Another triggered reaction to her knowing my thoughts and emotions

[formflier]

So... I see I kinda set myself up for this one... .but I think my reaction was in the right direction.

I was frustrated that my wife seemed to be avoiding coming to bed... .I wanted to snuggle and talk.  She kept making other choices... .

She finally gets to bed... .nice snuggle... some talking... and our almost two year old comes strolling in the room.

Wife would have been happy... .it seems... .keeping her in our bed.   I asked wife to take her back to her room and get her to  sleep... then come back.  This gets done and we are finally back to snuggling and talking.

I seem to have some general anxiety... .who knows... .and sometimes talking it out with my wife works out well... .that is what I was working on.  Plus... .just nice to be close... .it helps me relax.

So... I'm explaining and describing my feelings... .and the talk seemed to be going ok.  I usually have a goal for a talk... this time I didn't... .other than being close and "talking" as a goal.

At some point... .she announces "I know you are just mad that xyz came in the room and messed up your plans... "  She seemed to be ready to continue giving a speech.  I triggered.  I sat up in bed and said "Stop it! Stop telling me my emotions... "  She started to ratchet it up and yammer on about my interrupting her... .I said "I'm going to take a break and come back soon... ." and left the room... .she was yammering away when I left... .

I go downstairs and get a glass of water.  Paced about some... .refilled my water and headed back upstairs.  I'm still a bit triggered... .I'm guessing 5 minutes have passed.

I walk into the room... she is in bed and quiet... .and all the way on her side... almost about to fall into the floor she is that far over.

I hop back into bed and ask her if I can apologize to her.  She says yes.  I ask her if she can "come over here and snuggle... "  while I apologize.  Grudgingly she does.  I waited a minute or two after snuggling to say "I apologize for interrupting you... " I didn't explain it... .just said that.  I think she said... ."ok".

More quiet snuggling... .

Not sure if I or she changed the subject... but there was some talking... .(finally got a nice talk in) ...   sex... .some more talking (it went kinda late) and off to bed.

No more interruptions or other unhealthy behavior... .

So... .that's my story... .hoping you guys can help me on this.  I think I started enforcing a boundary... .that I was still sorting out in my head.  I don't want to be inconsistent... .

[maxsterling]

It sounds to me like you were able to restore respectful communication quickly - both in re-regulating herself, and in not allowing things to escalate into the "much worse".  I'm both impressed and amazed by this.  Had I been in the same situation, an object would likely have been thrown 

The one thing you mentioned - sex - has me curious, though, as to whether you think that was a good or bad thing given the circumstances.  I ask because in similar situations where she may be in a bad mood or snap at me, and a short time later she wants sex - I feel like if I have sex with her I am enabling a bad behavior.  So she may be grouchy at me all day, nitpicky and critical, I feel exhausted by this, and at 10:30PM, she suddenly is warm to me and wants sex.  I feel like if I have sex with her, I am teaching her it is okay to act that way and that I will still love her the same way.  The truth is, I feel hurt and emotionally exhausted, and not true to my feelings if I engage in physical intimacy at that moment. 

Thoughts on this?

[vortex of confusion]

I am curious as to why you apologized for interrupting. If you interrupted her to set the boundary of her not trying to tell you your emotions, then why apologize? I am thinking about this based on my experiences. Her hearing you apologize pretty much invalidates everything that you said or did in relation to putting up the boundary. At least that is the way I have experienced things with my husband.

I don't question the sex. I know that when my husband and I were getting along better in earlier days, we would have some really serious discussions/fights and neither one of us felt like it was over until we kissed and made up so to speak. It was a sign that everything was normal and okay.

I didn't start withholding sex from him until things got really complicated and ugly. There were times when it seemed like he would pick fights just to get sex. Everything revolved around sex so I took it out of the equation for my own mental health.

[Cat Familiar]

I know how frustrating it is to be told what I'm thinking and feeling, especially when it is so far off the mark. Then when I dispute it, he doubles down on his certainty that he knows what he is saying is true.

The irony is that when I ask him sometimes what he is feeling, he says, "I don't know," yet he's absolutely certain what goes on in my head.   

