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notdownyet

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« on: January 10, 2015, 07:34:59 AM »

Over the past week or two I’ve had a really tough time coping with my BPDw’s betrayal, which happened towards the end of 2013.  This was an affair that lasted for 4 months.

Throughout 2014, she’s been up and down with her moods, which has changed the focus from repairing our relationship, to the managing her relapses and erratic behaviour.  This has left us with lots of unresolved issues.

To complicate matters, my BPDw’s also bipolar and epileptic.

A lot of the time I feel utterly exasperated by my BPDw’s her lack of empathy and vindictive behaviour.   For example yesterday, during an argument, my BPDw told me that she didn’t feel physically attracted to me anymore. To add credibility to this, she went on to say that still loves me and wants to stay with me, but simply doesn’t have any sexual feelings towards me.  She said she does have sexual feeling; however, they’re just not for me.  She also added that she’s only stayed with me, as she feared that I’d take the children off her, if we separated; saying that I would use her diagnosis against her.

Using her diagnosis against her, translates as her abusing prescription drugs and alcohol, abusing and destroying our finances, starting an affair, her violent behaviour (which of course is my fault) etc

To further back this-up, she said that she’d discussed this with her mother.

She also went on to say that she was happy for me to look for sex outside our relationship, and showed not a sign of insincerity.  As you can imagine, this hurt a lot.

Only hours later did admit that she didn’t meant what she’d said.  This only came out, as I pursued the issue, with a view of finding a resolution.  There was no sorry offered or any great show of empathy or regret.  It’s almost as if her mind-games are somehow to be considered as a normal part of a relationship, and is totally blind to how destructive she is.

If I try to address this, she often stonewalls me and shuts down.

If only she put as much effort into recognising her behaviour and changing for the better, as she does with her sadistic acting performances.

Does anyone else experience this? (Perhaps I should be phrasing this as “Does anyone not experience this?”)

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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2015, 07:10:26 PM »

This is one of the hardest aspects of a BPD relationship. They say what they are thinking right now, they mean it and they over exaggerate it. Then later they dont mean it. This is not a considered campaigned. It is just thoughtless, impulsive thinking aloud.

Even when you know what it is, it is hard to cope with. Trying to resolve it later leaves you out of sync, still in the mood they were in, but not now, and you actually trigger them back into it again but this time you will be the instigator.

The important thing to consider is not what is said but how often and consistently is the "attitude" displayed.

The betrayal, in her mind will be in the past and not dwelt on. Is the fact that you are still dwelling on it causing you to attribute more weight to her unkind words than they deserve? Is resentment causing a victim mentality?

Believe it or not a pwBPDs infidelity is often, in their mind, nothing to do with you and again, in their mind, none of your business. They only make it about you as a defensive measure when confronted. Hence they run you down to justify their actions.

Excuses given by pwBPD for most of their actions rarely have anything to do with the reason. Which is why it is so hard to resolve stuff as you don't really know what it is about.

Their is no apology as she believes you made her think, say or do whatever it is that maybe inappropriate. Again making it your fault, hers is an understandable reaction, in her eyes
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2015, 08:11:06 PM »

Been there too.

Exactly same: he loves me but is not sexually attracted to me. It hurts.

I have made very clear, that he is free to do anything he wants sexually, with whom he wants to - but he can then consider our relationship being over, and he can put all his belongings to the car (they fit), and drive away from my life.

I also have told him my philosophy: we are humans, not animals. Humans make choices, based on complex combination of intellectual, emotional, rational, financial, political etc. reasons that we are not thinking consciosly. Choises are often exclusive, and you live with the consequences. Relationship is a choice. Love is not only an emotion, it is also includes choices: acts of loving / expressing your love. Sex is part of it.

On some level he understood what I meant. On the other hand not.

That happened by the way when he cheated me a few years ago. He said I am a tight ass, and sex is naturally separate from love.

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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2015, 08:48:43 PM »

Their is no apology as she believes you made her think, say or do whatever it is that maybe inappropriate. Again making it your fault, hers is an understandable reaction, in her eyes.

Well!... Doesn't it make you feel, err... ,  attracted to them?... . 
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« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2015, 05:59:18 AM »

This is one of the hardest aspects of a BPD relationship. They say what they are thinking right now, they mean it and they over exaggerate it. Then later they dont mean it. This is not a considered campaigned. It is just thoughtless, impulsive thinking aloud.

Even when you know what it is, it is hard to cope with. Trying to resolve it later leaves you out of sync, still in the mood they were in, but not now, and you actually trigger them back into it again but this time you will be the instigator.

