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Author Topic: How an ADHD can help a BPD  (Read 676 times)
agoodperson

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« on: January 14, 2015, 12:00:21 PM »

My wife and I have married later in life after being reconnected.  We knew each other and dated a bit in HS, and reconnected a number of years ago and are nearing our 4th wedding anniversary.  I am a diagnosed ADHD and have again started taking medication to help me with giving attention in a marriage relationship, and learning how to express my feelings.  My wife has traits and actions, and expresses herself in many ways that reflect BPD, but has not been diagnosed.  I have not mentioned BPD to her.  I am needing to learn better how to show support and empathy.  I have an especially hard time expressing empathy to her.  I love her deeply, and want to do the best I can to grow and help our relationship to grow.  I also have a tough time identifying things that I see needing change in her or something that I disagree with her about because she often becomes very angry, even rageful.  I need some good resources in learning to and practicing being empathic and expressive of my feelings.  I have the book I Hate You Don't Leave Me which I have started reading and is helpful.  Any other help is welcomed.
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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2015, 12:58:07 PM »



Welcome

Fellow ADHD-er here. 

I think empathy might come pretty natural in this, agoodperson. There are some pretty similar traits when it comes to certain aspects of ADHD and BPD. More then I'd like to admit. Smiling (click to insert in post)

It helps me understand that the disorder(s) can cause a certain kind of disconnect. That there is a reason behind the behavior and the more I understand, the better I'm able to handle situations.  We are an excellent source to accomplish better understanding.

Have you checked out the LESSONS? --------------------------------->

More specifically Tools: Communication, Validation, and Reinforcement of Good Behavior]

Are you seeing a therapist at all?

--DG

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agoodperson

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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 08:57:09 AM »

Thanks, DreamGirl,

I have begun to look at the "LESSONS."  Yes, we do have therapists.  We have gone to various ones in our four years together.  We now have separate ones.  When we had the same therapist, she always began to distrust them, and feel that the therapist and I were ganging up on her.  She has started with a new therapist who may help her discover her BPD, but she has only gone to her twice.  It seems the focus so far is how she can deal with my ADHD.  What is frustrating is that she has an obvious pattern of not getting along with family, etc., and always questions or is suspicious of their motives.

Thanks for your response.  I am working on the S-E-T.  Empathy is important, I know.  And it is always risky to tell the "truth," because her truth is so much different.

Peace and Growth,

AGP
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 10:00:25 AM »

Hi there agoodperson, 

I am an ADD-er myself.  Smiling (click to insert in post)  Having ADD/ADHD is sometimes really frustrating when your are coping with some of the BPD behaviors. I tend to lose patience sometimes and divert my attention. My pwBPD thinks my problems with focus/attention are "adorable" sometimes, but he gets very frustrated when he wants attention or validation.

Besides the empathy, what other problems have you been having as a result to your ADHD?
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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 12:27:49 PM »

Thanks EJ,

My spouse never has thought that my focus/attention problems with her are adorable.  I work hard at staying focused, but often she rambles on and on instead of getting to her point.  If I don't respond immediately, I am purposefully ignoring her.  I am working at remembering to tell her I am thinking about what she said.  I have a difficult time interrupting her to answer even though she says I should.  When I do it often comes back to bite me, so I hesitate.  I am typically very calm in the situations, and only get heated very occasionally, which she ironically says she doesn't mind if I am sharing my true feelings and thoughts.  She feels the only way to get things across to me, "to teach me," is to say it with lots of emotion/anger.

I can't even broach the subject of her possibly being BPD.  I am working on the LESSONS here on the site and also read "I Hate You... ." when I get a chance.

Peace,

AGP
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« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 12:55:53 PM »

 

I work hard at staying focused, but often she rambles on and on instead of getting to her point. 

If I don't respond immediately, I am purposefully ignoring her.  I am working at remembering to tell her I am thinking about what she said.  I have a difficult time interrupting her to answer even though she says I should.  When I do it often comes back to bite me, so I hesitate. 

Maybe you can try saying something like, "I understand that you want me interrupt or to respond immediately but,  I want to give you the opportunity to finish what you are saying because it is important. Sometimes it is hard for me to keep focus/attention with my ADHD and I tend to respond better to brevity."