[MaroonLiquid]

I think only you know if apologizing was appropriate or not.  We weren't there, so if it was truly an inappropriate, harsh response, then I think it is warranted.  I don't know your wife, but here's my take... .I think she picked up on the fact that you wanted to be "alone" and she wanted it also.  But instead of saying something like, "Thank you for doing that.  I wanted to be alone with you too." (which would be the natural thing to want to hear), she projected all of it to you so she wouldn't look "weak" which triggered you?

[formflier]

 

Good comments and questions:

Apology:  This is my thinking... not saying it is correct for everyone.  Interrupting is bad.  I endeavor not do it.  I sometimes do.  I always apologize or acknowledge it.  When I say always... .I mean I try hard to do that... .

I try not to "justify" my bad behavior based on what someone else does... ."well... you did xyz wrong... .so I am ok in doing abc... ."

To me... that seems "BPDish"... .or bugs me... so I don't.

I try to teach my kids leadership... .leadership by example is best way to go... .so if I do something that needs an apology... .I try to do that.

A little long winded... but hope that makes sense. 

As far as the apology invalidating the other stuff I did... .it may.  Not sure how to fix that... .and I'll never know for sure.

So... .I choose to live out my values... .and if she thinks I'm doing it for some whacky reason... .or "really" apologizing for something else... .I don't control that.  So... whatever... .

[formflier]

I

The one thing you mentioned - sex - has me curious, though, as to whether you think that was a good or bad thing given the circumstances.  

Good question... .I did think about it.  And yeah... for the entire evening... .sex was on my mind... .on the agenda... .but then... there is rarely a time it isn't.  It was not "top of the list"... but was in there.

There have been times when I was triggered... p$ssed... .whatever... and declined.  But that is rare. 

She seemed kinda "middlin" on her mood.  So I straight up asked her if she wanted to do some stuff (basically an offer to take care of her first... .)

She said sure... .maybe in a few minutes.  I didn't push it... said sounds great.  We kept snuggling... I was doing some light massaging.

Maybe 5 or 10 minutes later... she said she was ready... .we got things going.

Anyway... .I'm pretty "low maintenance" on being "ready".  So... .for me I think it was ok.  While I didn't feel great at the start... .was in a much better "mental state" afterwards.  (Beavis and B@tthead laughing here is entirely appropriate... )

So... if you are the type of person that needs a little more warming up... .it might not have been a good choice.

Not sure if I really answered the question... or just talked around it... .keep asking if I missed the mark.

[vortex of confusion]

Apology:  This is my thinking... not saying it is correct for everyone.  Interrupting is bad.  I endeavor not do it.  I sometimes do.  I always apologize or acknowledge it.  When I say always... .I mean I try hard to do that... .

I try not to "justify" my bad behavior based on what someone else does... ."well... you did xyz wrong... .so I am ok in doing abc... ."

I agree that interrupting is bad. The source of my question is that I see the conflicting values: Go against my value to not interrupt OR allow my partner to carry on with a conversation that I am not comfortable with. I know the other night I interrupted him and put a stop to our conversation. I did the "I am sorry but" and I am not sure how I feel about that. I said something along the lines of, "I am sorry I stopped the conversation but I could feel myself getting really angry because you were talking around my questions instead of trying to answer them." I said that after a bit of a break.

I try to teach my kids leadership... .leadership by example is best way to go... .so if I do something that needs an apology... .I try to do that.

That makes sense. It sparked a question that I have been pondering for a while. Around here, apologies have become shallow and meaningless because it seems that "I am sorry" is the first thing that is uttered without any kind of sincerity whatsoever. And, there is a lot of people taking responsibility for things that they shouldn't take responsibility for. I am thinking that I might want to start another thread about apologies but am not quite sure how to approach it yet.

[formflier]

 

IMO... ."I'm sorry but... " is not an apology

IMO... and apology is an expression of your feelings towards another person... .it is not tied to a transaction... .I will apologize if you do... .and it shouldn't be conditional.

It is an expression of sorrow... .

In my world... .asking for forgiveness is a step above.  There is an admitting something that was done wrong... .and asking for forgiveness.

In earlier years... .this was much more common in my marriage.  I would like to get back to that.

