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Author Topic: Sigh. It's either watch him have a fling or end it  (Read 1760 times)
Haye
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« on: January 10, 2015, 07:41:51 AM »

First time in a long time I'm seriously considering if I'm truly able to keep up with this r/s  :'(

We're going through a massive push-part which has resulted him finding some new ladies online, meeting two of them and wanting to continue meeting her. He claims to be interested in her "just as friends" but did admit that in life, anything can happen. He dissociated to a bit different side of himself some three weeks ago, after a backflash triggered out of nowhere. The one that is deeply in love with me is missing and I have this guy that can say that yeah he doesn't want me out of his life and knows i mean a lot to him. But i'm distant to him, now, and new opportunities calling loudly.

He has talked with his T and she said that the dissociating is understandable (after a backlash) and so is starting a new relationship after that. But er what kind of comment is that? Yeah it's understandable all right, I know that much, but it doesn't make it  okey or to go away. :'( I don't think it's good for either one of us (probably not even to that new girl, either).  

We've talked about this and he knows how i feel, but says he really cannot relate to what i'm saying. Not at all. It's like in theory he knows something like this upsets a person and he apologized for making me sad but that's it. Even thanked me for being with him this long etc and said that he doesn't understand why I have put up with what he does this long.

He's aware that he is pushing me away and knows that it's something he does to the people who are important to him but doesn't seem to want to stop that. I know he wishes me somehow to stay where I am and allow him to explore freely, whatever happens.  

I have this urge to say that well if that new girl is so interesting, why don't you back your bag and go be with her.

I know this is a cycle and it will change again at some point. But it could be weeks or up to half a year. I told him I'm not ok with just watching him having a fling and patiently waiting to see what happens. I've seen these cycles before, i've been dumped and recycled and have told him that that's a boundary I simply have to maintain to maintain my sanity.

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MaybeSo
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2015, 01:26:41 PM »

One way to think about this….

Validate yourself:

This is too painful and is out of alignment with my own values, I will need to create distance if you are going to continue to take this action.  [/i]

(By the way….”endings" are part of a process.  I think we get too caught up in our own black and white thinking and get panicked that this is THE END or this is THE ONE etc., when it’s really just all one long process that has a lot of openings and closings all along the way. This may be an ending for now. Boundaries do initiate endings.  Sometimes it initiates the ending of something dysfunctional making room over time for something more functional to emerge.  There has to be endings if people are ever to grow.)

Validate him:  I understand that you feel you need to take this action and will continue to do so for your own reasons.

There are so many great things about validation, but one of the things that it does, is put ownership squarely in the owners lap.  Arguing or trying to change or convince someone that they are wrong or need to change because they are hurting us or themselves…immediately distracts from ownership and invites tons of projection and distraction that muddies the water.
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sweetheart
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2015, 02:33:09 PM »

Hello Haye,

I'm sorry that this is happening to you at the moment, I can relate, maybe not with the infidelity, but with yet another cycle of my h wants and needs jarring with my own emotional values.

I'm going to cut and paste MayBeSo advice to you about validating yourself. I'm scared of an ending, because I know it will be me that has to end it and I'm scared, and that has left me open to exposing myself to emotional pain and abuse I never thought I would have done.

I hope you find a way to protect yourself from any future hurt because we are all worth more than that.

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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2015, 02:40:09 PM »

Yes, ending it is scary because of the possibility that they may get angry and retaliate.

I think it is a great post, MaybeSo. Don't be as concerned with what the other person might do than your own values. Can you live with this or not?
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2015, 03:39:37 PM »

Hi,

I've had this happen to me a couple of times. The first time was when I was in my mid twenties. And, again, more recently. It's been a long time since the first experience of mine.

I keep this quote, from a Charles DeLint book, on my phone, as a reminder;

"I will not let anyone have power over me. Not ever again. I refuse to believe it."

This quote is from a character that had been abused. In my opinion, expecting someone to sit on the sidelines and watch behavior from your partner, such as you've described, is abusive. I wouldn't say that to your partner, yet it's still my view of it. I tolerated it for over six months with my wife. I'll never do that again. It's not a good thing to do for one's self. I no longer wait for people to change their minds. I go and do my own thing. Because, being in limbo is too hard on my heart.

