Progress in therapy and dissociation

[takingandsending]

Hello. My wife has stuck with her EMDR therapist (yay!). Today, after describing a particularly disturbing dream, her T gave her an evaluation assessment for dissociation (yay again!). Her T is probably zeroing in on how often she dissociates in the face of upsetting emotions.

My wife wondered why she wasn't getting EMDR for her upset, and the T advised that her fear/upset was too large and EMDR would exacerbate that, so she reverts to traditional therapy (CBT). It was the first time that my wife started to hear that her "needing grounding", "being not in her body" is a disorder. I don't know why, but this was HUGE for me. I feel like I at least she has a glimpse of what's going on and can accept a little of it.

When the T asked her if there was anyone that she could visualize aiding her at times when she is dissociating out of fear, my wife replied "fairies, angels, buddhas, bodhisattvas". The T asked if there was anyone in human form, and she said no. The T asked if she could visualize her adult self helping her stuck child self, to which my wife said "No way, too triggering." Eventually, she came up with two people she could visualize helping her.

My question is: I have been down this particular rabbit hole many times with my wife. She lives in this magical world and is afraid to be in reality. How can I support her efforts towards recovery while staying out of her hurt child's world? I have met this child, and she is very dangerous, spiteful and harming. Truthfully, I was once frightened of this child in her, but now I find her rather pitiful yet also very difficult to accept her or to love her.

Any thoughts in the electronic ether? It's a definite trigger for me.

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[Grey Kitty]

How about staying out of the way of your wife's recovery process as a way to support her?

I'd especially suggest that for things you find triggering!

[takingandsending]

GK

That's what I have been doing for the past 4 months. I am okay to continue doing it. But the distance annoys her, and she makes it a point of contention, which keeps us both uncomfortable. Look, I am getting to be an old hand at not engaging, and using my boundaries to maintain my health and own healing trajectory. But every once in a while, I do see her hurt and pain, and it does move me. I just don't know how or if I want to try to get past that wounded child to let her know I see her.

She's been in pretty major dysregulation most of tonight, which I have navigated pretty cleanly. No counterpunches thrown, no damage taken in, little to no escalation. I recognize that the dissociation that resulted from the dream is still shaking up her world. It's hers to heal; I can't change it. I suppose I should just look inward at what I am feeling - probably that old co-dependent obligation kicking in.

[Grey Kitty]

Can you validate her process and progress without getting involved?

[vortex of confusion]

My question is: I have been down this particular rabbit hole many times with my wife. She lives in this magical world and is afraid to be in reality. How can I support her efforts towards recovery while staying out of her hurt child's world? I have met this child, and she is very dangerous, spiteful and harming. Truthfully, I was once frightened of this child in her, but now I find her rather pitiful yet also very difficult to accept her or to love her.

Any thoughts in the electronic ether? It's a definite trigger for me.

It is interesting to find this thread tonight. My husband had his appointment with his T today and he came home with some interesting observations. One is that he is still a child emotionally. The other is that he can't handle reality. She recommend that he read a book called "Integrity: The Courage to Meet the Demands of Reality". He is supposed to start reading it and working through it with her.

As for how to deal with her recovery and stay out of the hurt child area, I don't have any concrete suggestions. One of the things that I brought up with him was that I want to support him but I am not sure how. One of the biggest problems that I have with communicating with my husband is his defensiveness. I can say something mundane and he will take it as a personal attack and get defensive. I got lucky and was able to catch him in the right mood and told him that I was struggling with communicating with him. I am not trying to attack him but am trying to find ways to support him in his recovery. And I try to validate him by saying that I know how hard it is to try to overcome all of this. But, I also try to make sure that he knows that his recovery is his responsibility.

A lot of it is about trying to validate and pay attention and look for times when I can speak my truth. Sometimes, the effects of me speaking that truth are that I am going to trigger that inner hurt child in him. I can't continue to worry about that. I can try to avoid it but there are times when it is going to happen.

[takingandsending]

GK, VOC - Here is my speed bump. I can and do validate her process and progress she makes at therapy. She doesn't and I also don't do so well when it's just us without therapists mediating. There's that implicit safety one needs to be vulnerable or in relation together, and I am lacking it, as is she. Can I continue to be kind, caring, validate? Yes. But the empathy and deep validation that we all need and want ... .that's been elusive.

