How do you handle entitled demands by a BPD?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

The BPD mom is about to get the kids for their two weeks of Christmas break. She lives three states away and this will be the first time she's seen them since DH got residential custody six months ago. We sent her a couple of emails to set up a new meeting spot in accordance with the court order. We also asked (though she was under no obligation to tell us) who would be watching the kids while she was at work. We figured since the order left the GAL on to "monitor mother's parenting time" while the kids are in her state, it wasn't too outlandish to request a little information.

She wrote back to us twice totally skirting around the question of who will be watching the kids saying "the information hasn't changed". Well, the information she last gave us when she had the kids this summer was the name of an old man in his 70's who, according to the GAL testimony, sits in his car reading instead of being invthe house with the kids. The BPD also claimed to have no contact information for him, but gave us her house phone number saying he could be reached at that number when he's watching the kids anyway so that should be the only number we need. (How, when he's out in the car, and the kids tell us nobody but mommy is allowed to answer the house phone?)

Anyway, after skirting around giving us any kind of legit answer she is now demanding DH give her MY cell phone number and contact information for a neighbor she says watched the kids. (Actually, the neighbor has kids the same age who go to the same school so sometimes our kids go over to play.) So, since this part of dealing with her is new to us, how do we proceed?

1. Just not respond to demands for info she isn't legally entitled to. (My favorite.)

2. Tell her there is no provision that legally entitles her to the information she is seeking. (Seems to open a can of worms.)

3. Suck it up in the name of co-parenting and hope she doesn't start constantly and insanely calling my phone and the neighbor's phone when she's looking for the kids like she already does with the kid's phone, the house phone, and DH's phone.  (Least favorite.)

[Nope]

The BPD mom is about to get the kids for their two weeks of Christmas break. She lives three states away and this will be the first time she's seen them since DH got residential custody six months ago. We sent her a couple of emails to set up a new meeting spot in accordance with the court order. We also asked (though she was under no obligation to tell us) who would be watching the kids while she was at work. We figured since the order left the GAL on to "monitor mother's parenting time" while the kids are in her state, it wasn't too outlandish to request a little information.

She wrote back to us twice totally skirting around the question of who will be watching the kids saying "the information hasn't changed". Well, the information she last gave us when she had the kids this summer was the name of an old man in his 70's who, according to the GAL testimony, sits in his car reading instead of being invthe house with the kids. The BPD also claimed to have no contact information for him, but gave us her house phone number saying he could be reached at that number when he's watching the kids anyway so that should be the only number we need. (How, when he's out in the car, and the kids tell us nobody but mommy is allowed to answer the house phone?)

Anyway, after skirting around giving us any kind of legit answer she is now demanding DH give her MY cell phone number and contact information for a neighbor she says watched the kids. (Actually, the neighbor has kids the same age who go to the same school so sometimes our kids go over to play.) So, since this part of dealing with her is new to us, how do we proceed?

1. Just not respond to demands for info she isn't legally entitled to. (My favorite.)

2. Tell her there is no provision that legally entitles her to the information she is seeking. (Seems to open a can of worms.)

3. Suck it up in the name of co-parenting and hope she doesn't start constantly and insanely calling my phone and the neighbor's phone when she's looking for the kids like she already does with the kid's phone, the house phone, and DH's phone.  (Least favorite.)

[livednlearned]

When N/BPDx made demands like this, I always quoted back the exact language in the order. But since this is outside the scope of the order, what about contacting the GAL and asking for clarification. ":)ear GAL, our custody order mentions that you will continue to monitor mother's parenting time. We have some concerns about who will be taking care of the boys in the upcoming weeks while biomom is at work. Can we clarify and problem solve a good outcome so the boys are safe and we have emergency contact information?"

I know it costs money... .that's the downside. But so many of these orders are exasperatingly vague.

Don't even acknowledge the request for your cell number. It isn't relevant.    I'm with you on #1.

[ForeverDad]

Don't even acknowledge the request for your cell number. It isn't relevant.    I'm with you on #1.