Hang in there. Don't let anyone mess with your heart or head.
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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2015, 04:26:46 PM »

I don't necessarily close myself off to the possibility of anything happening ever again, with a current or ex partner. Unless they push past my own personal limit of forgiveness. (Which has happened more than once). Yet, I also don't sit and wait around. I open myself up to doing my own thing. And, if I meet other people, I'll open up to that too. Good things come to those that open themselves up to them.

"Action brings good fortune" - Syd Barrett
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2015, 08:06:15 PM »

I know this is a cycle and it will change again at some point. But it could be weeks or up to half a year. I told him I'm not ok with just watching him having a fling and patiently waiting to see what happens. I've seen these cycles before, i've been dumped and recycled and have told him that that's a boundary I simply have to maintain to maintain my sanity.

If its a boundary what is the matching action to protect this boundary, otherwise it is a demand not a boundary

I have this urge to say that well if that new girl is so interesting, why don't you back your bag and go be with her.

Have you considered your bags for as long as it takes as a boundary consequence?

Wishful thinking and negotiations will get you nowhere
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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2015, 09:42:48 PM »

I know this is a cycle and it will change again at some point. But it could be weeks or up to half a year. I told him I'm not ok with just watching him having a fling and patiently waiting to see what happens. I've seen these cycles before, i've been dumped and recycled and have told him that that's a boundary I simply have to maintain to maintain my sanity.

It's a valid point, IMHO. I have this paradox in my own situation. On one hand, I think exactly as you say, it's just a cycle. On the other hand, infidelity is not at all my value, and it affects me negatively. So what gives?

I end up enforcing a boundary when I get the feeling that there is nothing I can say that will bring her back to the person I chose, who says she loves me and doesn't want to leave me. To my understanding, there is the 'splitting thing in her mind', the all BLACK is me, and the all WHITE is the new 'friend'. Like she will say things that make no sense, just to make it look like 'we're not really compatible', or I 'should'nt put up that much with her', anything hurtful enough that I will feel like you do ("Why don't you do this with the new girl than?... .".

I have come to set a boundary of 'no competing relationships', like exes, or new 'friends' who are attracted to her. Now I get the 'it's them, it's not me' excuse, while this stuff keeps going on around her. Great progress!...    

But I will go with her to couple's therapy once all this 'static' is under control.

I have to watch on this because it really does eat at my self esteem. In her case, it's an addiction. She's been diagnosed with a sex addiction. She knows all about it and has been in specialized treatment for over a year now. I had to seek my own therapeutic support, and attend a partner's support group. Now I have my own go to trustworthy people, and it's, well, I can manage as long as she's committed to work on that, but not if she starts to slip back into the 'attitude' that I should be putting up with it.

After all, she DID picked me, knowing all along that I am monogamous and that's my values! I always was very clear about that. I did ask her, at one time, which one of the two positions is her values. She said monogamy. Therefore, I apply consistency and enforce boundaries.

Now when I hear that she wants to be 'friends' with me, and feels sexual towards another person, I remind her that it's not her values to go with that. She can, but I can't be a friend with her hurting me and not respecting my values, nor her own values. What would a good friend say?...


But as far as me, having sexual feelings for her?...    We'll see!...

Any thoughts?
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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2015, 09:47:54 PM »

In my opinion, expecting someone to sit on the sidelines and watch behavior from your partner, such as you've described, is abusive.

I agree with that. 
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Haye
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2015, 05:25:06 AM »

Good points, people! A lot to chew on - when a boundary becomes a demand, for example. How what happenend can be seen as abusive. How to validate myself and him, and understand that and ending isn't necessarily ending the relationship. Thank you!

The situation now is that there's a sort of status quo. Seems like he is trying very hard. We've example gone to bed at the same time, instead of him staying up with computer and chatting with her/them. Some SMS's coming, but replying to them briefly (and i don't question who sends them). He spoke about meeting the girl to explain his situation, but if and when that will happen i don't know. I'm surprised how well he has been able to reflect the situation.

