Open/poly relationships with "BPD" partners

[Bloomer]

I've read and posted a lot on this particular topic but I'm curious to see what we can accomplish by opening more of an ongoing dialogue about the concept of non-monogamy (in all its various forms) and how different people have felt/approached this subject.

My dBPDh and I were very sexual at the start of our relationship, like many here probably were. This ended up involving a lot of fantasies and role play. Thirds were mentioned, the fact that we both identity as bi also came into play. We were long distance during this time, so nothing was very real. I felt very confident then and had it been brought up before "the bomb" went off in our rs I think I would have been very open to it. Unfortunately, things changed in our rs and the endless conflict started (which then I didn't have any idea what BPD even was and neither did he). We moved in together, the conflict worsened. After about 3 months living in, H wanted to start "dating" together only to find a 3rd partner. I felt very curious about the idea of our fantasy becoming a reality but he constantly criticized me throughout the process of setting up a joint dating profile/chatting with someone new/the way I perceived some of the dates we went had. It became just another thing for him to pick at and I soon wanted to back out. That would result in bigger conflict and he would tell me if I didn't want to do it that was fine but I needed to stop making things less fun for him. If I said ok I don't want to do this, he would rage. If I apologized and tried to move on, we'd just have the same discussion next time I expressed any hesitation or even seemed trepidatious.

Eventually we did find someone we both liked, who also liked us. We went back and forth between being sexual (not a full blown 3rd poly rs) and just being friends. My own insecurities probably would have made this difficult in a healthy relationship but in a toxic relationship, I was being painted black and this new partner was not. It was too much to handle. We fought about this constantly. Eventually I just tried to push down all my feelings bc voicing them was not helpful. We ended up in a full-blown rs with her, our rs being considered the primary and our rs with her secondary (for anyone versed in poly terms). I felt torn between feeling relieved I had someone else to be nice to me, who I cared about and still resenting that she didn't have to deal with any of the "other" rs stuff that I did. She only got the nice H. After a while, she had some of her own problems with addiction (ended up ALSO being BPD) and broke it off with us. They both dysregulated on each other. Then we went NC and things in my marriage improved over all. I was not so bad after their blowout.  

H finally understood that we needed to be in a good place before exploring any nonmonogamy again. Since that time H went from firmly stating he is polyamorous and will *have* to be able to have secondary rs with others to saying that is too much for him with his BPD and that he only wants to explore polyamory in a sexual way (more of an open rs than poly by my definition). I said that seemed more doable (no pun intended) to me as well. He still wants to have more threesomes though and I think that is just a bad combination for us. This is still a point of discussion for us.

My question is have any of you been open to trying non-monogamy in some form and how did it go?

Could you imagine it being better if your rs improved?

Do you think you had to warm up to it or did it come naturally?

How have you dealt with your own insecurities in general and around the idea that your rs with your SO may always be a lot of work and how easy it will be for a shiny new person?

Other thoughts or questions are encouraged.

 Bloomer

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[ColdEthyl]

My dBPDh has expressed interest in seeing me with another man while he watches, and I know he and is ex-wife did some swinging, but he said how that went for them was he could tell the woman wasn't really into it, so while his exwife and her husband were going at it, they sat there and talked. I'm not sure if he says that for my benefit (not sure why it would be for my benefit, but BPD thinking is weird) or if that's what happened.

I told him early on in the r/s I'm not comfortable with any of that type behavior, even another man and myself while he watches. He understood and has been respectful of that.

I think for my guy, he's got more a voyeur leaning. But, it does seem like most pwBPD have some sort of sexual issues/fetishes/conflicts.

[Bloomer]

It sounds like your husband has a very positive grasp of your relationship boundary for this and that's really great. It also sounds like you've done a good job of creating that boundary and I think that I definitely dropped the ball on that in the beginning. I should have stuck to my boundaries when I didn't feel comfortable. It would have avoided a lot of hurt for us both. Thanks for sharing your experience 

[vortex of confusion]

This is definitely an interesting topic and one that I think about a lot as I have a lover on the side because of our experimentation with open/poly relationships. It has been one heck of a ride for sure.

My husband and I have both indicated in indirect ways that we would rather explore alternatives to monogamy that get a divorce. Our thinking was that it might allow us to give our kids an in tact home. Plus, I am not completely sold on monogamy for a host of reasons.

We were married 14 or 15 years when we decided to try it. It came about kind of haphazardly. I had gotten to a point where I had tried anything and everything to get my husband's attention. I read serious stuff and not so serious stuff about how "woo" your husband. I tied myself in knots trying to figure stuff out with my husband. One day, I was sitting at home alone and started browsing online personal ads. I had done it before but had never responded to anything. Anyway, I responded to this guy's ad and we hit it off. He was an outright cheater though. He and I hit it off right away and talked for two days before I was overcome with guilt. On the second or third day, I told the guy that I was going to tell my husband because I couldn't lie to him like that. So, I told my husband about the email exchanges with this guy. I even let him read them. The other guy was bi. My husband thought that was great and told me how he thought he was gay/bisexual. I am not sure how it all came to pass but I ended up arranging a threesome between me, my husband, and this other guy. There was a lot of weirdness on the part of my husband. I pretty much had to take the lead. It started out that my husband was going to go meet the guy and make sure he was "ok". Then it turned into both of us meeting him for lunch. That turned into me meeting him for lunch by myself. Somehow, it turned into me meeting the guy at an hourly motel for our first meeting. There were a lot of things that transpired in all of this that I wasn't comfortable with for a variety of reasons.

