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Author Topic: Why don't I believe it when she tells me she will hurt me?  (Read 1266 times)
Grey Kitty
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« on: January 16, 2015, 10:53:22 AM »

I think this is a larger pattern, although the most obvious example of it is in my current struggle with my wife's cheating, and similar prior behaviors on her part.

I told my wife that what she did hurt me. I even told her that I couldn't come back to our marriage if she continued being in contact with the guy. She did (after a lot of time and effort and struggle on both our parts) decide she was cutting contact with him.

Now she has told me that she is still friends with him, that she doesn't just cut off friends, and that at an important event for us that will happen in the summer but requires planning already, she will be friends with him. Sorta implying that she won't seek him out, but won't avoid him either. (She has also said she isn't going to be a lover with him; I don't trust this statement.)

So why am I hoping that she will change her mind? Why am I not believing what she says she will do? I've told her very clearly that this isn't acceptable to me, and she's not saying that she will do anything different for me.

Why don't I believe her?
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2015, 11:26:31 AM »

I’ve found a layer of cognitive dissonance. My wife says she loves me. I’ve told her very clearly that this behavior would hurt me. I expect her to consider that love and choose NOT to take the action which will hurt me.

Looking at myself, I’ve considered and even done things that are at least difficult for my wife. To protect my core self, my core values. Or perhaps to protect my core delusions and my ego in some cases, if I look more deeply. All this while loving her.

Perhaps I don’t understand/believe what drives her to do this.

Perhaps I’m in denial.

I am really struggling to find MY role in finding far more hope than either her words on the subject or her prior actions on the subject seem to justify.
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2015, 11:37:34 AM »

I’ve found a layer of cognitive dissonance. My wife says she loves me. I’ve told her very clearly that this behavior would hurt me. I expect her to consider that love and choose NOT to take the action which will hurt me.

Sending you a hug! 

A similar issue has come up for me in the last day or two. I keep trying to communicate my hurt and confusion to my spouse but he doesn't seem to get it. I think I expect my husband to consider the love and my feelings because that is what I would do. I think that is what a lot of people would do. I think I am projecting my thoughts and feelings onto him because accepting the reality of it all is entirely too painful.

In my mind, I think I am playing with this:

If he loves me, he will take a certain action. If he doesn't take that action, then that means that he doesn't really love me. If he doesn't really love me now, does that mean that our whole relationship has been one big fat lie? If it has all been one big fat like, what the heck am I still doing here?

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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2015, 11:58:01 AM »

If he loves me, he will take a certain action. If he doesn't take that action, then that means that he doesn't really love me. If he doesn't really love me now, does that mean that our whole relationship has been one big fat lie? If it has all been one big fat like, what the heck am I still doing here?

HEY! That's MY rabbit hole. What are you doing down here?
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2015, 01:29:49 PM »

We think this because that is what we would do, and what we assume typical people do. We assume that mothers who love their kids don't abuse them and take care of them. We assume that if our spouse loves us, they will consider our feelings.

A disordered person is different. I think our spouses are in emotional fight or flight a lot of the time. Biologically this state turns off a person's higher thinking functions and focuses on survival- "me me me". When they do this, there is only "me me me".

I have been in this rabbit hole with my H for years. I could not imagine why someone who says he loves me, who I believe loves me and acts like it a lot of the time could also be so nasty, insensitive and hurtful. I must be a slow learner since I grew up with an example of this in my mom. However, it took me not being reactive enough myself to observe my H in one of his rages. At this moment in time, he believed, fully, that he was under attack- by me, only I was not doing anything to him. He had no idea how much I was hurting because that part of his brain was shut off. Although the advice is to walk out, which I will do next time. I am glad I got to see this because I was able to make sense of it- finally.

As to cheating, I think this is part of the disorder, perhaps the fear of abandonment, the affirmation of being desirable, the control of having someone emotionally tied to you, the ability to tweak with a spouses feelings and the high of an illicit relationship, and her escape from painful feelings.

Sometimes there is truth in comedy and I've mentioned a hilarious Madaea video (on you tube) where she ( Tyler Perry) is talking about relationships and says " If someone shows you who they are, believe them."

They do love us though, and can see where the boundary is. I guess the approach to cheating is how much you are willing to tolerate it and be in a relationship with her. I don't think we can stop someone from cheating. It is more about them than us. All we can do is decide what we are going to do about it.
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2015, 01:38:57 PM »

Why don't I believe her?

I'll take a stab at answering... .

Because you look back and see how far your r/s has come... .you can't believe that after all the years... and the improvement... that she would really throw it away over some other guy... .or "this issue".

Here is the thing... .I don't think she will through this away.  But... I think... that by and large... .I think the way you think... or close.  So... .how close do you think I am?

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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2015, 01:47:18 PM »

I think that once someone does something that hurts us, it is a subconscious feeling/reaction that they will likely do it again. Even though this might not be true.  I think knowing about BPD and behaviors associated with it makes us a little leery. 
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2015, 02:48:49 PM »

GK, I am so sorry that you are going through this very painful experience in your marriage.    When our spouses behave in unloving ways, it triggers all kinds of feelings and trauma in us.  I think that the lack of empathy is the hardest part to deal with.  I don't have any magical answer to make your wife learn empathy.  It has taken working with the couples MCs that we are working with for my dBPDh to really start to "get" empathy.  I remember the beginning of the ordeal and the justifications and entitlement that my dBPDh had for his behavior.  The only thing that I can say to you is to hold to your truth and your value.  Try not to get into whether this means she loves you or not.  What I have been hearing you state is that your truth is that it hurts and is unacceptable for you in this relationship.  How much more time are you willing to give it for your wife to work this issue out?
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2015, 11:33:57 PM »

I don't know why I don't believe my wife. Or maybe I should say I didn't believe my wife.

I'm feeling heartbroken, because I do believe her tonight. And I keep saying that I can't stay in a marriage with her if I do believe she will do this.

I think the saddest thing I saw today was this description on wikipedia relating to attachment styles, which I'd been reading about.

Excerpt
The events begin the same way. Something provokes anxiety in a person, who then tries to reduce anxiety by seeking physical or psychological closeness to a partner. The partner rebuffs the request for greater closeness. The lack of responsiveness increases feelings of insecurity and anxiety. The person then gets locked into a cycle with the partner: the person tries to get closer, the partner rejects the request for greater closesness, which leads the person to try even harder to get closer, followed by another rejection from the partner, and so on. The cycle ends only when the situation shifts to a security-based strategy (because the partner finally responds positively) or when the person switches to an attachment avoidant strategy (because the person gives up on getting a positive response from the partner).

