Sigh. It's either watch him have a fling or end it

[braveSun]

I don't trust him to be faithful if in a LDR – I basically trust him to have a fling after another (girls just fall on his feet where ever he goes, it's like magic). I think I might even life with him having just meaningless sex but that's not his thing - he gets very tangled with those girls, going steady immediately, being totally into the new girl (or three  ).

Did you discuss with him the possibility that he might have a sex or love addiction?

I might have to end our relationship to keep what ever is left of my sanity, but I know it'll take me long time to stop loving him and I doubt i'll ever stop caring.

Do you have the possibility to get therapeutic support for yourself?

For me, even if it was not for an extended period, it was immensely beneficial.

It's a lonely thing. Outside this forum I can't talk to anyone else about this. I mean there's few people I probably could pour my heart out, but they won't really understand. I'm not sure I really understand.

Totally!...    I know what it feels like...

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaybeSo]

Sorry so long in responding.  This is about boundaries and self-care.  I think it is apropos of the thread's topic.

Quote from: MaybeSo on January 12, 2015, 08:29:47 PM

People can have whatever expectations they want.  It’s a free world.

For you too.

It would feel abusive to me IF I PARTICIPATED IN cooperating WITH an EXPECTATION that was not in alignment with  my own values.

The expectation in and of itself, is not abusive.  People have a lot of ‘different ideas’ about how to behave in relationships and make requests or have expectations that are different than mine all the time.  I have to take care of my own boundaries.  It’s not someone else’s job to that for me, though I sometimes ask if they can,  and like it when I get cooperation.  Often, I don’t get cooperation…so then it’s all up to me to take care of my own boundaries.

   

  I disagree. You are coming from a mathematical, intellectual viewpoint of the situation. We are talking about hearts and emotions. Relationships aren't logical. When I had been married for four months, my wife basically told me that she was going to begin an affair. (Which she had already started). It lasted for about half of a year, resulting in the termination of our marriage when she wouldn't stop. She expected me to sit there and watch. I was a young person, only 23 and didn't know how to handle the situation. I am not the 'I'm Going to Control Your Impulses' type. So, I gave her freedom. In retrospect, I feel that what she expected of me was indeed Abusive.

     Won't be arguing about this. The same totally forgiving attitude towards people's intentions is creeping into all areas of our society. There are certain situations where a person's expectations of another can be abusive. For example, expecting a partner to be okay waiting for you until 4am, while you are out drinking. There are certain things that simply do not take into account another's feelings. That some people have no natural empathy for others, is a real problem. Their lack of empathy doesn't justify their behavior, or their expectations. It's not an a + b = c sort of thing. Especially in relationships, where we are brought so much closer toward affecting others.

My posts tend toward stimulating curiosity about self empowerment and responsibility for personal boundaries. Along with radical acceptance of what 'is' not what I wish it were like.  I tend to move in that direction with my posts, b/c I spent 4-5 years posting about my partner's behavior and was miserable and confused the entire time.  Not that there isn't a place for curiosity and a learning curve about mental health issues.  When I stopped the focus on my partners behavior, and turned my attention to my own behaviors, I finally began to find some relief from my suffering. Over time, I got myself back again.  And it feels good. That was a crazy ride, let me tell you.

So, there is nothing mathematical or impersonal about  my observation or experience. My apologies if it appeared that way from my post.  My statement that a person can have whatever expectations they want is true, not because I like it or because I say so, or because I am impervious to other's behaviors... .and not even because I agree or tolerate all behaviors unconditionally or have a woo-woo attitude toward forgiveness... .I made the statement that people can do what they want... .because it's just true... .indeed, people can DO pretty much whatever they want.  I am in no way implying that a person's behavior shouldn't have consequences.  That's the whole point.  There should be consequences.  People get hurt, people feel used, abused, misinformed, deceived, misguided, duped, I could go and on with adjectives we might feel based on other's actions.  People can STILL have whatever expectations they want, or behave however they want.  We hope most people in our lives would choose not to continue to behave in a hurtful manner, but the fact is, some people we meet will continue to behave as they behave regardless of outcome or feelings.  This tends to be common with certain disorders. It happens all the time.  Doesn't mean I like it or agree with it... .but a lot goes on in the world regardless of how I feel about it. That's also a fact.   If it is abusive or hurting ME, their behavior is providing me information that I have to then act on the best way I can.  That's part of taking care of my own boundary. Because someone else can't be relied upon to take care of it for me.  I can ask for cooperation, but if I don't get it, it really is up to  me.  If I ask a person to please stop a behavior, and they don't... .that's further information for me and it helps me to make further informed decisions about my own self-care.  Not without some pain!  Often some very painful experiences inform painful decisions... .this is  true. There's no getting around that.   There is no mathematics here.  I have five years of pain ridden posts.  I have intimate understanding that these relationships can be shockingly painful. That is a given. Now what? We still have to take care of our own boundaries and be in touch with our decisions based on our own values.