Anyway, fast forward a bit. . .my husband decided that he wasn't gay or bisexual. (The relationship with the bi guy ended after my husband emailed his wife. I guess my husband was mad because the guy never talked to him again but continued to see me. Plus, my husband became insanely jealous of that guy.)

But, he did want both of us to be able to pursue relationships on the side. I was okay with it. I ran a few ads and so did he. He didn't have any luck finding anyone decent. It was frustrating for me because he would go back and forth about what he wanted and whether or not things were open or closed. At one point, I felt very much used because he would try to encourage me to go have sex with guys. I didn't do it. I am not a promiscuous person. Being open or poly is very, very different than being promiscuous. I felt like he was trying to turn me into his personal wh**e. I say that because he would demand details. He would nag me to give him details. There for a while, he couldn't get excited over me unless I gave him details about what I was doing with my lover. I have had to call him by my lovers name a time or two to get things going if you know what I mean.

He had a few relationships with women that were primarily via email. The problem that we had was that there wasn't really any agreement between us about what was okay and what wasn't. He wanted to know all of the details of what I was doing even when I wasn't comfortable sharing those details with him. And, he was wanting to give me more details that I could realistically handle. I wanted things to be more low key where there was honesty but not too much honesty. I hope that makes sense. Where things kind of imploded was when he would tell me that he was okay with me having a lover one day and then saying ugly things about it the next day. My lover has been great and hasn't really pushed anything. We went for 6 weeks or so and didn't talk at all. And the other complication is that my husband couldn't be honest with me about what he was or wasn't doing. He would tell me "oh, we are just friends" only to later find out that they were sexting. I didn't have a problem with the sex stuff. I had a problem with the fact that he was telling me one thing and then doing another. I got into his messages one time and found out that he was telling these women all kinds of horrible things about me. That made me really, really angry. There was no reason for him to do that. He had my permission to be talking to these other women. He did not have to run me down to them. Oh, and the other problem was that he would try to be somebody he wasn't. With me, he would be totally vanilla and not want to try anything new at all yet with some of these other women he was telling them all sorts of things. It made no sense to me at all. I told him that if he wanted to try some rough stuff, I would be more than happy to accommodate him. His story changed from day to day and it seemed like his personality would change based on who he was talking to at any given time.

It was really confusing for me. My husband is a sex addict so he is trying to get that under control and in a good place before he thinks about finding anybody else. He has one female email friend that he talks to a lot and I am okay with that. The hard part for us/him/me is figuring out what is hardwired and what is part of his addiction. My husband is very much a cuckold.

[maxsterling]

Well, I see this topic come up frequently on this message board, so I assume non-monogamous r/s with pwBPD is common.  Here is what I have experienced:

When my wife and I first got together, I don't think she believed in monogamy.  She told me that if I really wanted to sleep with someone else, I could, but had to run it by her first.  She also told me it would be ok and she would not be hurt if I slept with other men    In hindsight, those should have been HUGE red flags. I told her I was not interested in that kind of r/s, and actually was part of the reason I tried to break it off with her about a week later.

My wife says she was in non-monogamous relationships in the past.  She says she felt weird because she could not let go of her jealousy.  She says she beat herself up over not being able to make it work for her. 

I think she has at times struggles with the idea of being monogamous with me.  the result on my end is the "push" in the "push-pull".  Yet she has extreme jealousy issues, and can't even hardly stand the idea of me being with someone else prior to her.

My feeling is that by nature pwBPD then to lean towards non-monogamous relationships because they fear the closeness of monogamous ones.  Yet at the same time, I think this is self-destructive behavior, and that us nons going along with this is potentially enabling a problem and increases the chance of making things worse.

I think this is one issue where it is imperative to have a clear boundary/limit with our partners. 

[ColdEthyl]

Well, I see this topic come up frequently on this message board, so I assume non-monogamous r/s with pwBPD is common.  Here is what I have experienced:

When my wife and I first got together, I don't think she believed in monogamy.  She told me that if I really wanted to sleep with someone else, I could, but had to run it by her first.  She also told me it would be ok and she would not be hurt if I slept with other men    In hindsight, those should have been HUGE red flags. I told her I was not interested in that kind of r/s, and actually was part of the reason I tried to break it off with her about a week later.

My wife says she was in non-monogamous relationships in the past.  She says she felt weird because she could not let go of her jealousy.  She says she beat herself up over not being able to make it work for her. 

I think she has at times struggles with the idea of being monogamous with me.  the result on my end is the "push" in the "push-pull".  Yet she has extreme jealousy issues, and can't even hardly stand the idea of me being with someone else prior to her.

My feeling is that by nature pwBPD then to lean towards non-monogamous relationships because they fear the closeness of monogamous ones.  Yet at the same time, I think this is self-destructive behavior, and that us nons going along with this is potentially enabling a problem and increases the chance of making things worse.

I think this is one issue where it is imperative to have a clear boundary/limit with our partners. 

That's an interesting theory. For me, the part that confuses me is my husband said these things to me about watching someone with me, yet he's worried I might be cheating because of his ED issues and "I can do better."