It is exactly what is going on. I am upset about my wife's cheating. I try to get close to her and ask her to stop. She gives me a negative response, and I spiral farther down.  :'(

As I should be going to bed (but haven't yet), I got one last text from her: ":)id you have a good day?"

I can't bring myself to answer. I did have some good moments. But more of the day, I felt miserable, lonely, depressed, hopeless, and ineffective. And got tired of that and checked out for a bit.

I don't want to appear to be a pitiful miserable guy to her.

I don't feel safe being vulnerable with her right now.

I don't want to cheerfully lie about how good I feel.

I'm back to feeling somewhere between stuck and lost.

I'll be in touch with her tomorrow. I'll probably be feeling something different.
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2015, 07:30:43 AM »

 

GK,

IMO... it is positive that your wife reached out to you... .she chased you.  And her concern was your feelings.

I think that is positive thing.

I'm assuming this is not a normaly... nightly thing... correct?
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2015, 09:37:01 AM »

Well, today is a different day, and I'm not feeling so overwhelmed as I was.

FF, yes, she is reaching out to me most days. Throughout this whole saga, she's been showering me with loving messages. (She did cut back or stop when I was NC and told her that I needed time and space apart)

What she hasn't done is shown regard for my feelings regarding cheating, especially in her actions.

She has several times said she couldn't come back to our marriage, and given "reasons".

Throughout this, she has cared for me, and wanted to work something out, or at least not lose the friendship we have. Lately she sounds more interested in making things work. (But not offering me anything new regarding the topic of this thread)
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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2015, 11:18:31 AM »

We think this because that is what we would do, and what we assume typical people do. We assume that mothers who love their kids don't abuse them and take care of them. We assume that if our spouse loves us, they will consider our feelings.

[... .]

I have been in this rabbit hole with my H for years. I could not imagine why someone who says he loves me, who I believe loves me and acts like it a lot of the time could also be so nasty, insensitive and hurtful. I must be a slow learner since I grew up with an example of this in my mom. However, it took me not being reactive enough myself to observe my H in one of his rages. At this moment in time, he believed, fully, that he was under attack- by me, only I was not doing anything to him. He had no idea how much I was hurting because that part of his brain was shut off. Although the advice is to walk out, which I will do next time. I am glad I got to see this because I was able to make sense of it- finally.

Guys... .maybe this is a little off-topic, but I have seen two things this week that really  troubled me. One was miniseries Olive Kitteridge, and the way the main character, Oliver, treats everybody. Including her husband. I won't tell what happens because it will spoil the experience of watching.

The other one is movie Wild, and the way she deals with her mom, and what she learns afterwards in life about her and her mom. I cried like a baby on this one.

Both of them connects deeply to the question: "why does he/she hurt me if he/she loves me?" If anyone should watch any of them, please PLEASE let me know.

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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2015, 11:40:49 AM »



Grey,

Couple things to "challenge" you on... .to make sure you are looking at things clearly... .

Couple questions too...


Well, today is a different day, and I'm not feeling so overwhelmed as I was.

Do you understand why you were overwhelmed?  Does your understanding... or lack of understanding... .bring you to think about any changes... .or anything you want to think about.

FF, yes, she is reaching out to me most days. Throughout this whole saga, she's been showering me with loving messages. (She did cut back or stop when I was NC and told her that I needed time and space apart)

This is an action... .this is a positive action.  I actually take her actions cutting back... .as even more positive.  She respected your feelings.  My guess is that she would have felt better if she had been in more communication... .but set aside her feelings... for yours.  (again... some guesswork there)  ... .I don't see anyway to make this look bad... .or negative.  Do you?

What she hasn't done is shown regard for my feelings regarding cheating, especially in her actions.

I would want to clarify that this is past actions... correct?  How many times has she disregarded your feelings on this... .and actually cheated?  Not at all saying even once is ok... .but just want to make sure the correct "facts"... ."metrics" ... .are out there.

And since she left the guy... .what actions has she taken that are against your values?

She has several times said she couldn't come back to our marriage, and given "reasons".

This is an action... .as in talking is an action.  However... .this is part of the "order to the disorder"... that they say things in odd ways... .to get a reaction... .probably an unhealthy reaction from you. 

Just want to make sure we are looking at this same way? Is there another more appropriate way to look at this?


Throughout this, she has cared for me, and wanted to work something out, or at least not lose the friendship we have. Lately she sounds more interested in making things work. (But not offering me anything new regarding the topic of this thread)

So... .I'm seeing evaluation of her talk in this last thing.

Can I challenge you to take a look at the time period from when she left the guy she cheated with... .until now.  Evaluate her actions.  Do they look like the actions of someone that wants to stay... .or go?

Hang in there Grey!  I think you are doing great with this!

  


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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2015, 12:22:19 PM »

Well, today is a different day, and I'm not feeling so overwhelmed as I was.

Do you understand why you were overwhelmed?  Does your understanding... or lack of understanding... .bring you to think about any changes... .or anything you want to think about.

I did find something that helps me understand. I found my fear in the rear view mirror this issue.

I found hope and confidence in the specific context where my wife is telling me she WILL see this guy even if I do the whole event without her as if we are separated/divorced. That I can survive and even thrive and grow in that worst case scenario.

Then I saw my fear. That I was dependent on my wife. That I couldn't succeed without her. And at the same time, I knew that I couldn't do this event with her while afraid/certain that she would see the guy she cheated with. I felt stuck.

Excerpt
What she hasn't done is shown regard for my feelings regarding cheating, especially in her actions.

I would want to clarify that this is past actions... correct?  How many times has she disregarded your feelings on this... .and actually cheated?  Not at all saying even once is ok... .but just want to make sure the correct "facts"... ."metrics" ... .are out there.

And since she left the guy... .what actions has she taken that are against your values?

Current actions appear to be OK. She told me she cut contact. She hasn't told me that she resumed contact. (And she doesn't have a history of that flavor of deception. Sometimes she tells me about it slightly after the fact, but she hasn't previously done anything like sneaking around... .that I have learned of to date.)

