First Couples T tomorrow (Part 9)

[Grey Kitty]

Tomorrow, I'll be having an initial marriage counseling session with my wife. The guy she picked is older, with a lot of experience.

I'm currently debating with myself how much I want to do to guide this session.

I've concluded that I need to take the lead emotionally with my wife--she won't lead us in a good and clear direction. I'm initially going to trust the T to keep us on track, so I can relax.

I also think that our basic goals here are pretty clear: Resolve the big conflicts between us:

• My wife wants to be in contact with the guy she cheated with. I don't.
  
  This is coming to a head regarding our plans for an event this summer.



• My version of our marriage contract includes either of us needing consent from the other to get involved with a new person. She's not done well living up to that.



• She feels trapped/shut down/controlled by me. (For my wife to bring up, I hope)



• (I think I'll save this for individual T, if I bring it up... .I mention it because it kinda matches my wife's issue above)
  
  I've been mostly choosing to not make my own choices in my own life... .and either following or rejecting her choices.

(My thoughts on comments from the last thread coming up in a comment next)



The saga of my wife cheating is now in its fourth month. I didn't think I was going to let it go on this long. History here... .the titles shifted with my feelings at the time:

Part 1: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=235769.0;all

Part 2: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236247.0;all

Part 3: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236799.0

Part 4: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236950.0;all

Part 5: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=237387.0;all

Part 6: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=238665.0;all

Part 7: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=239999.0;all

Part 8: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240363.0;all

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaroonLiquid]

Tomorrow, I'll be having an initial marriage counseling session with my wife. The guy she picked is older, with a lot of experience.

I'm currently debating with myself how much I want to do to guide this session.

I've concluded that I need to take the lead emotionally with my wife--she won't lead us in a good and clear direction. I'm initially going to trust the T to keep us on track, so I can relax.

I also think that our basic goals here are pretty clear: Resolve the big conflicts between us:

• My wife wants to be in contact with the guy she cheated with. I don't.
  
  This is coming to a head regarding our plans for an event this summer.



• My version of our marriage contract includes either of us needing consent from the other to get involved with a new person. She's not done well living up to that.



• She feels trapped/shut down/controlled by me. (For my wife to bring up, I hope)



• (I think I'll save this for individual T, if I bring it up... .I mention it because it kinda matches my wife's issue above)
  
  I've been mostly choosing to not make my own choices in my own life... .and either following or rejecting her choices.

(My thoughts on comments from the last thread coming up in a comment next)



The saga of my wife cheating is now in its fourth month. I didn't think I was going to let it go on this long. History here... .the titles shifted with my feelings at the time:

Part 1: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=235769.0;all

Part 2: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236247.0;all

Part 3: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236799.0

Part 4: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236950.0;all

Part 5: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=237387.0;all

Part 6: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=238665.0;all

Part 7: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=239999.0;all

Part 8: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240363.0;all

Good luck!

[Grey Kitty]

There was a lot of discussion in the last topic... .back to that... .

And, I know the fact that my husband treats me better when I have a lover than when I don't wears on my psyche. I seem to recall that you mentioned in one thread how you upped your game in the romance department when she had a romantic lover. My husband told me to cut it off with my lover on a couple of occasions. I honored his request several different times. When I would honor that request, he would get lazy and it felt like he can only up his game and take an interest in me when there is some kind of direct competition. Our situations are different in a lot of ways but this is something to think about. Why should she trust you to not slip back into old patterns? Why should she commit to you? Have your actions towards her shown her that she can trust you? I know that BPD complicates matters but I think it helps to think about those things and try to approach it from a more objective stand point and look at it in terms of YOUR behavior rather than continuing to make it about her and her behavior. It isn't easy, that is for certain.

I was more romantic when she had the romantic lover... .after he died (suddenly), I was supporting her in her depression, not with romantic gestures. (perhaps a mistake in retrospect) One other bit of history: In the time prior to her being in that r/s, and during the beginning of it still, these things were a battleground: She would expect/want more out of me. If she asked for it first, what I gave her didn't count. Often, I got rejected/silent treatment for my attempts. It was a triggering issue for both of us. We have BOTH changed on that count. She now accepts what I offer her in this area. Without the fear, I do better too.

While the both of you had a hand in getting to this point... .  It will take both of you to move beyond it, whatever that looks like.

Yes. I think one thing I need right now is to see EFFORT on my wife's part. That's part of why I wanted her to pick the MC. It will take more than that, but it is a start.

One thing I'm concerned about here is that I'm feeling like I've been the one putting out effort and giving things up for the last year, and running out of patience for it. I'm concerned that she feels the same way. Obviously we won't get anywhere like that.

Yesterday I told her June 1st is the deadline to see certain changes or I was filing... .She had a romanticized view of divorce where I would be chasing after her like we were dating. Reality Check! She is suddenly very interested in what we can do to avoid plan Z.

I'm not quite there yet, but I have warned her that her version of an amicable divorce isn't what I'm going to do, and I'm pretty sure it will be a wake-up call for her. Not sure if it will be too late or not. (Good for you, being that clear! I hope it works well for you!)