Hey, if she can ignore queries and get away with it most of the time, then you can too.

And if it's because you're watching the kids, then she can call their dad and he can contact you regarding the information or request.

[Nope]

Thanks all!

When she had custody of the kids there was total silence except for the incredibly rare instances she needed something. No information was offered and requests for information was only met with vagueness, outright lies, roadblocks, and raging. Now the kids are with us but a court order says that we must keep her in the loop. It also never took away 50/50 decision making but since she's so far away she's in no position to offer alternatives. We are just really trying hard to find the balance between keeping her properly in the loop and giving her the control and negative engagement she so desperately craves. She keeps trying to make everything a problem. I guess the key is deciding whether or not it's our problem.

[Moselle]

My thoughts are that it is a red herring. She's trying to get you into the realm of her control/influence. It starts with your phone number, but she'll be wielding the attempted control in other ways too. Why give her what she wants?

[ForeverDad]

Now the kids are with us but a court order says that we must keep her in the loop.

That's typical, she still has her parental 'rights'.

It also never took away 50/50 decision making but since she's so far away she's in no position to offer alternatives.

Family court is given great latitude - judicial discretion - in making decisions.  But it can also be technicality-bound in some ways at the same time.  For example if dad didn't file asking for custody and get a Change of Circumstances, then it's possible the concept of making him the Legal Guardian wasn't even addressed.  (I became Legal Guardian over two years before I got majority time, it took a return to court for the GAL to accept the first fix wasn't enough.)

However, it would have probably been within the court's ability to assign dad, if not decision-making, then possibly tie-breaker status.  Perhaps the GAL can advocate that when problems arise in the future.

• Decision-making ... .Inform and then proceed.



• Tie-breaker ... .Ask first then proceed.

Or the court could eventually be asked to grant moving the case to your state.  But if you've got a good order finally that is unlikely to be overturned you may not want to risk a change of venue too soon.  Of course, I'm not a lawyer.

[livednlearned]

Another thought... .in terms of emergency contact. The boys have a cell phone? Can you ask them to text you at a certain point each day?

Or, is there anyone in the area that would mind checking in with the boys and then let you know they're ok?

Just wondering if there are solutions like this that will provide what you're looking for without making it seem like you're supervising biomom directly. Stuff you can do with the kids, just between you and them, or by calling on an adult in the area who would be willing to spot check.

[Nope]

Another thought... .in terms of emergency contact. The boys have a cell phone? Can you ask them to text you at a certain point each day?

Or, is there anyone in the area that would mind checking in with the boys and then let you know they're ok?

Just wondering if there are solutions like this that will provide what you're looking for without making it seem like you're supervising biomom directly. Stuff you can do with the kids, just between you and them, or by calling on an adult in the area who would be willing to spot check.

It's actually one boy and one girl for me. When they are at their mom's she takes complete control over the cell phone. Technically the order says DH can text with them up to a half hour each day. But it also says their mom can do that and the kids usually don't pay that much attention to the phone when they are here. Obviously this has led to many complaints from their mom. Particularly her losing it at the kids when they turn the cell phone off. But you can just imagine that since the phone was ever even once off when the kids were here that it will be off except for his three mandated phone calls per week while they are there.

The house is out in the middle of nowhere. No neighbors to speak of. We'll just have to trust that since they spent the last year or so living in that house and nothing bad has happened that things will be generally ok. The GAL is well aware of the situation but there is only so much she can do as long as nothing BPD mom does rises to the level of an immediate emergency motion to the court. Kids are SS10 and SD 11. They have a five year old half sister that'll be there most of the time as well.

They have to get through these two weeks and then they have to get through spring break. Then the only parenting time out there that the BPD can have is "by agreement of the parties". So the next time after spring break that we even have to send them out there is next Thanksgiving. 

[livednlearned]

It's amazing how hard even the simple stuff is with these custody cases. 

When S13 was 10 and going over to his dad's every other weekend, I started this thing where I had him think through different scenarios and what he would do. To make it more of a life skill (instead of making it about his dad's drinking), I would come up with scenarios at school, at my place, at his dad's.