 

I can't even broach the subject of her possibly being BPD.  I am working on the LESSONS here on the site and also read "I Hate You... ." when I get a chance.

It is really hard to talk about that.     I have used the phrase "emotional dysregulation" when talking with my bf about his behaviors. I think there is less of a stigma with that phrase.  Here is another article that may help.

Article 5: Supporting a Loved-One with Borderline Personality Disorder

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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2015, 09:30:16 AM »

   

So, I'm a "dead log" now according to my wife.  When I sit and listen to her, she jumps to the conclusion that I am not hearing her.  She continually accuses me of locking up and being obstinate, not responding to her on purpose to make her crazy.  Anything I try to share or do isn't the right thing.  I am the one making her crazy and she "can't do this anymore," a phrase that she uses when she is in the "I hate you" cycle. Often she is trying to get me to admit things that I don't feel.  "You don't like me."  "You want to drive me crazy because you really don't want to be with me."  When I try not to respond with high emotion or raising my voice, etc., she accuses me of being a "dead log".  She was in my face screaming that she had to really hold back from hurting me, etc., and being very dramatic.  Then she locked herself in the downstairs bathroom (unbeknownst to me) while I was trying to corral a kitten we were taking to the vet.  When I went looking for her to ask her to help me, I found the door locked.  She wouldn't respond at all, nor would she indicated that she was in there or even heard me.  I was very concerned she did something to "kill herself" which she occasionally threatens when she is in the height of her drama.  I always show tremendous concern, but am told, "don't you dare call anyone!"  I finally took the doorknob off.  When I opened the door, she feigned being non-responsive.  Finally she burst out, "How does that fee?  That's exactly what you do to me.  You lock yourself in and don't respond."  She is constantly telling me that I am the one who has to get help (which I do go to counseling, as I mentioned in my first post).  Like I said, she doesn't trust any counselor, and always has a reason that they are not helpful to me or to her.  I admit that it is hard for me to express some of my feelings to her, because she will see them as "justification" or putting the blame on her, and will initiate a rageful response.  I am trying to learn how to be supportive and empathetic, but not be enabling or just surrendering to what she has decided that I am doing or feeling.

She encourages me to find a coach that is more accessible.  Even though she will start out, "I know I have problems, too, but... ."  She always wants to point to me as the culprit for causing all the problems.  I love her so much!  I adjust my schedule, work, priorities, the way I connect with people, etc., to accommodate her needs.

Of course, there is always that swing to where I am the most caring, loving, patient person that she has ever met or been with because I put up with her and always have hope for our growth.

I do a lot of reading and journaling, etc.  Part of my background is having training/education as a counselor, as part of my work.  I do try to watch how I phrase things back to her so as not to sound clinical. I am very aware of my ADHD, but it is hard to show her that I am focused on her and what she is sharing.  When we were talking last night, I was focused on her, but was distracted momentarily by our cats play-fighting.  She felt she needed to regain my attention within a couple seconds of me glancing away.  She claims she is always the one to do the work for me that I need to do.

She wants me to open up and share all my feelings, but it is so hard to put what I am feeling into words that she will hear.

When I have journaled, I do share with her what I have written when she is in a calm and reflective mood.  She always seems moved to hear what I have written.  I do try to share verbally in the same way.  When I share what I write when she is upset, she accuses me of just writing in a way that is "cloaked" because I know she will eventually hear what I have written.

It truly feels like there is nothing "right" that I can say or do.

Frustrated, not giving up, still loving my wife deeply,

AGP
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2015, 10:57:49 AM »

Sorry for the novel... .
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2015, 12:45:37 PM »

Did I overwhelm with my sharing?
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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2015, 12:51:15 PM »

Did I overwhelm with my sharing?

Of course not. 

So, what do you say to her when she says something like this:

She continually accuses me of locking up and being obstinate, not responding to her on purpose to make her crazy.

Like exactly, how do you respond?

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« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2015, 01:07:48 PM »

I usually say something like, "I don't want to make you crazy.  I am trying to learn how to share and respond without it coming across like 'You're wrong.'  I need a little time to reflect on what you said."  I am trying to learn to say right away, "I want a little time to think."  When I do, she will often say, "Well, I know you'll never get back to me."
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« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2015, 01:13:59 PM »

Did I overwhelm with my sharing?