We've also talked about the future. He'd like to go back to studying and most he is interested in are far from here. To him it's not a problem but I don't think I'll be able to maintain a long distance relationship with him. Doesn't necessarily mean an end, no, but... .I don't know.
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2015, 02:48:34 PM »

A lot to chew on - when a boundary becomes a demand, for example. How what happenend can be seen as abusive. How to validate myself and him, and understand that and ending isn't necessarily ending the relationship. Thank you!

I think it depends on what you validate with him. For my relationship, I had to accept how my partner's addiction affected me. It's not possible for me to accept the cheating, the infidelity, the deceit. It's not healthy behavior. So I had to really thing very hard about what I liked about this person so much, that I would be willing to bend back with my values. The answer to this question is very personal. It depends a lot on yourself, your relationship, etc... But it's when I started to ask myself the questions you asked and to grapple with 'Is it OK for me to demand fidelity from a pwBPD?', that I had to go through some sort of moral entanglement, and go deeper in myself.

My values are:

- It's OK for me to ask for what I need in an intimate relationship with a consenting adult.

- It's OK for me to desantangle myself from someone with a personality disorder, if I see that the person's behavior does hurt me.

- It's OK for me to care for other people's suffering, even if their suffering I may never completely understand.

When I put these 3 values together in the same pot, I see that I have to come up with a number of nuances and degrees. I have limits. I can push onto some of them, but I have non-negociables.

Once that is clear for myself, than I am responsible to myself.

The 'demands' aspect of a long term relationship are more or less when you state your values and you say 'this is what I can live with; everything outside of that is not what I can live well with'. It's a core need.

For me, tolerating to try to build a sustainable intimate relationship with someone who is not willing to stop their sex or love addiction, is abusive on myself.

However, if I have stated clearly those values from the start to my partner, and if she takes me up as a conscenting adult, every acts of deceit are her responsibility in the abuse. Deceit does not build trust and safety in a relationship.

If, in an attempt to salvage the relationship, I back off from my core values, than I feel like I cheated on myself. It's a self-abandonment.

That would be cause for great concern.


Excerpt
The situation now is that there's a sort of status quo. Seems like he is trying very hard. We've example gone to bed at the same time, instead of him staying up with computer and chatting with her/them. Some SMS's coming, but replying to them briefly (and i don't question who sends them). He spoke about meeting the girl to explain his situation, but if and when that will happen i don't know. I'm surprised how well he has been able to reflect the situation.

I have been through that several times already. I have put up a boundary which includes not contacting former sexual partners. For a while, I felt like my SO, that maybe it's a bit rude and she needed to explain her new situation, so they would not feel (if they were non-monogamous), that she was being rude to them.

Well, it did not go well for us at all. It turned out that some of these past partners, or even some of these new 'friends' are people who do not share the sexual boundaries I have. Many have addictions of their own, i.e. would not let go, even after repeated text messages/phone calls, and meetings at coffeeshop for her to try to clarify the situation. I know there are other ways to do such thing. It's for her to figure that out. For me it came to be about how much of that traffic I am willing to 'wait out'.

Ditto your question.

The rolling over and over of the same issues, over time, and the keeping of the status quo, for me, is not recovery. It's recycling. There too, my partner has to go across her own value paradoxes and decide what she wants to live with in the future.

I will not make plans for the future until I see a clarity of intent and emotional positioning. That's a way to enforce a boundary to myself. Recently I have decided to withdraw from being in contact with her for a period of 30 days, because I see that she is sincere in working at bringing closure with them, but there is too much stuff going on. I have discussed that with her, and she has discussed it with her T. She told me when she was ready to start.

She's still doing the 'splitting', changing her mind rapidly, the same as before my decision though. She tried to call me right the next morning after she agreed on starting the 30 days NC. This is her stuff she's working on. I keep strong with my boundary because I know this is both what I, and her truely need. I am in belief that I am validating her doing this.

But again, it's not the same for everybody. It depends what the two people truely want, and if the pwBPD is working at recovery. And both, I have to conclude. I have to work on my stuff too.



