communication issues

[mr-macgyver]

Hi,

So I have a similar story to most so wont go into detail unless people want me to. I have been seeing a girl who is diagnosed with BPD and is in dbt theropy. She says we arent in a relationship but good friends but we kiss and fool around go on dates etc. So as far as im concerned we are, everytime she has said she wants to call it a relationship she freaks out and tells me she cant the next morning.

Things were great until she told me she had BPD, she told me and then said look it up on the net and let me know if you still want me, I had a sleepless night researching so I could give her an answer, which I said ok, im still in. She replied saying she needed to think, i stupidly went too strong expressing my feelings which just pushed her away, she said she couldnt talk to me. I knew her mum and spoke to her... .big mistake... .I got a load of trouble for that... .she said I was wrong which I understand and that we were over and so was our friendship... .up until this point ee talked all day everyday.

A week later I got a message saying she wasnt mad anymore and wanted dinner. Which we did and she kissed me again and I thought great but the communication since is poor. Sometimes she doesnt reply to questions.

So a few weeks ago I asked if she was upset with me as she hadnt replied... .she replied saying she talks to who she needs too. I found that rude but ok. So I kept communication to a minimum... .but had to speak to her at Christmas Eve because we had plans, she had to change them... .ok the excuse wasnt great but ok I get it... .we exchanged messages I asked a question no reply... .so I waited I did message or speak since to give space, today I messaged asking if she could speak to me now... .she said it was my assumption she didnt want to talk... .even though the last message was a question... .fair enough im not going to argue im not that bothered if we move forward, for all I know she found it hard I didnt message and maybe though I was upset about the change in plans.

She said we can meet at the weekend as she has a busy week. So sent another message earlier just a nice question being friendly, i know shes seen it, but no reply again... .is there anything I can do, i told her earlier and on a previous occasion I hate not talking. I understand sometimes not wanting to talk but I would reply saying I was busy chat later etc. We used to talk all the time so I dont understand.

Part of me thinks we are closer now and maybe that is the case, before I knew nothing, now I know about the BPD, and she tells me when she is having a bad time coping with theropy topics and has talked about the abuse as a child and  family issues, and suicide attempts... .I know she hides this from others. She works shifts and she doesnt like to talk to me during her shifts I thought it was because she gets really tired especially once I saw her directly after a shift, now I wonder if it is because she lives two lives the one no one knows everything and the real one, is she not talking to me because im now in the other life world, the one she cant hide in.

I know when she is in a bad place she goes into herself and wontvtalk to anyone, she told me that. Its just her comment the other day saying she talks to who she needs to has got me wondering. I would just like areply to messages even if its I cant right now... .am I asking a lot?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Rapt Reader]

Hello, mr-mcgyver & 

I'm very sorry for all of the confusion and trauma you are going through with your girlfriend; you are right: most of the posters on this Board have a similar story. It does cause pain and frustration when we don't understand how our loved one with BPD's mind works, or how to deal with them in a way that can make things better. You say that she told you she has BPD? Was she diagnosed by a Professional? Has she ever been in Therapy? Is she in Therapy now?

One of the things that could help you with all of this turmoil is to check out every single link to the right-hand side of this page, starting at the top and working your way down... .Because Before you can make anything better, you must stop making it worse. The Lessons will help you understand how your girlfriend's mind works, and the communication tools and techniques that can help you deal with her better. Have you had the chance to check any of those links out yet? I do highly recommend it... .

Wanting a reply to your messages and calls isn't asking too much in a relationship; but not knowing what is going on in her mind right now, I can't tell you why she is not responding to you... .Maybe now, when you are not in much communication with her, would be a good time to take a breath and read all you can on this site to help you. Please tell us more of your situation, and let us know what you think of the information I gave you a link to, and anything else you find on this site. We'd like to help, mr-macgyver   

[mr-macgyver]

Hi Thanks for the reply.

Yes she has been professionaly diagnosed and is in DBT Theropy she is still going, she did say if things kept going forward with us then I would have to go as well at some point so her theropist could explain stuff to me - I said that was fine.

Thanks for the links I will have a good read through.

Well I have kind of made things worse... .well for our relationship anyway... .So I sent her a message saying that I wanted to explain more how I had felt recently about her lack of communitcation... .I said that I found it rude she hadn't replied and that I knew she didn't like it if i was even just slow replying to her and we needed to have a rule that if one of us sends a message then the other replies even if it is just i'm busy, or can't talk right now and then follow it up later.

I also mentioned another comment she made and said that, it hurt me which is why I felt she was ignoring me.

I then ended saying, If you still have feelings for me then I will be here for you, remember I love you and care about you, I'm not going to leave you, I just need to know you care about me and to have some communication.