He's said things like "I can't believe I married a girl scout" or things similar because I'm not promiscuous and never have been. I wonder if he looks at his own past behavior and compares it to his... .which is silly because we are different people, but there's that BPD thinking again.

[Bloomer]

@Vortex, I also feel like I don't quite fit into the monogamy box. I have a history of serial monogamy but I think if the card of open rs had been on the table I may have taken that instead of jumping into another rs. I also am a big science nerd and have read Sex at Dawn, which is a pretty interesting look at non-monogamy from a biological perspective. However, we started into our poly journey just at about 6 months into the rs. I didn't have time to feel bored and when he wasn't completely unhinged, I was still "addicted" to him.

There's no going back though. I am still unsure even if we are in a healthy place of what issues may come up when we try this again. H also initially had jealousy issues before we actually tried being with anyone. I have also questioned if he would feel differently seeing me with another man, where there is a comparison.

@maxsterling, I agree that part of the draw could be the fear of monogamy. I think it is also the high of being with someone new. When they first meet someone, it's intoxicating for them and the other person. I have seen my husband go through a lot of friends during our relationship and watched him go from wanting to hang out with them every weekend to getting upset to just not putting anything into the rs anymore.

Oddly, I think this has helped me with some of my jealousy issues I have realized that it isn't just me that it happened to and also that no one is exempt. So I guess I have some security in the sense that I have stayed and vowed to make this better and work through it. Even though he's gotten much better at regulating his emotions, he still struggles a lot with full blown intimacy and relationships. Those may always be hard for him even if he handles it better.

[vortex of confusion]

@Vortex, I also feel like I don't quite fit into the monogamy box. I have a history of serial monogamy but I think if the card of open rs had been on the table I may have taken that instead of jumping into another rs. I also am a big science nerd and have read Sex at Dawn, which is a pretty interesting look at non-monogamy from a biological perspective. However, we started into our poly journey just at about 6 months into the rs. I didn't have time to feel bored and when he wasn't completely unhinged, I was still "addicted" to him.

I have been reading Sex at Dawn. I am about halfway through it. I have skipped around as a friend recommended that I read it and pointed out specific sections to skip to and read.  My husband and I were firmly established in our relationship and had 4 kids before we ventured into trying anything. We have had poly, bi, and all sorts of friends over the years. I don't see much difference between serial monogamy and poly but I think I actually got that idea from the Sex and Dawn book.

There's no going back though. I am still unsure even if we are in a healthy place of what issues may come up when we try this again. H also initially had jealousy issues before we actually tried being with anyone. I have also questioned if he would feel differently seeing me with another man, where there is a comparison.

One of my friends sent me some good information in the very beginning. Jealousy issues and insecurity issues are going to come up. The problem with trying this stuff with a person with BPD is the fact that poly relationships tend to work best when there is open communication and complete honesty. I think most of us know how difficult that is already. Throw another person into the mix and it is a recipe for disaster. My husband and I have recently gotten to a point where we are trying to focus on our communication and being friends. One of the things that I like about the idea of poly is that it leave open the possibility that my husband and I can stay together to give our kids an in tact home but neither of us have to suffer due to unmet needs. (Or something like that. It sounds better in my head.)

I think how he reacts to seeing you with another man is going to depend on how he is hard wired. My husband seems to be really hard wired to get excited about me being with other men. I also noticed that his jealousy seemed to pique when I was developing an actual relationship with my friend rather than just a sex buddy. And, I have to watch out because there have been times when my husband has tried to fill my head with crap by implying that my lover might just up and disappear on me. He will feed my insecurities at times.

@maxsterling, I agree that part of the draw could be the fear of monogamy. I think it is also the high of being with someone new. When they first meet someone, it's intoxicating for them and the other person. I have seen my husband go through a lot of friends during our relationship and watched him go from wanting to hang out with them every weekend to getting upset to just not putting anything into the rs anymore.

That is a very good point. I know that when my husband was posting and responding to ads he would get so excited when he would meet somebody new. It was like a kid opening a present on Christmas morning. I find that I am the opposite. I like meeting new people but when it comes to issues of intimacy I would much prefer the comfort of being with somebody where trust and what not have been established.

Oddly, I think this has helped me with some of my jealousy issues I have realized that it isn't just me that it happened to and also that no one is exempt. So I guess I have some security in the sense that I have stayed and vowed to make this better and work through it. Even though he's gotten much better at regulating his emotions, he still struggles a lot with full blown intimacy and relationships. Those may always be hard for him even if he handles it better.

I question the wisdom of us doing stuff with other people because he is so flaky about his emotions. If he has a fight with one of his friends, how is that going to impact me and the kids? That was a real issue when he was actively looking and talking to others. He would obsess about it and ignore me and the kids even more than he did before. I had a difficult time communicating to him that the problem wasn't with the other people. The problem was with him using those other people to escape dealing with me and the kids. Does that make any sense? I was accused of having a double standard because I tried to continue to hold him responsible for his family duties.

[Grey Kitty]

I've posted quite a bit about my story and my marriage. It was monogamous for all but the last few years of over twenty.

I've got a lot of interest in alternative relationships. I've been fascinated with both the idea of polyamoury and with swinging / play parties for a longer than I've been involved with anything of the sort. Right now, I'm wondering for myself why, given how little I've pursued it, as opposed to being pulled into it / dragged into it.