I've got two issues regarding this:

1. When I decide I'm DONE, I'll be done. Pretty much zero chance of going back. Probably spend the next ? months only dealing with separating our lives, no friendly/loving/romantic gestures (at least on my part)

And I'm not there yet.

2. Any steps I take toward separation of assets and cutting joint ties are provocative, hurtful, or both. (I took one in November, and still hear resentment over it!) One result will be more damage to my marriage that will need to be repaired if we are to succeed.



Somebody pointed out that I'm sending mixed messages too, not just my wife. Absolutely true.

I like to think that I'm clear that I'm uncertain about the final resolution, and am sending somewhat straightforward messages about my take on things I'm certain of on both sides of my internal conflict... .and I'm trying not to broadcast the uncertainty to my wife.

I'm probably not doing as well at this as I think I am!  

My wife's mixed message is harder for me (Of course!   ) What I've been getting from her is statements about how she cannot make our marriage work... .where the 'problem' is too vague for me to change my behavior to address it... .or the problem is more in her reaction to me or thoughts about me, rather than my actions.



And here's a big question for myself: What is my motivation?

Do I want a marriage to my wife as she is?

Do I want a marriage to my wife as I hope she will be/thought she was?

-or-

Do I want to avoid the pain of a divorce?

Honestly, I'm driven by all three, so it is a question of priorities.  I think I'm going to give myself an assignment to spend more time thinking about what divorce looks like... .to see what I'm afraid of.

I know I'll make better choices when I work through the fear.

[MissyM]

I've been mostly choosing to not make my own choices in my own life... .and either following or rejecting her choices.

Personally, I would share this info with the couples T.  I find the more I come at it owning my part of our dysfunction, the more I get out of couples T and the more my dBPDh trusts me.

What I've been getting from her is statements about how she cannot make our marriage work... .where the 'problem' is too vague for me to change my behavior to address it... .or the problem is more in her reaction to me or thoughts about me, rather than my actions.

Boy, do I identify with that.  When the complaint is something about how I make my dBPDh "feel", then he isn't focusing on what is actually going on but mixing the past and present.  Fortunately, therapy is helping with this.

[vortex of confusion]

My wife's mixed message is harder for me (Of course!   ) What I've been getting from her is statements about how she cannot make our marriage work... .where the 'problem' is too vague for me to change my behavior to address it... .or the problem is more in her reaction to me or thoughts about me, rather than my actions.

You mentioned that you are not broadcasting uncertainty to your wife. I was trying to do that as well but my husband called me on it so I tried to share the uncertainty with him instead of trying to protect him from it. It went way better than I thought it would because it made him feel a little less crazy for being uncertain too. It ended up with us both validating each other in our uncertainty.

I can really relate to your wife's statements about how she cannot make the marriage work. Maybe that makes me BPD. I don't know. What I do know is that I have reached a point where I feel like I have done all that I can do. Our conversations have improved quite a bit but there are still so many little things to deal with and so many things that I can't even begin to bring up with my husband because I have not yet figured out how to verbalize them. And, in some cases, I am simply overwhelmed trying to figure it all out. I don't know all of your history but I do know that in my case there were lots of times when I would give my husband specific things that I wanted and he wouldn't do them. He would tell me that he couldn't read my mind so I would give him specific things that I wanted (reminds me of the romance issue between you and your wife). He wouldn't do them. Like your wife, I would remind him or ask about it and then he would do it but it felt like he was doing it begrudgingly and then I would get mad because 1. He said he wanted specifics. I gave him specifics but he couldn't take the initiative to follow through with the specifics. 2. I was wanting him to show me that I was a priority and that he thought of me in small ways on his own without prodding from me. Even though that isn't as big of an issue now, it is still there under the surface.

Now, when he asks for specifics, I am hesitant to give him specifics because the list would be rather lengthy AND I don't trust that he will do anything with it. Too many specifics and I am nitpicking or overwhelming him. As a result of all of the failed attempts on my part over the years, I have become detached and have resigned myself to the fact that whatever it is that we work towards will involve something other than a traditional marriage.

This is something specific to my situation but I am going to share it on the off chance that perhaps your wife might have a similar line of thinking. Right now, I am in a place where I don't see me being able to be in a traditional marriage with my husband. If he were to tell me that I had to stop talking to or seeing a certain friend or he would end the marriage, I would tell him to go ahead and end it. I am tired and I am exhausted and I feel like I have been jumping through hoops for years and getting nowhere fast. In my case, I feel like I have had to ask his permission or get his approval for everything that I do. I feel like all of my actions have been under scrutiny for years. If he wants to continue the marriage with me, then I need more freedom across the board. If there is somebody that he doesn't want me talking to or seeing, then I can agree to not tell him but I won't agree to cut it off with that person. Is is right? I don't know but that is where I am at right now. That may change in the future as I sort my stuff out but pushing me to make a decision or a commitment at this point in time would likely cause me lots of confusion and angst and I would be tempted to say, ":)o whatever you have to do for yourself. Stop trying to convince me to go along with what you want and need. You figure your stuff out and I'll figure my stuff out. When we figure it out, we can come back and revisit this stuff then."

