, in survival mode. I did read some of my gfs Facebook mags to other guys a while ago (inappropriate I know and haven't done it since) and they just seemed very flirty and open and my gf can be very seductive to men even though she claims she is just being friendly and is not misleading them. The row started with her sending emoticons with kisses on to a guy who she knew previoussly was attracted to her. I said I wouldn't do that to a woman as I thought it could lead her on and arouse suspicion unnecessarily. She also ge

[Grey Kitty]

Hmmm... .sounds like she is pretty flirtatious, and either not very self-aware and self-controlled about it, or she's not being very honest about it.

Either one would make me nervous too.

I'm going to suggest that you think long and hard about what your limits are. If I remember correctly, you said that cheating was a r/s ending issue for you. So define cheating, in terms of what actually matters to you.

Is it sex?

Is it emotional intimacy?

Is there a physical limit, short of sex?

What if she kisses a guy?

Is flirting OK with you?

Are there limits on what kind of flirting is OK?

Do you set different limits for random guys on the street vs. her ex's?

This is hard to think about... .but important.

It looks very much like she will push your limits here, so you absolutely cannot afford to have mushy boundaries. They need to be firm and sharp.

Up to a point, she's fine, and you don't need to stop her.

Beyond that point you're gone.


... .whatever your limits are... .you need to trust her some. This stuff of snooping in her email/phone/facebook rapidly gets toxic in a relationship. Please don't get in that kind of habit.

[Cat Familiar]

My first BPDh was a sex addict and he had numerous sexual relationships that he hid from me. It was unbelievably painful to be married to that man when I started discovering who he was. He even tried to get free sex from hookers and succeeded on occasion. (Later on he confessed to that as well as a variety of sins when he claimed he was breaking away from his bad habits. I don't know if he actually changed his ways as he was very good at keeping secrets.)

My current BPDh has given me no reason to suspect him of infidelity. However, he loves being appreciated by women.

I have sort of a PTSD reaction to his rather innocent flirtations with women. I'm not inherently a jealous person, but I was so burned by the first one that I don't want to be naive or ignorant again.

[SlyQQ]

statistcally the awnser is people with BPD are more likly to cheat

[SlyQQ]

To clarify one of the tennants often associated with BPD is low impulse control and subsequent risky behaviour often associated with a hypo (low ) manic phase

[waverider]

One of the traits of a pwBPD is that they get impulses/needs/obsessions easily over many things. They see these needs only from their view point, with little regard to the consequences on others. In effect satisfying these "needs" is their own business and non of yours.

So going back to the issue of affairs the problem is that the barriers to going ahead with the thought are lower as they see it as their business not yours. They compartmentalize it. The deep down feeling of it being wrong is not there.

This does not mean a pwBPD will be unfaithful, but if the temptation does arise the likelihood of  it being acted on, and justified in their own mind is greater.

Replacing one addiction with another is very common as a result of single minded fixation issues, and lack of personal boundaries/limits. It is often a case of replacing unhealthy addictions with healthier ones.

[Cat Familiar]

One of the traits of a pwBPD is that they get impulses/needs/obsessions easily over many things. They see these needs only from their view point, with little regard to the consequences on others. In effect satisfying these "needs" is their own business and none of yours.

So going back to the issue of affairs the problem is that the barriers to going ahead with the thought are lower as they see it as their business not yours. They compartmentalize it. The deep down feeling of it being wrong is not there.

Thanks, Waverider, this is really helpful. In speaking to my T, she has spoken about my H's "narcissistic wound" (she saw both of us previously in MC) and I've struggled with that concept. His father was definitely a narcissist, but I don't see that typically in my H.

However, when his needs are thwarted, he can become very "selfish" and the concern he has for other people flies out the window. You explain this well.

My previous H could be so sensitive to me at times but then completely callous, so I thought he might be a narcissist, but BPD fits much better. 

[MissyM]

Agree a million percent here.  I have mixed feelings about the 12-step programs.  On the positive, drugs and alcohol abuse are a certain early death, so replacing those addictions with something else is always the first step. But from my experience, I think there are plenty of "sober drunks" in AA - those who haven't drank in years but still act the same way and feel like all their issues are cured now because they are sober.

Max, it is interesting.  I hear a lot of people in Alanon that were in AA for years, express that they didn't really get healthy until they started going to Alanon.  That they were still very dysfunctional with other people and relationships and that came from family origin before they started using any substance.  So the substance has to be dealt with first and then the dysfunctional relationship issue.  I also hear from people that are sex addicts that have multiple addictions, that they didn't really recover until getting help for sex addiction.  I think that is because the accepted approach for SA includes 12 step (including sponsor and step work), individual therapy, group therapy (with workbooks) and eventually couples therapy. 