The important thing to consider is not what is said but how often and consistently is the "attitude" displayed.

The betrayal, in her mind will be in the past and not dwelt on. Is the fact that you are still dwelling on it causing you to attribute more weight to her unkind words than they deserve? Is resentment causing a victim mentality?

Believe it or not a pwBPDs infidelity is often, in their mind, nothing to do with you and again, in their mind, none of your business. They only make it about you as a defensive measure when confronted. Hence they run you down to justify their actions.

Excuses given by pwBPD for most of their actions rarely have anything to do with the reason. Which is why it is so hard to resolve stuff as you don't really know what it is about.

Their is no apology as she believes you made her think, say or do whatever it is that maybe inappropriate. Again making it your fault, hers is an understandable reaction, in her eyes

Thanks for your replies.  What you’ve written here is amazingly accurate, and I think it’s a very well observed appraisal of my situation.

I think I have a good awareness of the points that you’ve made, but when I’m on the receiving end of her destructive behaviours and cruel mind-games, I find it hard to have a rational perspective on things.

Regarding your point about “Victim mentality” – yes, at times (most of the time) I do feel like a victim.  In my mind, I want her to tell me how sorry she is for what she’s done to me and our family.  As with any betrayal, the circumstances of how, where and what took place, are truly despicable and have no place in civilised society.

When I found out about the betrayal, not only did my BPDw turn on me, but so did her family, as well as other parties effected/involved by the affair.

For a long time, I felt utterly alone.  Things are now much improved, but it will take a long time to get over this, though I’ll never forget.

Again, like most stories of this nature, it’s much more involved and complicated than I’ve described.

In short, I’m probably carrying around a lot of hurt and resentment that’s not fully resolved.  I often find myself, trying to rationalise the irrational.  However, I have a good understanding of mental health issues, and most of the time, feel I can recognise my BPDw’s irrational thinking patterns.

Regarding excuses for her actions, yes this is an on-going problem.  In her mind (when triggered) I’m the cause of most of her problems.   Not only this, but getting her to be honest about what’s she’s thinking is difficult.  She often misrepresents herself, during sessions, with her p.

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« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2015, 06:38:47 AM »

Been there too.

Exactly same: he loves me but is not sexually attracted to me. It hurts.

I have made very clear, that he is free to do anything he wants sexually, with whom he wants to - but he can then consider our relationship being over, and he can put all his belongings to the car (they fit), and drive away from my life.

I also have told him my philosophy: we are humans, not animals. Humans make choices, based on complex combination of intellectual, emotional, rational, financial, political etc. reasons that we are not thinking consciosly. Choises are often exclusive, and you live with the consequences. Relationship is a choice. Love is not only an emotion, it is also includes choices: acts of loving / expressing your love. Sex is part of it.

On some level he understood what I meant. On the other hand not.

That happened by the way when he cheated me a few years ago. He said I am a tight ass, and sex is naturally separate from love.

Sorry to hear that you’ve been experiencing the same hurtful words.

It sounds like you're quite clear on what behaviour is and isn’t acceptable though, which is good.

I often feel that my BPDw, does the same thing, regarding separating out sex from intimacy.  I appreciate that sex doesn’t always have romantic/intimate though.

I guess is probably a form of “splitting” and not being able to see things in an integrated way.  In the past, sex is something that I believe my BPDw has escaped into.

I’ve come to the conclusion, that when my BPDw does this, she possibly fears rejection in some way, and withholds sex as a way of having control.  I could be wrong about this.

When I ask her about this, I find that this can be triggering, and when triggered, she’ll typically look for answers outside herself, which then turns to blaming and usually a rage episode.

The sex issue, then just becomes a tool to inflict hurt.

Does this sound anything like your experience?

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« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2015, 06:53:43 AM »

My ex told me many times he would say things he didn't mean just to see my reaction so he would know ahead of time what my reaction would be if he ever said something and meant it. That make any logical sense? No. We would have entire interactions based on what I would later find out was hypotheticals. Its like playacting instead of reality.
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« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2015, 07:17:37 AM »

Sorry for what you are going through. I understand the pain you feel, we went through this, too.

My wife did most everything you are describing after her affair. She claimed they were truly in love and that it was my fault for driving her there. Several years later, she explain that was her defense mechanism. It was too painful to let herself believe she had been used as his sex toy, so she choose not to believe it. It was too painful to accept what she had done to me, so she convinced herself it was my fault so she would not have to face what she had done.

