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Author Topic: Does the push-pull ever get resolved?  (Read 540 times)
shatra
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« on: December 06, 2014, 12:07:31 PM »

Hi

  I know the push-pull is a central part of the disorder, and that the pwBP pushes us away when either--

They split us all black or

They fear we are going to leave them so they do it first or

We get too close and they fear the closeness

and pull us in when

They split us white or

They have had a break and want rapprochement, like a toddler seeking mom or

They had the break, feel abandoned and want to return

    Mine has done the above. I am upset about it, and wonder if there is hope he improves in this area. On my end, validating his feelings helps, but still, just "going along with" the push-pull or accepting him back after breaks, isn't that just enabling, and reinforcing him to continue to do it in the future?

  I know part of this may be unconscious, and wit was what he did even before he met me.  I can tolerate the lighter version of push-pull (closer vs. more distant behavior while we are together), but I am not sure about the push-pull that actually ends in breaks.  And I'm not sure if anything we do or they do will resolve this.

Shatra

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Wanna Move On
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2014, 03:22:03 PM »

From everything I've read and personally experienced, that push/pull NEVER ends. It has been there from the beginning, is both hard and softwired in, and there is NOTHING you can do to change either them or their behaviors.

And YES, enabling them DOES reinforce their patterns. It's all they know. And if you DO cease enabling them, they will paint you black and ultimately discard you. (Or make your life a living hell.)

It's a lose-lose situation for you: enable them, and they will continue as is; cease unabling them and it will all go to ___ -- while they continue as is.

It's very sad. Heads, they win; tails, you loose.
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formflier
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2014, 03:47:33 PM »

 Heads, they win; tails, you loose.

Hey... .I'm going to have to respectfully disagree... .There are other options and choices.

There are many that get stuck in the no win game... the key is to not play.

Don't "flip the coin"... .

Sort of a separate point here is valid... .enabling them is bad.  "Taking them back" ... .is not necessarily enabling.

Taking them back with a bunch of drama is usually enabling.

If you "take them back... "... or they come back... .and you "don't notice they are gone... ."... .that is usually best.

Fore instance... .my wife had moved out of the bedroom... .maybe for a couple days.  Then she moved back in ... .and made a big deal about asking if I was angry she moved out.

I honestly didn't know... .I was aware she had slept somewhere else... .but where she sleeps is her business... .

So... a after a couple times of this tactic of "moving out"... .and not getting "what she wanted"... .she went on to another tactic... .or she "self soothed" and figured it out.

Either way... .it was about her... .it was not about me.  

Last big rule... .don't worry much about things that aren't about you.

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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2014, 05:52:44 PM »

It is true... .the push-pull game works better for them if you play the game.

Freaking out and chasing them when they back off 'works' for them.

If you let them go away peacefully, and enjoy the solitude, it works much better for you!
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Wanna Move On
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2014, 11:07:17 PM »

Formflier, I do concede one point: yes, through punishment/reward and the subtle manupulation of pain/pleasure dynamics, we can modify their ACUTE behavior.

But LONG-TERM, we have ZERO ability to modify or mitigate their maladaptive, pain-creating, crazy-making behaviors and patterns.

And if WE stay in long enough, their continuous gaslighting, splitting, betrayals, push-pull, psychological and emotional fragilities, desire for control and vigilant spirit of reprisal will bleed US dry, suck the life out of US and completely break US!

(Or we can completely surrender our sense of self and become passive doormats.)

Hence, for US, it (BPD marriage) is a lose-lose game!

Sorry if I come across as a contrarian.
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waverider
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« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2014, 02:30:05 AM »

A pwBPDs thought process pretty much will keep working like this. The main difference is that you can stay out of it quite a bit better. As you stay out of it then the push/pull becomes less dramatic.

Thought process and behavioral patterns are not always reflective. Therapy to deal with BPD  teaches better ways to act, even if the instinctive thoughts remain the same.

As you learn to interact better then you will move towards this. Unlikely you will eliminate it, but you can make enough progress that it doesn't drive you nuts.

Much of a pwBPDs behavior is in fact colored by the reactions of those around them. They may be maladaptive interactions, but they are interactions all the same which takes more than one person.