No you did not. I have ADD to it takes me awhile to read.  

Has your wife actually done self harming behaviors or is it only threats?  

 

It seems that many of the things your wife is telling you is projection.  

It is so hard to not take the things a pwBPD says or does personally. Learning how to depersonalize the behaviors really helps.

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« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2015, 01:46:42 PM »

I am needing to learn better how to show support and empathy.  I have an especially hard time expressing empathy to her.  I love her deeply, and want to do the best I can to grow and help our relationship to grow.  I also have a tough time identifying things that I see needing change in her or something that I disagree with her about because she often becomes very angry, even rageful.  I need some good resources in learning to and practicing being empathic and expressive of my feelings.  I have the book I Hate You Don't Leave Me which I have started reading and is helpful.  Any other help is welcomed.

We do have a Workshop that could help you with this, agoodperson: How do we become more empathetic to the pwBPD in our life?

I know that I used to freeze up when my Husband (with BPD traits) would dysregulate, because I was afraid of saying anything to him that could fan the fires of his episode. So I would keep my face pretty blank, and keep my mouth shut, all out of fear of making the situation worse. Then, my not reacting to him or saying anything would do exactly that: fan the fires of his episode and make the situation worse!

I read the Workshop above, and it really helped me figure out how to empathize and have compassion for the way his mind was working, and how he was feeling during his dysregulations. And I found that once I reacted to him in a different way (showing concern and interest in his troubles and feelings with my words and facial expressions, validating his feelings and depersonalizing them from myself) his dysregulations ended quite quickly, and even lessened in frequency because he now realizes that I care about him and how he looks at things and feels. It really is quite remarkable!

Maybe that Workshop will help you with that, too?

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« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2015, 01:47:44 PM »

Her self-harming is mostly picking at her skin... .arms... .her mother even commented when we visited her last the she noticed all the marks on her arms.

The self-projection is very evident to me, but if I would suggest that it would be me denying and throwing it all back to her.

I work at not taking what she says personally, but when I don't share the way she thinks I should share she vehemently says I am ignoring her and don't care or really love her, that I think I would be better off without her.  No way do I ever think that.
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« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2015, 01:50:58 PM »

Thanks, Rapt.  I'll work through that workshop.
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« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2015, 02:05:36 PM »

Her self-harming is mostly picking at her skin... .arms... .her mother even commented when we visited her last the she noticed all the marks on her arms.

The self-projection is very evident to me, but if I would suggest that it would be me denying and throwing it all back to her.

I work at not taking what she says personally, but when I don't share the way she thinks I should share she vehemently says I am ignoring her and don't care or really love her, that I think I would be better off without her.  No way do I ever think that.

The reason why I asked about self-harming and threats is because, your situation in the bathroom is very similar to what I have encountered with my bf. He used to lock himself in the bathroom quite often and threaten to kill himself. I used to chase after him and beg and plead. It was almost like a game. One day, I let him in there and did not stop his tantrum.  A hour later he came out and asked why I did not go in there after him. I told him that I am not doing that anymore. He tried one more time and I reacted the same. He did not do it again.

Self-harming is really tough to cope with.  Does your wife talk to you about it?

Talking about projection or other defense/coping mechanisms with a pwBPD, usually tends to not end up well if the pwBPD is dysregulating or very unaware of their behaviors. Personal responsibility for actions, is a commonality amongst pwBPD.
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« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2015, 02:21:06 PM »

Thanks, EJ, for your response.  Her claim about the bathroom incident was to "teach me how it feels."  That I am like her being locked up in the bathroom and won't let her in to my world.  She always is thinking that I hold a lot back, because when I do share my thoughts with her she always claims that I am not telling her the whole truth when, in fact, I have told her how I feel, etc.  It is so hard not to just give in and say, "Yes, you're right.  That's what I did/feel/think."  Typically, I am a good, hopeful, gentle person which drives her nuts.  I give people the benefit of the doubt.  Because I don't respond to people the way she does, she feels I am not standing up for myself, or worse, not standing up for her, or not taking her side.

She blames her frustration, aggravation, hurt, rage, and "craziness" on me that I "make" her feel that way.