The denial was eventually replaced by extreme guilt over the affair to the point she still apologizes and cries almost daily, even though it was 7 years ago. I forgave her long ago, she has not forgiven herself. She has seemingly tried to push me to cheat on her so we will be on even ground- a way to alleviate some of her guilt. Your wife may be doing the same though she does not realize why she is doing it.

The horrible things your wife is saying... .mine did the same. Later she would say it was not true. When I ask her why she does not apologize, she says she is too ashamed to. Many times she has broke down to the point of hyperventilation and hysteria, crying and telling me she does not know why she says the things she says. She describes it as, "Looking at myself from outside my body, and I see this horrible person saying these things and I cannot stop her."    

BPD and bipolar are serious illnesses and difficult to deal with. In combination, they are seemingly impossible. Is she on meds for the bipolar? That has to be dealt with before any T can help her. Depakote has helped keep my wife off the manic episodes, though we still deal with the BPD behaviors.  

I encourage you to find some counseling of your own. It is something I wish I had done. Learn everything you can about BPD and bipolar; this site is a good resource. Remember that your wife is going to be dealing with some extreme guilt and will not process it in a healthy way. And most of all- this is difficult- learn to separate the disease from the person and do not take her attacks personally.
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« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2015, 07:41:36 AM »

Do you think they withhold sex or treat it as if it doesn't matter so that you will in essence chase them or court them again?
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« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2015, 07:57:35 AM »

Do you think they withhold sex or treat it as if it doesn't matter so that you will in essence chase them or court them again?

I think there are a lot of different reasons. Your suggestion is plausible.

Thanks to Crumbling and Formflier working through it with me in a different post, I think I have figured out my BPDw withholds sex because she is ashamed and guilty. She does not feel she deserves it. Only a good T is going to get us past this.

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« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2015, 08:29:19 AM »

Been in verbal abuse-land too.

My wife also puts stuff out there that makes me think she grew up in the worst of the worst places.  I'm often flabbergasted as to what garbage can come out of a person that is supposed to be decent and civilized.  There's just no limit to how far the nonsense will go.

And don't get me started on all the lies and reality-twisting. 

But I'm learning.

Most of it is purely vented frustration, nothing more.  Coming from a person who does not know how to handle herself, and life in general.  A person who is emotionally blocked at the level of a small child, and who has not yet developed the control over her feelings that a reasonable adult has.  A person who does not consider the consequences of her actions.

For my wife, I think it originated from her childhood, where every mistake was punished severely.  As such, she has grown too terrified to review her own actions and their consequences, and any attempt at criticizing her is punished with scorching emotional abuse.

Also, she has never learned that a healthy dose of self-criticism leads to self-improvement, and that we all learn from our mistakes.  According to her, mistakes are not allowed, and need to be punished, no exceptions.

Important point here : she will say anything to just win the current battle, so do not take it too seriously.  My mistake was to take her every word as proof of her opinion; I know now that it is not the case : as said, most of it is frustration venting.

It has helped me to stay sane, and get a hold on the situation.

Just recently I talked to my mother, who had the same fits when I was a child.  She said afterwards she always felt extremely guilty about the outburst, and that she couldn't figure out why she put her family through such abuse.  But at the moment itself, she just couldn't help it, it was stronger than herself.  Hormones probably played a big role, as the synchronization was too obvious to be ignored.


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« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2015, 08:37:13 AM »

Sorry for what you are going through. I understand the pain you feel, we went through this, too.

My wife did most everything you are describing after her affair. She claimed they were truly in love and that it was my fault for driving her there. Several years later, she explain that was her defense mechanism. It was too painful to let herself believe she had been used as his sex toy, so she choose not to believe it. It was too painful to accept what she had done to me, so she convinced herself it was my fault so she would not have to face what she had done.

The denial was eventually replaced by extreme guilt over the affair to the point she still apologizes and cries almost daily, even though it was 7 years ago. I forgave her long ago, she has not forgiven herself. She has seemingly tried to push me to cheat on her so we will be on even ground- a way to alleviate some of her guilt. Your wife may be doing the same though she does not realize why she is doing it.

The horrible things your wife is saying... .mine did the same. Later she would say it was not true. When I ask her why she does not apologize, she says she is too ashamed to. Many times she has broke down to the point of hyperventilation and hysteria, crying and telling me she does not know why she says the things she says. She describes it as, "Looking at myself from outside my body, and I see this horrible person saying these things and I cannot stop her."   