My girlfriend that has BPD is just now doing the Alanon work, even though she did AA for years and therapy.  She is seeing that she never got down to her relationship issues, which still haunt her.

[maxsterling]

Missy, I have heard that too from people at al-anon meetings - how they had been in AA for decades, finally went to alanon, and it was only then their lives became manageable.  Personally, I really think it could help my wife.  Actually, she did go to alanon for awhile, but I think, like most people, she went because she was trying to fix someone else's problem.  As someone who has gone for awhile myself, it was at least a year before I really understood that I was there for myself and not to fix others.  She has also gone to 12 step programs for her eating issues and sex issues, and right now it feels like it is finally clicking in her brain that they are all related.

BTW, I'm not trying to knock AA or other programs or the people that have effectively used AA to overcome their addictions.   My only point was that from my experience, many of the people I have met associated with those programs clearly sill have other serious issues even if they have been "sober" for a number of years, and I think many of them are in denial about those issues.  Stopping the dangerous substance abuse is the first and most important step, but I think many people tend to stop there (at least for awhile) and the real healing comes later. 

[Mr.Downtrodden]

One of the traits of a pwBPD is that they get impulses/needs/obsessions easily over many things. They see these needs only from their view point, with little regard to the consequences on others. In effect satisfying these "needs" is their own business and non of yours.

So going back to the issue of affairs the problem is that the barriers to going a head with the thought are lower as they see it as their business not yours. They compartmentalize it. The deep down feeling of it being wrong is not there.

This does not mean a pwBPD will be unfaithful, but if the temptation does arise the likelihood of  it being acted on, and justified in their own mind is greater.

Replacing one addiction with another is very common as a result of single minded fixation issues, and lack of personal boundaries/limits. It is often a case of replacing unhealthy addictions with healthier ones.

Spot ON.

My ex GF used to be rather ambiguous -  that whatever went on when I wasn't around (her sleeping with other guys) was of no concern to me. Because she loved me, and not the other guys, it was OK in her impulsive mode.  In her compartmentalized thinking, sex was a way to reward someone for doing something, a transaction, something to brighten the day. Then she moved the line right along... .

[waverider]

However, when his needs are thwarted, he can become very "selfish" and the concern he has for other people flies out the window. You explain this well.

 

Thwarting their meeting of their needs is seen as interfering and attempting to control, triggering the BPD backlash

[waverider]

BTW, I'm not trying to knock AA or other programs or the people that have effectively used AA to overcome their addictions.   My only point was that from my experience, many of the people I have met associated with those programs clearly sill have other serious issues even if they have been "sober" for a number of years, and I think many of them are in denial about those issues.  Stopping the dangerous substance abuse is the first and most important step, but I think many people tend to stop there (at least for awhile) and the real healing comes later. 

Alcoholism, and many other addictions are often the out of control coping mechanisms to deal with deeper issues. I went through this too going to Alanon to learn how to deal with my partners alcoholism. Thought this was the real issue cormorbid with OCD and anxiety disorders.

Partner is now sober for almost 2 years now. The more the drinking was addressed the more obvious (to me) that it was full blown BPD driving all this. A lot of the irrational behavior was driven by BPD not the drinking. Alcoholism was more of a symptom than a cause.

[Grey Kitty]

I have many people close to me who have done alanon or coda, and know a few that have done AA as well. I've never been to a 12-step meeting, so take my comments with a grain of salt, but I'm going to throw in my $.02 anyhow.

1. There are many people who were helped by 12-step programs, or have stayed sober with them. So they obviously work for some people.

2. There are also many people who tried them and clearly did not get good results. Obviously they don't work for some people.

3. Culturally they are considered the primary/only solution for addiction problems.

4. I'm not aware of any credible sounding research showing higher success rates for 12-step programs than alternatives. I don't know of much good information like that at all.

And for me... .I have real trouble wrapping my brain around how the idea of 'abstinance' which works for drinking or drug addiction gets morphed into something comprehensive and helpful for issues like sex or overeating where literal abstinence is either nearly impossible or ultimately fatal.

When I think of it... .I suspect that the alanon / coda type programs are probably a LOT more effective than the 12-step addiction programs. At least anecdotally I know of several people who did those programs for a while, figured out what they needed, gave back to the community for a while, then moved on. I don't know of anyone who went though AA that way.

