Sudden change in attitude & behaviours

[Awesome Jim]

I have remained friends with my ex gf because I was friends with her before we dated and it wasn't until we dated that I really saw the BPD behaviours and I think I still remain friends because I feel bad that she can't see that she's the cause of her own turmoil but that's really not healthy either. I really think I do it because I feel sorry for her. As rotten as she can be at times she also has very good qualities.

Right now I think she is angry with me because she's stopped calling and is very short with me when I do call and sounds all down and depressed. I think it's because she started treating me like a part time husband again, especially with helping her dad move his stuff out of the office he sold as he's retiring, and it also became very obvious recently she is dating someone else who kept calling her. She clearly knew it would bother me because she would always take these calls into another room or try to cover them up. So I finally told her it was weird for me to be around as her ex bf and that it wasn't fair of her to hide who she's with from this guy and that she should move on if that's what she wants and I need to as well. So we had a mild argument over it and she seemed fine for the next few weekends or whatever - even called one day after the argument and said we should talk more .

The last time I saw her she gave me a big hug and thanked me for helping her and her dad. She even called me later at work and later in the week but I missed her call and she missed mine.  So I called her after the next weekend and asked if she had a hat I thought I'd left at her place. She went off on me because she thought that was the only reason I called and when I asked why she was mad at me she said she wasn't - just upset over the recent suicide death of a co-worker. She had acted angry one night a few weeks early and I suspect it was with me but had also pawned it off at being upset with how slow the move was going.

Now she's stopped calling, stopped inviting me out, has short one word answers and text replies. It's ridiculous. I texted her last weekend and she invited me out for dinner but I wasn't about to drop everything and be a white knight (good grief) so asked if Sunday would be ok. She said she would call or text but never did. Yesterday I called to cheer her up and to do some Christmas shopping this weekend and she was the same - all down and mopey and claimed she didn't want me to stay over if I did come out cuz she didn't want to have to wash bed sheets (when she lies it's like a little kid lie that is incredibly transparent).  Anyway I am very close to packing it in and losing her as a friend because I am fed up with the horrible treatment but I suspect she is socially isolating herslef right now, as she often does when upset with the world, and I also found out this girl at the office I'm crazy about has split from her husband and I am tempted to act on her pretty obvious flirtations with me - great gal and I only have good intentions for an actual normal relationship. I just feel like I've denied myself true happiness and a normal healthy relationship for far too long out of what - obligation?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[Awesome Jim]

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can "talk her down" from this isolating behavior she seems to be exhibiting (I say seems because I am not seeing how she is acting with other family members etc. because I live far from her and she isn't exactly having me around right now)?

I want to just get out to her place and spend an afternoon with her.  I think the "normalcy" and having someone familiar around would be good for her.  I don't know if she's mad at me or truly just upset with everything right now (it may very well be true that her co-worker's suicide put her over the top).  It may also be true that she is mad at me for asking if she had my hat because she saw this as abandoning behavior on my part in lieu of my recent discussion with her and she may have also seen it as trivial in light of this sudden death.  Of course I had no idea of this when I called her but she does keep referring to the "hat incident" and seems completely and inappropriate upset about it.

[Infern0]

I have found that if they are annoyed at you and not talking about it that it's best to just leave them to it and wait until they stop disregulating.

It could be many reasons,  not to suggest anything but mine was being like this with me and when I really pushed her on it she said she was getting "feelings" for me again

leave her to it and ask the girl at work out for a drink.

[Grey Kitty]

Jim, I've read the stories of several members here who broke up, and tried to remain friends with their BPDex, and seen one common thread through them:

Their pwBPD still cannot handle intimacy in a normal, appropriate way with them after the r/s ends. The pwBPD still needs the push-pull games, or to paint the member black at times.

Just because you had a friendship without this sort of stuff before your r/s doesn't mean you can get back to it that way again.

Here's what you can do: Work lessons and apply the tools here on the staying board to improve your r/s with her. You will need them, even as a friend!

Accept that this is who she is, and how she will behave.

Accept that if she stays in touch, she will try to pull you into levels of intimacy that could legitimately make a new gf jealous.

Accept that she will also push you away for her own reasons that have nothing or very little to do with you, although they may be triggered by your actions. (For example, if you do go on a date with this girl from the office and she finds out... .)

BTW... .it sounds fun to flirt with this girl... .however the assessment that she's "healthy" would go down by at least one red flag   if she's ready to jump back into dating immediately after separating from her husband!

[bruised]

Anyway I am very close to packing it in and losing her as a friend because I am fed up with the horrible treatment

Jim,

Nobody should have to put up with horrible treatment from a friend. Friends should enrich our lives, not diminish them.

I just feel like I've denied myself true happiness and a normal healthy relationship for far too long out of what - obligation?

I agree with Grey Kitty. As long as you remain "friends" with your ex, it will be very difficult to have a healthy r/s with another woman. Her manipulation and jealousy games will make your life a misery.

[formflier]

 

If you do want to remain in contact... .I suggest sorting it out in your own mind that when she acts appropriately towards you... .you will spend time with her... and when she doesn't... you won't.