My issue with safety started long before I met my wife. I am doing my best to work through it. Living with a BPD spouse complicates it by exposing me to a lot of behaviors that challenge emotional safety, and, at the same time, it is the proving ground that I chose. I am beginning to clear another layer of FOG - my wife called my unwillingness to just believe in her no matter what incredibly selfish last weekend during MC. The T that I have been working with has been encouraging me to see self sacrificing and selfish as a spectrum; it's a trap that I fall into seeing anything less than self-sacrificing as selfish. I still have the flinch reaction when it comes to being called selfish. I have been spending my whole life trying to prove that I am not selfish, but I still am convinced that I am.

Trying to make my way through the weeds to see my own strength and beauty, weeds and all.

[vortex of confusion]

My issue with safety started long before I met my wife. I am doing my best to work through it. Living with a BPD spouse complicates it by exposing me to a lot of behaviors that challenge emotional safety, and, at the same time, it is the proving ground that I chose. I am beginning to clear another layer of FOG - my wife called my unwillingness to just believe in her no matter what incredibly selfish last weekend during MC. The T that I have been working with has been encouraging me to see self sacrificing and selfish as a spectrum; it's a trap that I fall into seeing anything less than self-sacrificing as selfish. I still have the flinch reaction when it comes to being called selfish. I have been spending my whole life trying to prove that I am not selfish, but I still am convinced that I am.

I completely understand what you are talking about. Up until very recently, I could not share anything with my husband without him getting defensive and turning into a butt. I have repressed so much stuff and kept so much stuff to myself it isn't even funny.

Whenever I tell him that I don't believe him or trust him, he pulls out "But this time is different. I swear to you that I am not lying." In the last couple of days, I have shared some really hard truths with him. I am not sure how he got to a point where he could hear some of this. More importantly, I am not sure what changed in me to give me the courage to share. Like you, I am very, very afraid of being seen as selfish. All I can tell you is that it is NOT selfish to want to protect yourself. If you are put in a position where you have to choose between yourself and another person, it is NOT selfish to choose the other person.

I have had to give myself a good talking to on more than one occasion because I have been so afraid of being selfish.

Sending you a great big hug!   None of this stuff is easy.

[Grey Kitty]

Can I continue to be kind, caring, validate? Yes. But the empathy and deep validation that we all need and want ... .that's been elusive.

Validation is tricky. If you are only 97% sincere when you do it, it blows up and ends up invalidating instead of being "pretty good."

So watch yourself closely, and make sure you are really in that good, secure, loving, concerned place when you try to validate. If you aren't 'quite' there, just back off, make sure you don't do something invalidating... .and save it for a time you are in that good place.

The T that I have been working with has been encouraging me to see self sacrificing and selfish as a spectrum; it's a trap that I fall into seeing anything less than self-sacrificing as selfish. I still have the flinch reaction when it comes to being called selfish. I have been spending my whole life trying to prove that I am not selfish, but I still am convinced that I am.

That isn't MY trap; I could expound in great detail on the subtleties here... .and it wouldn't help you at all.  

My suggestions to acknowledge two things:

1. It is a hot-button trigger area for you.

2. She KNOWS this at least subconsciously, and will home in on it again and again, because it WORKS when she does it.

Ultimately, I hope you will defuse your own trigger, but that will take a long time to unwind. Your T is working on it with you.

Today, try to be aware when you are triggered by it, and take an immediate time-out before you make things worse by REACTING to it.

[Cat Familiar]

How can I support her efforts towards recovery while staying out of her hurt child's world? I have met this child, and she is very dangerous, spiteful and harming. Truthfully, I was once frightened of this child in her, but now I find her rather pitiful yet also very difficult to accept her or to love her.

I totally relate to the "hurt child" and how difficult it is to deal with that part when it can flick from wounded to aggressive in the blink of an eye. In fact, I hate to say this, but I think my husband's sweet "hurt child" part was one of the aspects that drew me to him in the first place. I wanted to be his protector. (Gosh--more role reversal--oh well... .)

My husband gets really shaken by his dreams. Sometimes he will dream that I've been mean to him and then he will act as though I had actually behaved that way. Since I probably remember one dream every couple of months, it's really hard for me to understand, but it's a big deal to him.