Her current statements are NOT OK. She is telling me that she is still friends with him, and that when she sees him, the friendship will resume. This IS what she told me over the Christmas holiday, and she's stuck with that statement since then. This is NOT what she told me around Thanksgiving, at which point I told her that cutting all contact was my minimum requirement for resuming our marriage.

Changing her story around Christmas is another betrayal to me!

And yes, this is a pattern with her. Other instances of 'cheating' involved kissing and HEAVY make-out sessions with a spiritual/sexual connection, plus two that she has admitted were emotional affairs.
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2015, 12:25:54 PM »

Evaluate her actions.  Do they look like the actions of someone that wants to stay... .or go?

Her actions look like someone who wants to stay... .with the freedom to have her choice of sexual/romantic partners, without my consent in the matter, and without regard for my feelings in this matter.
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« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2015, 12:57:08 PM »

Her actions look like someone who wants to stay... .with the freedom to have her choice of sexual/romantic partners, without my consent in the matter, and without regard for my feelings in this matter.

GK allowing for boundaries being fluid; is there a way within the context of your wife's reality and the polyamorous aspect of your marriage that this impasse could be wholly about the disorder and separate from how your wife feels about you?

If this could be a possibility is there any way that you could accept some part of this being a component of your marriage?

Is there a way that you could soften your boundary that might help you both stay married?
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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2015, 01:01:29 PM »

Are you just afraid to let go, and admit the marriage isn't going to make it? Going around and around with this hoping she'll reverse course and never cheat again, while she's proving she will continue... .When does that cycle end? Why not say, "There's a line here, you've crossed it, please honor our commitment or I can't live that way", and then stick with it? Let her live her life, be 'free' or whatever she calls it, and do the same for yourself. Why keep your self on hold and repeatedly be hurt by her? Why wait for her to make this choice for you? She wants to be/has been/still is with other people. Unless you're cool with that, be done with that. Best of luck.
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« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2015, 04:33:25 PM »

Her actions look like someone who wants to stay... .with the freedom to have her choice of sexual/romantic partners, without my consent in the matter, and without regard for my feelings in this matter.

GK allowing for boundaries being fluid; is there a way within the context of your wife's reality and the polyamorous aspect of your marriage that this impasse could be wholly about the disorder and separate from how your wife feels about you?

If this could be a possibility is there any way that you could accept some part of this being a component of your marriage?

Is there a way that you could soften your boundary that might help you both stay married?

"Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" would say it is important NOT to soften a truly-felt boundary like this. If you do you've essentially signed a blank check.

I think the opposite seems like a better chance to save the marriage. Make crystal clear that this line will not be moving; that you really care about this value; that you view her current statements as a violation of a commitment she made you to secure your continuing in the r/s in Nov.; that her current terms are not ones under which you will continue to be married.

Then she has a clearly defined choice. And if the marriage continues it will be on terms that don't make you feel sick to your stomach.

There is no guarantee this will save the marriage. She gets to choose. (As GK is aware my ex did not choose to stay connected to me on terms that worked for me.)  But it could. And if it does, you'll have something that works for you.

I hear super loud and clear in your posts, GK, that you need signs that she cares enough for you to give up other things that hurt you even though they might be fun and rewarding for her. That's a completely reasonable position--other people might feel like they want to try to work on giving up their hurt, being less proprietary, not needing to be "primary." But you are already nonconformist about r/ship rules and structure. You are not rigid on such things. If this is a core value and her current position has run into your bedrock, that is fine. Your feelings make sense and they are fine. Trying to change them to save the r/ship seems perilous to me. You don't want to abandon yourself.
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« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2015, 06:18:29 PM »

songbook, sweetheart, P&C:

This came up in another topic... .

I don't really see them as opposing views but things that can be done in tandem.  Carnes' views have evolved over time but having the addict own their behavior is the first step in relationship repair and builds a bridge between the partners.  After that it is much easier for a partner to offer forgiveness and they both learn to address and meet their needs individually and as a couple in a positive way.  In our case, it didn't exactly work that way.  Probably because of BPD and not just SA, I had to get to a place of acceptance and understanding before my dBPDh was willing to really own his behavior and make amends to me.  As long as I had reactivity and wasn't understanding my dBPDh couldn't be vulnerable enough to own his behavior.

I'm looking for the alternative path:

1. Stuffing my betrayal, and letting go of my values and my boundaries isn't a solution. (Ask me how I know  Smiling (click to insert in post) 0

2. Sticking to a harsh boundary of ending the relationship with my wife feels like a game of emotional chicken--which one of us will blink first, and will we have a flaming crash first? Most importantly... .I've been trying this, and it isn't working--My wife may 'sacrifice' herself for our marriage, but she can't keep doing that, and it will pop up again... .if she even makes the offer.

3. Since she is currently THREATENING new cheating (in my view; I'm sure she sees it differently) as opposed to being in active contact with him, she has stood down a tiny bit.

I will stand down and stop pushing her on the boundary, and work on validation, as she *IS* really feeling upset about things involving me. I won't say that I'm not hurt by the betrayal; I won't say that contact with the guy doesn't matter to me... .but I will try to avoid bringing it up except in the context of MC sessions.

For the record, my words have been crystal clear on this boundary. My actions are mixed. I've not cut contact, not filed for divorce. At various times I've cut contact way back, zero for a while. I've started reaching out with more loving and accepting things.

This morning I had a conversation where it felt like I was able to say things that sounded right. (About other issues... .part of the kitchen sink she's throwing at me)

P&C, I'm not so much trying to change her... .as trying to give her room to change herself into the person she wants to be. She is relatively self-aware, so there is a chance here. And I am clear with myself... .there are real limits of what I will be accepting.

I'm not going to lose sight of that. If she resumes a romantic r/s with the guy, I'm done. I can't find a way to live with that. If she cannot make amends sufficiently that I have a reason to trust her to have zero contact with him at the event coming up this summer, I will make plans to do the event separately from her. For us, separating at this event is almost as big and provocative as filing for divorce, and doing so may make divorce inevitable.
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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2015, 06:44:16 PM »

 

So... .are you open to continuing to by polyamorous?  I think answer is yes... .but want to make sure.

Can you think back in time... .what could she have done... .before she met the guy and cheated... .to get you to be ok with it?

If I remember... you didn't trust him... .or you trusted him less than her... something like that.