Don't complicate it or try to "convince" her to change her behavior.  If push pull stops working for her... .she may stop... .or at least try it a lot less.

[Grey Kitty]

I agree with Grey Kitty. As long as you remain "friends" with your ex, it will be very difficult to have a healthy r/s with another woman. Her manipulation and jealousy games will make your life a misery.

Yeah, that is a likely outcome. I do believe it is *POSSIBLE* be strong and keep your friendship in 'safe' territory... .with good boundaries, even though she's working at busting them. If you stay strong, she will have to do decide if it works for her or not. It probably won't be her normal pattern.

I do believe that the attempt is a valiant and good thing, even if the friendship doesn't work out.

[bruised]

I do believe it is *POSSIBLE* be strong and keep your friendship in 'safe' territory... .with good boundaries, even though she's working at busting them.

But who wants that kind of a friendship? If I have to work hard at maintaining boundaries with someone who is constantly trying to penetrate them, is that even a friendship?

These are the questions I'm mulling over right now.

[Awesome Jim]

I feel bad for her because she often can't see that her own behaviors lead to her ending up with no one talking to her.  I don't let that be an excuse for her behavior and abuses and I set boundaries on that stuff as often and as best I can.  In fact this whole thing is likely about me setting a boundary surrounding the fact she is clearly attempting to date people in order to seek whatever she is seeking (probably only sex).  I told her it's inappropriate and not fair to anyone for her and I to perpetuate a friendship if she is trying to have a romantic relationship with other men.  I also admitted I feel uncomfortable, and frankly emasculated, by it.  So I guess I have feelings for her still that I didn't think or admit I have.  

As far as us not being romantically involved anymore I guess she is afraid to be intimate with me because she freaked me out when we did date a long time ago by rushing in to quick and saying stuff about wanting kids very very early, and how she was glad all she got out of her ex husband was his sperm, and she doesn't use any birth control, and "so what if I did get pregnant" after say a month of seeing each other on weekends, and "don't worry, it's safe" assurances, and "if I did get pregnant I wouldn't tell you and then break things off with us and go off and have it on my own" (said during a fight about the question of unexpected pregnancy).  So she painted me black in terms of sex because of this and it was all my fault and I "must have something wrong with me" or I "must have gay tendencies" or "fill in the blank" is wrong with me but apparently I'm good enough to have around and use as a personal servant, babysitter/play date, dog walker, nth family member, and general all around companion/pretend husband.

So as you can see we got off on a very risky and scary start.  I thought the world of her too as a friend up until that point and then I was also falling in love with her and yet soo confused when I'd see and hear absolute cracker jack craziness out of her.  So we've had a push pull relationship for many years now.  She insists we are only friends but really treats me much more like a husband.  So I limit my time with her because the more time I spend with her the more she treats me like she owns me or is married to me. It's weird and I hate it sometimes but I only spend some weekends with her although sometimes it is many weekends in a row depending on the unremitting crisis in her life or her family's life.

I think this whole thing is because of the boundary I set about a month ago when I found out for sure that she was dating someone and that her sister that she barely speaks to knew about him and it was embarrassing to me on multiple levels.  Her son knows it bothers me because he asked right away if I was ok when this guy called while we were all in the car and her sister was teasing her about him.  She knows it would bother me because for months she has been taking calls and then going into another room so and she has done this before over the years so I knew it was a guy.  And after it's been obvious a guy has called her (like when we are in the car or at her house) she is all of a sudden sweet as pie because she knows she has crossed a boundary that I have set before.  Unfortunately I let the elephant in the room linger usually because her son is around and I don't want to get into personal stuff between us in the car.

After this event in the car when she asked what's wrong in a restaurant I said "if you're seeing someone then what the heck am I doing here (helping your family with this move"?  It's the same old song and dance - "my family loves you and my son needs you in his life and my dog loves you and my family invites you to things without me even knowing" - whatever any of that means.  We never have the conversation about what I mean to her or who I am to her.  When we fought about it the next day she said something about how our "friendship" has lasted longer than most marriages.  The fact she said it that way spoke volumes and really highlighted how messed up she is and how she seems to be living in some kind of fantasy world.

[bruised]

she is all of a sudden sweet as pie because she knows she has crossed a boundary that I have set before. 

Yep, I've experienced that. They must think we are idiots.

We never have the conversation about what I mean to her or who I am to her.  

You probably wouldn't like what she had to say if you ever did have that conversation Jim. She hooked you in with sex, then withdrew it. Now she gets all the ancillary benefits without having to put out. She's using you Jim. Mine used me as an emotional tampon. Do your self esteem a favor and walk away.

All the best.

[bruised]

and I also found out this girl at the office I'm crazy about has split from her husband and I am tempted to act on her pretty obvious flirtations with me - great gal and I only have good intentions for an actual normal relationship.

I would run with that Jim. I reckon it would do you the world of good. Have some fun, but be careful and watch out for red flags. If she's recently split she may just be looking to blow off a bit of steam. I guess we shouldn't assume they are all BPD! 

