Do I exist in her mind?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I know she is aware I exist. I pay the bills and I am a convenient source of energy, but beyond that I don't think she realises that I am a human.

I've just been away for 3 days. I really enjoyed being apart from her. I decided to have no expectations positive or negative when I came home.  She opened the door like I was the dog outside for a pee. She didn't look at me.  I walked in. There was no conversation. That was that.

I'm busy with some really cool projects,  and I have three beautiful children. I will spend my time doing those things. I am creating a life beyond my Narcissistic Borderline spouse, to whom I am a convenience.

It.could have been worse. I have had rage before, when I've returned from business.

[Moselle]

I know she is aware I exist. I pay the bills and I am a convenient source of energy, but beyond that I don't think she realises that I am a human.

I've just been away for 3 days. I really enjoyed being apart from her. I decided to have no expectations positive or negative when I came home.  She opened the door like I was the dog outside for a pee. She didn't look at me.  I walked in. There was no conversation. That was that.

I'm busy with some really cool projects,  and I have three beautiful children. I will spend my time doing those things. I am creating a life beyond my Narcissistic Borderline spouse, to whom I am a convenience.

It.could have been worse. I have had rage before, when I've returned from business.

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[sweetheart]

Hello Moselle,

The belief that your wife does not think you are human must be very upsetting, that you question not existing in her awareness is really very sad to read.

What struck me about your post was that on your return neither of you acknowledged each other at the door.

I know I went through a stage of intense bitterness and resentment, thinking that what my h was doing was deliberately planned just to make my life awful. So sometimes I would ignore him, make curt provocative remarks or worst of all treat him with contempt. I was angry and hurting, but realised quickly that this way of responding just fed the negativity and hurt inside him and perpetuated the awfulness of both our lives.

I wonder if there is anything you could have done differently that might have created a way for your wife to really 'see' you on your return home, for you to announce your homecoming more positively. I wonder also if there is a way to enhance your existence within the context of your marriage so that you begin to feel more present in your relationship again.

[maxsterling]

It.could have been worse. I have had rage before, when I've returned from business.

Sad that we may live our lives like this, but I can relate.  There are times when I feel no warmth from her, yet feel happy to just have peace and quiet.  I remember something my sister in law once told me.  Her mom used to hit her, and one day her mom didn't hit her, and instead told her that she was not worth hitting.  She claimed that comment hurt worse than the physical abuse, because at least with being hit, she got some emotion from her mom (too bad it was anger).

[sweetheart]

Oh my that was really sad max, what struck me on reading it is that so often the pwBPD expects only the negative, the painful, the hurt from us, they anticipate that we will wound them. Sometimes because we are so blindsided by the emotional assault of this disorder it can be hard not to defend ourselves in a way that repeats the pain of past relationships. I know this was true for a while in my marriage.

Moselle I was also thinking that very often people with this disorder have a very poor sense of self and struggle to find meaning in their existence, it might be that your wife treats you as though you do not exist because she struggles to give meaning to her own existence.

[maxsterling]

Oh my that was really sad max, what struck me on reading it is that so often the pwBPD expects only the negative, the painful, the hurt from us, they anticipate that we will wound them.

I also wonder if that they also expect us to treat them badly as a sign we care about them.  That means, when we do nothing or show little reaction, they interpret that as we don't care - abandonment.  I think it drive my wife nuts that I don't react.  Just like my sister in law with her mom.  My wife grew up in a family that was constant conflict and constant criticism.   She was a cutter.  I'm told cutting is about a person wanting to feel something.  I wonder if her r/s are the same way - raised with such constant conflict, if she isn't feeling it now, she does something to create it.  Like cutting - she wants to feel something.  She raises her voice to try and get a response out of me.  I think she wants me to respond in anger because that is the way she wants to feel - like a bad person.  Just like her cutting - "I'm a horrible person and in emotional pain, and I want to feel physical pain".  So sad.

[Moselle]

Oh my that was really sad max, what struck me on reading it is that so often the pwBPD expects only the negative, the painful, the hurt from us, they anticipate that we will wound them.