Where I am going with this... .is how can she think about the future... .and figure out when poly is ok... .and with who.

How is that going to look?
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« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2015, 07:11:17 PM »

Can you think back in time... .what could she have done... .before she met the guy and cheated... .to get you to be ok with it?

I wanted to provide some more food for thought to ponder. . .It seems that you are okay with having a poly relationship. What is it about THIS specific guy that leads you to want her to cut contact with him? I know that I have had that same reaction to some of the people that my husband has interacted with in the course of our experimentations.

If there was somebody that I had a horrible reaction to and didn't want my husband to be with, it was usually because there was something about that person that sent me into protector mode. I wanted to protect my husband from that person. Also, I was afraid that person would try to manipulate my husband or convince him of things that he wouldn't come up with on his own. It is me being a protector and rescuer. I was trying to protect him and rescue him from those big bad evil women that don't know him like I do. They don't have his best interests at heart and I do. Not sure what to do with this but it is something to think about. My husband chose me so his tastes and decision making abilities in the romance department can't be that bad.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Since my husband is posting/answering ads again, I am having to dig into why I was okay with some people and not others. I am not sure if backing up a bit would be helpful or not. I know you don't want to lose your wife but I also know that you want to find some kind of solution to the current impasse that both of you will be able to live with in the long run.

Excerpt
Where I am going with this... .is how can she think about the future... .and figure out when poly is ok... .and with who.

And, also, this is part of the "who" but it needs to be pretty clear how much input Grey Kitty has in her choice of partners. It has to be something both parties can live with and stick to.
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« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2015, 07:41:42 PM »

Sticking to a harsh boundary of ending the relationship with my wife feels like a game of emotional chicken--which one of us will blink first, and will we have a flaming crash first?

It's not a game if you're not playing one. It's not a 'harsh boundary', either, that's a FOG-like way of seeing it. Don't do that. This is an important part of who you are and what you offer/need in a relationship! Whichever choice she makes, she could be more respecting of that and not take it so personally (even though it came into being an issue because you're protecting yourself from her harmful actions). What are the deeper reasons you're afraid to speak up with her? That you feel you have to supplicate (if that's the right word here) so much? If by 'blinking' you mean opening your eyes and seeing things for how they really are, and then acting accordingly, by all means both of you please blink away. {I know, I know, this is the 'Staying Board'... .} What are your chances with such reluctance? The 'crash' has already occurred, hasn't it? Yes, there could be others. The vehicle (your marriage) could be totaled. It could become even harder and more painful for you to be able to walk away. It sounds like there will come a time when you'll have to make this decision, to stay or go, and really stick with it. For yourself, not to be against her. The best way is to do what's best for you. Are you going to wait for her to decide for you, or... .?

She's making threats, throwing the kitchen sink, cheating, continuing to do things she knows are hurting you... .You're saying the best thing to do is validate her? Make it easier for her? I'm not judging this, I feel for you. I tried it, too. Ultimately causing resentment on both sides more than bringing us closer together/resolving the disordered problems. The patterns were too solid. The resistance to being 'chained down' too strong.

I wonder how much of this is like an addiction to you more than something you really do believe in as being actually possible to work through/overcome. Being honest, if you were a friend sitting here I'd say "Wake Up. Get Out. If she finally comes around, that'll be on her to get there. Maybe you'll still be open to being with her, but maybe you'll have moved on long ago. It Is What It Became."

Perhaps you've read this but your posts remind me of the following clear and helpful way of looking at things, separating fact from fantasy:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

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« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2015, 08:28:43 PM »

To Vortex and FF's points ... .I've read GK saying that this guy creeps him out. But I think it may be useful to set that aside, because what has always sounded like the deeper point is that he asked her not to do it -- showed her his deep pain around it -- and she did it anyway.

And THEN he was drawing some clear boundaries and considering the implications of what happened ... .Putting some distance between them of his making ... .And she fetched him back by saying she would meet his needs and cut contact with this guy because she valued GK and heard that that's (part of) what he needed to feel safe and cared for and heard (paraphrasing).

And THEN she switch up on him after he softened his stance and is now saying she's going to do the very thing that most hurts him.

I think the issue is less poly and more about caring what he feels and needs. GK, it sounds to me like you are sorely feeling the need for her to care what you need. Which is ... .Really normal and healthy.

GK, I don't see much difference btwn what you said is not an option (stuffing your feelings) and what you just said you think you'll try (setting aside your effort to convey your boundary and paying attention to how you've hurt HER feelings). I think you're saying you're not abandoning your boundary because first, she isn't currently cheating again yet that you know of; and second, you have already been clear.

But what about a boundary about her threatening to break your boundary? Isn't that pretty much causing the same pain as if she actually does it? It's the same message of "GK I know you hate this and I nonetheless am planning to go ahead with it." Allowing those to go on, given that she got you back involved in a deeper way by promising otherwise, while simultaneously working hard yourself to care about and show caring about her feelings, seems a lot like stuffing your feelings, to me.  
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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2015, 08:55:13 PM »

Excerpt
P&C, I'm not so much trying to change her... .as trying to give her room to change herself into the person she wants to be. She is relatively self-aware, so there is a chance here. And I am clear with myself... .there are real limits of what I will be accepting.

GK, it sound like you are describing limbo.  Part of my recovery work involved accepting being in limbo for a time.  It is the truth for a while, limbo gave us each space to recover and heal.  Seems that you have been in limbo for a while and are looking for a way to start navigating out of it?  At least that is what it seems to me.  I put my only real advice on the other thread  Just get very calm and clear about your non-negotiable boundaries.  When I was really clear on that boundary for myself, I could state it in a loving and clear way.  I didn't use a divorce threat.  I just was clear that to be in this relationship I would need active recovery for both of us and no infidelity.  Everything in the relationship is negotiable, except that I want real intimacy.  I am now having al of my boundaries met with no resistance and it isn't about trying to control my dBPDh, it is just my truth.
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« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2015, 09:18:53 PM »

Missy, your advice seems very sound.

The hard question which comes to pass for some of us is what happens when you do that and your partner does NOT meet your needs, lovingly stated.

GK has lovingly stated his needs (it really sounds like) and is getting a direct response of ... .I am going to violate your boundaries. I think we can forget that there is not always a unifying ending after boundary definition. When the other partner respects those boundaries and stays, that's an encouraging story. But that isn't always what happens. When it doesn't, people are in a hard place. And suddenly it feels pretty appealing to abandon that boundary ... .
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« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2015, 09:38:52 PM »

When I was really clear on that boundary for myself, I could state it in a loving and clear way. 