@MaybeSo, I didn't feel quite right about reading your words yesterday. I agree with everything you say, as I see a value to your point. And given the context, as patientandclear mentioned, and given my own personal moment right now,  I felt somewhat triggered by reading your response. Maybe you can unwrap this by giving us an example of what you meant. For sure, I don't want to miss a good point.

I'm sorry you were triggered.  My comments are meant to stimulate further reflection on self, as the stuff outside of us is not in our control.

It would feel abusive to me IF I PARTICIPATED IN cooperating WITH an EXPECTATION that was not in alignment with  my own values.

I liked that part. That made me think some more. If I think about the scenarios I have found myself 'involuntarily subscribed to' since I started to go this recovery road with my partner, well, that's a good point.

I'm glad this made sense, though it might not to everyone. That's fine.  I used the word "I".  That's was how I would feel, I do understand that others have different feelings and different experiences than I do. That too is a given. The fact is, I have cooperated at times with things that felt painfully out of alignment with my own values, and sometimes got very angry with the person I was cooperating with... .when I really just needed to take better care of myself, and not try so hard to analyze or fix or control someone elses differing or ever-changing values. My values are the only values I have any control over.

None of this is easy.

From Waverider... .

Finding your core values is not always easy as it is ingrained in most of us to follow a normal accepted pattern of values. We have to work out just what our own values are, not what society has ingrained in us. Our values unique to us, not just to fit in with what others may expect of us.

To determine these values we need to have them challenged, and a BPD relationship certainly does that. It is one of the reasons those that have been through these relationships have in the process found themselves, or drowned in the disorder.

Very true.

[Haye]

Going back a bit (cutting some)

The initial presentation was of a person who was intensely committed and very possessive.  There are expectations of fidelity that go along with that presentation and we are not controlling or abusive for having those expectations.

//... .do a bait and switch and start acting completely contrary to the values they appeared to hold, // But that doesn't sound like the OP's situation here.

Unlike some of you, we didn't start as intensily committed and possessive. Nor the burning desire or him devoting me as I've heard many cases here have. We started very loose and free, we were something like working collegues. I wasn't doing wquite ell then, had just lost my father and he started to take care of me (and my kids). Talking, listening, cooking for me etc. All of a sudden I had a person in my life who was dedicated in healing me, making me feel better. I did see a tiny red flag, realized right in the beginning on that my softspoken and gently new friend carries a huge load himself but didn't worry much as people tend to have all kinds of baggages. We started to trust oneanother and opening up, etc. (no sex or a relationship other than just friends, though i was developing a major crush without even realizing it). He had some LDR's then, seemed loose, didn't mind as we were friends. To cut a lot of details let's just say that I began to see the bad sides, the ones he tries to hide from anyone else. I loved the fact he found me interesting and lovely when I was at my worst – seeing me exactly as I was and still liking the picture.

Did you discuss with him the possibility that he might have a sex or love addiction?

I've tried to mention, but he claims there is no pattern like that. It isn't a sex addiction, that I know, as sex is difficult for him due traumas. I believe he is somehow addicted to the way he gets women to open up to him. Because that's what he does. He feels lonely himself, or bored, or whatever and finds girls or women ieither IRL or online. The ones who aren't doing well mentally – depressed, suicidal, traumatized, social phobiacs, all kinds (did try once a schiczophrenic but said that was too weird). He listens to them, helps them, nurtures them... .wins their trust. And at some point, usually when they are madly in love something happens. He changes. Looses interest, becomes cold, distant, even a bit cruel.

Sometimes this is clearly dissociative, seems like sex or love triggers the bad side out.

[patientandclear]

Sounds a lot like my ex (addicted to getting women to open up to him), though we did start with love bombing and this pattern was well-concealed from me. He acted like he'd been alone for a long time. Took me a while to grasp that alone meant "I ended all the other relationships."

Anyway, the thrust of most of the comments here has been: don't expect people to be other than who they are, once you find out what that is. Is this habit of engaging other women emotionally something you can tolerate?

[MaybeSo]

I believe he is somehow addicted to the way he gets women to open up to him. Because that's what he does. He feels lonely himself, or bored, or whatever and finds girls or women ieither IRL or online. The ones who aren't doing well mentally – depressed, suicidal, traumatized, social phobiacs, all kinds (did try once a schiczophrenic but said that was too weird). He listens to them, helps them, nurtures them... .wins their trust. And at some point, usually when they are madly in love something happens. He changes. Looses interest, becomes cold, distant, even a bit cruel.

Sometimes this is clearly dissociative, seems like sex or love triggers the bad side out.

This is very similar in pattern to the person in my life, too.

I would broadly look at it as love addiction. 