One of the biggest problems that I have with communicating with my husband is his defensiveness. I can say something mundane and he will take it as a personal attack and get defensive. I got lucky and was able to catch him in the right mood and told him that I was struggling with communicating with him. I am not trying to attack him but am trying to find ways to support him in his recovery. And I try to validate him by saying that I know how hard it is to try to overcome all of this. But, I also try to make sure that he knows that his recovery is his responsibility.

A lot of it is about trying to validate and pay attention and look for times when I can speak my truth. Sometimes, the effects of me speaking that truth are that I am going to trigger that inner hurt child in him. I can't continue to worry about that. I can try to avoid it but there are times when it is going to happen.

I can totally relate to this. My husband thinks I'm constantly criticizing him. Last night he was complaining about how much the TV news was talking about the coming big storm (we're in California) and that it was no big deal compared to what he's experienced when living on the East Coast. He was angry and bitter about it--probably had too much to drink too. I didn't say anything and then he presumed I was being critical of him. (It was actually sort of funny--I'm glad I'm starting not to get drawn into his dramas or pity parties.)

Yes, the defensiveness can get triggered by such inconsequential stuff--it's hard to imagine... .I just think his internal state must be hellish to be on edge the way he is.

[Cat Familiar]

The T that I have been working with has been encouraging me to see self sacrificing and selfish as a spectrum; it's a trap that I fall into seeing anything less than self-sacrificing as selfish. I still have the flinch reaction when it comes to being called selfish. I have been spending my whole life trying to prove that I am not selfish, but I still am convinced that I am.

I completely understand this. My BPD mother constantly manipulated me by calling me selfish and I've spent my entire life trying to prove I'm not.

Lately though, I've had a breakthrough. Previously I had such a bad self-image that I felt embarrassed and ashamed and critical of myself on a nearly constant basis. Though individual therapy years ago, I learned to love myself, warts and all, but that fear of being selfish persisted.

Just yesterday, during my therapy session, I spoke of how my husband is always disappointed in his friends and acquaintances. He expects that they should make a bigger deal about him and they don't. I told her I went into this relationship ten years ago with my heart fully open and over time, with his alcohol abuse, I've shut down emotionally, bit by bit. And he's always thinking I'll leave him. I have no such intention, but I told her, I'm starting to think more like a narcissist: I'm in a secure financial situation, I enjoy my life, I'm sticking around in spite of his difficulties because it's a good gig for me. I'm learning not to be affected by his weird moods. Still I'm sad that this relationship is not what I hoped it could be, but I like what I'm getting out of it. So his fears of being used are creating just what he doesn't want and until now, I've never in my life been a "user". I don't know that I am now, but I'm open to exploring the possibility that I am.

[Cat Familiar]

Validation is tricky. If you are only 97% sincere when you do it, it blows up and ends up invalidating instead of being "pretty good."

So watch yourself closely, and make sure you are really in that good, secure, loving, concerned place when you try to validate. If you aren't 'quite' there, just back off, make sure you don't do something invalidating... .and save it for a time you are in that good place.

This is such good advice. I can validate my friends so easily and be enthusiastic and supportive, but the weird moods my husband comes up with--I mentioned him being really angry about how the news coverers the weather in another thread--and politics--he lives in a world of fury about the way things should be--if I don't say anything, he gets mad, if I do say something where he doesn't think I'm in full agreement with his position--he gets mad. What a bizarre world he inhabits--and how crummy he must feel inside!

[vortex of confusion]

Validation is tricky. If you are only 97% sincere when you do it, it blows up and ends up invalidating instead of being "pretty good."

So watch yourself closely, and make sure you are really in that good, secure, loving, concerned place when you try to validate. If you aren't 'quite' there, just back off, make sure you don't do something invalidating... .and save it for a time you are in that good place.

This is such good advice. I can validate my friends so easily and be enthusiastic and supportive, but the weird moods my husband comes up with--

For me, I have a difficult time validating him for doing things that normal adults do on a daily basis. Sometimes, if I can't validate, I try to ask him questions and try not to invalidate. I can sincerely ask questions and that helps because it allows him to talk about himself and it gives me more insight into what he is thinking or feeling in any given moment.