I really, really wanted to pull this out. I find that the more clear I get on some things, the easier it is for me to communicate those things. I am not sure how much of it is a change in my husband and how much of it is me changing my focus and finding new ways to approach things. My husband and I went round and round for a while about whether or not to try to save the marriage. That issue has been tabled. We try not to talk about that at all.

Excerpt
Everything in the relationship is negotiable, except that I want real intimacy.  I am now having al of my boundaries met with no resistance and it isn't about trying to control my dBPDh, it is just my truth.

I eventually want real intimacy but I am finding that is too much to ask for and focus on right now. My intermediate step is demanding that I be treated with consideration and respect. I have posed it as: Would you treat a friend like this? If you had a room mate, how would that room mate react if you did certain things? I am trying to find ways to depersonalize discussions so that I (and my husband) can see things more objectively. I really want my husband to see that his expectations of me are unrealistic. Just like I do not think it is realistic for Grey Kitty's wife to expect him to be okay with the lack of consideration that she is showing towards him. She isn't willing to give up a friend but seems to be willing to give up a person that has invested 20 or so years in her. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 

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« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2015, 09:46:51 PM »

Excerpt
When it doesn't, people are in a hard place. And suddenly it feels pretty appealing to abandon that boundary ... .

Sometimes they don't come along.  However, abandoning my own boundaries is something I am no longer willing to do.  I realized that since my dBPDh wasn't used to me keeping my boundaries, that he would test me.  Since he wasn't living at home, I was very clear that we wouldn't live together and couldn't work on our marriage without fidelity and recovery.  It took several months for my dBPDh to realize that he didn't want to live that way anymore.  We started marital therapy while he was still talking to other women, he came clean within a coupe of weeks and was able to put an end to that kind of behavior.  While we were in that limbo state of not knowing, I kept myself busy and stayed with my boundaries.  It is entirely possible that we could have ended up divorced.  I had to let go of the outcome and stay true to myself.  I have seen this approach work for several couples. The tools from this site helped me in this because I did learn validation, which was something that was missing.  My dBPDh moved closer and closer towards me the more I validated his  emotional state and ignored the threats.  So, it has been a combination of Carnes approach and the tools on this site for BPD.  
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« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2015, 09:50:12 PM »

1. Yes, this guy creeps me out. (I don't need to discuss that in this topic.) My wife's betrayal -- the violation of my consent in getting involved with this guy is the real problem.

2. I'm open to polyamoury, even interested in pursuing my own side of it. I don't have the energy to devote to a new r/s while dealing with what's in my marriage. I hope my wife can do the same for a while. (Again, I don't care to discuss hypothetical romantic partners in this topic.)

3. Limbo is for a while. We've now got a natural deadline--my wife is staying in the area for January and can extend to February. [Visit to help a friend having surgery being delayed for now, and only being about a week] In March, she's going to have to decide where she's going.

I don't think either of us is going to handle limbo past February very well. There may well still be recovery work then... .but if there is no real progress, I don't think either of us will have much patience. (Especially if this MC seems good enough to keep working with. If we have to restart with another, that could delay something)

Sticking to a harsh boundary of ending the relationship with my wife feels like a game of emotional chicken--which one of us will blink first, and will we have a flaming crash first?

It's not a game if you're not playing one. It's not a 'harsh boundary', either, that's a FOG-like way of seeing it.

I wasn't saying it was a game. It isn't for me.

I didn't say the boundary was harsh either. The enforcement action I'm currently contemplating--ending my r/s IS harsh.

What I'm saying is that if I choose to play by those rules, I'm putting the choice to swerve or crash our marriage in my wife's hands. And that MY unwillingness to swerve will have an impact on her decision, and a negative one at that.

Here's the why/how I'm willing to blink.

For me the issue is this cheating. My wife doesn't want to give that up or spend time in a place where she admits that she was wrong / behaving badly there... .so we do have a conflict there.

This isn't her MOST IMPORTANT issue. We both wrote something about "why we were in therapy this day" and there wasn't time or space to write a book. My didn't choose to write something about me not letting her have the r/s with this guy as her version of the problem.

I can work with her on what she thinks is her most important issue. I don't remember clear details, but most of them sound like things I want to do anyway, along the path of getting less enmeshed / codependent with her.

Excerpt
But what about a boundary about her threatening to break your boundary? Isn't that pretty much causing the same pain as if she actually does it? It's the same message of "GK I know you hate this and I nonetheless am planning to go ahead with it."

MissyM said this in the other thread... .

Excerpt
Therapists told me to just ignore that divorce talk and restate my truth in a loving way.

I'm willing to consider the two as mostly the same that way.

GK, I don't see much difference btwn what you said is not an option (stuffing your feelings) and what you just said you think you'll try (setting aside your effort to convey your boundary and paying attention to how you've hurt HER feelings).

Well... .the actions look about the same at the time. The difference is the motivation and how I feel about it.

One is what I would do out of fear of losing the r/s, and would make me very resentful.

The other is what I would do out of desire to make every effort I can to save my r/s, and represents an active choice on my part... .and would be something I would not regret later.

Extra clarification: I do NOT plan to hide my truth or my feelings. I do plan to state it in as loving a way as I can, and avoid provocative statements about consequences or enforcement actions. (I do not need to mention divorce.)

I cannot be OK with my marriage if my wife is in contact with this guy.
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« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2015, 09:52:42 PM »

  She isn't willing to give up a friend but seems to be willing to give up a person that has invested 20 or so years in her. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 

VOC,

I think you have found a point that should be worked through.

This is definitely a "help mu understand thing... ."... .because you are right... .it doesn't make sense.

Especially... .especially... because GK is not saying that poly is bad... .it just needs consent and comfort of both parties.

Wow... .I just read VOC's quote again... .that really sums up the "issue" that I've been scratching my head about... .

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« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2015, 10:00:56 PM »

Excerpt
My intermediate step is demanding that I be treated with consideration and respect.