I also wonder if that they also expect us to treat them badly as a sign we care about them.  That means, when we do nothing or show little reaction, they interpret that as we don't care - abandonment.  I think it drive my wife nuts that I don't react.  Just like my sister in law with her mom.  My wife grew up in a family that was constant conflict and constant criticism.   She was a cutter.  I'm told cutting is about a person wanting to feel something.  I wonder if her r/s are the same way - raised with such constant conflict, if she isn't feeling it now, she does something to create it.  Like cutting - she wants to feel something.  She raises her voice to try and get a response out of me.  I think she wants me to respond in anger because that is the way she wants to feel - like a bad person.  Just like her cutting - "I'm a horrible person and in emotional pain, and I want to feel physical pain".  So sad.

Oh dear. I reacted this morning. Her untrained dogs s%@t and puked all over the house during the night. There was no food, no washing powder, no milk, no bread,  no dishwasher cartridges. She has a full time maid, but still managed to leave the house in an absolute mess - how is that possible between the time the maid leaves at 5 pm and when I arrive home at 10 2

But there was a brand new digital printer sitting on the dining room table for her photography obsession.

Then she started disrespecting me in front of the children.

Buttons pushed -repeatedly.  Aaarggh.

She got her reaction :-(

Then she left. And she called from the car 30 minutes to apologise.

[sweetheart]

Moselle,

Sometimes Moselle it is impossible not to react and that is ok too, how are you now?

Your wife's internal chaos is externalised in the mess she leaves in her wake, my h does this, I have come to believe that he does not even see it unless of course it is my mess  For me sometimes everything a pwBPD says and does lets us no how bad it is to be them, and in turn they have to make us feel that bad too. I can hear this is causing you to feel really bad and being on the end of their chaos, abuse and disruption does feel truly awful. What support is there for you ?

Max my h is/was a cutter too and you're right if I am calm and quiet in my responses ultimately the pain is left in him and it's as though I haven't heard or seen him. He grew up with physical abuse and in a wholly invalidating family and this is what he expects from me when he is dysregulating. He doesn't get that from me even though it is what he sets up inside me but my it is hard sometimes.

No wonder so many times a relationship with someone with this disorder repeats the wounds of their past.

[Moselle]

Thanks Sweetheart,

It's easy to become isolated with this. Yes I'm choosing to allow it to make me feel bad at the moment. I recognize it's handing power over to someone who is mentally disordered.

I'm flying it alone at the moment, besides my good friends at bpdfamily of course :-)

[formflier]

 

Moselle,

Expect to be the leader... .lead by example.

If you do not demonstrate to her what you want... at the front door... .what is the likelihood she will figure it out on her own.?

Be the emotional leader... .example... in the r/s.  She may... .or may not... reciprocate...

[Moselle]

Good point. I was coming from the point of view that we are both leaders in the family.

It's probably naive to expect a person with a serious mental illness to lead a journey to health in any way.

After a discussion about feeling abandoned for the 3 days, she saw me not hugging her as "cold and callous".

Then if I do hug her she makes it feel as if she doesn't want affection, and certainly won't kiss.

I'm not sure how to get this right.  If I feel like hugging her I will. If I don't I won't. Sometimes I find it really hard to hug a person who behaves like this. I told her I love and choose to be with her, even though I don't like some of the things she says and does.

This was also accompanied by the usual fare of divorce threats and telling me how difficult I am to live with. I must have come a long way because this did not affect me. Not the way she wanted any way. I gave her a smile and realised she was talking about herself

[waverider]

Does she actively reject you if you make a point of approaching her. Or is she just as oblivious to you as she is oblivious to the mess she makes.

If someone lives on impulse and neediness there is a lot of instant gratification. If something is not on their impulse or "need" list it barely registers. Once they have sated a need or impulse, then anything thereafter is also shut out eg clearing up any mess caused.

Their mind is solely occupied by the current need or impulse/obsession

[Moselle]

Yes she actively rejects me.

That makes so much sense. I'm definitely not on her impulse/obsession list.

We have a mediator working with us now after 10 months of long distance separation (1000 miles). The plan was to live in separate dwellings and reintegrate slowly, but I agreed at her request to try living at home instead. She said it would be hard on the children to live separately again and to be honest,  after all the damage,  I want to be there full time for them.

