An apology of sorts

[Notwendy]

RH, you don't have to lie about going out with friends.

Her feelings are her feelings not yours, and you don't have to manage her feelings.

Hiding or playing down your plans to keep her from being upset is managing her feelings.

You also don't have to tell her or anyone else your plans if you don't want to.

She may call you and try to talk you out of it, or make up or find some reason to get you not to go, but her feelings are not your problem. Go and have a good time.

You are doing nothing wrong by spending time with friends, male or female. You are not a married man. Some relationships with female friends might not be so appropriate if one is in a marriage, but that depends on the friendship and the situation. Going out with a group of friends when you are married or in a relationship isn't cheating, and people can be married and also have friends.

Do not sacrifice your friends for a relationship. A relationship that demands you sacrifice your friends and interests is not generally a healthy one.

Keep your friends, and your plans. Have fun. Don't let he spoil it. When you are with your friends, you can turn off, or down your phone. If there is an emergency, people will leave messages. Her emergencies are not your responsibility.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ripped Heart]

It's most certainly thrown her out of sync, been a very interesting evening since that call.

Had one of her "friends" contact me by email to tell me I'm being extremely foolish. When I asked why, the response back was for offering to buy her a brand new UHD Curved 3D TV. Told her I knew nothing about the TV and 20 mins later got a phone call from BPDgf telling me about this TV she has seen and wanted my advice on it. I may have AS but even that is blatant 

I've been caught out with that in the past where I have bought her things but that's going too far especially right now. Given the price of it too, it's 2 months salary for her, she is deeply in debt, already committed herself to her daughters birthday present next month and the weekend away with her friend as well as all the bills she is behind on. Something is going to break and that's the part where I've stepped in before and saved the day.

She also wanted to tell me she had no plans this weekend but given that I do, she is going to "try" and have a good weekend.

In October, my daughter lost her grandfather. My exgf (who is very normal) contacted me as it was her father. She was in a bad place and knew our daughter needed the support but knew she too wasn't in a position to give her what she needed and wanted my help which I gladly gave. BPDgf, took that as a plot for me and exgf to get back together and caused major disruption on the day. She wanted the attention on her and I ended up trying to support all 3 of them, 2 with valid reasons and 1 because she didn't like the attention being away from her. Support my exgf by taking some of the pressure off her to allow her space to grieve, supporting my daughter because it was a huge loss for her and supporting BPDgf because she was having a childish tantrum.

So given that, I have no doubt I will get phone calls tomorrow night and at some point the outburst will come.

[patientandclear]

Hi again Ripped. First, sorry about the information overload you noted above. I get how it's exacerbated by AS but I actually think that state is pretty characteristic of many of us trying to figure out the whys and hows of "not making it worse" and handling a r/s with someone wBPD. I found it exhausting to keep straight many of the shoulds and shouldn'ts.

Something you wrote above confuses me. You wrote that you aren't sure that you would go back to a r/s with someone who cheated. Sounded like you thought you wouldn't absent an apology, taking responsibility, and maybe some space and time.

But here you are taking her back right away without any acknowledgment. She's denied it. And you know the denial is untrue.

I think you'll want clarity around this. Why is this r/s causing you to behave differently than you think you would generally?

[Ripped Heart]

PatientandClear, thought about this a lot over the course of the evening and I think there are so many factors at play.

First and foremost, I believe I'm still in denial and so want to believe she is telling the truth. I also feel a lot of guilt for how I found out because had I not found out that way, I still would have been none the wiser. I know that makes no sense at all because she did what she did but I think some of this is because of my own guilt.

The earlier gf that I mentioned, when confronted was honest about what she did and funnily enough, even though that hurt, we still parted on good terms. I at least understood why she did what she did even if what she did wasn't right. If anything my sister took it harder than I did because it was her friend and she cheated with my sisters best friend. I was the one who ended up consoling my sister over it.

Another part of me is because I went to hell and back with exN/BPDw, to breaking point and beyond. I didn't know about BPD at the time and I also carry a lot of guilt around how I reacted to some things because I dismissed a lot of what she said to me simply because it made no logical sense. Given that r/s this one has been much kinder and nicer even though it's had it's moments. I think there is a part of me that knows I failed my exN/BPDw and trying to atone for it this time around. I mentioned about doing things differently to my T at the time and he said, there was nothing I could have said or done that would have changed the outcome. However, given how my mind works, I can't fully understand that unless I've experienced that otherwise it will play on my mind like an itch.