In short you can make a difference, though it may take some time and patience
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mitti
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« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2014, 05:10:55 AM »

Thought process and behavioral patterns are not always reflective. Therapy to deal with BPD  teaches better ways to act, even if the instinctive thoughts remain the same.

I absolutely agree and I have noticed a significant change in my ex since we got back in touch after a break for 1,5 years. He has had T and has learnt to at least better understand a lot of his own behaviors. I can talk to him the way I do other people and he has had almost no reactive responses. He says he can feel the same but doesn't feel compelled to immediately act on that feeling.
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formflier
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« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2014, 06:48:16 AM »

But LONG-TERM, we have ZERO ability to modify or mitigate their maladaptive, pain-creating, crazy-making behaviors and patterns.

Simply not true... .

Their issues are relational (generally)... .if the other part of the r/s is/has changed... .their behaviors will change.

If the other part changes long term... .their change will be long term.

Now... .I concede the point that we can't change them in to "exactly" something else... .such as a picture of the "perfect" spouse... .or that we can't "make" them consistently do an exact behavior we want.

But... .back to the original point... .they can and will change... .if the other part of the r/s changes.

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waverider
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If YOU don't change, things will stay the same


« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2014, 07:04:43 AM »

Whatever happens in the long run, you will both be different people than when you originally started. You may or may not still be compatible.  Even with a full recovery relationships still breakdown. Even without full recovery relationships become worthy.

Live in the now and what you can do to improve for tommorrow. What happens in the long term is unknown, dont handicap it with assumptions that nothing can be achieved. You can only do your best and what will be, will be.
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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2014, 09:17:20 AM »

You can only do your best and what will be, will be.

And... Waverider... .let me spike your football here!

The point of BPD family... .is that we can help your best get better.

So... .your best effort will be more effective in a month... .and in a year... .and so on!

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Wanna Move On
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« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2014, 10:25:40 AM »

I apologize for the less than supportive responses. I forgot that this is the "Staying" board where people, for whatever reasons, are stuck in a BPD marriage that they cannot easily dissolve; that they do not have the hope of leaving.

:'(
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2014, 11:03:19 AM »

I apologize for the less than supportive responses. I forgot that this is the "Staying" board where people, for whatever reasons, are stuck in a BPD marriage that they cannot easily dissolve; that they do not have the hope of leaving.

That is true for some members, I'm sure.

I'm here because I choose to stay (at least for now), and am trying to make the best of it.

This attitude is much better for me than the one you describe. I remember when I did feel trapped. Those were dark days for me.

Moving right along... .even though this isn't my topic, apology accepted Smiling (click to insert in post)
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shatra
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« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2014, 01:37:15 PM »

Thanks for the replies.

Grey wrote--If you let them go away peacefully, and enjoy the solitude, it works much better for you!

and Waverider wrote They may be maladaptive interactions but they are interactions, which takes more than one person.

----Yes, Grey, I let him have his break in the past, contacted him at the end of the break, and didn't have too much discussion or drama as we reunited.  This time though, he said it's over (since I got angry at him) and then later that day said it would just be a temporary break, not a break up, I feel frightened, because I feel that conflicts will happen in any relationship and his reaction is to run and hide. I can tolerate a break, but don't want a future break-up, so I fear the day will come (maybe it has already) when it is the final break. So the push-pull makes me nervous and unhappy.

--Yes Wave I am part of the problem, and can be part of the solution. I provoked him by lashing out when angry last month, instead of validating. And I didn't acknowledge the break and am treating it like a break-up. So I feel upset and feel  like his abandonment issues triggered mine.

Shatra
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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2014, 01:48:26 PM »

 Perhaps with a commitment to therapy on the part of the BPD, things may improve - however, in the absence of therapy, the push-pull will reign and be the most significant part of your relationship - it will drive you crazy, as you either choose a lifetime of walking on eggshells, chasing, splitting, irrationality, feelings being the facts, etc... .or walk away, knowing you did care for this person, but they are not entitled nor worth every ounce of your heart and soul... .my friendship lasted 34 years, with me always conceding, walking on eggshells, understanding, cooperating, chasing... .and she ended it over a text refusing all calls... .when I ignored her and went NC she started trying the push-pull again. I am so much happier without her and her nonsense, that it was easy not to reply. It is a personal choice to choose sanity, or to choose a relationship with a mentally ill person who will make you think you are nuts, too. We are all here for you!
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shatra
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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2014, 01:56:27 PM »

Hi

Wanna Move On wrote---And if you DO cease enabling them, they will paint you black and ultimately discard you. (Or make your life a living hell.)