I also wanted to add another comment about struggling with feeling selfish. One of the things that has helped me realize that I am not a selfish person is to write down the things that I have done for my spouse and the ways that I have taken up the slack at home to give him the space to do what he needs to do. When I write it down in a journal or share bits and pieces of it here or in other places, it doesn't seem selfish. When I read about the things that I have done as an observer, I am completely amazed that I thought I was selfish. When I read some of the stuff that I have written, I realize that I have taken the caretaker role to the point of absurdity because I was trying not to be selfish or self centered.

[Grey Kitty]

For me, I have a difficult time validating him for doing things that normal adults do on a daily basis.

That isn't validation.

That is praising him. Which is a form of judgment. Which is invalidating.

Validation is showing him that you hear what he is saying, or understand what he is feeling.

If he is proud of his 'accomplishment' you could validate that feeling.

Or if he is ashamed of how difficult it was for him to do something simple, you could validate that too. (Doesn't sound like he's that self-aware!)

[vortex of confusion]

Validation is showing him that you hear what he is saying, or understand what he is feeling.

I am talking about validation with regards to this. I have a very difficult time listening to him when he is going on about doing things that normal adults do. And I don't understand what he is feeling. The actual validation is what is difficult. I have a difficult time listening to a grown man be proud of himself for remembering to do something that I consider very basic. Some of the things that he gets excited over and wants to go on and on about are the equivalent of an adult that remembered to wipe his own butt. I know that is not a nice thing to say but that is how I feel at times. When I am in that place, I cannot validate.

We have moved beyond the praise thing. I tell him thank you when he goes on about something that he has done around the house. I have worked hard to set a boundary around NOT praising him. To me, praise is invalidating but my husband craves it so it does make things difficult at times.

Edited to add: I just reread what I said and I can see where I wasn't very clear. My husband has this habit of analyzing everything. If he does something, he has to talk about. I was referring to validating him when he talks about the things that he does. I wasn't talking about validating what he does. I was talking about validating the feelings that he has about what he does. I hope that makes it a little more clear.

[Grey Kitty]

I have a very difficult time listening to him when he is going on about doing things that normal adults do. And I don't understand what he is feeling. The actual validation is what is difficult. I have a difficult time listening to a grown man be proud of himself for remembering to do something that I consider very basic. Some of the things that he gets excited over and wants to go on and on about are the equivalent of an adult that remembered to wipe his own butt. I know that is not a nice thing to say but that is how I feel at times. When I am in that place, I cannot validate.

BINGO!

Sometimes you just don't have the f***ing patience to care about his feelings.  

That's a bad time to try validation!

Use all your strength to not tell him you you REALLY feel!

[Cat Familiar]

Sometimes you just don't have the f***ing patience to care about his feelings.  

That's a bad time to try validation!

Use all your strength to not tell him you you REALLY feel!

I love it! I'm finding a new reserve of strength and patience by accepting that I can be impatient, unkind, snarky, selfish, and a jerk in general, although I don't mean to be, but it happens--and still love myself.

I've seen a theme in these threads that so many of us were trained by our family of origin to be good little boys and girls, always looking out for others' feelings--the perfect prey for BPDs who lure us into their trap with incredibly hot sex, only to find ourselves wrapped up in the sticky spider's nest of mental illness after the newness wears off.

[takingandsending]

Validation is tricky. If you are only 97% sincere when you do it, it blows up and ends up invalidating instead of being "pretty good."

So watch yourself closely, and make sure you are really in that good, secure, loving, concerned place when you try to validate. If you aren't 'quite' there, just back off, make sure you don't do something invalidating... .and save it for a time you are in that good place.

GK - I mostly agree with what you are saying here. But I find that less secure, less loving validation still helps stem the budding rage in my wife, which has positive results for me and for our family in general. Isn't some modicum of validation better than just going to boundary?

Put another way, I think that the time I would need to get to that secure, loving, concerned place is greater than my wife can tolerate (due to aforementioned safety issues), even if I promise to return. Sometimes, I feel like I am just "He who learns to run away, lives to engage (more completely) another day."

I guess the real heart of it is that I don't compassionately validate my own feelings and experiences enough to be able to extend the genuine compassion and love that my wife wants. That isn't her doing. It's my own bad habits and behavior. I keep hitting this wall of "Go no farther. You've already done too much." I have to learn to stop overextending myself, overreaching so far that I lose my balance.