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waverider
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2015, 03:31:34 PM »

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
A lot to chew on - when a boundary becomes a demand, for example. How what happenend can be seen as abusive. How to validate myself and him, and understand that and ending isn't necessarily ending the relationship. Thank you!

I think it depends on what you validate with him. For my relationship, I had to accept how my partner's addiction affected me. It's not possible for me to accept the cheating, the infidelity, the deceit. It's not healthy behavior. So I had to really thing very hard about what I liked about this person so much, that I would be willing to bend back with my values. The answer to this question is very personal. It depends a lot on yourself, your relationship, etc... But it's when I started to ask myself the questions you asked and to grapple with 'Is it OK for me to demand fidelity from a pwBPD?', that I had to go through some sort of moral entanglement, and go deeper in myself.

My values are:

- It's OK for me to ask for what I need in an intimate relationship with a consenting adult.

- It's OK for me to desantangle myself from someone with a personality disorder, if I see that the person's behavior does hurt me.

- It's OK for me to care for other people's suffering, even if their suffering I may never completely understand.

When I put these 3 values together in the same pot, I see that I have to come up with a number of nuances and degrees. I have limits. I can push onto some of them, but I have non-negociables.

Once that is clear for myself, than I am responsible to myself.

The 'demands' aspect of a long term relationship are more or less when you state your values and you say 'this is what I can live with; everything outside of that is not what I can live well with'. It's a core need.

For me, tolerating to try to build a sustainable intimate relationship with someone who is not willing to stop their sex or love addiction, is abusive on myself.

However, if I have stated clearly those values from the start to my partner, and if she takes me up as a conscenting adult, every acts of deceit are her responsibility in the abuse. Deceit does not build trust and safety in a relationship.

If, in an attempt to salvage the relationship, I back off from my core values, than I feel like I cheated on myself. It's a self-abandonment.

That would be cause for great concern.


Excerpt
The situation now is that there's a sort of status quo. Seems like he is trying very hard. We've example gone to bed at the same time, instead of him staying up with computer and chatting with her/them. Some SMS's coming, but replying to them briefly (and i don't question who sends them). He spoke about meeting the girl to explain his situation, but if and when that will happen i don't know. I'm surprised how well he has been able to reflect the situation.

I have been through that several times already. I have put up a boundary which includes not contacting former sexual partners. For a while, I felt like my SO, that maybe it's a bit rude and she needed to explain her new situation, so they would not feel (if they were non-monogamous), that she was being rude to them.

Well, it did not go well for us at all. It turned out that some of these past partners, or even some of these new 'friends' are people who do not share the sexual boundaries I have. Many have addictions of their own, i.e. would not let go, even after repeated text messages/phone calls, and meetings at coffeeshop for her to try to clarify the situation. I know there are other ways to do such thing. It's for her to figure that out. For me it came to be about how much of that traffic I am willing to 'wait out'.

Ditto your question.

The rolling over and over of the same issues, over time, and the keeping of the status quo, for me, is not recovery. It's recycling. There too, my partner has to go across her own value paradoxes and decide what she wants to live with in the future.

I will not make plans for the future until I see a clarity of intent and emotional positioning. That's a way to enforce a boundary to myself. Recently I have decided to withdraw from being in contact with her for a period of 30 days, because I see that she is sincere in working at bringing closure with them, but there is too much stuff going on. I have discussed that with her, and she has discussed it with her T. She told me when she was ready to start.

She's still doing the 'splitting', changing her mind rapidly, the same as before my decision though. She tried to call me right the next morning after she agreed on starting the 30 days NC. This is her stuff she's working on. I keep strong with my boundary because I know this is both what I, and her truely need. I am in belief that I am validating her doing this.

But again, it's not the same for everybody. It depends what the two people truely want, and if the pwBPD is working at recovery. And both, I have to conclude. I have to work on my stuff too.


Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

These are very good points, and well put.

This is the sort of clarity that we are aiming for on the staying board. Not hanging on and surviving. But getting to that place in your mind where you have accepted it is not ever going to be regular relationship, yet the self awareness to know your own mind and what you need to be able to thrive. Your core values indeed.