All of the pushing and pulling between my husband and I has worn me down. The more he brings up some things, the more worn down and exhausted I get and the more I just want out.

[Grey Kitty]

VOC, you share some feelings with my wife:

I feel like I have had to ask his permission or get his approval for everything that I do. I feel like all of my actions have been under scrutiny for years.

I could imagine her saying this to me, pretty much verbatim... Here's my reaction; I'm asking you as a proxy for my wife... .what do you think about it... .or what am I missing?

What am I supposed to do about how you FEEL? There is NOTHING in that statement that vaguely resembles any action I can take today to make anything better.

FYI, we are living in separate residences. Living mostly on separate funds. (We still have a lot of joint stuff to unravel if we do split 'tho) She may FEEL this way... .it may even have been this way in the past. I have trouble seeing how it applies today.

NOTE2: I'm aware of the tools here. I know that validating her feeling is a much better idea than my blunt reaction!   

[formflier]

• My wife wants to be in contact with the guy she cheated with. I don't.

Grey,

I agree... .you need to lead this thing off... .make sure it starts on the right road.  Then... .I think you need to back off and let your wife feel in control... .at least of the responses initially... .and then make sure there is plenty of time (sessions) where she gets to bring up her issues... .

Cheating... .I would stay away from that early on.  Or if it gets brought up... .do it quickly as part of explaining differences.

The bigger issues it that you guys disagree on "how" to be polyamorous... .or possibly "if" you should be polyamorous. 

I see that as being a very important "tone" to start from.

What is your opening line or statement going to be... .?    Why are you there... .?

[vortex of confusion]

VOC, you share some feelings with my wife:

I feel like I have had to ask his permission or get his approval for everything that I do. I feel like all of my actions have been under scrutiny for years.

I could imagine her saying this to me, pretty much verbatim... Here's my reaction; I'm asking you as a proxy for my wife... .what do you think about it... .or what am I missing?

In my case, I think my husband is missing the fact that I feel a bit like I have been consumed by him. For me, a lot of that feeling comes from being so enmeshed with each other. I need t have things that I do and enjoy that I don't necessarily share with him. He knows everything that I do. I don't have anything to hide but it is a weird dynamic where I feel like he either ignores me completely or is up my butt. If I am doing the dishes and start smiling, he wants to know why. All of the decisions that I have made in our marriage have focused on what is best for him and/or the kids. And when there were times when I wanted to do something different or try something new, I felt like it was shot down.

I know that my husband sees things differently than I do. He says that him bringing up the negatives about this or that were not meant to be scrutinizing. How I felt about different situations and how he felt about them were nowhere near the same. One example was when he was in a band and wanted me to go to band practice with him all the time. I enjoyed going at times but there were also times when I just wanted to stay home, hang out with family, or do something else. If I said I didn't want to go, then he would tell his band mates that he would have to miss practice. At the time, I thought it was cute that he valued my opinion and wanted to be with me so much. As time went on, it became a bit oppressive because I felt like I had to find a way to comply with what he wanted or I would be letting him and his band mates down. There have been other situations where I have expressed a desire to do or not do something and he pushed what he wanted so hard that I gave up and went along with him. Hindsight being 20/20, I now know that I should have set a boundary. It is weird how things add up over time. I think that is something that you may be missing. I know that I have a difficult time communicating with my husband that a lot of the things that I am thinking and feeling are residual effects of years worth of feeling ignored or criticized.

I know my husband is eager to "save" things but he doesn't seem to understand that this stuff didn't happen over night. This is stuff that has been building up for most of our relationship. He does something good or puts forth effort and wants me to accept that he is changing and that things are going well. I can't do that. I don't know if this is the case with you and your wife but I do know that my husband could probably say a lot of the things that you have been saying. He could very easily come to this board and describe my behavior and get confirmation that I MUST be high functioning BPD. The part that is missing is all of the history that has led up to this point. What is missing is all of the years that I made him my top priority. What is missing is the fact that I have read all sorts of information about how to woo my husband, communicate better with him, and a whole host of other stuff. I am tired of trying and I want to friggin' breathe without everything being analyzed (on either of our parts). If we go out and have a good time, I don't want to talk about it. I want to friggin' relish the fact that we had a good time. Every interaction doesn't need to be given a value.

In my case, I don't feel like my husband shares in my joys and sorrows. I feel like we make great friends at times but the whole marriage/relationship stuff is getting in the way of our friendship. Because we have 4 kids together, I am trying to focus on the friendship part of stuff. Of course, that is subject to change as I try to figure out more stuff in my own head.