I also know there are things I cannot bring to a healthy relationship which NotWendy touched on below. Something I've also discussed with my T is that I spend a lot of time and energy learning people and adapting but very few have taken that time to learn me. I guess in some respects I do understand how much effort it would take someone and would feel bad for them to go to that trouble. BPDgf is perhaps the closest person outside of my friends who has taken that time, all be it in some form of mirroring.

Had a long conversation with her "friend" tonight and I'm most definitely seeing a pattern emerging which has brought some clarity and answers along the way. Yet still I feel that I can do something by working on myself first and at least then I know I did the best I could. I'm finding boundaries very confusing but I also see from your posts where I join in the dance and right now it's still an automatic response for me. She jumps in the water and I'm right there to jump in and rescue her. I have a lot of work to do on myself to stop that from happening but for now I'm starting to see the patterns and identify some of the manipulation.

I know for a fact that at some point in the next month she is going to ask for money because she's struggling. I don't think for one minute she will ask me for the money for the TV, instead I think she will miss bill payments, car tax payments, run out of gas and electricity and ask for money towards them instead whilst she spends elsewhere. I also know that her "try" to have a good weekend was aimed towards me cancelling my plans to take her somewhere instead and then I will get 2 days of silent treatment after being cast aside.

I also have an element of fear towards her right now from what I saw tonight. Her "friend" is also a friend of a girlfriend of my BPDgf's exbf (quite the tongue twister) it seems she sent her a message last week to tell her she has been sleeping with her ex behind his girlfriends back. I was sent screenshots of the messages That isn't true but that's the level she is at right now where she is trying to break up relationships out of revenge for people leaving her. She also had another exbf, who she got the RO against arrested again this week after telling police he has been in contact again breaking his RO. The truth is that she is the one who has been contacting his family members. So in a sense, given what I have going on right now, there is a level of fear because I don't want or need the hassle.

In terms of taking her back, I haven't seen or spent any time with her apart from when I took her for dinner the other week. It's been solely text, phone and email so there is still an element of distance. I thought I was doing quite well before but then put myself back in it after the suicide threats and rejoined the dance. I felt that if this is how things are going to be, then I need to continue to make the changes I do and see what happens from there. I just find a lot of things confusing right now.

[patientandclear]

I sympathize completely with the confusion. I am still confused after years of daily reflection, research, investigation ... .

I'm glad you are identifying part of your feelings about all of this as fear of her reprisals if things go off track in her mind. Not allowing fear to drive choices is super important to making sure you don't live your life in a box of somewhat else's making. Scary I know to take the risk of busting out of that box--but that's no way to live.

For what it's worth, you do seem to be in a r/s. Even if you haven't seen each other, there is daily confiding about stuff in a way that really only occurs btwn partners. And there is planning for date-like activity. For all intents and purposes, you are in the r/s but just acting kind of distant some of the time. Not saying that being in the r/s is not a viable choice ... .Just urging that you not kid yourself that you are not in a r/s with her.

[Grey Kitty]

Ripped, I agree with P&C--You are in a relationship with her still, given the amount of daily contact an knowledge of her daily life.

First and foremost, I believe I'm still in denial and so want to believe she is telling the truth. I also feel a lot of guilt for how I found out because had I not found out that way, I still would have been none the wiser. I know that makes no sense at all because she did what she did but I think some of this is because of my own guilt.

Hoo boy, do I know that feeling. It is so hard to accept that somebody you love chose to do something that hurts you so much. 

I know for a fact that at some point in the next month she is going to ask for money because she's struggling. I don't think for one minute she will ask me for the money for the TV, instead I think she will miss bill payments, car tax payments, run out of gas and electricity and ask for money towards them instead whilst she spends elsewhere.

You know this will happen. I believe you. Time to prepare for it in advance.

Do you want to bail her out financially when she asks?

[Ripped Heart]

Yes, it's still a relationship in one regard, hence why I'm between the undecided and staying boards. However, it's not like the relationship was in terms of being a physical relationship is perhaps how I meant to say it.