Finding your core values is not always easy as it is ingrained in most of us to follow a normal accepted pattern of values. We have to work out just what our own values are, not what society has ingrained in us. Our values unique to us, not just to fit in with what others may expect of us.

To determine these values we need to have them challenged, and a BPD relationship certainly does that. It is one of the reasons those that have been through these relationships have in the process found themselves, or drowned in the disorder.

It really is a sink or swim environment
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2015, 05:38:57 PM »

To determine these values we need to have them challenged, and a BPD relationship certainly does that. It is one of the reasons those that have been through these relationships have in the process found themselves, or drowned in the disorder.

It really is a sink or swim environment

Wow! waverider, thank you for that!... .I wouldn't go personally as far as saying that I needed this deep and this rough of a challenge. I have been happy in a 15 years stable, fully monogamous relationship before that one. But whatever I have learned about self-care and self-esteem, it's definitely a time to put it into practice.

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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2015, 06:19:06 PM »

This is the reason most people get through life without ever having to dig within themselves to find out what their core values are, as they are rarely under siege. However, to survive dysfunctional relationships it becomes essential.

If you think back to times prior to this you will probably remember times when you got all worked up about stuff that seems totally trivial in hindsight. It is human nature to get worked up about things from time to time. Perspectives are often lost as we are not thinking of the bigger picture, just reacting to the immediate frustration.

Not being reacting and getting things in perspective before acting (well more than I used to ) is something I have found that has flowed back into all aspects of my life, and greatly enriched it. Its not just a survival tool.
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2015, 07:46:47 PM »

This is the reason most people get through life without ever having to dig within themselves to find out what their core values are, as they are rarely under siege. However, to survive dysfunctional relationships it becomes essential.

I'm thinking about that... I see what you mean here. Totally.

I beleive life does that. It could be anything major happening. Like maybe cancer. Or a disaster in your home town. Or having to start a new life in a different country/culture than your own. Or having an accident and having to learn to walk again. Surviving one of these relationships qualifies for that.

Excerpt
If you think back to times prior to this you will probably remember times when you got all worked up about stuff that seems totally trivial in hindsight. It is human nature to get worked up about things from time to time. Perspectives are often lost as we are not thinking of the bigger picture, just reacting to the immediate frustration.

True.

Excerpt
Not being reacting and getting things in perspective before acting (well more than I used to ) is something I have found that has flowed back into all aspects of my life, and greatly enriched it. Its not just a survival tool.

That,  ... .is not because of the dysfunctional relationship. That's because of you. Of who you are when you faced a big one.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)    Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)    Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2015, 08:29:47 PM »

Excerpt
Quote from: floating on January 10, 2015, 03:39:37 PM

In my opinion, expecting someone to sit on the sidelines and watch behavior from your partner, such as you've described, is abusive.

I agree with that.

People can have whatever expectations they want.  It’s a free world.

For you too.

It would feel abusive to me IF I PARTICIPATED IN cooperating WITH an EXPECTATION that was not in alignment with  my own values.

The expectation in and of itself, is not abusive.  People have a lot of ‘different ideas’ about how to behave in relationships and make requests or have expectations that are different than mine all the time.  I have to take care of my own boundaries.  It’s not someone else’s job to that for me, though I sometimes ask if they can,  and like it when I get cooperation.  Often, I don’t get cooperation…so then it’s all up to me to take care of my own boundaries.

That’s the hard part.  I don’t like some of the tuff decisions and corresponding actions I have to take if I am going to protect my own boundaries.  I may avoid doing that and wait in the sidelines hoping for cooperation from someone who is behaving in a manner I don’t agree with…

if it’s really yucky behavior…it will wear on me and I will start to feel sick. 

The person is just doing their thing.

Is it abuse?  Or am I cooperating with an abusive arrangement for my own complex reasons…one being…it hurts too much to take action on  my own boundary…so I avoid taking action.
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2015, 09:01:45 PM »

Expectation is not abuse. Abuse comes into place when you try forcing compliance with your expectation.

Much like the difference between feelings and actions.

Unreasonable expectations are simply delusions of entitlement
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2015, 10:14:04 PM »

Excerpt
Abuse comes into place when you try forcing compliance with your expectation.