She has a hard time believing that I love her so deeply.  She has never had that in life with anyone before, except one girlfriend, not a sexual love, but a deep friendship, with her.

Her family of origin had much dysfunctionality, and well as her previous marriages.

It's so hard to share with her because she seems always to do things or think things to the extreme.

She pushes me about my counseling, yet she doesn't work at her counseling, and claims the person is not effective, doesn't listen to her, which she has mostly done with other counselors. 

I am looking into some coaching, which she pushed for.  I want to show her that I am sincerely working to grow.
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« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2015, 02:28:31 PM »

 

The novel was really good... .lots of details in there that I think we can use to help you.

Have you ever tried to validate her feelings?

Have you read about "invalidation"?

good news... .I didn't pick up anything in your story that leads me to believe you are invalidating her... .I'll read it again a few times... .but usually that jumps out at me.

Theory:  She is doing these things to get a dysfunctional reaction from you.  This is most likely not conscious on her part.  If we can change your "reaction"... .she will eventually tire of trying... .and do something else.  Hopefully we can influence that "something else" to be healthier.

We also need to teach you to validate her emotions... . Validation doesn't "fix anything"... .but think of it as lube... .oil... makes things work better.  Think of it as "calming".

So... .if she is angry... ."I can see you are upset... .being upset it tough... .I believe I would be upset in this situation as well"  practice saying things like this by yourself... .it is important that you have an even... not excited delivery.

Try to pick some other emotions... .try to come up with similar ways of delivery for other emotions... .sadness... despair... .

Warning:  :)on't worry if it feels "clumsy"... .most of the time it really does feel clumsy... .you will get better at it.

I'll be back later with some more thoughts
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« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2015, 02:35:24 PM »

 

Bathroom incident:  I see two "healthy" ways of handling it... .there may be more.  I think what you did "fed" her behavior... .made it worse. 

If she is in the bathroom and "non-responsive"... .and you are worried about her... .call 911.  Let the professionals do their thing.  Don't every apologize... .explain... or listen to any complaining about that from her.

If you are fairly certain she is ok... .go about your business... .and ignore her fit... or whatever she is doing.

If she wants to explain the lesson to you... .ask her to put in in writing... .so you can better understand it.  You want to digest it properly.  Don't stick around to let her yammer on about "what a log" you are.

Here is the thing... .you are valuable... .you are not a log.  You do not deserve to be spoken to that way.  You don't explain that to her... .you show her by your actions... .

If ever "forced" to explain it... .explain it once... clearly... and then never speak of it again.  Just do it.

What do you think about what I have written?  Is it making sense?
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« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2015, 02:36:29 PM »

Thanks, ff.  I have read about invalidation/validation.  I know I need to watch my non-verbals so as not to invalidate her.  I do say things like you mentioned... .

We also need to teach you to validate her emotions... . Validation doesn't "fix anything"... .but think of it as lube... .oil... makes things work better.  Think of it as "calming".

So... .if she is angry... ."I can see you are upset... .being upset it tough... .I believe I would be upset in this situation as well"  practice saying things like this by yourself... .it is important that you have an even... not excited delivery.

When I do that she immediately thinks I am being her counselor.  It is really a dilemma for me.  I do know that I have to watch my "but"s, and just confirm what she expresses.

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« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2015, 02:40:04 PM »

Thanks, ff.  I have read about invalidation/validation.  I know I need to watch my non-verbals so as not to invalidate her.  

Can you explain watching the non-verbals?
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« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2015, 02:54:36 PM »

Things like posture, eye-contact, rolling of eyes, sighs, etc.
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« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2015, 03:03:48 PM »

Her claim about the bathroom incident was to "teach me how it feels."  That I am like her being locked up in the bathroom and won't let her in to my world. 

This is a method of control and manipulation.

I think what you did "fed" her behavior... .made it worse. 

If you are fairly certain she is ok... .go about your business... .and ignore her fit... or whatever she is doing.

I agree with FF, it is almost like reinforcing her behavior. 

She always is thinking that I hold a lot back, because when I do share my thoughts with her she always claims that I am not telling her the whole truth when, in fact, I have told her how I feel, etc.  It is so hard not to just give in and say, "Yes, you're right.  That's what I did/feel/think."  Typically, I am a good, hopeful, gentle person which drives her nuts.  I give people the benefit of the doubt.  Because I don't respond to people the way she does, she feels I am not standing up for myself, or worse, not standing up for her, or not taking her side.

