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Author Topic: Intentions, Validation, and Understanding  (Read 411 times)
vortex of confusion
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« on: December 09, 2014, 08:18:39 PM »

I would like some input about some things that somebody said to me regarding my situation with my husband. I shouldn't let it bother me but it is worth thinking about. At the very least, I would like some input to see if I am on the right track or if I am off the mark completely. I feel like I have come a long way. I was told that my problems are a result of me misreading my husband's behaviors and intentions.

I am NOT a mind reader. I am entitled to my feelings. The whole point of all the work that I am doing is to focus on me and my feelings rather than worrying so much about what my husband is or isn't doing. If he does something that is hurtful, I feel like I have a right to be hurt. I am trying to do a better job of speaking MY truth. I have spent too many years trying to read my husband's mind and blow off my own hurt feelings because he didn't mean it. Nobody intends to stub their toe, does that make it any less painful? Aside from not taking things personally, I am not sure how one should go about reading my husband's behaviors and intentions.

No matter what his behaviors or intentions are, some things hurt. In the past, I denied that I was hurt by things that he did. I am finding that I can validate the fact that he didn't mean to hurt me but I can also set a boundary and stop him when he tries to tell me why I shouldn't be hurt or why my feelings are wrong. I feel like I am walking a fine line. Sometimes I screw things up completely. Other times, I get things right. I am trying not to let the hurtful things that were said to me set me back. I want to try to focus on forward progress because, as long as I live in the same house as my husband and my children, I want to do everything I can to make it as pleasant as possible.

The other thing that was mentioned was that my failings will slow down his recovery. Yes, I can support him and validate him when possible but I am not responsible for his recovery. If his recovery slows down because of something that I have said or done, then that isn't true recovery. There have been times when he has asked me to tell him what to do. I don't want to do that. I have fallen into that trap before. I try to validate his confusion and uncertainty but I am trying to get away from walking on eggshells and worrying and thinking, "Oh no, I can't say or do that or it might interfere with his recovery." There was a period of time in the last year where it seemed like I couldn't say or do anything or he would lose his sobriety. He wouldn't say it directly but it was quite clear that if he lost his sobriety it was because I said something that was difficult for him to hear. If I needed to set physical boundaries with him and he got frustrated and acted out, then I felt like it was my fault for not taking care of some of his needs. I have to be really careful not to slip back into fretting over his recovery and worrying that I may do the wrong thing and set him back. Am I off in thinking this way?

It felt so unbelievably invalidating to have somebody tell me that I am not doing enough and that I am not trying hard enough to understand my husband. I have been working really hard to overcome feeling like I am not enough. I am trying so hard to focus on myself so to be told that some couples learn to understand each other only to discover that everything they ever needed was standing right next to them all along really bugged me.

I do NOT have the tools to understand my husband. I can listen, validate, and support but I can do that without understanding him. No matter how hard I try to understand him, there are some things that are beyond my comprehension. I can work towards accepting him without understanding him. I have tried to understand him for years but it has been futile. I will never understand why my husband has done some of the things that he has done.


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MissyM
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2014, 09:12:48 PM »

Hi, Vortex.  I have been off the boards a bit because of a problem I had to deal with regarding my home.  I don't know who told you that your failings will slow down his recovery but that is incorrect.  You are correct, twisting yourself around and expecting yourself to be perfect will only cause added stress for you and in turn for your BPDh.  It sounds to me like you are really getting in touch with yourself and your feelings.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

The pain of living with a BPD sex addict is immense.  Take time and care for yourself and your needs first.  There is no way to come together without that being done.  Learning to acknowledge our feelings and stand up for ourselves in an appropriate way (sometimes I have not been perfectly appropriate but learning a new skill takes practice).
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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2014, 09:59:50 PM »

I am NOT a mind reader. I am entitled to my feelings. The whole point of all the work that I am doing is to focus on me and my feelings rather than worrying so much about what my husband is or isn't doing. If he does something that is hurtful, I feel like I have a right to be hurt. I am trying to do a better job of speaking MY truth. I have spent too many years trying to read my husband's mind and blow off my own hurt feelings because he didn't mean it... .No matter what his behaviors or intentions are, some things hurt. In the past, I denied that I was hurt by things that he did. I am finding that I can validate the fact that he didn't mean to hurt me but I can also set a boundary and stop him when he tries to tell me why I shouldn't be hurt or why my feelings are wrong.