You have said that you don't feel like your wife is competent to make a decision and you encouraged her to settle down somewhere and regroup. My first thought about that was, "Who are you to make the decision about whether or not your wife is competent to make a decision?" It is little stuff like that that adds up. Even if you aren't saying those things to her or sharing those thoughts with her, it is probably coming across in your mannerisms or the way that you speak to her unless you have a really good poker face. And, then, it can come across as you being disinterested or not caring. It is a double edged sword because it feels like a no win situation. I know that I feel flakier than a box of frosted flakes at times because I do have completely contradictory feelings. And, I know that I will ask my husband for something and he will do it half azz and if I say anything then I feel like I am being picky and putting him in a no win situation. I see that and I recognize it and I don't quite know how to explain it. I have asked myself whether or not it is because of a basic level of incompatibility or is it just because I am that burnt out and tired.

What am I supposed to do about how you FEEL? There is NOTHING in that statement that vaguely resembles any action I can take today to make anything better.

FYI, we are living in separate residences. Living mostly on separate funds. (We still have a lot of joint stuff to unravel if we do split 'tho) She may FEEL this way... .it may even have been this way in the past. I have trouble seeing how it applies today.

NOTE2: I'm aware of the tools here. I know that validating her feeling is a much better idea than my blunt reaction!   

My thought when I read this is: Maybe you aren't supposed to do anything about how the other person feels. I know that there are times that I have feelings that are vague and general and don't make a lot of sense. When I share those feelings with somebody, I don't necessarily want them to DO anything specific. It is more of a case where I am looking for a friendly ear, a little bit of validation, and maybe some empathy. Heck, there have been times when I have shared vague feelings because I needed to get them out somewhere. It made sense to me to share that vague stuff with somebody that I thought was my best friend and life partner. Getting a reaction (verbal/non verbal) that is the equivalent of "What the heck am I supposed to do about it?" is very invalidating and leads to a lot of frustration and hurt feelings. I tend to be a pretty deliberate person so I like to sit with things and maybe run things by somebody else to get some input. Heck, that is why we are all posting here. We want a sounding board. I don't expect anybody to DO anything about the stuff that I say that I am thinking or feeling. Why would we expect our partners to DO anything about our feelings?

Sorry if this got long and rambly! Hopefully, I made a little bit of sense in here somewhere.

[MissyM]

 

I don't have anything to hide but it is a weird dynamic where I feel like he either ignores me completely or is up my butt.

Vortex, I used to say that my dBPDh reminded me of Basil on Fawlty Towers?  Anyone else remember that show?  Either kissing butt or raging.  Push/pull at it's finest.  Always loved that show when I was younger but had no idea that would be my life. 

[Grey Kitty]

What am I supposed to do about how you FEEL? There is NOTHING in that statement that vaguely resembles any action I can take today to make anything better.

My thought when I read this is: Maybe you aren't supposed to do anything about how the other person feels. I know that there are times that I have feelings that are vague and general and don't make a lot of sense. When I share those feelings with somebody, I don't necessarily want them to DO anything specific.

You know, that sounds very reasonable, and is an excellent answer to my question. I'd be happy except for one thing.

I forgot to the one little tiny bit of context on the question. When my wife says this... .it is when she's explaining why she's ready to end our marriage.

You have said that you don't feel like your wife is competent to make a decision and you encouraged her to settle down somewhere and regroup. My first thought about that was, "Who are you to make the decision about whether or not your wife is competent to make a decision?"

When she gives reasons like this to end our marriage:

I feel like I have had to ask his permission or get his approval for everything that I do. I feel like all of my actions have been under scrutiny for years.

It doesn't sound like she is taking ownership for her own choices and actions. This is just one    that is representative of what I'm talking about. And I've got a couple mutual friends who seem to agree with me that she doesn't really know her own mind and heart... .other than that she didn't like some things in our marriage in the past.

That's why I'm looking for something I can DO about it. That's why I'm asking you for your thoughts and take on things.

Sorry if this got long and rambly! Hopefully, I made a little bit of sense in here somewhere.

No worries. You make plenty of sense. More than my wife does. Asking you to explain her disorder to me in a way I can fix things is a pretty tall order, isn't it?

[vortex of confusion]

You know, that sounds very reasonable, and is an excellent answer to my question. I'd be happy except for one thing.

I forgot to the one little tiny bit of context on the question. When my wife says this... .it is when she's explaining why she's ready to end our marriage.

Again, I am thinking about myself and my situation and my thought processes. Even in the context of ending your marriage, maybe she isn't asking you to DO anything specific. I am thinking about how I have shared feelings with my husband regarding ending our marriage. It becomes frustrating for me when somebody wants me to talk and share and open up and when I do then it is taken personally as though I am trying to get my husband to do something specific. My feelings are not always about him. They are about me and where I am at in a given moment. I tried to explain that to my husband one time. I tried to explain that he asked me how I was feeling about things. I took a risk and was honest with him. In that moment, I was tired and frustrated and didn't want to talk about saving anything. In that moment, I was absolutely and completely done. I think that is when he called me on sending so many mixed messages.