She blames her frustration, aggravation, hurt, rage, and "craziness" on me that I "make" her feel that way.

She has a hard time believing that I love her so deeply.  She has never had that in life with anyone before, except one girlfriend, not a sexual love, but a deep friendship, with her.

Instead of focusing on her wants and needs, ask yourself this question: what do you want?



I am looking into some coaching, which she pushed for.  I want to show her that I am sincerely working to grow.


Is the coaching more for her or for you?
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« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2015, 03:20:51 PM »

Things like posture, eye-contact, rolling of eyes, sighs, etc.

And this relates to invalidation... .how? 

Maybe... .after you answer that... .try to explain invalidation in a sentence or two.

Really want to make sure we are on same page here... .

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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2015, 08:40:34 PM »

EJ and ff,

Thanks for both of your inputs.

I didn't hang around long after I got the door open. She did text me later with her thoughts about why she did what she did. And yes, I do want to be very careful not to reinforce or enable that kind of scene.

On the question about non-verbals and invalidation, my sighs or rolling of eyes says to her, "I can't believe you think that or see things that way. Sheesh. You're wrong. You're not thinking right".  

I am happy to report that when I got home this late afternoon we did have a good exchange and emotions were more in control. I feel I did better on my part.

I guess the coaching is for me, but also to show her that I am serious about addressing our issues.

Also, I did share with her the journaling I did today about the bathroom incident and some previous journaling I had done.  That seemed to help. I had also talked with a coach for a bit and shared with her what his suggestions were.
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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2015, 09:20:05 PM »

PS. It seems she has moved off the extreme, "You're driving me crazy" end to a more moderate place.
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« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2015, 08:56:59 AM »

ff,

My understanding of invalidation is to reject, ignore, mock, tease, judge, or diminish someone's feelings. It is an attempt to control how they feel and for how long they feel it.
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« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2015, 06:49:41 PM »

ff,

My understanding of invalidation is to reject, ignore, mock, tease, judge, or diminish someone's feelings. It is an attempt to control how they feel and for how long they feel it.

Close... .and your understanding might be good enough...

Think about "opposite".  So... .she thinks you are a horrible person... .you "prove" that you are good... .and she is still upset.

This is because you invalidated her feeling by "proving" you are good.

Better is to  acknowledge that her thinking you are horrible... .is horrible and troubling.  This is different than agreeing.

Does this help?

I think you were really close...
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agoodperson

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 37



« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2015, 11:14:24 AM »

Hi ff,

I understand about validating her feelings, but am not sure those feelings have to be opposite, but are often certainly different.  One invalidates another's feelings by telling them in one way or another that they are wrong.

Anyway, I am learning to validate and show empathy with her.  We have had a good number of days.  I am learning to let my guard down and just say what I feel, which she says she respects and feels more respected and loved (and validated).

We will be continuing our individual counseling sessions, so there is always hope.  We both share that we are committed to growing together and supporting that growth as individuals and as a couple.

I read your "introductory post" and can relate a lot to many of the things you shared.  When I get a chance, I will post a response there.

Peace,

AGP
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maxsterling
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic Partner
Relationship status: living together, engaged
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« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2015, 11:41:40 AM »

Wow - I'm glad I read this thread.  So much of this rings so very true for my situation.  I think I am very much like you, AGP, a thoughtful, kind, even keeled guy.  I also get accused of being abusive or manipulative if I take too long to answer.  I also get accused of "shutting down".  Kinda hard not to when getting screamed at to the point my ears are ringing. 

I've also been diagnosed ADHD.  I was diagnosed a few years ago, but just started medication today (Focalin).  The reason in the delay between diagnosis and medication is that for awhile I felt my symptoms were manageable.  The chaos of being with a pwBPD seems to make things worse and make it harder for me to focus on priorities.  I also have less "quiet, alone time" which I think I need in order to focus and re-group.

I'm hoping the medication can help.  The past few months have been hell for me where it feels like I can't concentrate on anything.    Anyone else here take meds for ADHD, or think that being with a pwBPD has made the ADHD more difficult to deal with?
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