I am pretty sure until the last 10-15 years, the person in my life had no clue that his behavior stimulated strong attachment responses in women and often left them very very hurt.  Like an addict, he was ‘using’ to manage his own emptiness and dysregulated states and when you are basically nice during the upswing of use…if anything, he seemed to think he was a really really nice guy…and if anything…when the drug wore off as intimacy settled in, and he goes cold and wanders off …he didn’t get it at all that the angry, hurt reaction from women had anything to do with HIS behavior at all.  In fact, HE felt like the victim of the woman’s anger.  He thought HE was this guy who does so much for others and is so kind and wonderful and that HE usually ends getting the short end of the stick. This mirrors the feel of his relationship with his mother.  It is very difficult for him to keep it in his mind that women fall in love with him and find his sudden cold withdrawal to be horribly confusing and horribly painful.  Until he had that experience with me and was in therapy at the same time…he never connected the dots between his behavior and the resulting angry women at all.  It fit too closely into his own schema and cellular expectation that HE is the victim, always. I think in the last 10 years he has at least grown to connect the dots in therapy but can’t ‘hold the picture in his mind’ at all times…but I think he struggles to stay away from women to a degree now…b/c he knows more about what is going on and his part in it…he knows even through it’s going to be wonderful at first…that he hurts people.  I think having that knowledge now…does concern him. But he is an addict.  How he will ultimately choose to handle his addiction is up to him.  I can’t do anything about another person’s addiction.  One of the reason’s I don’t view his behavior as abuse anymore, is because I do not believe his intent was ever to hurt people.   Hurt people hurt people.  That’s how it works.

That doesn’t mean I wasn’t suffering horribly through a emotionally abusive relationship when I was in the middle of it and had no clue what was going on.  I kept thinking…this is the weirdest behavior, I’ve never in my life seen a man act this way before…what is this? He must be a monster to do this!  Much later, I realized, his patterns actually are not dissimilar at all from my father’s behavior for years.  I hate to keep proving Freud right, but, there you go.

[Grey Kitty]

I am pretty sure until the last 10-15 years, the person in my life had no clue that his behavior stimulated strong attachment responses in women and often left them very very hurt.  Like an addict, he was ‘using’ to manage his own emptiness and dysregulated states and when you are basically nice during the upswing of use…if anything, he seemed to think he was a really really nice guy…and if anything…when the drug wore off as intimacy settled in, and he goes cold and wanders off …he didn’t get it at all that the angry, hurt reaction from women had anything to do with HIS behavior at all.

THIS.

I'm starting to see something in my wife, at least over the last decade or so that shows a similar pattern without apparent awareness.

Her version is that she flirts / broadcasts interest / intimacy to a LOT of guys (besides me).

Eventually, a guy is shows interest in her (Sometimes mostly emotional, often more sexual). She honestly seems gobsmacked at the reaction/response. She claims she doesn't know what to do with it, that she doesn't know what the guy wants with her, or where it is going. Often she also claims she isn't particularly interested in him, or that she is just a friend with him. And while making that claim, she continues to feed his interest in her, continues to give him attention, flirt, etc.

Typically they turn into some sort of relationship, and the ending isn't a predictable blowup or even a predictable pattern. Other than that she doesn't want any of this to end her marriage to me.

I'm the participating, I'm feeling betrayed, and getting hurt. (And trying to look hard in the mirror.)

MaybeSo, does her behavior sound like a similar sort of love addiction to you?

[MaybeSo]

I think the more I study about human attachment, I can see how easily the arena of attachment aka love or exchange of energy or whatever you want to call it, is rife to become a seat of addiction for so many of us. Love, attachment, one of the basic human needs, like food or water…becomes a dependency.  Further, it’s not having the right kind of attachment in the early years of life, or at the far end of the spectrum attachment mingled with abuse... that sets people up for addiction.  