I get what you are saying but demanding respect has never worked for me, I tried it for quite a while.  What works for me is realizing what I is ok for me and what is not ok for me.  As a benign example, I don't like it when my husband is a slob, is he disrespecting me when he is a slob?  No, because it isn't really about me but about him.  Therefore I just ask him to pick up something if he leaves trash sitting there or I pick it up.   Either way, it is my choice how I decide to handle it.  If I am going to pick it up myself then I am not going to be resentful about it because it is the choice I am making.  My sponsor has helped me get better with this thinking.  Everything I do is my own choice, no one else has the power over me to make me feel any particular way.

Excerpt
Extra clarification: I do NOT plan to hide my truth or my feelings. I do plan to state it in as loving a way as I can, and avoid provocative statements about consequences or enforcement actions. (I do not need to mention divorce.)

I cannot be OK with my marriage if my wife is in contact with this guy.

Exactly how I would approach it.  It seems somewhat counterintuitive because there is this feeling that I wanted to make my husband accept my very reasonable boundary, but that just never worked.  However, quietly owning it did work.  Not exactly sure why that is except that one way is trying to control my husband and the other is taking care of myself.  Seems like a subtle thing but it made a world of difference.
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« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2015, 12:07:44 AM »

Excerpt
Extra clarification: I do NOT plan to hide my truth or my feelings. I do plan to state it in as loving a way as I can, and avoid provocative statements about consequences or enforcement actions. (I do not need to mention divorce.)

I cannot be OK with my marriage if my wife is in contact with this guy.

Exactly how I would approach it.  It seems somewhat counterintuitive because there is this feeling that I wanted to make my husband accept my very reasonable boundary, but that just never worked.  However, quietly owning it did work.  Not exactly sure why that is except that one way is trying to control my husband and the other is taking care of myself.  Seems like a subtle thing but it made a world of difference.

I'm still struggling--sometimes I feel like I've got this. Other times I feel like I'm lost.

Can you give me some examples of the exact words you used to quietly own your feelings of betrayal?
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« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2015, 08:54:57 AM »

"Validate yourself:

This is too painful and is out of alignment with my own values, I will need to create distance if you are going to continue to take this action.  [/i]

(By the way….”endings" are part of a process.  I think we get too caught up in our own black and white thinking and get panicked that this is THE END or this is THE ONE etc., when it’s really just all one long process that has a lot of openings and closings all along the way. This may be an ending for now. Boundaries do initiate endings.  Sometimes it initiates the ending of something dysfunctional making room over time for something more functional to emerge.  There has to be endings if people are ever to grow.)

Validate him:  I understand that you feel you need to take this action and will continue to do so for your own reasons.

There are so many great things about validation, but one of the things that it does, is put ownership squarely in the owners lap.  Arguing or trying to change or convince someone that they are wrong or need to change because they are hurting us or themselves…immediately distracts from ownership and invites tons of projection and distraction that muddies the water."

GK this is quote taken from a reply by MayBeSo that was given to Haye around issues of infidelity in her relationship. When I was reading your responses these words came to mind and they seem to me to hold a certain poignancy to your 'stuckness' at the moment.
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« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2015, 02:18:48 PM »

Gk, hmmm an example.  Do you mean when my dBPDh would say that he didn't think he was going to be able to live in a fully committed marriage based in recovery?  I wouldn't really address it head on.  I would say that I understood he was struggling and I hoped he chose commitment and recovery.  That I loved him and believed in our marriage.  Then the hard part was to let that drop.  I pretty much gave this kind of answer every time.  I dealt with my pain and hurt myself, with my own therapy.  Then once he said he was committed to working it out, I talked about what I needed in couple's therapy.  Really, the therapists handled getting him to acknowledge he hurt me.  If I tried to address the pain one on one with him, he would shut down (which in turn would hurt me even more). He needed the support to be able to hear me.  That isn't as true right now, his empathy is beginning to improve towards me.
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« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2015, 03:06:40 PM »

Thanks, that example helps.

My wife is both ahead and behind your H right now.

Ahead: She's in couples therapy already; she is trying to make it work.

Behind: She's not even acknowledged that she wants to be in a committed faithful r/s (within my limits, which are a bit broader than yours.)

The example I was looking for was ways of quietly telling your truth about the things that hurt you.

I think my key is to keep it in the form of "I feel... ." or "I can't live with... ." and avoid the active statements of consequences I would impose... .or requests for the sort of amends I want her to make. Demanding she make amends before she acknowledges that she hurt me isn't going to work.
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« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2015, 03:15:05 PM »

sweetheart, I read that thread including MaybeSo's postings with great interest. That kind of validation is something I hope to use.

My wife does have a need for flirting and male attention.

I like the idea of validating that and letting it sit on its own as her thing.

Because it is something on its own, before she and I go down a rabbit hole with it!
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« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2015, 03:30:28 PM »

Behind: She's not even acknowledged that she wants to be in a committed faithful r/s (within my limits, which are a bit broader than yours.)

I know my husband won't commit to anything with regards to our relationship and that has been a source of a lot of confusion for me. Yes, I have one foot out the door so to speak but there is still a tiny part of me that wishes his actions would show me that he wants to be in a committed relationship with me. I am not even looking at limits or anything like that. For now, that is too much to consider and that is why I have had to keep trying to refocus things so that we could find SOMETHING that we could agree on.

Excerpt
The example I was looking for was ways of quietly telling your truth about the things that hurt you.

I am interested in seeing some examples of this as well. I am at a point where I am wondering if "telling my truth" should even involve my husband. I am not clear on this but it is something that I am thinking about. What does telling my truth look like? Does it involve telling my husband and having him understand it? Or, is it more about me knowing it, thinking it, and living it without regard for what my husband is doing?

Excerpt
I think my key is to keep it in the form of "I feel... ." or "I can't live with... ." and avoid the active statements of consequences I would impose... .or requests for the sort of amends I want her to make. Demanding she make amends before she acknowledges that she hurt me isn't going to work.

MissyM probably has way more information about making amends as it relates to the 12 step programs but I do know that acknowledging things comes before the making amends. If a person doesn't fully acknowledge and understand what they are making amends for, then the act of making amends is going to be a bit fruitless.

Here lately, I have been using Form Fliers "help me understand" angle and I have been trying to use it as it relates to me and my feelings. I try to depersonalize it and then bring it back to something more personal. Does that make an ounce of sense?