As far as bailing her out, that isn't going to happen. She asked me straight out last month and because she asked and because I could, I did. That was so she could buy the gift for her other daughters 18th birthday. She did promise to pay me back for that at the end of this month but I don't see that happening to be honest.

She doesn't usually ask outright either, her plan of attack is usually to have a meltdown or call in tears because everything is so overwhelming, that she is cold and hungry and hates her life. It's at that point where I offer and she gracefully accepts. It's the same pattern over and over again but the difference now is that I see it, so I know what is coming over the next month and the backlash that will also come when I say not this time. Am I prepared? Not in the slightest but since I know what's coming I have some time to prepare.

She has studied me in that she knows that when my exgf asks for anything for my children, I respond. They are my children and I won't let them go without. BPDgf has been annoyed at me in the past for that because it's like exgf has control, in a sense she does but again it's not about her it's about my children and if I can help out in any way, I do.

So BPDgf has started using that tactic too. As with last month, it wasn't about her, it was about her daughter and that's why I helped her out. I have my own issue around that as despite her kids not being mine, I wasn't prepared to see them go without either. In November I covered all of her bills so that she had money to get the gifts she wanted for her kids, only she spent the money she did have on herself and then had a meltdown over the fact she had no money to do what she wanted to do.

I know it's coming in January, given what she has set herself up to pay out again for herself with her eldest daughters birthday coming up. So my suspicion is that she is going to make a deal about her bills and struggling based around the fact she needs money to get her daughters gift next month and it's certainly not cheap. She ruined Christmas for eldest daughter, ended up with her daughter going home on Christmas Day upset and I fully understood from her daughters side.

Imagine for example, that you keep telling your child you are getting them a TV for Christmas (wasn't a TV but just as expensive and not that her daughter asked for what she was going to get her either, BPDgf just had an impulse to keep telling her daughter what she was going to get her) but on Christmas morning, there was no TV, instead your only gift is a TV remote with the promise of a TV when you have some money because things have been difficult financially. But at the same time showing off the new leather dining chairs and dining table, the new coffee table, the new TV stand that you bought yourself. That's exactly how Christmas Day went down. Daughter was upset because it's exactly the same thing every single year.

I know I enabled a lot of that behaviour and honestly, I would have bought her daughters gift myself rather than see her upset but I had to let her do that herself. I covered her bills so she would have enough and she still made a mess of things financially. I made sure she wasn't going to let other daughter down last month but I'm not going to do it again next month. I don't have it in me so I have to prepare for the backlash because I know it will also be coming my way.

[Grey Kitty]

It's the same pattern over and over again but the difference now is that I see it, so I know what is coming over the next month and the backlash that will also come when I say not this time. Am I prepared? Not in the slightest but since I know what's coming I have some time to prepare.

She's got a history of successfully rolling straight through this boundary of yours. She's feeling very entitled to this sort of rescue on your part. So yes indeed, you will need to batten down the hatches and prepare for a big storm! You know this.

If I get the dates right, this will hit toward the end of January, so you should have at least a week to get ready, and perhaps even practice some of the tools you will need ahead on smaller issues.

You aren't seeing her face-to-face or living with her today. That means that whatever she throws at you will come by phone, text, or email. Which brings me back here:

Grey Kitty - Not answering is not an issue for me but hearing the phone ring causes a level of anxiety, same with a text coming through. hence why when I've mentioned NC, it's not been as a "punishment" but as a way for me to control my own feelings of anxiety. I've already discussed the calling back when I can with her but it doesn't change anything and what you said about me telling her I won't call back and ignoring them is what I thought I had been doing.

If you are feeling hurt, anxious, and upset, then your boundaries are not working. We're here to help you figure it out. Before I suggest a more detailed plan, would you elaborate a bit more on two things?

1. What sort of hurtful things do you expect her to say in these exchanges?

2. What aspects of this interaction cause you anxiety that you need to protect yourself from?

[Notwendy]

If hearing the phone ring and seeing text messages makes you anxious- what can you do to keep your anxiety down?

One suggestion would be to turn off your phone for a period of time ( you decide) and then check it when you wish so that for at least a while you are not disturbed by messages.

Remember, a boundary is what you do to protect yourself. You can't stop her from calling. You can turn off your phone.