We know attachment with a secure caregiver is where we first experiment with our own emotional regulation…it is through connection with a regulated caregiver that we learn to regulate ourselves and get a sense of self. We know this from studies on infant attachment since the 1950s.  We can predict a child’s attachment style to a parent with 75% accuracy from the Adult Attachment Interview conducted while the couple is pregnant.  We know how important early attachment is!  With certain disruptions in attachment in infancy,  a person will have painful, unregulated states and the instinct is to find a person who will help us to regulate our nervous system but not in a healthy way, more like a drug, there’s a dependency... that’s what a baby does to regulate mood…through the gaze of another, through the energy exchange that goes on between two people, that’s how we are wired.   Add in the sex drive later, and well, ya, it gets complicated, doesn’t it?  Attachment, love, it’s all necessary. That’s how people become whole people, gain a sense of ‘self’ , gain object constancy, begin to regulate our own moods. Those developmental steps do not occur if it get’s interrupted…we need someone helping us to do that through our attachment system with a caregiver’s attachment system in the first year and ongoing.  If that get’s interrupted or damaged…if getting close to a caregiver doesn’t provide regulation but anxiety, unpredictability and in the worst case, terror and disorganization…then we continue to look outside ourselves to regulate our emotional states and get a sense of self (dependency) and we are paradoxically triggered by our source of regulation and safety. The worst symptoms of BPD mirrors a baby with a disorganized attachment system.  Babies with disorganized attachment tend to dissociate a lot, too.  It is a complicated developmental system that can get interrupted at anytime along the way.  But I can easily see how in addition to drugs and alcohol and shopping and food etc.…how a human being can use their own and other’s attachment systems as a kind of dependency source. Just like a drug.  That’s why Patrick Carnes book on sex addiction is titled Don’t Call It Love.  It’s not healthy, grown-up love…it is using the attachment system of self and others as a ‘fix’.  It’s not done to hurt people, anymore than an addict drinks with the intention to hurt others…they drink to medicate pain, emptiness, anxiety, depression…all the symptoms of unmet attachment needs.  :)evelopmentally to become an adult and whole and healthy we are to move beyond that and exchange energy with others in healthy, mutually satisfying ways.  It can be very confusing to the person who suffers with this, and of course confusing and painful to those they try to attach to, b/c it can look very normal until it begins to feel sick or until someone gets hurt over and over again. We don’t think someone with an eating disorder is sick when we share a meal with them, but if we catch them in kitchen later binging and purging…then we think WOW…something is seriously wrong here.  

When we get hooked into this, it says something about our own unmet attachment needs, too.  We know that tons of people never get addicted to drugs, for example, but some due.  Genetic loading and a deficit or unmet need that has been there all along suddenly gets met and BAM…we are hooked.  It seems when there’s been a deficit somewhere there, a wound, a hold, a sore spot, or in some cases our own attachment disorder…that the fix gets triggered and pump is primed for addiction.  I think I was in an addictive process myself during the worst of experience with my partner.  What a painful and frightening place to be. That’s why turning you attention to yourself and a one day at at time mentality, and really accepting you have no control over others… is the path out of the woods.  That is not to say anyone might not get their attachment system activated by a wounded person and get very wounded themselves, and need to really go through a healing process to get better. I have seen a few people be on this board for just a could of months, sound really healthy and clear this was not a healthy relationship, grieve on the leaving board, and move on. But that rarely happens.  Usually we are here a long time suffering.  When you feel like you can’t let go of something really bad for you…and that goes on for a long long long time and it starts impacting your life in a big way…that’s an addiction IMHO. That is not love.  You can get better. I don’t think I’m in an addictive process with the person in my life anymore who has BPD traits.  I think he and I see each other much more clearly than we did during our first years together and take care of ourselves better.  But I also know I have some wounds that make me susceptible to certain kinds of interactions and romantic scenarios so I have to be on top of that for myself always.

I like the way Stan Tatkin puts it (psychobiological approach to couples therapy)  Almost no one in the arena of attachment and love is doing anything purposefully. We make a huge mistake in projecting reasons and stories onto another about why they behave a certain way romantically or in attachment settings.

The story is almost never what is really happening.   That’s why good therapists don’t get too caught up or attached to the details of the story. They will validate your and you will feel heard…but they don’t get hooked into the story.

My partner and I had two very conflicting stories with years of anecdotal evidence about what he did that was awful and hurtful... .what I did that was awful and hurtful…he’s this, she’s that…bla bla bla bla…on and on the stories go.

If I saw me and my partner in therapy today… I’d assess as follows:

Her: anxious attachment style, dependency issues being triggered by partner / intimacy

Him: avoidant attachment style leaning disorganized under stress;  untreated mood disorder

       dependency issues being triggered by partner / intimacy

These two haven’t a CLUE about how they are inadvertently (without awareness) re-traumatizing each other over and over again and haven’t a clue how and why their natural attachment styles are immensely triggering to each other. [/i]

-Chances for improvement would depend heavily on their ability, willingness and motivation to stop looking outside of themselves (including blaming each other) for the answers or as a way to fix their own dysregulated emotional states and dependency needs.

-Neither one of us are bad people, neither of have has a goal to hurt each other or anyone else. (yes either of us might intentionally be nasty in the middle of a fight or take action to punish the other if we felt we had been punished or harmed)…but neither of us as a person has any desire or goal to hurt anyone or give someone a bad time romantically.  I believe that is true for him and for me, both.  I think that is likely true for most of the people on this board.  There are always acceptions, but I believe that is true most of the time.

[braveSun]

Wow! MaybeSo, GK and patient, thank you for sharing your inputs into this.

It speaks to me very much. 

ADDICTION is the ANTIDOTE to INTIMACY

—

That’s interesting because I sense that when I have what I call this ‘natural boundary’ of fidelity in a monogamous relationship, I refer to this blurred background felt experience for myself that this is the grounds I can let myself open up into. Where I feel safe enough to feel loved and to grow my love for someone. Where I can trust.