Yeah... I think a thread discussing I'm sorry is a good idea.

Go for it Vortex... .I'll keep an eye out

[Notwendy]

I think the evening went pretty well, and it didn't escalate. It was good that you walked away when you felt triggered, and also apologized. I think the apology was a connecting gesture, and if that led to smething else- well OK.

Someone thinking they know what I am thinking is crazy making. However what is most triggering for me is when someone acts on it. Sometimes my H gets angry because he thinks I did or thought something that isn't true. My mom would do the same. However, I think we all tend to try to interpret other people's moods and feelings by their body language.

It's very confusing to grow up in a home where people don't say what they mean and vice versa, and so they get what they want by manipulation. For us, being able to read mom's moods was survival. We had to know when she was angry or triggered, so we got very good at reading the signals. Sometimes it seems that mom was mind reading, but she was so perceptive that she was also a good guesser. When someone lives with a disordered person, trying to figure out what they are doing or thinking is a means of survival, but we could be wrong sometimes too.

My H's dad was a very invalidating man. If you told him what you wanted, he would ridicule you, and say " you don't want that". He was verbally abusive. The way people in my H's family communicate is indirectly- hinting, manipulating, telling other to tell the other person what to do. It really seems crazy to an outsider, but it was the way they survived.

If my H is interested in sex, he might say "snuggle"  instead, so if I think he means snuggle and fall asleep then he feels rejected. Also, if I say "snuggle" he might think I mean something else. Also, couples can hint to each other if they are interested. Your wife may have been reading your mind- but maybe not- she may have been guessing. First, you were annoyed that she didn't come to bed right away, you seemed anxious and she may have picked up that you wanted something, and you asked her to take your child back to the room. She may have concluded from that that you were interested in sex and the comment was an indirect way of guessing.

I say this because this is something I may have said at one time if I noticed the same things, because I was not allowed to ask what I wanted when I was growing up and also, I had the role model (mom).  I know now that it is not effective. I might also have said it because I am not always sure what my H wants. It's a way of asking if you are interested without being direct, and that could be her style. Even in marriage, being turned down for sex is hurtful to some extent, even though it is normal that people are sometimes tired, not feeling well, or not interested. It is hard to not take that personally. How much harder for someone with low self esteem?  So was this an indirect way of asking if you were interested?

Bedtime is also perilous for triggers for us because we are both tired. The last time this happened, I asked my H a question with no intention and he interpreted it wrong and got angry. Instead of walking away, I panicked. Anger is a trigger for me since childhood when making mom mad was trouble. I also got upset because what he was angry about was not what happened but what he thought happened. I don't like having my mind read too. I did ask him to fact check with me next time if he thinks something about me that upsets him. However, I also realize that asking him late at night isn't a good idea for either of us and try to talk less.

You did set a boundary on not being told how you feel which is good. Another one would be a request for clarification when she says something but that might be harder with someone not used to direct conversation.

[MaybeSo]

Were you mad?

[formflier]

Were you mad?

I was "generally anxious"... .sometimes when I get that way... .being close to her helps.  Then I can talk through what I'm feeling.

Of course... this assumes she is "normal"... .and not a a BPD trait tear of some sort.

So... .in the midst of me telling her my thoughts and emotions... and sorting through them... .she up and tells me my motivations and emotions (which I wasn't feeling)

So... .shocked... .yep... I would say mad... .or "how could you... "

There was also some "nope... .not going to do this anymore... "

We had talked about it some in MC... .although it wasn't the focus.  We talked about how telling each other that we had feelings that we really don't have... .is invalidating.

Long winded way of saying... sure I was mad... .I would probably say more shocked... .but somewhere between mad and shocked.

[MaybeSo]

?


Were you mad about the interruption?  Your child came in and there was an interruption.  Wife handled the child and then came back.  You continue to cuddle and talk.  All of a sudden she blurts out that she knows you are mad about the interruption.

Were you?

[MissyM]

We had talked about it some in MC... .although it wasn't the focus.  We talked about how telling each other that we had feelings that we really don't have... .is invalidating.