[Grey Kitty]

After this event in the car when she asked what's wrong in a restaurant I said "if you're seeing someone then what the heck am I doing here (helping your family with this move"?  It's the same old song and dance - "my family loves you and my son needs you in his life and my dog loves you and my family invites you to things without me even knowing" - whatever any of that means.  We never have the conversation about what I mean to her or who I am to her.  When we fought about it the next day she said something about how our "friendship" has lasted longer than most marriages.  The fact she said it that way spoke volumes and really highlighted how messed up she is and how she seems to be living in some kind of fantasy world.

This is what your 'friendship' looks like to her.

As I see it, you've got three choices:

1. Continue with it as it is.

2. Back waaaaaay off, so you don't feel used that way. Probably LC or NC

3. Enforce boundaries really well, so you do have a normal friendship with her... .one where you and she can both date, and you don't do "husband duties" for her while she has another guy in her life.

Option #3 will be difficult--she will fight you every step of the way. But it isn't impossible.

[123Phoebe]

After this event in the car when she asked what's wrong in a restaurant I said "if you're seeing someone then what the heck am I doing here (helping your family with this move"?  It's the same old song and dance - "my family loves you and my son needs you in his life and my dog loves you and my family invites you to things without me even knowing" - whatever any of that means.  We never have the conversation about what I mean to her or who I am to her.  When we fought about it the next day she said something about how our "friendship" has lasted longer than most marriages.  The fact she said it that way spoke volumes and really highlighted how messed up she is and how she seems to be living in some kind of fantasy world.

What you see as her "fantasy world", is her "reality".  Are the things she's saying true?

If she's seeing someone, then what the heck are you doing there?  She can't answer that question for you, only you can

I just feel like I've denied myself true happiness and a normal healthy relationship for far too long out of what - obligation?

Learning what FOG means really helped me to get clear on my own tendencies, Awesome Jim.  Fear, Obligation and Guilt are doozies to comes to grips with.

Sounds like you're on the right path... .

[Awesome Jim]

Thanks for all the input everyone.  It's been so long for me it's unfortunately not things I don't already know and/or have already experienced.  It is so good to hear it from others who have had similar experiences because it can be incredibly lonely since those who have never experiences people with this disorder cannot relate nor understand.  It always feels good to hear the words from others even if you know the horrible truth - even about myself.

I've tried to answer why I feel so obligated all the time when I know I shouldn't.  I sometimes feel that she takes advantage of my strength and I also wonder if the reason I let her is because my strength seems to have a purpose for once.  I often feel like I am too intense or too strong/passionate/independent for other people to deal with.  In this situation, as much as she complains about when I am independent (she spins it as selfish), or she makes me feel guilty for standing up to her (which she spins as my temper is dangerous and volatile), at the end of the day I think she has relied on my strength of character in terms of reliability and stability and maybe that gives me a sense of purpose instead of feeling like I am too independent for my own good like I do in other personal relationships.

Anyway I might just see if something goes somewhere with this lady at work, even though I am reluctant to date people I work with (I already have one ex wife that still has a job in the same company as myself).  But I am also looking forward to having the time and clear boundaries of being able to go out with whomever I want without guilt of having to not be up front about this ongoing relationship I have with my ex gf (god it sounds so warped every time I say it or write it - always makes me feel like a loser when I normally don't in any other facet of my life).

[Cat Familiar]

I've tried to answer why I feel so obligated all the time when I know I shouldn't.  I sometimes feel that she takes advantage of my strength and I also wonder if the reason I let her is because my strength seems to have a purpose for once.  I often feel like I am too intense or too strong/passionate/independent for other people to deal with.  In this situation, as much as she complains about when I am independent (she spins it as selfish), or she makes me feel guilty for standing up to her (which she spins as my temper is dangerous and volatile), at the end of the day I think she has relied on my strength of character in terms of reliability and stability and maybe that gives me a sense of purpose instead of feeling like I am too independent for my own good like I do in other personal relationships.

Hey Jim, you sound like a good guy who happens to be a rescuer. I'm the female version of that--and that's why I married two men with BPD. You see their potential and what wonderful people they could be if they'd only get out of their way... .and then you have a purpose.

Knowing what I know now, I'd say, find a nice normal woman who can really appreciate what you bring to the table and forget about the intoxicatingly passionate BPDs who are a world of trouble. You're free now. Be careful who you choose to bring in close.

[Awesome Jim]

Thanks Cat - you shared some good observation there.  I seem to only be that way with her.  I'm not normally that way with other women I think because I am normally dominant.  With her she has some incredible way of making me feel that she is smarter and superior to me - even though my conscious brain knows better.

[Awesome Jim]

So Thursday she called, after not calling me back from two weeks ago, to see if I want to come out this weekend. So I agreed but I'm coming back on Sunday some time because I have to travel for my job on Monday. She says she's feelin better so maybe it was just the accumulation of things and the suicide death of a coworker just put her over the top.

I've been worried about her so I just want to see that she's ok - puts my mind at ease.