In this relationship, I felt that there was this potential, but I also knew that there was a lot of work needed. For both of us. From the start. Having work to do for my own never bothered me. It’s either this way or another. Thus the desire to stay admist the challenges, and the loving feelings found at the onset of small victories. Rewards.

What is strange and interesting at once, is that I see that I have developed the ‘avoidance’ undesirable traits. To my understanding, it has to do with the unstability of the bound. The rapid cycling of switching between one landscape and another, both radically opposite. I cannot ‘land’. Sometimes I think I develop those traits as a responsive way ‘to be with’ my BPD partner. Like in ‘going there with her’, ‘feeling this with her’. Going east, going west, going back east again, and than west again, I get exhausted. I need a break. I sort of trust her, but I still cannot ‘land’.

One thing I had to learn to do is to recognize when I go to shame. Automatically, so to speak. I know that it’s a part of being sexual boundary-busted. I did not sign up for the scenario. I met someone who did not want that either. I actually believe that. So I waited for her to ‘get to it’. I met something which reveals that as a human being, I can get hurt. I’m not invincible, and the others are not there to protect and nourish me.

I understand the idea of people becoming addicted while having hurtful experiences with a pwPD. It’s a good process concept. If the BPD mate is not working on breaking the cycles of unhealthy coping behaviors, than the partner is going against the current, so to speak, to keep re-directing the efforts to healthier ones. It's Hard Work. Granted, if one is having to accept this state of affair for an extended period of time, it can rub on the partner. It can run you tired also. Where you lose your sense of directions.

In my situation, I see more of a situational, an adaptative, a learnt behavior there than a matching injury pattern. For me. So far. But I see how it could become a co-addiction. Like if I get hurt, and I don’t take serious time to properly visit those spots and heal, I could make the mistake of blaming it all on the disorder of the other, and than be very vulnerable to get attracted to someone new with matching sore spots. Like attracted to a mirage of fulfillment, while what I need instead is just healing. Chances are that with the images we carry in our society about how love relationships are supposed to be, we are being challenged to try even harder to separate our feelings from canned fantasies. The sore spots don’t help.

I would like to think that when two educated people (me & my SO) get caught into this type of attachment challenge, we now have so many useful concepts we can refer to in order for us to choose healthy detachment and personal responsibility, within the relationship. It’s mindbogling that it’s so unpopular. Is it really just a peptide issue?




MaybeSo, thank you very much for sharing a bit of your story. I can see how your life work has helped you define a very articulated clinical model. You surely went for it!

I like to see that in your opinion, we are more as a human species than our dis~eases.

It looks like you did go the long haul in this process. I’ll take a bow to your conclusions, especially with the reflection I could glance from reading a few of your fisrt posts on bpdfamily. I really enjoyed reading them. I laughed so hard at the way you said it, it was so frank, and it was spot on like I feel myself to be in my boat at times.

And thank you everybody, for the bits of truth and validation you added to this thread. I find this very useful... Way better than the movies!

   

[MissyM]

Her: anxious attachment style, dependency issues being triggered by partner / intimacy

Him: avoidant attachment style leaning disorganized under stress;  untreated mood disorder

        dependency issues being triggered by partner / intimacy

Maybeso, this is exactly the diagnoses that my dBPDh and I have been diagnosed with (although I would add addiction to His description).  We have recently started attachment couples therapy (not Tatkin but another California couple, they also do the therapy with both therapists and the couple present).  It has already been relationship changing and we have only been working with them for a month. 

As you have brought up Carnes, have you ever read The Betrayal Bond?  I think it pretty well describes what happens in relationship with an SA (also with BPD).  Carnes has some interesting work. 

[Grey Kitty]

All this about attachment theory got me wondering. So I took the first online quiz I found googling. www.psychology.about.com/library/quiz/bl-attachment-quiz.htm

I'm currently in a crisis in my marriage, and I tried to answer in the way I thought I felt... .at a 'normal' time instead of a crisis time. After I finished, I wondered about that choice, and took it again, answering with how I felt today.

My first result was a secure attachment style, and my second was an anxious attachment style.

[MissyM]

My first result was a secure attachment style, and my second was an anxious attachment style.

Interesting, GK.  My understanding is that our relationships can affect our attachment style because we can be a mixture of styles (avoidant, anxious and secure).  Dealing with infidelity made anxious attachment become the dominant style for me in this relationship.  I have to say that I really hate it!  I am feeling more and more settled but at its peak it was like being someone else, kind of an out of control feeling for me.  So I am not sure how much the anxious attachment style is about trauma for me (PTSD) within this relationship or about my own childhood attachment with my parents.  I had a pretty good and healthy relationship with my parents until they divorced around 13.  So that abandonment probably counts for some of my anxiety but having a spouse that has been unfaithful definitely heightened that feeling.