[maxsterling]

Alcoholism, and many other addictions are often the out of control coping mechanisms to deal with deeper issues. I went through this too going to Alanon to learn how to deal with my partners alcoholism. Thought this was the real issue cormorbid with OCD and anxiety disorders.

Partner is now sober for almost 2 years now. The more the drinking was addressed the more obvious (to me) that it was full blown BPD driving all this. A lot of the irrational behavior was driven by BPD not the drinking. Alcoholism was more of a symptom than a cause.

This is where I fundamentally differ from AA or NA, and I think ultimately why those programs don't work for some people.  It requires people to accept that alcoholism is a disease in which they are powerless over.  Personally, I don't think alcoholism (or addiction) is a disease.  I see addiction as a symptom of a deeper disease and not the disease itself, and I think that is exposed when a person "sobers up".  I think if more people accepted that the addiction is part of a deeper problem that requires more than just the 12-steps to solve, I think more people would find long term happiness. 

[maxsterling]

And for me... .I have real trouble wrapping my brain around how the idea of 'abstinance' which works for drinking or drug addiction gets morphed into something comprehensive and helpful for issues like sex or overeating where literal abstinence is either nearly impossible or ultimately fatal.

I have a story along those lines - my wife clearly has had issues with sleeping around and having loose boundaries when it comes to sex.  It seems to give her great shame.  A few years ago, she was in love with a guy, who eventually basically ran off on her (I'm sure it was because of her neediness/BPD behavior).  She still holds resentment towards this guy.  Anyway, she met the guy through AA, and she blamed his running off on that he was newly sober and "didn't have much time" - meaning she thought he was emotionally immature.  So, because he was an addict, and couldn't seem to let him go, she turned to alanon.  She found a sponsor, started working the steps, but when her sponsor tried to tell her that she had sex addiction issues and that she should abstain from dating or having sex for a period of time, she scoffed at the idea, labeled her sponsor as "too Christian" and quit going to alanon.  In hindsight, the sponsor was 100% correct, as she wound up reacting by sleeping around, getting pregnant, having an abortion, and one more level of shame and self hatred she is now working through. 

I agree that total abstinence can't be the solution for sex or food addicts.  But a temporary abstinence from sex or unhealthy foods could help build some level of self control.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

I agree that total abstinence can't be the solution for sex or food addicts.  But a temporary abstinence from sex or unhealthy foods could help build some level of self control.

I believe those with deeper addiction to impulse issues, ie transient, but intense addictions, often require the forced abstinence to break the cycle. True the obsession can move to something else but once broken they can more easily move on, the old addiction not having the same hold as those with single addiction issues (eg pure alcoholics). This is probably because their thoughts are now given free reign over something else rather than living everyday being thwarted from their one ingrained weakness.

Of course the danger in this is that they can quickly declare themselves "cured" of their former issue and hence lower their safe guards. Then the issue that caused them to delve into it(eg underlying PD)  rears its head and suddenly its on again.

Until the underlying PD is addressed it is sneaking around in the background lighting spot fires which if unattended soon rage out of control.

AA and such focuses too much on the one fire without fingering the firebug.

When I tried to bring the underlying issues up in Alanon, it was always sidelined, possibly because those not dealing with things like BPD have no idea about it.

This is the difficulty with mental illness as it often encompasses a real mix and match, even here we are not always dealing with straight BPD, and we can't be familiar with everything.

[shatra]

Waverider wrote

"Of course the danger in this is that they can quickly declare themselves "cured" of their former issue and hence lower their safe guards. Then the issue that caused them to delve into it(eg underlying PD)  rears its head and suddenly its on again.Until the underlying PD is addressed it is sneaking around in the background lighting spot fires which if unattended soon rage out of control.

    AA and such focuses too much on the one fire without fingering the firebug.

When I tried to bring the underlying issues up in Alanon, it was always sidelined, possibly because those not dealing with things like BPD have no idea about it."

----Although some alcoholics also have personality disorders or other psychiatric problems, alcoholism is a biological disease. It isn't caused by personality disorders, and there is no cure for alcoholism, there is only treatment.

   BPD has various symptoms, and a common one is substance abuse, but that is different than the actual disease of alcoholism... .so it's true that some pwBPD abuse drugs as part of their disorder. But alcoholism is an actual disease, and AA exists to help save alcoholics' lives, not to address other psychological issues.  Some BPs abuse alcohol, and other BPs are alcoholics. It is great to address both issue, and it's true that once alcoholics become sober they may still have BP or other disorders, and yes it's great for them to address these as well.  AA is to help alcoholics get sober and stay sober.