Would something like that work with your kids? My son got into it for a while, but I had framed it in terms of how it's good to think ahead so that when something weird happens, he has thought through the contingencies. Unfortunately for us, one of the big risk scenarios we're helping to prepare them for is their own bio parent.

Another possibility, which might not work given their ages, is to tell them you want to put an emergency phone in their bag. I bought a pre-paid phone to communicate with my family and lawyer when I was preparing to leave -- I can't remember how much it cost me, but it was worth every penny at the time. But then you put the kids in the position of keeping a secret that could backfire if their mom ever found it.

[adventurer]

May be validating the invalid but another option would be to get a temporary google voice number and have that forwarded to your phone for the duration.

[Nope]

The kids will always at least have physical access to the house phone at their mom's place. It's more a question of how bad things have to be before they use it. I like the idea of working with them on scenarios so they know what do to if something goes wrong, either here or there, and there isn't a capable adult available to handle it.

[ForeverDad]

But when they're there, their mindset will change and they may not feel able to do much.  Still, prepare them with positive repetition and reinforcement and in time they'll be able to break the old patterns when back with mother.  It's a Work in Progress.

[PinkieV]

My SS14 never wants to talk about what might happen with uBPDmom, so we just remind him that he has his aunt and uncle's phone numbers, as well as a family friend's, should he need it.  He knows what we're saying.  BM takes his phone too, as we get answers to texts that are definitely not in his jargon.  She did give it back to him on Thanksgiving, though, so he could answer when we all texted him (DH, me, my two kids, and my daughter's boyfriend).  I'm sure she feels we're intruding on "her" time, but oh, well!

[bravhart1]

I think I also would advise talking to GAL.

Couple of things stood out that you said, about her asking for your neighbors phone number because the kids play over there. (Of course she will frame it as you leaving them in the care of strangers.)

When this came up for us, we naively gave name and phone number of that person who was our "back up sitter". She spent weeks putting that persons name on every form at school, medical, dental etc as someone who "May not" pick up HER child from school etc. then began her typical online harassment, stalking and slandering. Unfortunately this caused our friend to "unfriend" us as we put her in harms way by putting her in BPDm's orbit. To sum it up: be careful information is just a way to use things against you. Hate to sound so paranoid but these people are textbook if nothing else.

Also, why does she need your cell number after all this time? Especially odd request since kiddos are going to be in HER care, why does your cell help her? Has there been any occasion that having your cell would have been beneficial to kids? No? Then why now? I'm against giving BPDm any info she doesn't need, based on what she's done with the info she's gotten in the past.

If your boys are with her and there is another five year old, might be good to prepare them for not being put in a position to care for the five yr old. Could end badly for all. I won't go into my fears, I'm pretty tainted by our BPDm over here. But that would concern me a great deal.

Suffice to say, absolutely nothing they do would surprise me anymore.

[Nope]

Well, DH missed a call from the kid's cell. (Mamdated call.) He tried calling back but their cell was turned off. Then he tried calling the house phone number. And guess what? A Verizon message said the house phone number had been changed. So she lied when she said by email that the contact information for getting ahold of the person watching the kids hadn't changed.

We ended up texting her asking to speak to the kids and she had the kids call but only after "reminding" DH that there is a specific call time and he should have been available. (Actually, the kids call came in 45 minutes prior to the call time in the order, but there is absolutely no reasoning with this woman and being "right" would just get taken out on the kids who are stuck there right now.) DH had a pretty crappy five minute call. SS10 was pretty much his usual self but not too talkative. SD11 couldn't get him off the phone fast enough.

Obviously, once the kids get back we'll address the changed phone number issue in an email for documentation. It amazes me the way this woman has absolutely no concept of consequences. She gets zero parenting time in her state during the summer unless DH agrees to it. She's doing a great job of building his case to not agree to any.

[livednlearned]

The one thing that remained true throughout my custody battle is that if there was a way for N/BPDx to sabotage himself, he found it.