[patientandclear]

In the Betrayal Bond, Carnes says that sometimes, reconciliation with the betraying person is possible and even good. But he says that is only the case where the betraying person has taken responsibility for the harm done and essentially made amends. Then the reconciliation can be healthy -- not addiction based (I don't think he says "not addiction based" but that seems like the motive to reconcile when the harm has not been eliminated and the betrayed person is likely to be re-harmed in the same way).

In the Betrayal Bond type analysis, it is pretty irrelevant what the reasons are for the betraying behavior (sociopathy, BPD ... .). What matters is that first, trust was cultivated; second, an intentional impression of safety was created; third, that safety was violated; fourth, there is no immediate sincere and permanent repair. (I'm summing up--that is not how Carnes breaks down the components.)  Those steps characterize most of our r/ships here (and ironically, that is probably also true in the minds of our BPD partners).

So if we suffer that harm, what of the BB concept that it would only be healthy to re-enter the r/ship after acknowledgement and amends and repair from the betraying partner?

[braveSun]

So if we suffer that harm, what of the BB concept that it would only be healthy to re-enter the r/ship after acknowledgement and amends and repair from the betraying partner?

That would mean that our BPD partners would heal enough to be able to acknowledge responsibility for the hurtful behaviors and stop doing them consistently. Is this possible for BPD in recovery to come to that?

[patientandclear]

Rarely from all I've learned here ... .But I'm actually asking about us. Regardless of whether it's likely that someone with BPD can or will do this, that is the sole condition under which Carnes says it's ever healthy to resume a relationship with someone who has systematically betrayed your trust. I'm asking here, related to the OP's situation and many similar situations, if folks agree with that. Or is Carnes wrong.

Carnes's view does not square up with relationship repair approaches that emphasize understanding why your partner has hurt you, forgiving, trying to meet those needs in a positive way. Looking at our own behaviors and trying to improve the r/ship by changing them.

I think Carnes would say there is a categorical difference between someone who hurts his partner in a r/ship (as we all do) in the normal course of life; and systematic betrayal that involves first building up a false and manipulative sense of connection, and then acting against those representations in a profound way. A way that produces the kind of traumatic reactions we see on these boards, way beyond typical hurt feelings in a r/ship on the rocks.

Interested to see if people here think Carnes' view on healing is wrong and that healing can happen while attached to someone who continues to inflict hurt.

[Grey Kitty]

P&C, Thank you for that summary. It is pretty much exactly how I'm feeling about my situation, even though I've not read BB. (And I see that as of today I've got the unhealthy option to re-enter my r/s.)

So if we suffer that harm, what of the BB concept that it would only be healthy to re-enter the r/ship after acknowledgement and amends and repair from the betraying partner?

That would mean that our BPD partners would heal enough to be able to acknowledge responsibility for the hurtful behaviors and stop doing them consistently. Is this possible for BPD in recovery to come to that?

Is it possible? I'm saying yes... .and punting on how it can happen, or how likely it is to happen. But I do have one data point with my wife:

Our marriage was filled with verbal/emotional abuse on her part. After a lot of work and boundary enforcement on my part... .and a lot of work on her part, she did.

Fairly early on, she acknowledged that she was behaving abusively toward me and that she was remorseful. (But couldn't stop) Then she had a long hard breakthrough, where she let go of a bunch of self-hatred and started loving herself. And POOF. The abuse vanished. I still had my boundaries, but she stopped trying to get past them.

There is a whole 'nuther step on this regarding cheating/infidelity that she has to take, and right now she's at the phase of admitting that she did something wrong. (At least some of the time)

So I believe she can get to that stage of recovery.

[MaybeSo]

P&C,

I am not exactly sure about your question regarding Patrick Barnes and his attitude about healing?

In general, the person who is reading the book, either the one who is identifying as the victim or the one identifying as the perpetrator, is responsible for their own healing. I think Patrick Barnes and most anyone in the psych or recovery industry would agree on that, I think.  (qualifying that I don’t have time to pull out all my P. Barnes books to do research on his specific comments)…but I think that is sort of the general consensus across professions, at least that is what I have seen. That a person's chances of recovery (either the addict or the ‘co-addict’) in moving toward healthier relationship dynamics either with their current partner or with someone else in the future, is dependent upon their motivation and understanding of themselves, learning to care for themselves, learning safe coping skills, replacing dangerous coping mechanisms with heathy coping mechanisms,  learning to act on effective emotional boundaries, grieving their losses, feeling their feelings, managing difficult emotions, understanding and getting their needs met in safe, effective ways, asking for help and getting support,  etc. And that would be true for the offender, as well as the person involved with the offender or “co-addict" who has been traumatized.

Both of these people are traumatized. 

 

[MissyM]

Carnes's view does not square up with relationship repair approaches that emphasize understanding why your partner has hurt you, forgiving, trying to meet those needs in a positive way. Looking at our own behaviors and trying to improve the r/ship by changing them.