The other thing that was mentioned was that my failings will slow down his recovery. Yes, I can support him and validate him when possible but I am not responsible for his recovery. If his recovery slows down because of something that I have said or done, then that isn't true recovery. There have been times when he has asked me to tell him what to do. I don't want to do that. I have fallen into that trap before. I try to validate his confusion and uncertainty but I am trying to get away from walking on eggshells and worrying and thinking, "Oh no, I can't say or do that or it might interfere with his recovery." There was a period of time in the last year where it seemed like I couldn't say or do anything or he would lose his sobriety. He wouldn't say it directly but it was quite clear that if he lost his sobriety it was because I said something that was difficult for him to hear. If I needed to set physical boundaries with him and he got frustrated and acted out, then I felt like it was my fault for not taking care of some of his needs. I have to be really careful not to slip back into fretting over his recovery and worrying that I may do the wrong thing and set him back. Am I off in thinking this way?

Vortex, let me be really p!$$ed off on your behalf. This sounds like some arrogant self-righteous statement from somebody in a 12 step program. With apologies to many people who give so much of themselves so generously in these programs, there is a mentality in some that "we know the answers" which is just another form of shoulds, oughts and guilt.

The effect of this communication seems to me to be placing the burden of his recovery on you. That is so incredibly fu@&ed up I can hardly think straight! He, and only he is responsible for his recovery for he is the one who made the choices that led him to need to recover.

You're his wife, not his babysitter!
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
MissyM
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2014, 10:35:18 PM »

Excerpt
This sounds like some arrogant self-righteous statement from somebody in a 12 step program.

I cannot imagine getting this advice in a recovery program for codependency (which is what a spouse of an addict usually attends).  This sounds like some kind of advice from someone that is more concerned with her husband's well being and not hers.  Not someone I would take advice from.
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flowerpath
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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2014, 12:08:46 AM »

vortex, taking good care of your own heart, soul, and mind, and the well being of your children is enough responsibility for you.  

You’ve got a great toolkit here for helping improve the quality of life in your home, but you cannot engineer your husband’s recovery.   While you can use the tools that you are learning here and put helpful advice to work, he is the one who is responsible for making changes in his own behavior, not you.

You cannot read a person’s mind, but a person’s actions speak loud and clear.  The advice given to me here on this forum is to pay attention to the pwBPD’s actions because it is too easy to go wrong when trying to determine what the person’s intentions are.  

You have been through an awful lot of stuff with your husband’s behaviors, and how you feel is how you feel whether he agrees with it or understands it or not.  In trying not to let hurtful things set me back, what I had to do was accept the fact that the hurtful words and actions came from (and still come from) the depths of a mind that is mentally ill.  Who really knows what’s in there?      Even more perplexing is the thought of someone who doesn’t think straight and who's emotions are off-center telling you how you should feel!

I am finding that the best advice comes from this website, reputable authors, and therapists.  There ain’t NO ONE who I associate with who really knows about BPD.  

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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2014, 07:39:01 AM »

My first thought on reading this is that when you focus on grand over-reaching philosophical discussions of right, wrong, skillful behavior, etc. it is pretty easy to lose your way.

Here are some general (philosophical) values that came up in your description:



  • I am entitled to my feelings. (being authentic)


  • Support your husband (being generous and kind)


  • Validate your husband




There may be room to debate if these are good values... .but if you are that hypothetical rhetorical person who will debate that, I don't care--your values are too far from mine to make the debate interesting or productive to me!

I find that life gets much more interesting and messy down here on the ground, firmly in the trenches of reality and relationships involving myself and other imperfect people. That is because down here, you find that two of those good values are opposed to each other at some point.

There is a balance where validating your husband starts forcing you to be inauthentic and not acknowledge your own feelings of hurt and anger from his behavior.

Often there is overlap, and the best you can do is find some point where you don't thrash either value too badly.

Life is messy that way. You have to make tough choices. You may look back and see that there is a better balance point than the one you took then. Still, it wasn't the end of the world, and you learned more about which point in the middle feels 'right' to you than you knew before.

... .and this is why I find it both more interesting and more productive to look at specific choices and specific behavior than the grand overarching philosophical discussions. (And also why going too far into that sort of philosophical discussion will turn a person into an a$$hole. Which I've probably been guilty of myself once or twice!)
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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2014, 08:36:47 AM »

... .you find that two of those good values are opposed to each other at some point... .There is a balance where validating your husband starts forcing you to be inauthentic and not acknowledge your own feelings of hurt and anger from his behavior... .Often there is overlap, and the best you can do is find some point where you don't thrash either value too badly.

Life is messy that way. You have to make tough choices. You may look back and see that there is a better balance point than the one you took then. Still, it wasn't the end of the world, and you learned more about which point in the middle feels 'right' to you than you knew before.