I went on to explain to him that, yes, I am sending mixed messages because everything is mixed up in my head. He and I have history together. We have four kids together. Yes, there are days when I hate him and want to run away screaming but there are also days when he does something sweet and kind or helpful and I forget about that bad stuff. The mixed messages are a result of all the gray stuff. Some of this could be attributed to BPD traits but some of it could be plain old fashioned angst over ending such a long relationship and being afraid of what is to come. I know there are days when I am afraid to stay because I can't imagine spending the rest of my life like this. And then there are days when I am afraid to go because I am scared of the prospect of being a single parent with 4 daughters.

It doesn't sound like she is taking ownership for her own choices and actions. This is just one    that is representative of what I'm talking about. And I've got a couple mutual friends who seem to agree with me that she doesn't really know her own mind and heart... .other than that she didn't like some things in our marriage in the past.

This sparked something for me. You are right. She is not taking ownership of her own choices and actions. I have been through that at different times. I am trying to think of how to explain this clearly but I don't know if it is possible. Excuse me while I ramble for a minute. . .Think about this logically. . .if a person perceives that she is being controlled and scrutinized, then how can she take ownership of those choices and actions? Everything becomes defined in terms of what the perceived controller wants. Even if I take it out of the context of control, it is still all about the relationship and what is best for it. It is like the relationship between my husband and I had a shared heart and mind and it became a guessing game for both us. In the process, we both kind of lost ourselves. Instead of the relationship being two very distinct people sharing their lives, it became a situation where it was like we had become this one person with a shared identity trying to figure out and make guesses to what that identity even is. I don't think it is realistic to overcome that sort of thing over night. I have to get back to a place where I remember who I am as a person. I have gotten a lot older since I was my own distinct person outside of my relationship with my husband. It is going to take time. It is going to take me doing some of the things that I used to love doing and see if I still love those things.

For me, I do struggle with figuring out what is in my mind and in my heart. Part of that comes from being part of an inseparable unit with my husband for so long. My husband and I are both very guilty of being completely enmeshed. I know that I am completely guilty of being confused and unclear on things. Why is your wife's lack of clarity such a big deal to you? It is quite clear from your posts that you lack clarity on some things. Sure, your friends can validate that you wife doesn't have much clarity and doesn't know herself. What does that mean in the grand scheme of things? What about YOUR heart? What about YOUR mind? What about YOUR clarity?

That's why I'm looking for something I can DO about it. That's why I'm asking you for your thoughts and take on things.

I don't know if my thoughts are helpful at all and I may be outing myself as completely crazy. LOL. One thing that you can do is be more patient. It isn't easy. I want things fixed and I want it done now. I want an answer and I want it NOW. That attitude does NOT help me at all. I ask myself "what's the rush" all the time. It is a conflict that I have with myself all the time. Some days, like today, the patient part of me wins out. Other days, not so much. 

No worries. You make plenty of sense. More than my wife does. Asking you to explain her disorder to me in a way I can fix things is a pretty tall order, isn't it?

Are you calling me disordered? Well I never.    (Sorry, couldn't resist interjecting a bit of smart alleck humor!)

Some of what your wife is experiencing could be due to the disorder and some of it could be due to the fact that things between her and her partner of 20 years have broken down and she feels helpless as to what she can DO. Yes, the tools and information here are invaluable and helpful and they have made a big difference in how I interact with my spouse. But, the one thing that hasn't changed is that, disordered or not, our spouses are still human beings. Disordered or not it is often difficult to understand somebody else's thoughts, motivations, feelings. I know there are times when my feelings make perfect sense to me but not to anybody else.

Sending you a couple of great big hugs!   

[formflier]

some of it could be due to the fact that things between her and her partner of 20 years have broken down and she feels helpless as to what she can DO. 

Grey & VOC,

This really jumped out at me! 

Grey,

Are you ready to tell her what to do... .to only express that positively. 

As in... .

I would like you to choose to stay here (wherever that is)

I would like you to choose to be with only me (or however you can express this)

I would stay away from anything that says... be with me and don't do xyz (there is negative element to that).  Less chance of being "line in sandish" if you stay positive.

[vortex of confusion]

I would stay away from anything that says... be with me and don't do xyz (there is negative element to that).  Less chance of being "line in sandish" if you stay positive.

Yes, there was something that GK said earlier that caught my attention but I didn't address it or think about it until I saw this. Earlier in the thread, GK said:

I'm not quite there yet, but I have warned her that her version of an amicable divorce isn't what I'm going to do, and I'm pretty sure it will be a wake-up call for her. Not sure if it will be too late or not. (Good for you, being that clear! I hope it works well for you!)

I've got two issues regarding this:

1. When I decide I'm DONE, I'll be done. Pretty much zero chance of going back. Probably spend the next ? months only dealing with separating our lives, no friendly/loving/romantic gestures (at least on my part)

If I were your wife, I would have a real problem with the options that you have presented. What I am hearing is that your wife cuts contact with this guy, or the marriage ends. IF the marriage ends, then the friendship ends as well. So, is it possible that she feels a bit trapped and backed into a corner because not only is she faced with losing the marriage but she is faced with the possibility of losing you as a friend as well.