I don't really see them as opposing views but things that can be done in tandem.  Carnes' views have evolved over time but having the addict own their behavior is the first step in relationship repair and builds a bridge between the partners.  After that it is much easier for a partner to offer forgiveness and they both learn to address and meet their needs individually and as a couple in a positive way.  In our case, it didn't exactly work that way.  Probably because of BPD and not just SA, I had to get to a place of acceptance and understanding before my dBPDh was willing to really own his behavior and make amends to me.  As long as I had reactivity and wasn't understanding my dBPDh couldn't be vulnerable enough to own his behavior.  (Not sure if I am being clear, I know what I mean but don't think I am articulating it very well.)

[patientandclear]

Grey Kitty--yeah, I was very much thinking of your situation as well as OP Haye's when I wrote those questions.

MaybeSo, the specific question the Betrayal Bond seems to pose for these situations is not about how the individuals heal generally, but whether the person betrayed can heal while in continued intimate contact with the betrayer.

I think Carnes in the Betrayal Bond is not talking about the harm done by all dysfunctional relationships or all r/ships where addiction causes hurtful behaviors. I think he is using "Betrayal" to mean a more specific violation, which I tried to specify above as a particular kind of violation of trust when that trust was secured in deceptive or manipulative ways, systematically if you will; and or a lot of effort was made by the betrayer to create an impression of safety and trust but with no intention to follow through on that (maybe with no comprehension of what that would mean). There is some significance to the huge gap between claimed intentions and actual actions that becomes traumatic to be on the receiving end of. I do see many of our BPD r/ships in that category, maybe not all. No doubt those who perpetrate such traumatizing betrayals are themselves traumatized, but the focus for Carnes in that book is how to move forward after this was done to you. And he says continued connection with the betrayer is only healthy if there are amends made and responsibility taken.

Missy's account suggests that it went otherwise in her r/ship. Which, if that r/s falls into the "betrayal" category which Missy would have to be the one to say, would be different from what Carnes proposes.

[MissyM]

And he says continued connection with the betrayer is only healthy if there are amends made and responsibility taken.

Which, if that r/s falls into the "betrayal" category which Missy would have to be the one to say, would be different from what Carnes proposes.

I believe Carnes is coming out with an updated Betrayal Bond.  His theory has evolved over time and for there to be full marital recovery, he is still very clear that personal responsibility and amends are necessary.  I happen to agree, as there was definitely a couple of years of betrayal in our 17.5 years of marriage and a lot of emotional abuse.  I would not have stayed in my marriage without this being a part of it.  Because of my dBPDh's multiple diagnosis, it has taken a lot of work and a slightly different approach than was originally laid out.  CSATs (trained by Carnes) have become more familiar with PDs over the last few years, as it is much more common among SAs.  As they have incorporated different approaches and modalities into the recovery work, it has become apparent that things are not always as linear as originally laid out.

[patientandclear]

Interesting. Thanks Missy. The role of responsibility and amends and acknowledgement of the betrayal aspect of what happened (or is still happening ... .For GK and Haye) seems like the crux of the matter. Even if not linear. Thanks for sharing that.

[Grey Kitty]

The role of responsibility and amends and acknowledgement of the betrayal aspect of what happened (or is still happening ... .For GK and Haye) seems like the crux of the matter.

My current 'plan' sounds more like MissyM's experience--taking responsibility and making amends will be critical. I do not believe that simply taking a hard line with my wife will get her to do this.

More specifically, I've been trying to set hard, even harsh boundaries... .and insisting that my wife to make amends.

Now I realize that she cannot do this... .until she really takes responsibility. Right now, her disorder is preventing it. She's kitchen-sinking a bunch of other relationship issues with it to justify it.

*IF* I want to save my marriage... .my path is one of sucking up a bit, and working on validation and working on shifting things that didn't work for her. Letting her 'stand down' so to speak. Getting her in a safer place with me where she can be more open and vulnerable. Giving her room to really take responsibility for the harm she's done to me.

Only then will she be able to make amends.

This was the path to a final good resolution that my wife and I found after a prior infidelity-lite event involving a different guy that played out through annual contact opportunities over a few years.

MissyM, does this strategy sound similar to the healing process in your marriage?

[braveSun]

it has become apparent that things are not always as linear as originally laid out.

Thanks for that MissyM! It has been that way in my limited experience as well.

[MissyM]

*IF* I want to save my marriage... .my path is one of sucking up a bit, and working on validation and working on shifting things that didn't work for her. Letting her 'stand down' so to speak. Getting her in a safer place with me where she can be more open and vulnerable. Giving her room to really take responsibility for the harm she's done to me.

Yes, that was most of it.  Also being really clear that for me to be in the loving, intimate relationship I want with my husband that we both have to be in active recovery with no infidelity.  Once I could get where that was how I felt without the anger/rage about the infidelity or trying to control what his active recovery looked like, my dBPDh was able to go along.  At first he was saying he didn't think he could do that, that maybe he just wasn't capable of it.  As long as I kept up with a loving response that I understood this was hard for him, I hoped he would make the choice to work on himself and I loved him.  Hard to do when someone is telling you maybe we should just divorce.  Therapists told me to just ignore that divorce talk and restate my truth in a loving way.  Of course it helped that he was in his own therapy.