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« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2015, 03:48:16 PM »

Excerpt
I know my husband won't commit to anything with regards to our relationship and that has been a source of a lot of confusion for me

Vortex, is this ok with you?  Or in your case is it because you feel the same way?  I know that I was ok with that for a short while, while I figured out exactly what I wanted.  I am not ok with that long term, as I believe it is toxic to a marriage.

Excerpt
Or, is it more about me knowing it, thinking it, and living it without regard for what my husband is doing?

Yep,  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)


Excerpt
Ahead: She's in couples therapy already; she is trying to make it work.

Behind: She's not even acknowledged that she wants to be in a committed faithful r/s (within my limits, which are a bit broader than yours.)

Uh, we were in couple's therapy for a very long time (actually most of our marriage off and on).  We just switched to a different style of therapy.  He would be back and forth on wanting to be in a committed faithful relationship.  Yours is complicated with the open relationship issue.  Have you thought of changing that?  It seems to be too grey of a line for a BPD to deal with.  Your BPDw has had real problem adhering to the agreements.  Just a thought and maybe examine this in MC, what kind of a marriage model is actually doable with a BPD?

Excerpt
The example I was looking for was ways of quietly telling your truth about the things that hurt you.

I definitely kept that in MC for a while, when looking for support from my dBPDh.  I phrased it in I feel hurt by your infidelity.  I want us to have a loving, monogamous relationship.  His therapist pushed him to do disclosure and own his behavior, that really wasn't up to me.  I said that I wanted to do my impact statement and receive an emotional restitution letter from him.  Fortunately, all of the therapists involved were very pro this.  The focus was owning my feelings and stating what I would like without purposely shaming my dBPDh.
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« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2015, 05:06:27 PM »

Excerpt
I know my husband won't commit to anything with regards to our relationship and that has been a source of a lot of confusion for me

Vortex, is this ok with you?  Or in your case is it because you feel the same way?  I know that I was ok with that for a short while, while I figured out exactly what I wanted.  I am not ok with that long term, as I believe it is toxic to a marriage.

I am not okay with this long term. I am okay with it now because I feel the same way. If I truly own my feelings and my truth, I am just as unclear and confused as my husband. For a while, I was trying to get him to commit so that it would take the pressure off of me and I wouldn't have to make a decision. Now, I am trying to own my truth, which is, at the moment, I don't have a freaking clue what I want. Some days, I hate my husband and want to get as far away from him as I can and other days I can't imagine my life without him.

Excerpt
Excerpt
Or, is it more about me knowing it, thinking it, and living it without regard for what my husband is doing?

Yep,  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I can see where this is playing out with my confusion. Because I am owning the fact that I can't really make a decision right now, I am not putting pressure on him to make any kind of decision. I am not as focused on what he is doing. I am trying not to look at what he is doing and interpret it as a clear sign of anything. For me, it is embracing the confusion and owning it rather than trying to look and act like I have it all together and am sitting here waiting for my husband to act a certain way in order for me come to some kind of conclusion.


Excerpt
Yours is complicated with the open relationship issue.  Have you thought of changing that?  It seems to be too grey of a line for a BPD to deal with.  Your BPDw has had real problem adhering to the agreements.  Just a thought and maybe examine this in MC, what kind of a marriage model is actually doable with a BPD?

I also wonder, since I am in a similar situation regarding the open relationship stuff, if I am really being honest with myself when I say that I am open to being in an open relationship. My husband and I talked about the possibility of opening things up but neither one of us ever did anything about it. We spent 15 years in a relationship that was completely monogamous and I had no problems with it. What has changed?

I don't recall all of the specifics of GK's situation and how long they were in the relationship before seeking outside interests. I do think it is something to consider when asking the question of "Am I really okay with this?" I haven't come to a solid conclusion just yet but I wonder if it is part of the equation and I am not yet ready to own up to the fact that what I would like more than anything is a husband where he and I are both enough for each other.

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« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2015, 07:58:52 PM »

Uh, we were in couple's therapy for a very long time (actually most of our marriage off and on).  We just switched to a different style of therapy.  He would be back and forth on wanting to be in a committed faithful relationship.  Yours is complicated with the open relationship issue.  Have you thought of changing that? It seems to be too grey of a line for a BPD to deal with.  Your BPDw has had real problem adhering to the agreements.  Just a thought and maybe examine this in MC, what kind of a marriage model is actually doable with a BPD?

Yes, the open relationship issue complicates things a bit. I don't see it as THE problem. My wife was flirting and managed to completely betray me and violate my trust with another guy while we were monogamous. Lots of kissing and making out, with a sexual/spiritual connection going on. The fact that she left her clothes on was something she used to rationalize things, but it didn't make me feel any less betrayed.

[I'm not describing our relatively successful polyamorous relationships in between]

The version of an open r/s that is acceptable to me is one where we both need consent prior to getting involved with anybody else. She violated that one on me last fall. She didn't really claim she had a right to do this because we were polyamorous. She did claim that I was being unfair in not being excited and eager for her to have this opportunity. (Needless to say, I didn't feel any better with THAT rationalization either!)

Changing the agreement isn't going to make it easier for her to stick with it... .unless the agreement is that she is a free agent, with no limits.

She's not stupid. Grey areas on these limits aren't the problem. Her needs that conflict with these limits are the problem.

Sex/Love addiction is a better model, although I'm not going to push that label. Heck I don't think I'll even mention it. My truth is about her behavior, and my feelings of betrayal. If the MC wants to use a label for her behavior, that's his issue. Mention of the BPD label caused enough trouble already. She's half-forgotten that, fortunately. My truth includes that the behavior feels repetitive, and I need something from her to make me trust she's trying to change the larger pattern, not just deal with this one instance.

I may not get any assurance of this sort from her. I'd sure love to see 95% recognition and 5% relapse from her! Right now it feels like 5% recognition, 70% confusion/dodging the issue, and 25% relapse!
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« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2015, 08:05:59 PM »

My truth includes that the behavior feels repetitive, and I need something from her to make me trust she's trying to change the larger pattern, not just deal with this one instance.

What would that "something" be? 
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« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2015, 08:17:53 PM »

My truth includes that the behavior feels repetitive, and I need something from her to make me trust she's trying to change the larger pattern, not just deal with this one instance.

What would that "something" be? 

There was another thread which cited "Betrayal Bonds" (forgot the author). The process of healing from this sort of betrayal would involve my wife showing recognition of how she hurt me and remorse for doing so. [Beyond the I did this for me, and I'm sorry you got hurt I've already got]

The next step is for her to do something to make amends.