For me I am triggered when my dBPDh blames me. What we are working on with our MCs is me saying how much that hurt me instead of gearing up with my armour and arguing my boundary.   My dBPDh is responding so much better to this and is really working on empathy with me, which is his assignment.  Then I go on to say that I love my husband and want us to be a team.  Really, we have been practicing this for a week and it has been relationship changing.  

[formflier]

?


Were you mad about the interruption?  Your child came in and there was an interruption.  Wife handled the child and then came back.  You continue to cuddle and talk.  All of a sudden she blurts out that she knows you are mad about the interruption.

Were you?

No... .we have 8 children... .we are frequently interrupted... .it's just life.

So... .really... mad wasn't on the radar until she brought it up.

[MaybeSo]

Gotcha.

Wow!  Eight kids!

[formflier]

Gotcha.

Wow!  Eight kids!

Yeah... .Wow is right.

Oldest is 19.  Youngest is almost 2 years old.  Youngest is the perpetrator of the interruption.   She is so cute... .its hard to get mad at the interruption... .   

Yeah... .think about 8 kids with a stay at home mom that has some high functioning BPD traits. 

That will give you some motivation to get this thing going in the right direction.

And it is going in the right direction.  I just wish it would go faster... .

[MissyM]

Yeah... .think about 8 kids with a stay at home mom that has some high functioning BPD traits.

How do you have time for anything!  I have 2 at home and it is so much work. 

[formflier]

Yeah... .think about 8 kids with a stay at home mom that has some high functioning BPD traits.

How do you have time for anything!  I have 2 at home and it is so much work. 

3 or 4... .somewhere in there was the worst.  Everyone was needy... .and not much help.

Now... we have 3 "mini-parents"... .almost 4.  We use buddy system.

The stroke of genius (if I do say so myself...    )  is that whoever is taking care of the baby... .and doing it well... .is off the radar for chores and other tasking.  As you can imagine... there is always lots to do.

This sets up the dynamic that kids argue about it being "their turn" to take care of the baby... .

If you mess up taking care of the baby... .you get kicked off... .someone is eager to take your place.

Plus... .after 3 or 4... you have seen it all.  Our poor 4 year old can't get away with anything... .we can see it coming from a mile away.

We have a "crystal ball" that we talk about at the dinner table... .when the younger ones are acting up... .or not wanting to listen.  We poll the older kids if they want to look into the crystal ball and figure out if parents win... or the 4 year old... .or 6 for that matter.  That usually lightens the mood and they snap out of it... .

When they out number you... .you have to outsmart them... .   

[Notwendy]

Wow, 8 kids, I'm impressed.

Also, parenting 8 kids is a high function. Any number of kids will test a parent's patience, so hat's off to both of you.

You mentioned you were feeling anxious and talking to her helps. I agree, I'd love to do this, but this is very triggering to my H. He isn't always in a place to be empathetic, and can instead say something that is hurtful or triggering.

I'm asking you this because, as much as we wish for them to be different, we can't change how someone else thinks, however, we can be aware that sharing our feelings might be hard for them to manage. This shouldn't mean not communicating or WOE, but maybe being more aware that their responses aren't what we expect.

It was a similar incident that brought me to this board. It didn't end like yours. My H is extremely competent, so much so, that I could not imagine that he was prone to a distorted thinking pattern and remained puzzled by his Jeckyll/Hyde behavior. Since I value being straightfoward and open, I assumed the same thing with him. He has often hurt my feelings by saying horrible things about me when triggered, and later being loving and complimentary. Of course, I don't want him to think these things, so I was always trying to "talk it out" which almost never worked.

So, our evening started out with me chit chatting and then asking a question. Questions are triggers. I'd love to know why, but sometimes any question will do it. So, out of the blue, he got triggered. Me, being unaware of why,  asked him what was bothering him. Then he started getting angry, which makes me anxious and is unsettling to him. In his rage he accused me of things I never did. It was entirely his interpretation of them, but it was so far off base that I couldn't accept that any of it had anything to do with me. The realization that many of his rages were due to interpretations of things I said or did, not what happened was pretty sobering. Every one of them was how I was criticising him, or hurting him in some way. It's an all or none thing. We could be getting along all weekend and if I say one thing that bothers him- then I have ruined the whole weekend according to him.