She replied... ."Sorry I don't have feelings for you."

I replied "OK"

Thats all that has been said now.

I don't know if I should wish her "Happy new year" or not now, I mean she was angry I didn't contact her over christmas which is what I thought she wanted, i got told off for making assumptions.

I mean we have broken up loads of times, I have been told she wants nothing to do with me, we can't even be friends, then a week later she is saying she isn't mad and wants dinner

i just don't know, how do I know a real breakup to one where she is just angry at me? I mean why be angry I didn't contact her over christmas if she wasn't interested anymore? Is this just more punishment, for telling her I wanted a rule about communication? She knows our relationship means a lot to me.

i don't know if I should touch base tonight with "happy new years" or wait a week and then drop a message asking if she still felt that way?

Thanks again for the links I will read them, I just thought I would update you :-) Thanks again :-)

[mr-macgyver]

I don't know if this makes a difference and could explain things however, I am aware that her therapist also told her that the drugs she was on weren't ideal and she should change them, she was spacing out a lot in therapy which I think was one of the reasons the therapist suggested the change. I know she had an appointment to get them changed, and actually went to see someone recommended by the therapist so they could communicate directly about the effects of the meds... .or something like that... .I just listen when she talks about this stuff, asking questions or asking to explain more isn't a good move! That was actually the last time we communicated properly, I send a text after her appointment saying I hope it went ok... as I knew she was nervous about this... .It was the lead up to this week that she had mentioned feeling very emotional and told me about her past suicide attempts. I occasionally see her mum through a club we both attend and she told me she was worried about her daughter, at the time. I also know that she is covering the trauma part of her life in theropy which is very hard for her... FYI I don't know what is being said in her sessions she doesn't open up that much but she just gives enough to explain sometimes. So I know she is going through a tough time, so I am thinking it's more that and her comment about her feelings towards me are a load of rubbish, and just used to get rid of me while she deals with other stuff, sound like a good guess?.

[formflier]

 

A very general recommendation here... .

You've noticed the things that the seems to "push back on"... .like when you try to ask about feelings... .or status of the r/s.  For now... .probably better to hold off on doing that kind of stuff... .and let her therapy work.

And... .let you gain some knowledge.  Please... .dig into the lessons.

Please keep "doing" the r/s... .(relationship)... .just don't push her to acknowledge it.

Does that make sense?  Do you think that will work or be ok for you for a few months?

[waverider]

A few things to keep in mind.

When she says something that is what she means and feels at that moment. It may not be expressed very well, even seem weighted. It is very likely that it may have no value yesterday or tomorrow. As a result dont hang onto individual things she may say as though they are a considered opinion and set in concrete.

Do not get involved too much in over explaining or justifying details on specific issues or comments made. That just keeps them on table longer than need be.

Do not try to over analyse or be their therapist, she doesn't want to be your patient, it will sound patronizing if you make too big a show of being understanding or accommodating. They want you to treat them as though they are normal not a disabled person, even though they may test you, even acting needy at times.

Many of the things they say are like thinking aloud, much the same as you have fleeting thoughts. You wouldn't say things until it is a considered opinion,. They have no such reservation, they jump to answers before full consideration.

Stay yourself and try not to be reactive by basing your actions and words and what she may have said or done.

[formflier]

 

Waverider makes a huge point... .about not trying to be a therapist.

I think this is doubly hard for guys... because we tend to like to "fix" things... .figure it out.

Many times when a pwBPD is having an episode they don't want to be fixed... .they just kinda want to know their feelings are "real"... .that they are "valid".

When you read the lessons... and other things on this board please pay attention to the difference in "validating" a feeling... .and agreeing or disagreeing with a "allegation" that has been made.

Validating that your partner has a troubling feeling is ok.

Agreeing with your partner that they have a troubling feeling because  you... ."blah, blah blah... " (insert random accusation) is bad... .(unless you really did it... .)... .at which point you should ask forgiveness for your actions.

[mr-macgyver]

Hi,

Thanks for all the feedback.

I decided to send a message lastnight wishing her a happy new year, i put a smiley face and some kisses on it as well. Thats what I would normally do so thought after the other day it does show im open to communication and not upset over her comment but it doesnt require any sort of reply.