Very well said, Grey Kitty! Yesterday I was just discussing with a friend with an alcoholic spouse about how we can't be fully authentic with our husbands and how sad that is. But it's certainly more effective to validate and not have a need to communicate our own feelings when they begin to dysregulate.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
MissyM
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« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2014, 08:47:11 AM »

Excerpt
Life is messy that way. You have to make tough choices. You may look back and see that there is a better balance point than the one you took then. Still, it wasn't the end of the world, and you learned more about which point in the middle feels 'right' to you than you knew before.

So true, I find that I go over board in the opposite direction a bit before I find balance.  Just the way it works.  Learning to be myself and authentic, no matter my dBPDh's reaction is very healing.  Do I get my feelings hurt, yes.  And even that is a lesson in how to stand up for myself and express my hurt appropriately.  I love Brenee Brown's work and it helps me see that being vulnerable is so very hard for me.  Something I am working on and it is messy.
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2014, 09:34:58 AM »

Thank you everyone for the input!

MissyM: Thank you for reminding me how difficult it is to live with sex addiction and other undiagnosed stuff.

CatFamiliar: "You're his wife not his babysitter." are just the words that I need to hear. I know that a lot of you have experienced invalidation from others. I am so used to people telling me to try harder and that my husband just needs me to take care of him that when I hear stuff like that I usually try even harder. The fact that I posted here instead of acting on it is a big step.

flowerpath: Thanks for the reminder about paying attention to actions rather than words. That has been a huge stumbling block for me. I have put so much emphasis on the words because the words confirmed what I wanted to see and hear. It was a whole lot easier to live in denial if I looked at the words that were said and turned a blind eye to the fact that his words do NOT match his actions. No matter how much I look at intention or whatever BS, some actions and behavior are not okay.

Grey Kitty: Thank you for the reminder to keep things real. I don't think that I had realized this before but your post really hit me. I have a tendency to be too philosophical. I have a tendency to get involved in the hypothetical rhetorical discussions that you mention. The values that you describe are very accurate and to the point. I was able to dupe myself and live in denial by focusing on the philosophical and theoretical without seeing that I wasn't even living my own values. Harumph. . .more stuff to think about!

Note to self: Stop living in my head!
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2014, 04:01:25 PM »

I'm reminded of the *BIG* fight my wife and I had regarding her cheating, and some associated issues.

We would fall into a philosophical argument about how my values differ from hers, or at least appear to... .each arguing for a different (but good) value, in a situation where they play against each other... .and just get more and more spooled up, and be ready to write each other off as horrible people. There just was NO way to resolve the argument when it was framed that way.

When we come back down to planet earth, we were able to find more compassion and common ground, and start repairing things.
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2014, 08:22:48 PM »

I'm reminded of the *BIG* fight my wife and I had regarding her cheating, and some associated issues.

We would fall into a philosophical argument about how my values differ from hers, or at least appear to... .each arguing for a different (but good) value, in a situation where they play against each other... .and just get more and more spooled up, and be ready to write each other off as horrible people. There just was NO way to resolve the argument when it was framed that way.

When we come back down to planet earth, we were able to find more compassion and common ground, and start repairing things.

We have the opposite problem. We can agree on things from a philosophical standpoint. The problem is the fact that both of us live out those values in very different ways. The fact that we agree on a philosophical level has clouded my judgment or ability to see things clearly. Instead of bringing things up, I tell myself, "Oh, he just didn't know or he didn't intend to do it, blah, blah, blah." I got to a point where I simply stopped bringing anything up because I knew that he would find a way to get me to back off or forget or make me feel bad for him.

There are times when I retreat into my own mind because I sometimes feel like I can't deal with stuff on a practical level. If I keep things abstract and on a philosophical level, then it becomes easier for me to live in denial or excuse his behavior. I feel like I am slowly coming out of that but it is difficult.
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MissyM
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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2014, 08:46:03 PM »

Excerpt
We can agree on things from a philosophical standpoint. The problem is the fact that both of us live out those values in very different ways. The fact that we agree on a philosophical level has clouded my judgment or ability to see things clearly. Instead of bringing things up, I tell myself, "Oh, he just didn't know or he didn't intend to do it, blah, blah, blah." I got to a point where I simply stopped bringing anything up because I knew that he would find a way to get me to back off or forget or make me feel bad for him.

Yes, that is how it was with my dBPDh and I.  He would agree and say that is how he sees things too but the actions didn't match.  Until the actions match, philosophy means nothing (in my book).  More and more his actions are matching his words.  Not always and still getting better.  We are both a work in progress.
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