Cat Familiar - you stated that very well!

I've seen a theme in these threads that so many of us were trained by our family of origin to be good little boys and girls, always looking out for others' feelings--the perfect prey for BPDs who lure us into their trap with incredibly hot sex, only to find ourselves wrapped up in the sticky spider's nest of mental illness after the newness wears off.

[vortex of confusion]

GK - I mostly agree with what you are saying here. But I find that less secure, less loving validation still helps stem the budding rage in my wife, which has positive results for me and for our family in general. Isn't some modicum of validation better than just going to boundary?

I am not sure how to express this. I know what you are getting at. The problem with the less loving validation is that it might work to some degree but it still leaves me feeling a bit, I don't know, shallow or stretched. Instead of focusing on how your wife feels about it, ask yourself how YOU feel about it. It is still all about her. I find that with my spouse I sometimes need to go to the boundary because he will get validation hungry. I am not sure how to explain it but it is the whole thing where if I give him a little, he is going to want more and more and more. If I am not careful, I will slip back into giving him validation, praise, and whatever else he wants so that I don't have to put up with his rage, his grumpiness, or whatever childish reaction he may have. In the short term, the validation may ease this individual situation but it will do nothing to get to some kind of long term improvement.

I guess the real heart of it is that I don't compassionately validate my own feelings and experiences enough to be able to extend the genuine compassion and love that my wife wants. That isn't her doing. It's my own bad habits and behavior. I keep hitting this wall of "Go no farther. You've already done too much." I have to learn to stop overextending myself, overreaching so far that I lose my balance.

Before you can validate anybody else, you must first find a way to validate your own feelings. There are times when I feel like I can't validate his feelings without invalidating my own. I know that isn't the case. Both of our feelings can exist without either one being invalid. However, I have been trying to focus on finding ways of being more compassionate with myself. I am trying to step away from worrying about my husband's recovery. Yes, it makes some things very, very uncomfortable.

[Grey Kitty]

GK - I mostly agree with what you are saying here. But I find that less secure, less loving validation still helps stem the budding rage in my wife, which has positive results for me and for our family in general. Isn't some modicum of validation better than just going to boundary?

It depends how your validation is "less loving." I've found that one little tiny hint of INvalidation is enough to taint a pot of validation, with the result being the same as it would have been if you hadn't even validated.

I'd say that if you can avoid all invalidation in both words and non-verbal cues, then a little validation should be much better than no validation.

VOC's level of (legitimate) frustration with her husband is the kind of thing that makes it nearly impossible to avoid at least an invalidating look or tone, if not an outright snarky comment.

I love it! I'm finding a new reserve of strength and patience by accepting that I can be impatient, unkind, snarky, selfish, and a jerk in general, although I don't mean to be, but it happens--and still love myself.

Exactly. There just ARE times like that. Love and accept yourself that way.

Try to avoid expressing this stuff directly to the person in your life who evokes that mood in you. It will reduce the chaos and drama in your world... .'tho if you blow it occasionally, you've got the skills to put things back together.

And feel free to come here and post all those snarky unkind selfish jerky things! I guarantee somebody here will laugh!

[mstnghu]

Sometimes you just don't have the f***ing patience to care about his feelings.  

That's a bad time to try validation!

Use all your strength to not tell him you you REALLY feel!

I love it! I'm finding a new reserve of strength and patience by accepting that I can be impatient, unkind, snarky, selfish, and a jerk in general, although I don't mean to be, but it happens--and still love myself.

I've seen a theme in these threads that so many of us were trained by our family of origin to be good little boys and girls, always looking out for others' feelings--the perfect prey for BPDs who lure us into their trap with incredibly hot sex, only to find ourselves wrapped up in the sticky spider's nest of mental illness after the newness wears off.

This is a very good point! I always try to "do the right thing" when it comes to my wife. That means that even though she's being totally unreasonable and acting ridiculous, I later feel bad for lashing out at her. There have been countless times where my wife has been completely out of line in how she interacts with me... .yet somehow I always wake up feeling bad the next day about how I reacted to her.

The reality is, I'm a decent person who's trying to do the right thing... .and then I end up feeling guilty day in and day out even when I've done absolutely nothing wrong.