Im going to leave things for the time being and give her some space, maybe that will help her come round maybe in a week ill drop a message and see if she wants dinner, if she hasnt contacted me before then.  ive got things to do to keep me busy this week anyway, i also joined the gym during our last break up,  that is now my way to have me time, i leave my phone have no distractions and its my time to myself. It also served another purpose when we met after that breakup she noticed the change in me physically and said she fancied me even more goes to show how working on ourselves not only helps us but has other benefits :-)

The thing I find about silent treatment is that having someone to talk to is my favorite part of a relationship, she was always so open before and we talked so much,  not having her to talk to really gets to me. Ive got my mates but its not the same, boys chat isnt the same as I have with her, in fact the conversations I had with her were better than other girls I have dated.

Really hope she comes round soon, i miss her loads.

Its hard not to show understanding, but i get what you are saying, im a very careing person and want her to know I care, maybe that needs to be more from actions and time building trust than words.

I have been reading other peoples posts and will also go through the lessons.

Thanks again, this forum is amazing.

[waverider]

They may seem hell bent on destroying 'normality', but inside they crave it.

I dont know if the phrase is used outside Aus, but it is similar to the "tall poppy syndrome"~tearing down those who have what they would like but can't achieve

[mr-macgyver]

So contacted her today... .

Just saying I wanted to put things right, could we meet up,no reply :-(

So messaged again when she was onkine asking her to talk to me, she replied saying she had no feelings for me so why should she talk to me. Couldnt be friends on my terms, i said I hadnt set terms, she said how I said I loved her, toldme to back off, then had ago about me making assumptions (when I gave her space thinking that is what she wanted when she didnt reply) i said I apologised for that. She said its the continuous cycle of assumptions and apologies, to be honest I hadnt noticed one, she just kept firing off saying she didnt want to talk and to leave her be. I replied saying ok, if u want feel free to get in touch.

I felt just anger coming through just how dare I contact her asking her to talk.

To my mind you dont get angry with someone you dont care about,you just dismiss or ignore, or is that wishful thinking?

Im still reading the lessons, im finding it hard to go through, i have moments i just think stuff her, moments i remember i have to get on with my work and life and cant spend all day reading about BPD, then times I know I have to get a better understanding to have a future, its tough when you dont know if there is one.

Do I just give space? Or do I keep trying? Part of me thinks I should leave her to sort herself, another part thinks I should say something along the lines of understanding she feels there is a cycle,i dont want her to feel like that and for us to move forward... .or ideas welcome

[waverider]

To my mind you dont get angry with someone you dont care about,you just dismiss or ignore, or is that wishful thinking?

Your mind is not like her mind, it is a mindset you have to get out of.

pwBPD struggle with the middle ground. You are either in, or you are out. The only other alternative is to be off the radar altogether

[mr-macgyver]

Well, I got her to agree to going for dinner the other day, I asked her and her reply almost seemed like she wasn't bothered to be going but when we met she had gone to a lot of effort to make herself look nice, I mean much more than when we usually go out for dinner.

We had a nice meal and then went for drinks she came on to me, she was a little nervous about it, it was just a peck on the lips but as the night went on we hugged and kissed each other more and more. Towards the end of the night she started grabbing my private area, she has done it before and it's always discreet so I don't mind, later she asks if I want to go back to hers, even when we have been out before she never suggests that.

We did eventually go back to hers however I said I would spend the night but I wouldn't have sex with her, not because I didn't want to but didn't think it was a healthy thing to do and didn't want just a one night stand, she was ok with that... .or so it seemed. So get into bed and she turns over facing away from me and starts hitting the mattress and her self, I manage to calm her down. She starts mumbling then says I don't know how to tell you and how to explain things to you, do I have to explain it, I said no she didn't.

She then starts to seek lots of validation, asking "am i ugly" "am i a minger" "am i fat" "am I a freak" I ask if that is how she feels, she says yes she asks again what I think I tell her she isn't and how much I like her, I bring up something she told me about the smile on my face when I first saw her, she talks about that a fair bit and it makes her feel happy that I thought she looked so stunning, that calmed her down more. I asked her if she remembered what I said about her earlier, she said yes, I said what did i say, she said erm... .lots of nice things, I said I told you that you were the most amazing girl I had ever met, she said yeah that was it, turned and smiled at me. We spent the night cuddling, if I took my arm off her she put it back on, she also came in and cuddled me. It felt nice and like she was hugging me not the other way round if you know what I mean?

Anyway woke up in the morning and left early as I had things to do and I didn't really want to chat to her mum, we get on well and she would be pleased I was getting on with her daughter again but didn't really want an awkward encounter. It was the first time we have been intimate and she hasn't pushed me away the next day, I was expecting her to do this thing were she sort of ignores me and says the minimum, but she wanted to interact before I left and said goodbye. I actually felt some progress. There have been nights we have kissed and she hasn't wanted to speak to me the next day.