----Or, as some have written, if we stay, they might self-soothe, or we might choose a different response, and instead of them painting us black or discarding us, they sometimes stay (and continue the push-pull, which is what I feel anxious about).

Formflier wrote:

Therapy to deal with BPD  teaches better ways to act, even if the instinctive thoughts remain the same.As you learn to interact better then you will move towards this. Unlikely you will eliminate it, but you can make enough progress that it doesn't drive you nuts.Much of a pwBPDs behavior is in fact colored by the reactions of those around them.

---True. He isn't in therapy. My reactions do color his behavior. I would LIKE to interact better, it's just that when he suggests a break or break-up when I get angry or have a negative feeling about what he did, I feel very upset and feel unwanted.  Other than trying to not take it personally, I am not sure how else to interact when he suggests a break or break up.

Thanks

Shatra

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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2014, 02:47:30 PM »

---True. He isn't in therapy. My reactions do color his behavior. I would LIKE to interact better, it's just that when he suggests a break or break-up when I get angry or have a negative feeling about what he did, I feel very upset and feel unwanted.  Other than trying to not take it personally, I am not sure how else to interact when he suggests a break or break up.

Is there a way for the two of you to talk about the breaks when things are good? When you say a break, do you mean days, weeks, or months? Is there any way to come to an agreement as to what a break will look like? I know that several people recommend setting boundaries. Is this a boundary issue? Would it be possible to agree to a certain amount of time?

You said that he suggests a break when you get angry or have a negative response. Would you be able to keep it together long enough to say something like, "You are right. We should take a break so that I can get myself together. We can talk tomorrow (or whatever amount of time that the two of you think is reasonable.)"

Personally, I have a very difficult time dealing with somebody that is angry and defensive. One of the problems that I have had with my husband is that he gets very defensive. If I want to discuss something, he gets defensive. The more defensive he gets, the more angry I get and then we get in that push/pull cycle. Would it be possible for YOU to suggest a break when YOU start feeling angry?
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2014, 02:58:26 PM »

Why do so many people attempt to gaslight the victim (tbe non)?

Why should the non feel guilty for needing empathy and validation and emotional support from their Significant Other?

Why should the non be an eternal masochist?
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formflier
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« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2014, 03:35:23 PM »

Is there a way for the two of you to talk about the breaks when things are good? When you say a break, do you mean days, weeks, or months? 

I like what Vortex is suggesting here.  Or I think she is suggesting.

I might even add a suggestion that you con't call it a "break".

Just make plans to do something without your partner.  That way... .you'll have plenty to talk about next time you are together... .

If can be easy to loose yourself in a r/s with a pwBPD... .doing things by yourself is a good way to make sure that you have your own identity.

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waverider
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« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2014, 04:00:46 PM »

Why do so many people attempt to gaslight the victim (tbe non)?

We dont like to use the term gaslighting here. That is based on a film where a sane, but criminal mind, is trying to deliberately convince someone else they are insane for financial gain. With pwBPD it is more of an unbalanced mind attempting to impose their reality on someone else

Why should the non feel guilty for needing empathy and validation and emotional support from their Significant Other?

You don't need to feel guilty, it is more of an awareness or acceptance that the target of your needs is often incapable of providing. ie trying to teach a duck to bark>>you will only frustrate yourself and irritate the duck. Ultimately making things worse.

Why should the non be an eternal masochist?

They need not be with the use of boundaries, stop playing the victim (which is hard). Ultimately it is your choice not obligation. A masochist gives the sadist the power by submitting. They can also take it away again, hence they ultimately hold the power. The sadist needs a masochist. Masochist can withdraw anytime if they choose to do so. Own your choices.

Anger, frustration and all the other emotions that happen are real and acceptable, the trick is learning to channel them better, dont bottle them up.
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