Yes, it can be abusive to try to force compliance from a person. True.

Excerpt
Unreasonable expectations are simply delusions of entitlement

Yup.
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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2015, 12:40:17 AM »

People can have whatever expectations they want.  It’s a free world.

For you too.

It would feel abusive to me IF I PARTICIPATED IN cooperating WITH an EXPECTATION that was not in alignment with  my own values.

The expectation in and of itself, is not abusive.  People have a lot of ‘different ideas’ about how to behave in relationships and make requests or have expectations that are different than mine all the time.  I have to take care of my own boundaries.  It’s not someone else’s job to that for me, though I sometimes ask if they can,  and like it when I get cooperation.  Often, I don’t get cooperation…so then it’s all up to me to take care of my own boundaries.

     I disagree. You are coming from a mathematical, intellectual viewpoint of the situation. We are talking about hearts and emotions. Relationships aren't logical. When I had been married for four months, my wife basically told me that she was going to begin an affair. (Which she had already started). It lasted for about half of a year, resulting in the termination of our marriage when she wouldn't stop. She expected me to sit there and watch. I was a young person, only 23 and didn't know how to handle the situation. I am not the 'I'm Going to Control Your Impulses' type. So, I gave her freedom. In retrospect, I feel that what she expected of me was indeed Abusive.

     Won't be arguing about this. The same totally forgiving attitude towards people's intentions is creeping into all areas of our society. There are certain situations where a person's expectations of another can be abusive. For example, expecting a partner to be okay waiting for you until 4am, while you are out drinking. There are certain things that simply do not take into account another's feelings. That some people have no natural empathy for others, is a real problem. Their lack of empathy doesn't justify their behavior, or their expectations. It's not an a + b = c sort of thing. Especially in relationships, where we are brought so much closer toward affecting others.

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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2015, 01:13:21 AM »

When I had been married for four months, my wife basically told me that she was going to begin an affair. (Which she had already started). It lasted for about half of a year, resulting in the termination of our marriage when she wouldn't stop. She expected me to sit there and watch. I was a young person, only 23 and didn't know how to handle the situation. I am not the 'I'm Going to Control Your Impulses' type. So, I gave her freedom.

You're newlyweds. That's tough to go through. Affairs are painful I'm sorry, I can relate. You were young and she challenged your boundaries, it sounds like you were concerned with controlling someone else and she knew how far she could push your boundaries.

Your post is a good idea and it warrants exploring in a new thread? Take this idea and create an OP.

To determine these values we need to have them challenged, and a BPD relationship certainly does that. It is one of the reasons those that have been through these relationships have in the process found themselves, or drowned in the disorder.

It really is a sink or swim environment

This is so true  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2015, 03:40:58 AM »

I think floating is making an important point relevant to the original post from Haye here, and the subsequent posts.

It would be one think if we encounter our BPD partners and they identify as people who want not to have constraints or expectations about fidelity placed on them.  If we choose to tangle with that with eyes wide open, so be it.

But for a lot of us, that's not how it worked.  The initial presentation was of a person who was intensely committed and very possessive.  There are expectations of fidelity that go along with that presentation and we are not controlling or abusive for having those expectations.

And for someone to present as those they have those values, and then do a bait and switch and start acting completely contrary to the values they appeared to hold, and then invoke the original commitment we pledged to them ... .that CAN be an abusive dynamic.

It's different if we are years and many recycles into these situations and we knowingly walk back in expecting the person to be other than who and how they are.  I agree.  But that doesn't sound like the OP's situation here.
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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2015, 11:30:32 AM »

I think floating is making an important point relevant to the original post from Haye here, and the subsequent posts.

It would be one think if we encounter our BPD partners and they identify as people who want not to have constraints or expectations about fidelity placed on them.  If we choose to tangle with that with eyes wide open, so be it.

But for a lot of us, that's not how it worked.  The initial presentation was of a person who was intensely committed and very possessive.  There are expectations of fidelity that go along with that presentation and we are not controlling or abusive for having those expectations.