Had a few moments that worried me while we were out, it's obviously a trigger when we talk about relationships, or my feelings towards her, I know now to let her initiate things. But we met some random people, we had 3 different separate people during the night say us, you two make an amazing couple, you look really good together, my head was going "don't say that, you'll ruin my night" but her response was to put her arm around me and give me a hug, and on one occasion a kiss in front of the person saying it. It shocked me a bit, maybe she is seeing things better now and wanting to try to move forward? Maybe it helped other people telling her we were good together. Turns out in her rant the other day that she didn't like me telling her I loved her, and was part of the pushing me away thing... .but that evening she did say, you do really love me don't you? I do so confirmed this.

Spending time during our period apart and reading the lessons and other forum posts on here, also helped I'm sure I handled things differently and maybe another reason the night went so well.

Time will tell, I think I need to keep working on me, I think that I need to keep reminding myself of the lessons, I think that I need to be careful with her to not push our relationship and let her move things forward at a pace she can deal with, I think that I need to not act as needy. I am more comfortable with things than when I first posted here, i'm starting to understand it's not me and there are things she does to cope. I now realise that I need to be careful not to make assumptions, and if she doesn't reply to a message it's because she can't cope,its not always because of me or something I've done but she is struggling, I now realise she likes me to communicate even if she doesn't respond, i think when I stop messaging she feels I have left her, it's just that she can't talk to me at that time for whatever reason, I'm actually wondering if it's fear she will get angry and that will push me away so says nothing instead?. I now feel stronger and if she doesn't respond then it's not the end of the world I have other friends, other people to talk to and realise it's not me.

She works odd shifts and very long hours, I have seen her before after only one night and she gets exhausted, she said to me that night that she had been subscribed sleeping pills as the lack of sleep effects her emotions and moods. She has said to me before that she couldn't talk to me during her shift cycle, x number of nights on x number of nights off. We have talked before during a shift cycle but she is normally very short with me, so not sure how to handle this yet. I sent a message to her and haven't had a response yet but she is on shift, it was a only a light breezy message, didn't mention the night other than I had a good time. But didn't really expect one, I also know she only got about 30 mins sleep more than me and I'm absolutly shattered from spending the majority of the night up with each other and I have had more sleep than her since and haven't been working.

Not 100% sure where we are as a couple BUT I had a fun night, I have realised that this is how I need to take things one day/night at a time, go and have fun enjoy her company and let her progress things. She is aware of what I want so it is upto her to show what she wants.

Feeling better about myself, I feel stronger, I actually feel like I know myself a bit better, feel like I can handle the situation better now as well.  It's all early days in my learning process.

[formflier]

 

So... .what do you see happening next?

[mr-macgyver]

In what way?

[formflier]

In what way?

For the r/s.  What is your plan?  Where do you want to take this r/s?

Another way of saying it.  If you are in a r/s with a pwBPD traits... .leaving the "status" of the r/s up to them is probably not a good idea.  Chances they would take it to a "healthy" place are not that high.

My hope for you... .my suggestion for you... .is to think about what steps you think need to be taken to get your r/s to a healthier place.

[mr-macgyver]

Thanks for clarifying.

Erm... .don't have a plan as such... .I am nervous now as to how to proceed because if I push her she will back off... .she has spoken to me before and said she is frustrated because she felt she should have been able to call what we had a relationship months ago, but when she does it scares her. I'm willing to give her time.

I really do have feelings for her and can see a future, we are good together and I do want a relationship.

I know she had a long term relationship before we met, so I know she is capable, she moved abroad with him, lived with him, but I also know that when that ended she went to a very low place, she said it was the lowest she had been and is scared of letting someone be so close again.

Knowing what I have said about the status of the relationship and her fears how do you think I proceed? How can I take things to a healthy place? What can I say to her? without causing a trigger. My thoughts were to keep things cool, try my best to reduce saying things that trigger and let the trust continue to build? However now you have said that maybe I can do something to help... .I'm more than happy to take the lead, I'm just unsure on the way to do that, so it wont cause triggers and for her to push me away? Any suggestions on steps I can take?

Any help/advice appreciated :-)

[formflier]

Thanks for clarifying.

Erm... .don't have a plan as such... .

Do you want to have a plan? 

Even better... .have you sorted out your values for yourself... .for the type of r/s that you want. 

If your values aren't stable... .or well thought out... .probably not a good idea to make a r/s plan.

Once values are sorted out... .then you can sort out boundaries to protect those values... .then you can proceed with confidence into a r/s (with anyone) knowing that you know who you are. 

If they are ok with who you are and your values... .then the r/s may have a future.  If they constantly trample your boundaries... .that doesn't bode well for the future of a r/s.

Thoughts?  Does this make sense to you?