[Notwendy]

MaybeSo, your posts are excellent.

Everyone has been so informative.

[braveSun]

Once I could get where that was how I felt without the anger/rage about the infidelity or trying to control what his active recovery looked like, my dBPDh was able to go along. 

Would you say you got there because your work on your own self-care and processing your own grief and hard emotions?

Was there another component, present at that time, to support the trust you felt that you could go along?

At first he was saying he didn't think he could do that, that maybe he just wasn't capable of it.  As long as I kept up with a loving response that I understood this was hard for him, I hoped he would make the choice to work on himself and I loved him.  Hard to do when someone is telling you maybe we should just divorce.  Therapists told me to just ignore that divorce talk and restate my truth in a loving way.  Of course it helped that he was in his own therapy.

Thank you MissyM!

[MissyM]

Would you say you got there because your work on your own self-care and processing your own grief and hard emotions?

Absolutely!  I highly recommend EMDR, therapy and 12 step for codependency (doesn't seem to matter which one as long as it is a healthy group).

Was there another component, present at that time, to support the trust you felt that you could go along?

Not sure what you mean by that?  From my dBPDH?  I believe I began to trust myself and my HP, I truly began to believe my life would turn out ok no matter what happened.  I wanted peace and happiness for my dBPDh, also.  He was suffering and it is hard to watch that with someone you love.  I just wasn't willing to sacrifice myself and my boundaries to make him happy.  I realized that happiness for him meant recovery of his own.

[braveSun]

Would you say you got there because your work on your own self-care and processing your own grief and hard emotions?

Absolutely!  I highly recommend EMDR, therapy and 12 step for codependency (doesn't seem to matter which one as long as it is a healthy group).

Was there another component, present at that time, to support the trust you felt that you could go along?

Not sure what you mean by that?  From my dBPDH?

Yes. I mean did he stop the hurtful behavior before you felt safe enough, or was it something that was between you and your HP simply?

[MissyM]

Yes. I mean did he stop the hurtful behavior before you felt safe enough, or was it something that was between you and your HP simply?

Actually my healing came first.  It wasn't and am not fully "healed" but so much better than before.  My CSAT (who works with spouses of SAs) said that the way this happened was not the common way but was probably the only way in my situation because of my husband's BPD on top of SA.  She said it is usually that the SA gets into a good recovery and the spouse follows along.  It sometimes happens in reverse, like in my life, where the spouse gets recovery first.  I know of a few people that have had it happen the way it happened for me.  Now we are focusing on couple's recovery.

[braveSun]

Yes. I mean did he stop the hurtful behavior before you felt safe enough, or was it something that was between you and your HP simply?

Actually my healing came first.  It wasn't and am not fully "healed" but so much better than before.  My CSAT (who works with spouses of SAs) said that the way this happened was not the common way but was probably the only way in my situation because of my husband's BPD on top of SA.  She said it is usually that the SA gets into a good recovery and the spouse follows along.  It sometimes happens in reverse, like in my life, where the spouse gets recovery first.  I know of a few people that have had it happen the way it happened for me.  Now we are focusing on couple's recovery.

It's coherent with the advice on this board, that the 'healthier partner' takes the lead. Very courageous.

I see that you have undertaken couples therapy before he has stopped seeing other women (in other thread).  Would you say it has to do with the length of the relationship?

Sometimes I feel confident to 'take the lead', and sometimes, I feel like I should let my SO take a step further before I confirm our r/s some more. I told her that I would go to couple's counseling with her if she succeeds in stopping the hurtful behavior.

It's a bit of a wild card for me, and as I take the time for reflexion, I see that I do have a lot of interest to pursue the relationship, yet I have to see how we are when we are plain two... At ground base.   We are still in the dating stage, and this has slowed it down it seems. It has been confusing. Now I slowly get to put some of the pieces together. This board is a good place...  

[MissyM]

Sometimes I feel confident to 'take the lead', and sometimes, I feel like I should let my SO take a step further before I confirm our r/s some more. I told her that I would go to couple's counseling with her if she succeeds in stopping the hurtful behavior.

Yes, this gets very confusing about "taking the lead".  To be clear, my dBPDh was lying that he was still contacting other women.  It came out after a couple of weeks and he was working with his own CSAT again, who recommended a new disclosure.  (sorry these are all SA recovery terms)  Then we were able to put it behind us.  I did an impact letter and he did an emotional restitution letter (the words were good but his emotions were lacking).  Then I felt we were ready to start really deep, attachment work for couples.  I definitely took the lead on that and am so thankful I listened to my intuition and went with it.  That has been a real blessing for me in recovery, getting back in touch with my intuition.