I'm feeling emotionally exhausted right now, after a marriage counseling session today, and not even sure what I want to say about my relationship(s). Other than that I feel like I've spent enough time being polyamorous and enough time being monogamous that I believe I can successfully do either one.

[waverider]

The problem with poly relationships is they require an enormous awareness of self and emotional stability to stay grounded and not delusional. Unfortunately it is often a lack of these traits that causes people to seek these relationships out. They are often the domain of pwBPD/NPD/sociopath issues.

Many are in them for the wrong reasons, and why many often end in heartache.

[Haye]

Yup, I have to second Waverider. I've been in an semi-open marriage, which worked most of the time rather well. However it did require a lot of work, trust and openness, communication skills, readiness to deal with issues as they arise, and being very attuned to emotions and issues people in your life. And of course the emotional stabilitiy waverider mention (or being blind to emotions, like some aspergers). Even with all those traits both in my and my ex-husband both found it sometimes quite straining. It went rather well as long as it was about sex (my ex had a permanent mistress, who I knew well and liked).

It was watching my spouse being in madly in love with someone else that was a bit too much to bear. 

My BPD SO would like nothing more than an completely open r/s, him being free to go as he pleases. Unfortunatley he doesn't have all the communicational skills, is miles from emotional stability, struggles with trust and openness and isn't very good in taking care the other loved ones in his circle handle the situations. Has a habit of falling madly in love with the new girl and forgetting about the old. Plus attachement problems, combined with abandonment issues and well a lot of things that come along with his diagnoses. He actually once said to me: "I don't think I'm really polyamorous, I think I'm just f*ed up".

I don't know. I haven't completely buried the idea of non-monogamous relationships in my life, but I think it will be very unlikely for me to find a person/persons with whom it would work. 

[Bloomer]

I agree with Waverider to a point. The other part of me knows a lot of seemingly very stable and confident people who work hard to make their non-monogamy rs work well. I think some people definitely get into them for the wrong reasons and that probably shows through because those reasons will come out eventually. I think the toughest part is that the dynamics of a rs with a BPD sufferer adds so much extra emotion to a situation that is already difficult to figure out for any couple. Also, as many have pointed out, BPDs seem to change their minds about where they stand on these things. That's something I've experienced and it even makes me nervous about embracing the concept more fully because I'm afraid I'll put the work in to make it a reality for us and then he'll change his mind. We have an 8 year age difference, so I already know it may be easier for me to find interested parties. Or so I've heard it's easier when you're younger.

@Haye, I have read your other post on this subject and it definitely seems like your SO struggles with this aspect of desire and I know all too-well that not communicating about being open can ruin any chance of it working. And I agree that it takes a lot of work and you mightn't find another person to find that balance but if it's something that you enjoy I think you should look for a person with whom it might work. (I'm not advocating leaving your SO, just saying in the event that you are looking for a new SO ever in your life.)

[vortex of confusion]

That's something I've experienced and it even makes me nervous about embracing the concept more fully because I'm afraid I'll put the work in to make it a reality for us and then he'll change his mind. We have an 8 year age difference, so I already know it may be easier for me to find interested parties. Or so I've heard it's easier when you're younger.

That has been my biggest struggle. My husband's continually changing his mind about whether or not it was okay for me to see somebody else. If I didn't have a r/s with anybody else, it wouldn't have been a big deal. I am not sold on non monogamy any more than I am sold on monogamy. There are a lot of grey areas for me in both camps.

The question that I have had is: During the times when he wasn't okay with the arrangement, was I cheating by continuing to communicate with my lover? There were times that I would cut it off with him or go NC to honor my husband's wishes but that wasn't fair to me and it wasn't fair to my lover. It was catering to the whims of my husband and it created a lot of resentment.

I don't think age has anything to do with it. I don't think being older has much to do with it. But, I do know that guys seem to have a lot harder time finding potential partners. My husband had very little luck finding a partner that worked for him. That complicated things because he had turned things into a competition of sorts. His inability to find someone was very invalidating for him and compounded a lot of existing problems.

[Bloomer]

@Vortex, When you mentioned grey areas in monogamy, are you talking about things like people's preference/comfort-level in relation to flirting or  having friendships with the opposite sex (for those who are straight)? Can you elaborate on that comment?

So I'm going to go ahead and own some of my issues here. I am fiercely competitive and it is hard for me to frame non-monogamy in a way that won't make one partner better/worse in some aspect compared to another. My H always says he doesn't ever think of things in this way but it is hard for me to understand how you couldn't be conscious of it on some level. For example, "LoverA is a great kisser, maybe better than my SO." I also am very competitive with myself so of course I want to be my primary partner's most amazing everything. I have a hard time thinking that I will end up being the less enjoyable sex partner, or even worse, that I might be less enjoyable intellectually/emotionally. Has this come up for anyone else who has tried a monogamish rs?

[vortex of confusion]

@Vortex, When you mentioned grey areas in monogamy, are you talking about things like people's preference/comfort-level in relation to flirting or  having friendships with the opposite sex (for those who are straight)? Can you elaborate on that comment?