BPD and bipolar are serious illnesses and difficult to deal with. In combination, they are seemingly impossible. Is she on meds for the bipolar? That has to be dealt with before any T can help her. Depakote has helped keep my wife off the manic episodes, though we still deal with the BPD behaviors. 

I encourage you to find some counseling of your own. It is something I wish I had done. Learn everything you can about BPD and bipolar; this site is a good resource. Remember that your wife is going to be dealing with some extreme guilt and will not process it in a healthy way. And most of all- this is difficult- learn to separate the disease from the person and do not take her attacks personally.

My BPDw related the affair as only being physical from the very outset; born out of hypersexuality.  Of course she didn’t use these terms at the time, as she was in no fit state to.  My BPDw’s defence mechanism, was to lash-out at me, and to escape into prescription drugs.

My wife too was used and manipulated by a person that we now realise is a psychopath/sociopath.  This in its self has left a lot of scars.

Interesting that you say your with your wife described “Looking at myself from outside my body…”.  My BPDw said the exact same thing, which I’m now aware, is referred to as disassociation.  I wonder whether this is a common experience in those with a dual diagnosis?

In terms of medication, my BPDw’s on:

325mg lamictal

5mg Olanzapine

However, she’s not yet stabilised for a significant enough amount of time to start therapy.

To further complicate things, she’s now planning to change anti-psychotics, to one that causes less weight gain – so I could have further hell in store.


Do you think they withhold sex or treat it as if it doesn't matter so that you will in essence chase them or court them again?

I find that sex is/can be withheld for a lot of complex reasons. 

In my case, I often feel that it’s being with-held, because of a deep seated shame; that relates to the damage caused by the affair and avoiding associated memories.  This, and avoiding intimacy, which I guess are one and the same thing.

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« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2015, 08:57:28 AM »

I believe my exgf witheld sex purely because she wasnt attracted to me anymore. She used to pull away from my touch as if I was something disgusting. Whether this was down to guilt I dont know and dint care anymore.
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« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2015, 09:06:11 AM »

I noticed towards the end sex became mechanical like he was detaching slowly to the point where there was no physical contact besides the necassarry parts like masterbating on someone else's body. My apologies if that us tmi.
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« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2015, 09:09:17 AM »

And maybe they think we are weak for wanting or needing sex or physical touch, like we are beneath them.
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« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2015, 09:34:47 AM »

My wife too was used and manipulated by a person that we now realise is a psychopath/sociopath.  This in its self has left a lot of scars.

Yes, leave scars that require the help of a professional. Unfortunately for us, the guy my BPDw had an affair with was a psychologist. He knew she was manic and knew what do do and say to get what he wanted. She needs therapy, but does not trust them as a whole.  

To further complicate things, she’s now planning to change anti-psychotics, to one that causes less weight gain – so I could have further hell in store.

Med changes can be problematic. Keep a close eye on her and do not be afraid to call her psychiatrist if you see any behavior which may dangerous.

In my case, I often feel that it’s being with-held, because of a deep seated shame; that relates to the damage caused by the affair and avoiding associated memories.  This, and avoiding intimacy, which I guess are one and the same thing.

Yes, this could be a part of it. Our sex life came to a roaring end about this time last year. She says it is because she is ashamed of being promiscuous before we met, but I think lingering shame over the affair is part of it, as well.
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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2015, 11:06:54 AM »

My wife too was used and manipulated by a person that we now realise is a psychopath/sociopath.  This in its self has left a lot of scars.

Yes, leave scars that require the help of a professional. Unfortunately for us, the guy my BPDw had an affair with was a psychologist. He knew she was manic and knew what do do and say to get what he wanted. She needs therapy, but does not trust them as a whole.  

To further complicate things, she’s now planning to change anti-psychotics, to one that causes less weight gain – so I could have further hell in store.

Med changes can be problematic. Keep a close eye on her and do not be afraid to call her psychiatrist if you see any behavior which may dangerous.

In my case, I often feel that it’s being with-held, because of a deep seated shame; that relates to the damage caused by the affair and avoiding associated memories.  This, and avoiding intimacy, which I guess are one and the same thing.

Yes, this could be a part of it. Our sex life came to a roaring end about this time last year. She says it is because she is ashamed of being promiscuous before we met, but I think lingering shame over the affair is part of it, as well.

Some good advice - thanks.

A psychologist.  That’s very low, considering that it’s a profession that can involve working with some of society’s most vulnerable people, and supposedly requires a high standard of professional integrity.  Not to mention a knowledge of mental health conditions and behaviours.