I realized that I have no control over what he interprets, but I don't have to accept it as true or allow him to rage at me. I can ask him to talk about it with me if he is willing and I can apologize if it is something I'm responsible for.

With your wife, I wonder if your being anxious and talking to her was somehow triggering to her, or if she was interpreting it in a way you didn't know? I agree that telling you what you are thinking is not appropriate and that walking away when triggered is a good thing. Would it help for you to ask her why she is thinking this the next time this happens?

[formflier]

Would it help for you to ask her why she is thinking this the next time this happens?

We are working on that... .

Letting each other "fully explain"... what they are thinking... what they want.

I realize the point that they are who they are... .I don't think that means we leave them alone.

I think it means we realize their rate of change... .will most likely be smaller or slower than ours.

I realize now... that for many years I enabled bad behavior.  I helped train her to get her to this point.  It won't get undone overnight... .

That also doesn't mean I get to "stay put"... .I need to be marching towards healthy as well.

[Notwendy]

I agree with you. Me too- years of catering to the rages and WOE made those rages work very well at getting what one wants. Mom used them too.

They say childhood trauma results in behavior patterns that were useful for survival but are maladaptive later on. I was well trained to be an enabler, accept whatever my parents said was true, and scramble to meet their wishes. I see where years of this in a marriage made things a lot worse. It took a lot of work to be able to look at the context of the rages and think, "this isn't about me", which is why I am trying to learn what to do differently. I am sure there will be incidents I need help with that I will post on this board too.

We're all walking on that path to "healthy".

[Cat Familiar]

My H is extremely competent, so much so, that I could not imagine that he was prone to a distorted thinking pattern and remained puzzled by his Jeckyll/Hyde behavior. Since I value being straightfoward and open, I assumed the same thing with him. He has often hurt my feelings by saying horrible things about me when triggered, and later being loving and complimentary. Of course, I don't want him to think these things, so I was always trying to "talk it out" which almost never worked... .So, out of the blue, he got triggered. Me, being unaware of why,  asked him what was bothering him. Then he started getting angry, which makes me anxious and is unsettling to him. In his rage he accused me of things I never did. It was entirely his interpretation of them, but it was so far off base that I couldn't accept that any of it had anything to do with me. The realization that many of his rages were due to interpretations of things I said or did, not what happened was pretty sobering. Every one of them was how I was criticising him, or hurting him in some way. It's an all or none thing. We could be getting along all weekend and if I say one thing that bothers him- then I have ruined the whole weekend according to him.

Wow, Notwendy, you are describing my marriage! My husband is an Ivy League educated attorney, the most intelligent person I've ever known. It was unfathomable the first time I watched him become completely irrationally angry. It took a few years for the veneer to crack and wow, when it did, a person emerged from the underground that had no resemblance to the kind, mild-mannered, thoughtful man I believed I had married.

I too, tried to "talk it out" whenever he would get into one of these "states," and as you have discovered, it only made things worse. Being a very rational, practical person, I was completely dumbfounded about how to deal with this crazy making and I just kept trying harder.

And so I was accused of "being on (my) high horse" and criticizing him. One silly remark I might have made teasing him about something, which would have been perceived as playful by a "non", would trigger a rage. And like you, one little insignificant comment made by me can ruin his (and my) whole day.

[Notwendy]

Yes, Cat, we are married to similar people. It took me years to figure out what was happening with my parents, because on the surface, they are so competent too. However, mom was over the top- drinking, raging. Dysregulation was her normal. We were so happy for the times she was not. But she could hold it together in public and keep the bad stuff at home.

H is nothing like her and it seemed I could never figure out why our marriage was so tough. He didn't drink, he's a hard worker, and keeps complete control of himself most of the time, but it is almost too unreal. We have, never, in our entire marriage, had a real heart to heart talk. When he speaks on something that is remotely emotional, his words are halting and measured. Everything about him is calculated.

Except when he is in an angry rage and it builds up until that rage is triggered- by anything he decides to twist into his head as an insult to him. And wow, it is the most irrational thing when he does, but it is also revealing.