I think I was thinking more specifically of how one defines infidelity. That has been something that I have been thinking about for years. Early in my relationship with my husband, he used porn all the time. I would wake up to him looking at porn and would ask him why he didn't wake me up or come to me for those things. I felt like it was infidelity. I didn't have a problem with light flirting as long as it wasn't rude or disrespectful towards ME. A lot of people draw the line at "cheating". But, how does one define cheating? I have heard all sorts of stories. A year or two ago, I posted some ads online and talked to a bunch of different guys. It was really eye opening for me because so many of them didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing. My husband knew what I was doing and we talked about it. These guys were in monogamous relationships and were posting and answering ads without the knowledge of their wives. A lot of them were looking for a female friend to email while at work. A lot of them wanted somebody that they could sext with without any emotional ties or actual sex.

To add to this, when my husband lost his job because he was looking at porn at work, I talked to his mother. She is a very rigid Christian type. When I tried to tell her my concerns about porn her response was, "Oh, his dad looked at that stuff all the time. I didn't have a problem with it because that meant he would leave me alone." I was floored. This same person has a cow over the thought of cheating and she is so concerned about whether or not my husband or I have cheated. She has no clue that our relationship has progressed to being open-ish. So, that adds a lot of confusion for me because it seems that some people are so caught up on ONE thing, such as cheating, but fail to consider that there are so many other things that can be an impediment to a healthy, monogamous relationship.

And, like you said, there are issues around all relationships outside of the marriage. How much time/energy is expected from a partner? I know plenty of people that get overly jealous of the time a partner spends in completely platonic relationships. Basically, I think it boils down to the grey areas in a monogamous relationship having to do with what each partner expects, wants, and needs. 

So I'm going to go ahead and own some of my issues here. I am fiercely competitive and it is hard for me to frame non-monogamy in a way that won't make one partner better/worse in some aspect compared to another. My H always says he doesn't ever think of things in this way but it is hard for me to understand how you couldn't be conscious of it on some level. For example, "LoverA is a great kisser, maybe better than my SO." I also am very competitive with myself so of course I want to be my primary partner's most amazing everything. I have a hard time thinking that I will end up being the less enjoyable sex partner, or even worse, that I might be less enjoyable intellectually/emotionally. Has this come up for anyone else who has tried a monogamish rs?

I have dealt with that to some degree. I keep coming back to the question of: If I, or my partner, were that great, why would there ever be a need to go outside the marriage. I don't know if I am the best or not. I would like to say that I don't care. Part of me, would love to be the best that my husband or my lover has ever had. But, the reality is that it doesn't really matter. My lover meets certain needs of mine that my husband doesn't. I try to avoid the comparison by looking at what need each partner fills and what kind of connection I have with each of them. The relationship that have with each of them is so unbelievably different. I see a lot of similarities between my partner and my husband but there are also soo many differences. And, each one of them speaks to a completely different part of me. Being able to see and acknowledge the complexities of the human person helps me to avoid the comparisons as well.

I will admit that I had a real problem when my husband was only looking for another sexual partner. I was like, ":)ude, really? If you are bored in our bedroom, I will be glad to do whatever it takes to spice things up." I am not going to go into details but I think we have both identified that I am way more adventurous and curious than him. In that area, he needs somebody that is content with things being pretty vanilla.

[Grey Kitty]

I am fiercely competitive and it is hard for me to frame non-monogamy in a way that won't make one partner better/worse in some aspect compared to another. My H always says he doesn't ever think of things in this way but it is hard for me to understand how you couldn't be conscious of it on some level. For example, "LoverA is a great kisser, maybe better than my SO." I also am very competitive with myself so of course I want to be my primary partner's most amazing everything. I have a hard time thinking that I will end up being the less enjoyable sex partner, or even worse, that I might be less enjoyable intellectually/emotionally. Has this come up for anyone else who has tried a monogamish rs?

I think the sort of "competition" model is one that fundamentally doesn't work well in a poly relationship. It is far better to try NOT to make those sorts of comparisons, or at least try not to get lost in them.

Do you try to compare how much fun conversations are with various of your friends? Do you try worry that your friends have people who are more fun to talk to than you are? To me it is pretty clear that attitudes like that would really mess up your friendships.

Comparing how lovers kiss (in a competitive way) will mess up those relationships too.

You don't view your husband as an interchangeable, replaceable entity like a cellphone, which you will upgrade to a newer, better model, or replace when you drop it and the screen breaks, without a second thought other than the expense. (FYI, I think it is healthy to view a phone that way!)

[Haye]

You don't view your husband as an interchangeable, replaceable entity like a cellphone, which you will upgrade to a newer, better model, or replace when you drop it and the screen breaks

Love your comment, Grey Kitty! So true. One me and my now ex-husband learnt that NRE (new relationship energy) can be damaging, specially if your polyamorous spouse has nobody else than you to talk about the new crush. Admiring something in the new person isn't same as comparing, but comes quite close. You know, stuff like "oh but she has this lovely smile / is so intelligent" etc. I have to say my ex had to repeat a couple of times how each person is unique and we all come as a package deal.

@Boomer – I honestly don't know what I want when it comes to relationships. Not looking for more people in my life right now, but I'm not saying an absolute no never polyamory again, either. Who knows, perhaps my SO works his way through some odd r/s model. I've told him repeatedly it has to be honest for all parties and sounds like some of it has actually gotter through.