I know that lots of people don't stay friends with exes, blah, blah, blah. But, I know lots of people that DO stay friends with an ex because there is something about the other person that they really like and enjoy. My husband makes me madder than a wet hen some days but there are other days when I value his opinion and want to here what he has to say. He and I are in the same profession and like to pontificate over mundane stuff.

[formflier]

 

Interesting... I can see the "backed in a corner thing"

She may or may not be self aware enough to realize that she backed grey in a corner with the cheating.

Somehow... .at least at the start... .I hope this can be expressed positively.

I wonder if this is a guy thing.  I feel same way as grey... .if my wife jumped ship... .I don't see any "friendly" options. 

Granted... .we would have to effectively coparent... .but I wouldn't be her friend. 

[MaybeSo]

I'm currently debating with myself how much I want to do to guide this session.

Just a thought... .respectfully... .

If you are paying a professional for counseling, perhaps you might just participate and strive to be personally authentic and "in the moment" on your own behalf... .and let the professional 'guide' the session and see both you and your wife interact spontaneously as is... .w/out trying to take the lead or control anything.  Guiding the sessions is kind of what you are paying the professional to do.   Right? 

Just a thought.

[vortex of confusion]

Interesting... I can see the "backed in a corner thing"

She may or may not be self aware enough to realize that she backed grey in a corner with the cheating.

Somehow... .at least at the start... .I hope this can be expressed positively.

I wonder if this is a guy thing.  I feel same way as grey... .if my wife jumped ship... .I don't see any "friendly" options. 

Granted... .we would have to effectively coparent... .but I wouldn't be her friend. 

It must be a guy thing.  

I understand the point about Grey feeling backed into a corner because of the cheating. That is very applicable. As somebody that has experimented with the poly/open stuff it isn't clear as to whether or not what she did is outright cheating. I know both sides of it. He clearly thinks it was and she clearly thinks it wasn't and there likely isn't going to be any clear agreement on it one way or the other.

Not sure if I should throw this out there or not but it is a thought that I have had on and off but have not shared with my husband or anybody else because I realize it borders on being ridiculous. If my husband were to tell me that I had jumped ship because I wanted to end the marriage or was tired or didn't want to give him the answer that he wanted to hear, this is what I would love to say to him,

"I can't believe you. You are saying that I jumped ship? Really? At least I was on the <list of expletives> ship. I was on that ship for so darned long that I got seasick. I told you I was friggin' seasick and your happy azz didn't hear a friggin' word of it. You didn't hear a single friggin' word of anything I was saying until I said and did a bunch of stupid stuff and scared you into doing something different. Now that I am tired, your happy azz is pizzed off at ME for jumping ship. Really? How in the heck does that even work? Do you realize how self righteous you are being in all of this? I spend 15 years busting my butt trying to meet you where you are and now that I am tired of all of this you suddenly change courses and start telling me who I can and can't see and what I can and can't do? Unfrigginbelievable!"

Yes, I have thought of telling my husband a very toned down version of this. Now that I suddenly feel done, he wants to work on things and make me look like the biggest jerk on the planet because I am not falling all over myself to accommodate him yet again. (Yes, I struggle with bouts of resentment and anger over this.)

[formflier]

I'm currently debating with myself how much I want to do to guide this session.

Just a thought... .respectfully... .

If you are paying a professional for counseling, perhaps you might just participate and strive to be personally authentic and "in the moment" on your own behalf... .and let the professional 'guide' the session and see both you and your wife interact spontaneously as is... .w/out trying to take the lead or control anything.  Guiding the sessions is kind of what you are paying the professional to do.   Right? 

Just a thought.

If we knew that the professional was good... .and experienced with BPD... .then I would be inclined to go with this.

However... .my take is that there is a bit too much at stake for Grey to not try to start off with a positive tone.

Who knows... .the other side of that... .is that maybe Grey expressing his hurt (unfiltered) is what his wife needs.

Hmmm... .

[123Phoebe]

I'm currently debating with myself how much I want to do to guide this session.

Just a thought... .respectfully... .

If you are paying a professional for counseling, perhaps you might just participate and strive to be personally authentic and "in the moment" on your own behalf... .and let the professional 'guide' the session and see both you and your wife interact spontaneously as is... .w/out trying to take the lead or control anything.  Guiding the sessions is kind of what you are paying the professional to do.   Right?  

Just a thought.

If we knew that the professional was good... .and experienced with BPD... .then I would be inclined to go with this.

However... .my take is that there is a bit too much at stake for Grey to not try to start off with a positive tone.

Who knows... .the other side of that... .is that maybe Grey expressing his hurt (unfiltered) is what his wife needs.

Hmmm... .

Honesty is the best policy  Then there's actually "something" to work with other than an agenda.