When someone acts so rational, it is a complete surprise to see them act like this. Of the things that I have been raged at for:

I had a bladder infection and explained it to him and that it was painful and I was not available for sex until it was better. I thought he understood that meant I was not available because of the pain, but that night he wanted sex and was in- a rage because I rejected him ( it had nothing to do with him)

I asked him a question about his family- a rage because he decided I was insulting his family and did not care about them. Earlier that night I was sending Christmas presents to them that I had picked out. In fact, I have sent almost every holiday/birthday gift to them from us since we were married. He knew that. How that got to his conclusion, I have no idea.

Taking a nap when I was pregnant and tired meant I was ignoring him.

Going through my college mementos and raging over old boyfriends who I had dated years before I met him and was not in contact with since. We both were aware that we had had other relationships before we met and I never lied to him about that, but somehow, now, this was a betrayal. ( there was nothing out of the ordinary in the diaries, just my feelings at the time ). I would understand that if I had done something that he might be upset about like hiding another marriage, or some other big secret, but this was not that)

Raging over visiting an old male friend and his family who I never dated. This was a family get together with all spouses and kids, so there could be nothing the least bit romantic over that.

It goes on and on. It never quite fit the full NPD, and I thought all BPD's were like my mom, but I finally saw the distorted thinking, rages, paranoid responses- everything is an attack on him, not just me but others. People at work are "bothering" him when they are simply asking him something ( fortunately he doesn't go off on them) . If my teen age kids are involved in something they are doing- they are "ignoring him" ( don't all teens do that? ) and so many things like that. Sometimes it did remind me of mom, but it was never that bad. Still, if it talks like a duck and walks like a duck, there's been a whole lot of feathers and quacking going on.

[Moselle]

I think it means we realize their rate of change... .will most likely be smaller or slower than ours.

This is a tough one to swallow!

Formflier, do you know why you were generally anxious? My experience with my W is that she picks up any anxiety whatsoever and jumps to the conclusion that I am angry at her. She's mostly worried she's done something wrong.

[MaybeSo]

Formflier, do you know why you were generally anxious? My experience with my W is that she picks up any anxiety whatsoever and jumps to the conclusion that I am angry at her. She's mostly worried she's done something wrong.

Bingo. I think this is extremely common. It is likely that in childhood attachment experiences the person felt responsible or overwhelmed with a caregivers emotional states or was blamed for it or expected to help take care of it. Parentification, merged boundaries in the family etc., can easily lead to this kind of reaction, it’s a kind of developmental, relational trauma. 

[Notwendy]

Maybeso- that's a good point. I was the parentified caretaker child for BPD mom, so sensing anxiety might make me feel as if someone was triggered.

Anxiety is also not easy to read. The same physical changes- elevated heart rate, might make someone think a person was angry or aroused. It's possible that the wife was wondering that too.

My H is sensitive to my anxiety which might trigger him. It can be a difficult situation if I think he's angry, I get anxious because he might rage, and that triggers him.

[formflier]

Bingo. I think this is extremely common. It is likely that in childhood attachment experiences the person felt responsible or overwhelmed with a caregivers emotional states or was blamed for it or expected to help take care of it. Parentification, merged boundaries in the family etc., can easily lead to this kind of reaction, it’s a kind of developmental, relational trauma. 

I could see this coming out of her FOO.  I don't know all the dynamics... .but she was one of the quieter ones in the family

[Moselle]

This is an interesting thread.  Mine was also the quiet one. She was eldest of 6 girls, and I think was expected to parent the younger children,  as her mother dysregulated. She was the good one that the mother actually isolated and hated. Mother boasts of being "naughty" and "rebellious". My W was always perfectly mannered, didn't rebel,  was diligent and studious.

I think she learned to play the role, and was more like the father and drew the mother's hatred because of it. #2 was the golden child.

BTW each time a girl was born the mother went into depression.  The kids were told "All mom wanted was a little boy". How's that for building up the self esteem of your ltitle girls?

What is my role in this? I think I was drawn to the underdog,  the waif in need of rescue. Now I'm in need of rescue LOL.

[formflier]

What is my role in this? I think I was drawn to the underdog,  the waif in need of rescue. Now I'm in need of rescue LOL.

Mine was "waifish"  quieter... .mysterious.

Now she exhibits more queen type behavior.