My BPDw was involved with a window cleaner - clichéd I know and pathetically laughable.  A role that involves no police checks, but provides access to people’s houses and lots of home-alone females.

Some roles are naturally appealing to those with  a predisposition to predatory  behaviour, even those which are seemingly caring roles.

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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2015, 01:30:28 PM »

My wife too was used and manipulated by a person that we now realise is a psychopath/sociopath.  This in its self has left a lot of scars.

Yes, leave scars that require the help of a professional. Unfortunately for us, the guy my BPDw had an affair with was a psychologist. He knew she was manic and knew what do do and say to get what he wanted. She needs therapy, but does not trust them as a whole.  

Before I met my partner her previous marriage broke down because she had a long standing affair with her psychiatrist who was supposed to be helping her recover from a breakdown. He experimented with drugs on her which kick started her endless med addictions. He finally dumped her for another BPD patient.

He got busted for it twice and suspended twice

www.theage.com.au/news/national/doctor-banned-for-patient-love-affairs/2006/11/28/1164476205161.html The details are far more extented and lasted lonmger than came to light in the case.

It can happen, which is why many Ts who deal with BPD patients often undergo T themselves to keep them grounded as pwBPD can idealize and seduce people very easily.
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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2015, 01:51:21 PM »

Before I met my partner her previous marriage broke down because she had a long standing affair with her psychiatrist who was supposed to be helping her recover from a breakdown. He experimented with drugs on her which kick started her endless med addictions. He finally dumped her for another BPD patient.

He got busted for it twice and suspended twice

www.theage.com.au/news/national/doctor-banned-for-patient-love-affairs/2006/11/28/1164476205161.html The details are far more extented and lasted lonmger than came to light in the case.

It can happen, which is why many Ts who deal with BPD patients often undergo T themselves to keep them grounded as pwBPD can idealize and seduce people very easily.

In our case, it came to light he was engaged and seeing two other women at the same time as my wife. I never met them, but I am willing to bet they were bipolar, BPD, low self esteem, or had other similar traits this predator could use to his advantage.

Since he was not wife's T, there were no official actions that could be taken. Some anonymous person with good investigative skills gathered up all this information and sent it to the school district where he was a school counselor. They did not renew his contract and he has had problems finding work ever since.     
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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2015, 03:46:31 AM »

Before I met my partner her previous marriage broke down because she had a long standing affair with her psychiatrist who was supposed to be helping her recover from a breakdown. He experimented with drugs on her which kick started her endless med addictions. He finally dumped her for another BPD patient.

He got busted for it twice and suspended twice

www.theage.com.au/news/national/doctor-banned-for-patient-love-affairs/2006/11/28/1164476205161.html The details are far more extented and lasted lonmger than came to light in the case.

It can happen, which is why many Ts who deal with BPD patients often undergo T themselves to keep them grounded as pwBPD can idealize and seduce people very easily.

In our case, it came to light he was engaged and seeing two other women at the same time as my wife. I never met them, but I am willing to bet they were bipolar, BPD, low self esteem, or had other similar traits this predator could use to his advantage.

Since he was not wife's T, there were no official actions that could be taken. Some anonymous person with good investigative skills gathered up all this information and sent it to the school district where he was a school counselor. They did not renew his contract and he has had problems finding work ever since.     

Unfortunately I’m not surprised that predator types work in these roles.  Hopefully they’ll get what’s coming to them in the end.

In our case, we reported the window cleaner to the police, as it transpired that he’d taken advantage of my BPDw in the first instance, when she was intoxicated with 2 x bottles of wine and a high dose combination of diazepam and zopiclone.  He was stone cold sober.  This and an incident of indecent assault, which he carried out; in my house, when my children were just outside.

Though he was interviewed by the police, they said that they were unable to pursue the case, due to a lack of evidence.

That was a bitter pill to swallow.

It seems to me, that with even the slightest hint of a vulnerable women the predators come out of the woodwork.  Having said that, they were probably always there, it’s just that we didn’t see them before.

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Relationship status: married 8 yrs, together 16yrs
Posts: 7405


If YOU don't change, things will stay the same


« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2015, 04:26:54 PM »

The irony is that pwBPD can be both predators and easy pray for predators who use the same tricks, as they actually believe their own "tricks' when they use them themselves.

This is linked to self belief in their own delusions and fantasies.

We all know if something sounds too good to be true it probably is untrue. pwBPD hold the opposite belief. Hence are easily sold something that is in alignment with their own fantasies and impulses.
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