And for someone to present as those they have those values, and then do a bait and switch and start acting completely contrary to the values they appeared to hold, and then invoke the original commitment we pledged to them ... .that CAN be an abusive dynamic.

Well said!...   I agree with that. 

Now I think hard into what waverider says, and pwBPD do indeed challenge our boundaries. Yes. OK. But messing up with other people's sexual boundaries is something else.

I am still new to this board and obviously still learning. I am wondering though, if there are long term folks who have succeeded in both partners staying and maintaining fidelity. And how they managed the yucky parts...

And if someone knows about stats on the degree of incidence of infidelity in pwBPD.

--

See, I can under~stand that someone might have difficulties to trust that a partner will want to stay with them if they have difficulties with having the disorder themselves. And of course, the difficulties coming with having to have someone-with-self all the time.

But I don't find it ok when a partner w BPD does pick an openly monogamous/stable person, than does a series of quick turn arounds (for their mysterious reasons), and claims in afterfact that 'they have always done this', and pick play-partners who are just using the language of recovery to instigate sexual betrayal, because those don't believe in recovery. Same with quick emo-replacement partners, who don't beleive in accountability.

That 'attitude' is what is abusive. This way one day, and the complete regrets the next day, as sincere as might be, it does not go without grating on the partner's self-esteem.

People just don't come with a warning sign, and it takes two to tango, I agree, but there is a degree of personal engagement involved with even considering to love a pw PD. So there maybe more nuances needed than saying 'just pick your bags if you're not happy with that'.

@MaybeSo, I didn't feel quite right about reading your words yesterday. I agree with everything you say, as I see a value to your point. And given the context, as patientandclear mentioned, and given my own personal moment right now,  I felt somewhat triggered by reading your response. Maybe you can unwrap this by giving us an example of what you meant. For sure, I don't want to miss a good point.

Excerpt
It would feel abusive to me IF I PARTICIPATED IN cooperating WITH an EXPECTATION that was not in alignment with  my own values.

I liked that part. That made me think some more. If I think about the scenarios I have found myself 'involuntarily subscribed to' since I started to go this recovery road with my partner, well, that's a good point.

To me it means that I have to pull out for a while and see. However, it would be great to hear about how you folks got from that point on to staying, without letting your SO erode your boundaries. In your own words.

Afterall, we all like to be *seen* in this too. I suppose coming to this board is a part of what we are doing for ourselves.





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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2015, 05:09:58 PM »

I think floating is making an important point relevant to the original post from Haye here, and the subsequent posts.

It would be one think if we encounter our BPD partners and they identify as people who want not to have constraints or expectations about fidelity placed on them.  If we choose to tangle with that with eyes wide open, so be it.

But for a lot of us, that's not how it worked.  The initial presentation was of a person who was intensely committed and very possessive. There are expectations of fidelity that go along with that presentation and we are not controlling or abusive for having those expectations.

And for someone to present as those they have those values, and then do a bait and switch and start acting completely contrary to the values they appeared to hold, and then invoke the original commitment we pledged to them ... .that CAN be an abusive dynamic.

 

Looking back, since that's how our relationship began too, I have to ask myself how in the world did I not realize that BOTH of us were a little off? Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)  The thing is, I'm pretty sure subconsciously I did, and that's what was so attractive.  I met my match!  Then came the power struggles... .

Had to tone some of that down a few notches.
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2015, 06:38:43 PM »

Phoebe, are you talking about your intuition you had when you two met?

Are you saying that you felt someting was there, but you could not tell what it was, just later when you looked back, you had that clearer feeling that you both had something 'a little off'?

Extrapolating than, would you say that any of the 3 examples in patient's quote could possibly have a quality of being 'a bit off'?
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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2015, 07:04:16 PM »

Phoebe, are you talking about your intuition you had when you two met?

Are you saying that you felt someting was there, but you could not tell what it was, just later when you looked back, you had that clearer feeling that you both had something 'a little off'?

Extrapolating than, would you say that any of the 3 examples in patient's quote could possibly have a quality of being 'a bit off'?