[patientandclear]

Ripped, as usual, I'm going to tell you what I think, hoping it doesn't feel too challenging.

First, as to infidelity and r/ship status: I'd sum up the current situation as -- she has no accountability to you, as she has done things you generally feel would preclude you resuming a r/ship, and yet you seem to have resumed a r/ship. Right now she remains a central if not the central figure in your life and most of the time you are allowing yourself to make it all line up by accepting that what you know happened (infidelity), did not happen. (My memory is that it was serial infidelity not just this latest incident). This degree of murkiness over what you are to each other and what you each are entitled to expect from the other is very very fertile ground for additional hurt (for you both actually, though you are the one I care about).

Second, about helping her financially. I sadly have a ton of experience with this, involving my exH, not my BPDexbf. My exH is unemployed in his mid40s and seems to have no concept that he is responsible for supporting himself. To get money from his parents or me, he does what your gf does. He calls with a pathetic picture of how scared/hungry he is, manipulates threatening adverse consequences for our daughter if I don't help him out, threatens to re-home the dog I stupidly helped him get after years of pleading from our daughter ... .

The bottom line is that you can't help her be a good mom to her daughters. Only she can do that. When you bail her out on this gift stuff you do the opposite--you enable her to be a crappy mom. (This stuff really strikes a chord with me and I just feel fury on behalf of her daughter at Christmas.)

She knows the kid stuff and the bills push your buttons and that's why she doesn't prioritize them with her own money. Because she knows you will.

My 10 year old is at the point of begging her grandma and me not to give her dad any more money (I stopped 2 years ago) because it is preventing him from standing on his own two feet. Maybe he won't and will end up homeless; but for sure he won't if we keep saving him from the need to make hard responsible unsexy normal regular people choices.

For her sake and her kids' sake as well as yours, I'd urge you to let her know now, super clearly, that you can no longer be a bank. "It's bad for our r/ship and does you no favors for me to compensate for your choices."

[Ripped Heart]

Thank you all for your messages, they do make a lot of sense. Patientand Clear, yours is straight forward and not challenging at all.

Yes, there is serial infidelity. However, the information of what happened in September came from 3rd party so its a tough call in what to believe there. I know at that time she did pull right back so there is a very likely chance the information is true but cannot be validated. What I do know because of evidence is that December definitely happened.

I promise that I will not be a bank to her this time around. I did feel for her in the financial department because I've been in her shoes after I left the military but in the same respect, I got myself on track. The way I viewed it was that I earned in 1 month what she earns in a year so felt I could provide what she was asking for. What I realised is that her expectations and her belief in what her standard of living should be far exceed what I would even allow myself. Its completely unrealistic and its something she has not been able to understand in several years. We work with what we have and if I were to lose my job tomorrow I wouldn't expect the same standard of living as I have now. Instead I've been enabling her to continue by providing but that's my own rescuer/codependency issue to deal with. The only way that will be possible is to break the action thus breaking the cycle.

P&C I'm really sorry to hear about your own situation. It has given me a huge insight into what I'm doing wrong and how I'm enabling her through my own actions. I sincerely wish you all the best and know it must be difficult for you and d10 in that situation.

NotWendy, that's kind of what I've been doing, either had my phone on silent or off and check it periodically. Unfortunately it's also my work phone so does need to be on through the week but I can control how I deal with it on evenings.

Grey Kitty, I've been accused of being useless when I've not helped her out in the past. Told I do nothing for her, get sarcastic comments, told that her life is worthless and she should just end it. Occasionally some name calling or that I'm a waste of space.

The anxiety comes from not knowing which one of her is going to be on the phone. The night before last was about looking in to the TV for her. Told her it was late and I would look through the day. Kept my word and sent her a text with what I found, only to get a sarcastic response back. Basically, the price she was telling me the other night sounded too good to be true. I wondered if it was legitimate or could be knock off goods. She wanted me to find out for her so I did. Almost certain its stolen goods so responded and told her that. What I got back was "Could have told you that, not what I asked for, but hey nothing new there" I think what she wanted was for me to say I would buy it rather than look in to it.

I also think she is still angry because I went out tonight so unsure which person I will be greeted with tomorrow.