[vortex of confusion]

Love your comment, Grey Kitty! So true. One me and my now ex-husband learnt that NRE (new relationship energy) can be damaging, specially if your polyamorous spouse has nobody else than you to talk about the new crush. Admiring something in the new person isn't same as comparing, but comes quite close. You know, stuff like "oh but she has this lovely smile / is so intelligent" etc. I have to say my ex had to repeat a couple of times how each person is unique and we all come as a package deal.

Sharing the new relationship energy with your spouse can sometimes create resentments. I used to get so irritated with my husband because he would meet these new people online and would then come tell me all about it and go on and on and on about them. Whether or not he was comparing us or not was irrelevant. The thought that would run through my head was, "But you don't get this excited about me and I don't recall you ever being THIS excited."

I think something else Grey Kitty said is invaluable and that is how you think about a regular friend. I have tried to pose things like that with my husband. Would you give a regular friend this much detail? Would you rub a friends nose in the excitement of meeting somebody new? That is exactly what it felt like to me. One of my husband's online friends was coming to town and that was all he could talk about for three or four days. He was actually telling me about the angst he was having over whether or not to sleep with her and he was soo unbelievably excited and he was thinking about the plans and where to go and what to do and he was being very proactive and capable. What made it even worse is that this started a day or two after our anniversary. I had asked him to plan a date for us but he dragged his feet, he wouldn't call my mom about babysitting, and he acted like going on a date with me was the most painful thing in the world for him. So, for him to turn around and get that excited and put that much effort into this other person was really, really painful for me. In actuality, it was almost worse than a comparison because it reinforced those feelings of "he doesn't really love me" and "I am totally replaceable."

I've told him repeatedly it has to be honest for all parties and sounds like some of it has actually gotter through.

Honesty is soo important and something that my husband was not doing. He wasn't being honest with me about the nature of his relationships and he wasn't being honest with the other women about the nature of our marriage. It was a mess and it looks like the can of worms is going to get opened again soon as my husband told me yesterday that he is posting and answering ads online again. [/quote]

[waverider]

I reckon this thread must have some folks scrathing their head at this whole different world of thinking that is completely incomprensible to them     

[Grey Kitty]

Love your comment, Grey Kitty! So true. One me and my now ex-husband learnt that NRE (new relationship energy) can be damaging.

Sharing the new relationship energy with your spouse can sometimes create resentments. I used to get so irritated with my husband because he would meet these new people online and would then come tell me all about it and go on and on and on about them. Whether or not he was comparing us or not was irrelevant. The thought that would run through my head was, "But you don't get this excited about me and I don't recall you ever being THIS excited."

... .

What made it even worse is that this started a day or two after our anniversary. I had asked him to plan a date for us but he dragged his feet, he wouldn't call my mom about babysitting, and he acted like going on a date with me was the most painful thing in the world for him. So, for him to turn around and get that excited and put that much effort into this other person was really, really painful for me. In actuality, it was almost worse than a comparison because it reinforced those feelings of "he doesn't really love me" and "I am totally replaceable."

This stuff is more complicated than monogamy. It is harder for some people. It is easier for others.

There are a lot of err... .bad relationship habits that are harmful for a monogamous relationship. They will do harm, but the relationship may muddle along with low-level simmering problems instead of full-blown explosions and crisis.

When you add more people, but use the same (poor) level of skills, it does seem to blow up faster and louder!

And a untreated pwBPD (like VOC's husband) operates at that level. To make a poly r/s work well, when you are experiencing the NRE (feeling of falling in love/obsession), you should work hard to take actions to make your existing partner feel important and valued.

This is the time to make sure you do something really special for your anniversary, not blow things off and fail to plan the date, acting uninterested.

Blowing off your anniversary would still hurt, but without the contrasting excitement over the new partner it wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

[vortex of confusion]

And a untreated pwBPD (like VOC's husband) operates at that level. To make a poly r/s work well, when you are experiencing the NRE (feeling of falling in love/obsession), you should work hard to take actions to make your existing partner feel important and valued.

This is the time to make sure you do something really special for your anniversary, not blow things off and fail to plan the date, acting uninterested.

Blowing off your anniversary would still hurt, but without the contrasting excitement over the new partner it wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

Thank you for this Grey Kitty! I find it very validating. I have been trying to figure out the difference between how I have handled things versus how my husband has handled things. He interprets my upset over things as, "You have a double standard and want to have a lover but don't want me to have one." I have tried to communicate with him that his behavior towards me was very rude and insensitive. I tried to explain that any new "friends" should be in addition to rather than instead of. One of my poly friends explained that it shouldn't ever be a situation where you make your partner feel like you are replacing them. And that is exactly how I felt. My husband made no effort to up his game or do anything to show me that he was still invested in our relationship. If anything, he checked out of our relationship even further.

Since he is going down this rabbit hole again, I wonder how to separate out the issues so that it doesn't sound like I am trying to have a double standard. All of my concerns in the past were met with him accusing me of having a double standard. I am thinking out loud here: "I continue to treat him well. I still cook his food, wash his clothes, and try to make sure that he knows that he is special to me. If he wants me to be okay with him seeking out other people, then I want him to return that consideration to me. He still hasn't earned my trust back. He still isn't done with his 12 step work in his sex addiction program. I am wondering what the heck he is thinking. Is it realistic to think that he can post and answer ads without getting sucked into the addiction/compulsions again? He seems to think so. I am not comfortable with it at all but know that the fact that I have a lover will be brought up and it will be used as an excuse for him to do whatever he wants."