What I'm saying is that being intensely committed and very possessive early on in a relationship is a big  .  We were instantly attracted to each other.  We met at a party, locked eyes across the room, all that dreamy fairy-tale stuff.  It felt so real, like everything I had ever hoped for!  He came on strong and I responded like a moth to a flame.

That's all fine and dandy until "reality" set in.  One false move and all emotional hell broke loose.  False meaning real.

That beginning had nowhere to go.  It wasn't really real. The attraction itself was real, but we didn't know each other to be staking claims to each other.

So looking back, having actually spent "real time" together, building up to where we are now, yes, I can say that we were both a tad bit off when it all began.

 
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« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2015, 08:16:04 PM »

So looking back, having actually spent "real time" together, building up to where we are now, yes, I can say that we were both a tad bit off when it all began.

So did you end up working on your issues, each one on his/her stuff?

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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2015, 09:25:39 PM »

Haye, back to your situation. This caught my eye.

We've also talked about the future. He'd like to go back to studying and most he is interested in are far from here. To him it's not a problem but I don't think I'll be able to maintain a long distance relationship with him. Doesn't necessarily mean an end, no, but... .I don't know.

Do you say this because you simply do not want a long distance r/s with him?

Or do you mean that you won't be able to trust hm to be faithful if it is a LDR?
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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2015, 10:59:52 AM »

Do you say this because you simply do not want a long distance r/s with him?

Or do you mean that you won't be able to trust hm to be faithful if it is a LDR?

I think it's sort of both. First of all, yes, I don't trust him to be faithful if in a LDR – I basically trust him to have a fling after another (girls just fall on his feet where ever he goes, it's like magic). I think I might even life with him having just meaningless sex but that's not his thing - he gets very tangled with those girls, going steady immediately, being totally into the new girl (or three  ).    The Object Constancy is really big problem to him, people just cease to exist if they are not around. Takes only couple of days to happen . It does depend a bit on what part of cycle is going on, but if he is mentally distant from me (in a push-mode) AND physically somewhere else... .Yeah well. Not good. He himself thinks LDR would work fine, as he has had many LDR's before, but then again that has allowed him to have more than one relationship going on and breaking hearts in serial way.

As for now. Things are... .Difficult. We've discussed and both know this is likely to be just a part of a cycle. But it doesn't help much. He is slightly saddened to see me unhappy, even offered he could act the way he behaves while in the other end of the cycle. I said thanks, but no thanks, I value honesty. He also said he wants me to hate him, hate him hard, so much that i would not want to see or hear of him ever again (so he could kill himself, knowing what he did to me and knowing nobody would care anymore). I said sorry, i don't do the hating. I might have to end our relationship to keep what ever is left of my sanity, but I know it'll take me long time to stop loving him and I doubt i'll ever stop caring.

It's a lonely thing. Outside this forum I can't talk to anyone else about this. I mean there's few people I probably could pour my heart out, but they won't really understand. I'm not sure I really understand.
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« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2015, 04:20:46 PM »

Is he aware of this lack of object consistency?

Do you think LDRs make less of an issue (even excuse) of this lack of object consistency?
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« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2015, 02:24:54 AM »

Is he aware of this lack of object consistency?

Do you think LDRs make less of an issue (even excuse) of this lack of object consistency?

He is aware of it yes. When in closer state of mind he worries about it if we are to be apart for more than a day or two. Once he went to a week long holiday and packed my scarf with him, so he could sniff it occasionally. Says my scent helps him to keep the connection alive, like keeping a memory fresh, or something like that. But says it's probelmatic too, as it can also make missing me worse, trigger feelings of abandoned.

I've understood LDR's are easier for him as he can control the amount of time he gives to someone. With LDR he can be as distant mentally as he feels like. When living together he sees me everyday and now that he is distancing himself he is face to face with me trying to cope with the situation (I wish I was better with this, but i'm not). If we were in a DLR he could just skip thinking what I feel and remember my existence when it is good for him. When in LDR and distant mentally, his friends and loved ones exist in the background, but are not close to him.

I guess part of what looks like a constancy problem it is him being dissociative. He says there's like a vail or a shadow between him and other people. I might be in the same room, or even in his arms and hugged by him and yet he feels far from me, lurking in the shadows.
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