[Grey Kitty]

This sparked something for me. You are right. She is not taking ownership of her own choices and actions. I have been through that at different times. I am trying to think of how to explain this clearly but I don't know if it is possible. Excuse me while I ramble for a minute. . .Think about this logically. . .if a person perceives that she is being controlled and scrutinized, then how can she take ownership of those choices and actions? Everything becomes defined in terms of what the perceived controller wants. Even if I take it out of the context of control, it is still all about the relationship and what is best for it. It is like the relationship between my husband and I had a shared heart and mind and it became a guessing game for both us. In the process, we both kind of lost ourselves. Instead of the relationship being two very distinct people sharing their lives, it became a situation where it was like we had become this one person with a shared identity trying to figure out and make guesses to what that identity even is. I don't think it is realistic to overcome that sort of thing over night. I have to get back to a place where I remember who I am as a person. I have gotten a lot older since I was my own distinct person outside of my relationship with my husband. It is going to take time. It is going to take me doing some of the things that I used to love doing and see if I still love those things.

I'm getting your point there.

It doesn't help me very much... .as the one who is supposedly in control of her... .when clear evidence is that she DOES things against my wishes... .who doesn't want to be controlling... .I feel like most of the times in the past that I was accused of being controlling, it was a move to control me when she did that... .

Yes, we did the enmeshed thing too. I feel like I've been ripped out of the enmeshed state by her actions over the last few years. (Mostly when she got involved with / chased after other guys) I'm really making my own effort to find myself and stand on my own.

Some of what your wife is experiencing could be due to the disorder and some of it could be due to the fact that things between her and her partner of 20 years have broken down and she feels helpless as to what she can DO. Yes, the tools and information here are invaluable and helpful and they have made a big difference in how I interact with my spouse.

And... .she hasn't had the benefit of the tools and lessons here. (Wouldn't it be nice if your H stopped JADEing at you? If he started validating you regularly?)

No worries. You make plenty of sense. More than my wife does. Asking you to explain her disorder to me in a way I can fix things is a pretty tall order, isn't it?

Are you calling me disordered? Well I never.    (Sorry, couldn't resist interjecting a bit of smart alleck humor!)

Heck, I was saying it was a tall order for you, even before you admitted to being disordered

And thanks for the  . Here's one back. 

[Grey Kitty]

I'm currently debating with myself how much I want to do to guide this session.

Just a thought... .respectfully... .

If you are paying a professional for counseling, perhaps you might just participate and strive to be personally authentic and "in the moment" on your own behalf... .and let the professional 'guide' the session and see both you and your wife interact spontaneously as is... .w/out trying to take the lead or control anything.  Guiding the sessions is kind of what you are paying the professional to do.   Right?  

Just a thought.

If we knew that the professional was good... .and experienced with BPD... .then I would be inclined to go with this.

However... .my take is that there is a bit too much at stake for Grey to not try to start off with a positive tone.

Who knows... .the other side of that... .is that maybe Grey expressing his hurt (unfiltered) is what his wife needs.

Hmmm... .

Honesty is the best policy  Then there's actually "something" to work with other than an agenda.

Thank you, MaybeSo and 123Phoebe.

I think I will be honest and genuine in the moment, and let this T do his job the best he can.

Formflier, I think there is too much at stake for me to be playing games or managing things, or having an agenda. I'm TIRED of having to take the emotional lead role / emotionally mature role at all times. We're going to be paying this guy a lot of money for him to do exactly that. Lead/guide us.

[vortex of confusion]

I'm getting your point there.

It doesn't help me very much... .as the one who is supposedly in control of her... .when clear evidence is that she DOES things against my wishes... .who doesn't want to be controlling... .I feel like most of the times in the past that I was accused of being controlling, it was a move to control me when she did that... .

LOL. I am very familiar with this dance. It may come up in counseling (or it might not). I know that my husband and I have argued about who was trying to control the other when the truth is probably that we were both doing it because we both felt out of control and we were both wanting to feel like we had some kind of control over something.

And... .she hasn't had the benefit of the tools and lessons here. (Wouldn't it be nice if your H stopped JADEing at you? If he started validating you regularly?)

I don't know that I would know how to react if H started validating me regularly and stopped JADEing. I do know that things have improved a little since his sponsor told him to quit being so defensive and start letting me have my own feelings. Some of the things that his counselor and sponsor have told him have made a difference since he isn't trying to argue me out of my feelings or take what I am feeling too personally.

Heck, I was saying it was a tall order for you, even before you admitted to being disordered

Now wait a minute, when I found this forum I was pretty sure that I was the one with the problem.  

[Mike-X]

I feel for you. I went through some similar issues when trying to get my girlfriend to see a couples therapist. She agreed to go and went once, but she felt the therapist was biased. When I asked her to pick another therapist (even sending lists of possible candidates), she never did, ultimately saying that I would just lie and therefore it wouldn't be worthwhile.

Did she choose a therapist who is experienced in dealing with BPD? As you might already know, therapists vary quite a bit in their training, philosophies, etc., and not all therapists are specifically trained to deal with people with BPD.  And as you might have already read, therapists also have to and sometimes struggle with dealing with idealization/devaluing and all of the other defense mechanisms when dealing with people with BPD.