My thinking is still really muddled here. The issue isn't with him seeking out somebody else. The issue is with how he treats me and how he plans to continue his recovery work in his 12 step program and with his therapist.

[Grey Kitty]

Thank you for this Grey Kitty! I find it very validating.

 You are welcome.

My thinking is still really muddled here. The issue isn't with him seeking out somebody else. The issue is with how he treats me and how he plans to continue his recovery work in his 12 step program and with his therapist.

Yup. You nailed the real issues here. I'm a big fan of focusing on specific behavior toward you. It makes things more real and more practical, and I find more effective at changing the situation. (Should we move that to a thread not about non-monogamy?)

Is it realistic to think that he can post and answer ads without getting sucked into the addiction/compulsions again? He seems to think so. I am not comfortable with it at all but know that the fact that I have a lover will be brought up and it will be used as an excuse for him to do whatever he wants.

What can you do about it?

Can you validate him by expressing honest interest in what he is hoping to find by answering ads?

Can you avoid bringing up how badly it has gone before, and how you don't trust him to do differently? Can you avoid biting on comparisons to what you are doing with your lover?

[vortex of confusion]

Yup. You nailed the real issues here. I'm a big fan of focusing on specific behavior toward you. It makes things more real and more practical, and I find more effective at changing the situation. (Should we move that to a thread not about non-monogamy?)

That might be a good topic for another thread. The thread probably has some people pretty creeped out. 

What can you do about it?

That is what I am trying to figure out. I think my best course of action is to continue to do what I have been doing and try to keep the focus on how it impacts ME directly. If I keep the focus on me, then I am less likely to try to save him if he starts obsessing again. I need to focus on MY boundaries and what I will or won't accept. If he goes back to ignoring me and going gaga over somebody else, then I need to have a plan of action so that I can step away and say, "I will not listen to this as it is too hurtful." (Or something like that.)

Can you validate him by expressing honest interest in what he is hoping to find by answering ads?

I have expressed a genuine interest in what it is that he wants. I am genuinely curious. I do have to stop myself from asking the question: "What are you getting from them that you can't get from me? Is this my punishment for setting a boundary about you calling and contacting me constantly through out the day?" I haven't said that but it is on my mind. He says he gets lonely at work and wants somebody to talk to during down times. I can understand that to a degree as he has an office that has no windows and is pretty isolated from everyone else.

I have started using FormFliers suggestion of "Help me understand" and that seemed to work really well in the conversation last night. I wasn't asking a bunch of why questions but was more, "I am trying to understand".

Can you avoid bringing up how badly it has gone before, and how you don't trust him to do differently? Can you avoid biting on comparisons to what you are doing with your lover?

I try to avoid bringing up my lover. I try to keep things in terms of how I am acting towards my husband and how my husband is acting towards me. If the focus is kept on: "How am I treating my husband?" or "How is my husband treating me?" then I think that leaves less room for him to start telling me that I have double standard. In a conversation last night, I tried to be vulnerable and tell him that I have a lot of fears. I wasn't trying to be accusatory or mean. It was more of a pouring my heart out trying to let him know that some things are still pretty raw from the last go round. I didn't say that I didn't trust him to do differently. I asked him what tools he planned to use to keep him from repeating the same behaviors. I was trying to bring up my concerns but at the same time give him an opportunity to think about some of this stuff. I wanted to put a few things on his radar without being a jerk about it.

[jedimaster]

The thread probably has some people pretty creeped out. 

Actually I'd be satisfied with a bit of active monogamy these days    I find it interesting that with all the other traits my uBPDw has, hypersexuality isn't one of them.  Just my luck    Carry on, and good luck.

[vortex of confusion]

Actually I'd be satisfied with a bit of active monogamy these days    I find it interesting that with all the other traits my uBPDw has, hypersexuality isn't one of them.  Just my luck    Carry on, and good luck.

Hypersexuality is only a good thing IF the other person wants you and does not use you as an object. It is pretty darned hurtful to know that your partner is expressing that sexuality with something or someone other that you.

[Bloomer]

I think the full-blown sex addiction would add an element to a non-monogamous relationship whether a partner had another mental illness or not. I think any addiction in a relationship tends to leave the counterpart feeling cast aside. With sex addiction, you are literally being cast aside for another person and that seems more emotionally invasive than another addiction, with say drugs, to me. I really feel bad for those of who combating sex addiction alongside BPD. 

[jedimaster]

Actually I'd be satisfied with a bit of active monogamy these days    I find it interesting that with all the other traits my uBPDw has, hypersexuality isn't one of them.  Just my luck    Carry on, and good luck.

Hypersexuality is only a good thing IF the other person wants you and does not use you as an object. It is pretty darned hurtful to know that your partner is expressing that sexuality with something or someone other that you.

And I totally agree.  I hope no one thinks I was doing anything but adding a little levity.  I'm sure it is a difficult if not devastating thing to deal with.  All kidding aside, I really have no idea how I'd deal with it if it was a factor in our r/s.  I hope all of you on here who are dealing with it find your answers.  No harm intended.   