Shatra

[MissyM]

Wow, lots going on on this thread that I find interesting.

Waverider,

When I tried to bring the underlying issues up in Alanon, it was always sidelined, possibly because those not dealing with things like BPD have no idea about it.

I must be lucky, or they are also unlucky, but a lot of people in both my Alanon group and COSA group have spouses with PDs and I find a lot of support and understanding.

Max,

It requires people to accept that alcoholism is a disease in which they are powerless over.   Personally, I don't think alcoholism (or addiction) is a disease.

Well, I don't know if it is just the word disease that is an issue because I don't really like that word either but there is definitely damage to the brain in an addict that is different than others.  My eldest did addiction research at NIH and is a published researcher (although she has switched to a different career) and there are definitely neural pathways that are different in addicts (all addicts).  She could explain it in better detail than I possibly can.

But a temporary abstinence from sex or unhealthy foods could help build some level of self control.

They recommend at least 90 days to clear the brain.

[waverider]

Waverider wrote

"Of course the danger in this is that they can quickly declare themselves "cured" of their former issue and hence lower their safe guards. Then the issue that caused them to delve into it(eg underlying PD)  rears its head and suddenly its on again.Until the underlying PD is addressed it is sneaking around in the background lighting spot fires which if unattended soon rage out of control.

    AA and such focuses too much on the one fire without fingering the firebug.

When I tried to bring the underlying issues up in Alanon, it was always sidelined, possibly because those not dealing with things like BPD have no idea about it."

----Although some alcoholics also have personality disorders or other psychiatric problems, alcoholism is a biological disease. It isn't caused by personality disorders, and there is no cure for alcoholism, there is only treatment.

   BPD has various symptoms, and a common one is substance abuse, but that is different than the actual disease of alcoholism... .so it's true that some pwBPD abuse drugs as part of their disorder. But alcoholism is an actual disease, and AA exists to help save alcoholics' lives, not to address other psychological issues.  Some BPs abuse alcohol, and other BPs are alcoholics. It is great to address both issue, and it's true that once alcoholics become sober they may still have BP or other disorders, and yes it's great for them to address these as well.  AA is to help alcoholics get sober and stay sober.

Shatra

Totally agree, the point being that there needs to be an awareness that the problem is not just alcoholism alone

[borderdude]

My ex BPD , tried to get infidel with me , but why?

- her current boyfriend made signs leaving her, it triggers fears of leaving.

It is a part of the illness, an underdeveloped mind cannot handle the responsability and pain going trough a hurtful  separation process.

It felt like a little child abandoned by her caregiver, i am still her backup, only because it is easier to warm up old leftovers.

[4kidz]

for me lying and or infidelity would be a deal breaker. After all the pain, suffering, frustration, bewilderement I have been through yet decided to stay out of love for her . I could not stand infidelity. All of the life would be sucked out of the relationship. Just thinking about it as a possibilty creates a knot in my stomach that is hard to describe... .

[SlyQQ]

To me it is almost inconcievable for a BPD not to lie ( they are soo good at it ) anything is possible though i guess

[Mutt]

BPD is an emotional based disordered. Dissociations ( lying ) and altering reality to match a pwBPD out of place feelings. I can relate how painful infidelity is.

[waverider]

To me it is almost inconcievable for a BPD not to lie ( they are soo good at it ) anything is possible

though i guess

Having a completely different and shifting reality means what you would call twisting and lying inevitable. The important thing to be able to do is to separate this from the outright malicous lying.

It is a bit like being a poor witness rather than serious perpetrator of deception. The former you can just work with, the latter needs some actions to protect yourself

[shatra]

Waverider wrote

Having a completely different and shifting reality means what you would call twisting and lying inevitable. The important thing to be able to do is to separate this from the outright malicous lying.

=====Good point. It seems that for them, feelings = facts.  So when they are angry, they distort a situation as all bad. When they calm down, they report the same situation in a very different way. Which they would not call lying.

Shatra

[waverider]

Waverider wrote

Having a completely different and shifting reality means what you would call twisting and lying inevitable. The important thing to be able to do is to separate this from the outright malicous lying.

=====Good point. It seems that for them, feelings = facts.  So when they are angry, they distort a situation as all bad. When they calm down, they report the same situation in a very different way. Which they would not call lying.

Shatra

This is all part of the BPD trait of not having any real sense of who they are. How can they when their own view, or interpretation, of reality keeps shifting. Their mind is nomadic with no fixed abode, constantly seeking greener pastures. They have no idea of where they belong, only seeing what is currently within the horizon, even if tomorrow they may journey across it.