Also, have you talked with the therapist by phone yet? I appreciate what you did with having her contact the therapist and set up the meeting, and I think that it is great that she took the initiative and set it up. However, I talked with several therapist by phone before choosing my current therapist, and one thing that I discussed with all of them was whether they preferred talking with both parties prior to the initial visit. All of them said that they did and thought is was best to hear separately from both sides about their thoughts on therapy and the relationship, but only one said that she insisted on it.  The one who insisted upon it also felt that meeting with the parties separately was often a necessary part of couples therapy.

Additionally, all of the therapist that I contacted admitted, when I asked, to having at least an initial bias toward the person who contacted them to set up the meeting. The thought being that the person contacting them is the one who is experiencing the most distress, who more strongly wants to repair the relationship, etc.  Of course, the appearance of such bias was something that I wanted to avoid, given our first experience with a therapist, and I asked them if they would even be willing to contact her.  Again, they all agreed to do it, but when I brought all of this up, my girlfriend then stated the bit about therapy "not going to work for us if I wasn't going to be truthful."

Anyway, I hope it goes well for you, and I look forward to hearing about your progress.

[MissyM]

Good luck tomorrow, GK!  Hope it is a helpful session.

[formflier]

 

Grey,

Good luck today.  I hope you guys are both settled and in touch with your feelings and thoughts... .and can share those.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Thanks for all the good wishes. I need those. I also got a splash of cold water in a pep talk from my friend / supporter / Team Grey Kitty captain.

Don't let anything get me away from my realization (back months ago) that I really CAN'T be OK with my wife being involved with this guy. I've tried. I've felt too broken hearted and too betrayed. That's why I set the original boundary. I wouldn't be in a marriage with her if she was in contact with him any more. I'm off to read some of my diary from that time again.

I'll report more after it is done.

[Crumbling]

Have a great session, GK.  You've got a good sense of what you want to accomplish, you've got a basic idea of where your boundaries are.  Make the best of today, GK, we are all with you in spirit.

blessings,

c.

[Bloomer]

I wonder if this is a guy thing.  I feel same way as grey... .if my wife jumped ship... .I don't see any "friendly" options.  

This made me laugh because I think I would be open to contact with my dBPDh and he has stated clearly that he wants no contact should we decide to call it quits. 

GK, I am sorry I'm just getting to this thread now. Yesterday was a long work day for me and I didn't have time to post. I have both felt my decisions were driven by my husband being controlling AND received feedback that he felt I was controlling. So I understand both sides of the coin here. When he tells me he bases decisions on things I haven't done in ages or gotten upset over, etc, it's really frustrating. At the same time, I am giving him the same feedback. So what I've started doing is validating his feelings first. Then I express that I own my past behavior but I cannot start to build a more positive interaction about action X unless he gives me a chance to show him I have worked on my half of it and will not be controlling any more.

Of course, in terms of setting boundaries, it is very difficult to do so without the issue of control coming up. Perhaps you could walk through the boundary alongside your value instead of pairing it with the consequence. I.E. If you continue to talk to xman, I will not feel that you respect our marriage or me as your husband. (or whatever your core value is regarding this) Maybe if you frame it this way, the control of stating the consequence might be removed but you're still communicating a very important boundary/value.

Looking forward to your update.   Bloomer

[Grey Kitty]

MC went OK. The guy seems pretty reasonable. It was an initial 1-hour session, and we didn't get very far beyond introducing him to our situation. He didn't seem to be taking sides, and he did give us an assignment that will wait a bit (his computer wasn't in service, and he wanted to make us an MP3 CD of something about relationships to listen to.

I did speak my truth about feeling betrayed and needing my wife to cut contact.

My wife spoke mostly about other problems in our marriage.

I know I was *HOPING* that something magical would happen and my wife would suddenly get all better. That didn't happen.

We ended up spending 4 hours together, with lunch, some errands, and a failed attempt to keep from delving into the deep processing stuff that we keep hanging up on. I felt pretty low at the time.

Saturday I drop her off at the airport; she will be gone around a week. I'll be picking up the 'homework' probably Monday and be able to email stuff to my wife.

So now what for me? I see three options:

1. Be really harsh about enforcing the boundary on her cutting contact completely. (she's not in contact, but still claims she will be 'friends' with him and see him) -- End the marriage, and probably go NC/LC with her.

(Go forward with my life... .separately from her.)

2. Work really hard at all the best tools I can, being validating, being romantic, choosing to be loving even when I will probably hear her say hard, harsh, triggering, invalidating things. And also be vulnerable and take risks sharing with her how I am feeling as best I can. Accept that she cannot see the cheating issue the same way I can. And that if we can improve our relationship and communications, I've got a much better chance of getting there with her.

Stick to my truth about the boundary, and choose not to enforce it. Be able to say that I really did give our marriage my absolute best shot.

(Go forward with my life... .with her)

3. Wait for her to figure it out, or for a friend or therapist to point her in that direction.

(Put my life on hold)

Since the holidays, I've been somewhere around option #3, or bouncing between the two other choices so fast that I was sending a very mixed message.