Unfortunately she's taken that to mean she can continue the old behaviours and she's 'won' the battle. I'm maintaining my boundaries pretty well, but the battleground has shifted to intimacy. It's the last avenue of manipulation. It needs two to participate,  and she with holds. I can see for the first time in 14 years her terror around intimacy.  She opened up yesterday about her fear that I will leave again.  I reinforced that I have chosen to come back, because I love her, not because I need to.

[formflier]

 

My guess it that you will be a bit better off with a kind greeting... and a gentle touch on the shoulder... .

Than a full on "i love you... "... .and a really nice hug.

So... .come in door... ."hey... .that's a nice looking sweater... ."... .touch shoulder and keep on going.  Maybe graduate up to side hugs... .quick ones.

Move along is important... .because it leaves her to deal with uncomfortable feelings... .rather than give her the opportunity to fling some statement at you.

Thoughts?

Back to leadership:  Just go... .lead up the hill... .the key is to not look back... .just go towards healthy behavior... .

[Moselle]

This is the best leadership training I ever had. 

I say that tongue and cheek,  but if we can lead a pwBPD towards health we can lead anything!

I like the approach of a quick greeting and moving on. Its also a reminder for me to get on with my life. It's so easy to get caught in the delusion and the FOG.

My 13 year old is showing signs of following suit with her mum. Another leadership opportunity

[formflier]

This is the best leadership training I ever had. 

I say that tongue and cheek,  but if we can lead a pwBPD towards health we can lead anything!

I like the approach of a quick greeting and moving on. Its also a reminder for me to get on with my life. It's so easy to get caught in the delusion and the FOG.

My 13 year old is showing signs of following suit with her mum. Another leadership opportunity

And also realize that with the 13 year old... .the traits are not as ingrained.  I would be more direct.

The point of doing the quick greeting... .is to demonstrate correct behavior... .and... .to hopefully take some steam out of an argument... .or to clarify that the argument is fueled by BPD traits... and not legitimate r/s issues.

That is the tough thing... .to separate the two.  Because there are times I really need to apologize.  But... .if she says I NEVER give her a hug... .and I've offered a couple and she rejected... .I can be confident that it is a BPD trait fueled "blow"... .and I just need to get out of the way and let it blow itself out.

[waverider]

I like the approach of a quick greeting and moving on. Its also a reminder for me to get on with my life. It's so easy to get caught in the delusion and the FOG.

This is important as you are not left waiting on their response, even the fact that you are waiting for it can put pressure on them not to do it. Almost like its a challenge. Also it doesn't bug you as it doesn't occupy your mind.

[123Phoebe]

Keep in your mind that you absolutely DO exist!  And that you're choosing to be in this relationship.  Therefore, do not let the BPD behaviors drive your relationship (with your wife, with your children... ), somewhere you do not want it going.

[Moselle]

Formflier, how direct do you suggest I am with D13? I'm fairly blunt with all three children including D10 qnd D5, in front of W about the old dynamic and the new behaviours,  boundaries, speaking respectfully etc. I'M actually concerned that I'm laying it on a bit thick. If W disrespects me in front of them, I call it straight away,  won't tolerate it at all in any form. I also call it when she starts shouting at them. Interestingly she backs down now in both those cases, whereas that would have sent her into hysterics before the separation.  Unfortunately I know she does it when I'm not there, but they are very aware that it's unacceptable.

Waverider,  I did the quick greeting and move on bit today. Worked like a charm! She even coseyed up to me when I took everyone to the beach for icecreams this afternoon. I'll be careful to be busy and never waiting for a response. She's so keyed into my emotions. She instantly says "what's wrong?" If I go quiet. I'll try the short, positive interactions and move on.

Phoebe123 thanks for the reminder and encouragement!. I'm doing my best to heal on this one. I realise that there are childhood scars from a uBPD mom, that need some addressing and I get triggered by W's contempt and invalidation. This might be the toughest challenge for me. Existing in my own mind, let alone W's!

[formflier]

Formflier, how direct do you suggest I am with D13? 

Sounds like you are on right track.

Is there a family T involved?

someone that deals with the group dynamics of the entire group?