[Grey Kitty]

NotWendy, that's kind of what I've been doing, either had my phone on silent or off and check it periodically. Unfortunately it's also my work phone so does need to be on through the week but I can control how I deal with it on evenings.

If you are getting too many calls (or texts) from her, you could block her.

A less severe version would be to make a special ringtone for her. Silence. (Record 5 seconds of silence to make the ringtone!) When you want to mute her, set that ringtone for her. You could set it so her texts use that sound too.

Grey Kitty, I've been accused of being useless when I've not helped her out in the past. Told I do nothing for her, get sarcastic comments, told that her life is worthless and she should just end it. Occasionally some name calling or that I'm a waste of space.

The anxiety comes from not knowing which one of her is going to be on the phone.

When I figure out what I'm afraid of, I can better deal with it.

In this case... .if you realize that you can hang up and protect yourself from the abusive version of her, that may well cure your anxiety.

When she starts saying this sort of thing to you, how long do you stay on the phone and listen to her? Do you stay on the phone until she winds down?

[Ripped Heart]

When I figure out what I'm afraid of, I can better deal with it.

In this case... .if you realize that you can hang up and protect yourself from the abusive version of her, that may well cure your anxiety.

When she starts saying this sort of thing to you, how long do you stay on the phone and listen to her? Do you stay on the phone until she winds down?

I did start blocking her number and then unblocking when I was ready to deal with anything that came through. Though others pointed out that was perhaps not the best way to deal with the situation as then I was controlling the situation and not giving her the opportunity to communicate back. The issue I have on my phone is that it sends me a message to tell me I have a blocked text or call and as I only have number blocked, it was the same as not blocking her. I will have a look at your suggestion of whether I can just silence her calls when I need to take a step back.

As for how long I stay on the phone, I usually listen until things calm down but then that leaves me feeling frustrated because when I've addressed this before it usually starts back up again. So now I just listen until its all out of her system and not interrupt or defend my corner.

This is yet another area I have difficulty understanding from something formflier mentioned. If I was to hang up or tell her that behaviour hurts my feelings, is that not invalidating her feelings? However, if I stay on and say nothing, that encroaches my boundary but at the same time justifies her feelings at that moment. That's what I can't get my head around is the beat approach to this kind of situation. I have JADEd before and that's made things worse so I know that's not the solution.

[Grey Kitty]

As for how long I stay on the phone, I usually listen until things calm down but then that leaves me feeling frustrated because when I've addressed this before it usually starts back up again. So now I just listen until its all out of her system and not interrupt or defend my corner.

My recommendation is to have a firm and consistent boundary of not listening to that stuff. Here would be my script:

Her: "You are useless... .(etc.)"

You: "I won't listen to that from you." (If you use the phrase verbal abuse with her, you can call it that.)

If the next statement is abuse, say "Goodbye" and hang up.

If she calls back one time, you might answer... .and see if she jumps back into it or not.

If she starts back up, say "goodbye" and hang up.

If she calls back a second time immediately, I would stop taking calls--Don't answer until your phone has been quiet for at least 15-20 minutes. (The adrenalin reaction takes that long to fade; consider that the minimum time to calm down.)

This is yet another area I have difficulty understanding from something formflier mentioned. If I was to hang up or tell her that behaviour hurts my feelings, is that not invalidating her feelings?

Using a boundary to protect yourself takes priority over not invalidating her. When you are getting off the phone to get away from the tirade, you don't need to tell her how you are feeling or why this isn't acceptable to you.

You described the anxiety of not knowing which version of her you will get. When you have the 'good' version of her, you won't be criticized like that, and can try harder not to invalidate her, and to validate her.

[formflier]

Using a boundary to protect yourself takes priority over not invalidating her. When you are getting off the phone to get away from the tirade, you don't need to tell her how you are feeling or why this isn't acceptable to you.

So... .if you are really interested in using tools when you exit this conversation... .you may want to try to say... "I will call you back in 10 minutes.  Hopefully we can talk properly then"

That can take up a lot of air time... she may try to interrupt... .

If interrupting is an issue... GKs approach is best. 

But... .I'll reiterate the point... .a boundary is not for the other person.  A boundary is for you... .to protect you... .

If others get mad... .get sad... .get happy... .it doesn't matter.  You protected yourself and your values.  Let the chips fall where they may...