[braveSun]

Hypersexuality is only a good thing IF the other person wants you and does not use you as an object.

Vortex, I think that hypersexuality is the same thing than a sex addiction. Is it?

If it is, than the pwSA will objectify the people he/she is attracted to. Even the main partner. It's part of it. I have heard heart wrenching stories of partners of SA crying over the fact that after all the years of therapy work they both did to maintain their relationship, their SA would come to them trying for them to do this or that this way or that way, and they, as 'normal mill of the road human people', could never compete with the easily available fresh supply out there. The partner gets to feel immensely devalued. There is a preoccupation with the 'image of lovely'. Indeed, it's very strong winds to compete against when one's body is aging, especially when female. Women are especially sensitive to body image issues.

Also the porn aspect, which sometimes partners of SAs will try to incorporate into the bedroom. It usually does not work as much as the internet thing because the partner is a real person. He/she comes with joys and pains. The internet models are fantasies. It's easy to easin' the B&W painting of models who don't talk back, never get tired or sick, never make a mistake (at least in the image they project). Over time the objectivisation in the addict's brain is what they need to get off on, and it feeds on the level of adrenaline involved.

I've heard of stories where the pwSA could not feel desire for his/her spouse, but only with strangers into the particular of highly depersonalized context, or in illicit context (deceit is more exciting, danger is more exciting, etc... ). This coupled with a low performing executive control function in a pwBPD makes it very hard to maintain any long term relationships. 

Like other addictions, the overall compulsivity and the loss of executive control over the issues can get pretty devastating. A lot of deceit and a lot of shame is involved.   

IMO it's hurtful to the recovery of a pwBPD because the effect of idealization enhance the splitting  (B&W thinking, where one person gets painted all black and the other gets to be all white). Just think of a supercharged splitting. Various partners also get competitive against each other if there is a strong emotional push/pull component attached. Think about how the pwBPD will tend to tell different stories to different people to obtain the needed love, and then people may feel compelled to turn against each other over time. Especially since the pwBPD is not necessarily good at object consistency (it depends on individual cases of course).

There is also the dimension of love addiction, which is a very similar process addiction where a person uses the dopamine rush effect of falling in love in order to cope with stress and other complications.

My SO went in a big series of acting out her addiction when my mother was hospitalized, diagnosed of cancer, and I had to fly out of town for a week, thinking I might need to stay there longer. She has the super volatile trigger effect on birthdays and holidays too. And when I start or change a boundary. She almost never yells at me when she is angry. 

It is pretty darned hurtful to know that your partner is expressing that sexuality with something or someone other that you.

Yes it is.

[vortex of confusion]

Hypersexuality is only a good thing IF the other person wants you and does not use you as an object.

Vortex, I think that hypersexuality is the same thing than a sex addiction. Is it?

I think they are more or less the same thing. In the context it was originally used, I thought it was being used in the context of meaning a really high sex drive. I have read lots of conflicting information about sex addiction and hypersexuality. I think that is why sex addiction isn't in the DSM manual used by the mental health professions. Some people don't think that sex addiction is real. That is neither here not there in my opinion. I have tried to keep focus on my husband's sexual behaviors that directly impact me.

Like other addictions, the overall compulsivity and the loss of executive control over the issues can get pretty devastating. A lot of deceit and a lot of shame is involved. 

I have listened to my husband talk about his shame. At different times, he has told me things like, "You just don't trip my trigger any more." My husband's "thing" is that he loves the idea of his wife being with other men. At one point, he and I had a big blow up because I refused to be his personal wh**e. I refused to be promiscuous. I will have ONE lover and only one lover and I will only share details that I am comfortable with sharing.

I have a lot of stories of my own of how my husband's sexual addiction has damaged our relationship and killed my self esteem.

[braveSun]

I think that is why sex addiction isn't in the DSM manual used by the mental health professions. Some people don't think that sex addiction is real. That is neither here not there in my opinion. 

Yes, are other addictions in the DSM also, like drug/alchool? I never bother to check that much about the DSM. For me it's the compulsivity and the suffering that comes with it. I think about it as a condition someone has. Not a disorder in itself. It's not the same than say when people are conscenting to have an open relationship but are still mature enough emotionally to maintain a good intimacy. I don't have much experience with non-monogamy, so I could not extend on this. But the suffering of a SA and their partner is real. That I know for sure.

My husband's "thing" is that he loves the idea of his wife being with other men. At one point, he and I had a big blow up because I refused to be his personal wh**e. I refused to be promiscuous. I will have ONE lover and only one lover and I will only share details that I am comfortable with sharing.

I see what you mean. That's a good example of objectivisation. When you as a person doesn't seem to be enough, it's time to put some boundaries. You seem to have handled it strongly for yourself.

I have a lot of stories of my own of how my husband's sexual addiction has damaged our relationship and killed my self esteem.

Oh yes!... It's very hard on the partner. And it's nearly impossible to develop a healthy intimacy when there is recurring disconnect between the partners, or when there are breaches of trust.

My SO one time said to me that she was in love with an ideal woman in her mind. It was food for thoughts... Now she says that her addiction is a part of her BPD, like one of the manifestations of it. Sometimes I think it's a way for her to deal with her anger, loneliness, boredom, difficult emotions.