I've jumped ahead of her and demanded the amends, which didn't help much.

One thing I once thought of/fantasized that she would agree to was that if she kissed a guy without my consent, her next move would be to tell him "Oops, I just blew that. I'm never going to see you again." I'm going to let this one die silently.

"Something" is for her to recognize that she's doing this for a reason of her own, recognize that it really isn't serving her well the way she's doing it, and start working to change what is driving this pattern. (Therapy, or some such.) I'm not the one to dictate HOW she treats this, but I think she's got to address it.

So far, she hasn't even acknowledged to me that there is a problem in how she does this. It is possible that she won't even see it as a problem to address.
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« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2015, 08:53:56 PM »

So far, she hasn't even acknowledged to me that there is a problem in how she does this. It is possible that she won't even see it as a problem to address.

Talk talk talk until you're sick of listening to yourself, GK... .   I can imagine your brain being on overdrive, thinking of all kinds of possible scenarios and outcomes.  What it comes down to ultimately, is what you can live with; being able to live with ourselves comes first and foremost.  That is "something" we have control over, how we conduct our lives and what we allow into it.

She might not see that she has a problem in how she does this.  The way she does this IS a problem for you.

I know you know all of this and I'm not saying anything you don't already know or realize.  Keep the focus on you.




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« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2015, 08:58:08 PM »

Vortex,

Excerpt
I haven't come to a solid conclusion just yet but I wonder if it is part of the equation and I am not yet ready to own up to the fact that what I would like more than anything is a husband where he and I are both enough for each other.

I hope you can decide what it is that you really want.  One thing I have learned from this process, getting really clear on what I want is the only way to achieve it.  That doesn't mean it happens right away but getting clear that what I want was a committed and intimate relationship was the only way to decide my course of action.

Excerpt
"Something" is for her to recognize that she's doing this for a reason of her own, recognize that it really isn't serving her well the way she's doing it, and start working to change what is driving this pattern. (Therapy, or some such.) I'm not the one to dictate HOW she treats this, but I think she's got to address it.

That is supposed to be the first step.  It took some serious help for my dBPDh to realize that he had his own issue and start working on it.  It took even longer and a lot of help for him to truly accept it.  He was still blaming me for a couple of years into this work and only now really gets it is about something wrong with him.  I had to focus on myself and what I needed and let him do the work himself.
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« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2015, 12:45:53 AM »

"Something" is for her to recognize that she's doing this for a reason of her own, recognize that it really isn't serving her well the way she's doing it, and start working to change what is driving this pattern. (Therapy, or some such.) I'm not the one to dictate HOW she treats this, but I think she's got to address it.

So far, she hasn't even acknowledged to me that there is a problem in how she does this. It is possible that she won't even see it as a problem to address.

GK, do you remember having had conversations about your (and her) values in the past?

I see that in my relationship, which is affected by my SO's compulsive behavior, the key issue brought up between the two of us while she did the SA therapy was about her values.

Granted, she felt (and still feels) conflicted by the discrepancies between her values and her behavior. That's where she feels the remorse when she does.

I agree that it's a good idea to bring it up in the MC sessions. I found that like with MissyM's H, my SO was encouraged to show up to her values, even 'confronted' sometimes, and this took the charge off of me, so to speak.

Another aspect is about me. I did not realise this but after a good while well into the dynamic. There was a little me inside which did not want to cause more trouble. This me was not asking for what she wanted.

a) I had a conflict between two of my values:

1. I care about her and I don't want to add suffering by making it more difficult than it is for her.

2. I have a right to ask for what gives me a sense of well-being.

b) I was scared I'll lose the relationship if I bring it up as a non-negociable.

Now I see that I need to 'dare' more in appropriate areas. But 'daring' is not the same thing than stating a harsh boundary. Does that make any sense?

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« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2015, 03:52:41 AM »

She's not stupid. Grey areas on these limits aren't the problem. Her needs that conflict with these limits are the problem.

GK ... .I just want to highlight this one very simple very stark thing you said.

Her needs conflict with your needs in a pretty fundamental way.

One thing I had to accept is that -- that is OK.  My ex could be him.  I could be me.  But at some point one of us had to admit that what we needed and could give did not match.  I found myself writing those words to him almost without conscious movement to that position ... ."it's probably good to see that what we need and can give don't match."

I felt quite a bit of relief (and a ton of sadness of course) in writing those words.  It was a really simple truth.  It was a true truth.  What he needs and can give does not match what I need and can give.  I can't give indifference to whether I am the primary person in his life.  He can't give me that primary commitment.  Well, there you go.  He thought I was concluding bad things about him but I really wasn't.  We could both be excellent people.  But excellent people who couldn't possibly meet one another's needs.
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« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2015, 07:11:35 AM »

Now I see that I need to 'dare' more in appropriate areas. But 'daring' is not the same thing than stating a harsh boundary. Does that make any sense?

A very similar dynamic has played out... .is playing out... .in my r/s.  I'm still not "harsh" on my boundaries... .but I have been clear... .and I even explained how some boundary enforcement on my part... .actually benefits her.  My wife seems to be onboard with it.

I wish I had thought through some of the boundaries earlier... .because I think my r/s would be much better... .much sooner.

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« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2015, 07:13:07 AM »

 

Grey,

How often is it obvious that your wife does things "just for you"... .or puts aside her feelings to "take care of" your feelings.

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« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2015, 10:26:30 AM »

Excerpt
A very similar dynamic has played out... .is playing out... .in my r/s.  I'm still not "harsh" on my boundaries... .but I have been clear... .and I even explained how some boundary enforcement on my part... .actually benefits her.  My wife seems to be onboard with it.

I wish I had thought through some of the boundaries earlier... .because I think my r/s would be much better... .much sooner.

I feel the same way.  Although I had no idea that I really had a lack of boundaries because I was pretty clear about what I wanted.  Problem was I didn't have a deep knowing within myself and instead turned it into a power struggle (yeah BPDs respond well to that).  I actually divorced my dBPDh because he wouldn't get help for his drug addiction.  Once he went to rehab I took him back.  That is where I failed on my boundaries, I should not have continued the relationship when my dBPDh stopped doing recovery work.  I was trying too hard not to be "controlling" and dropped that part of my boundary (only staying in this relationship while we are both in recovery). 
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« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2015, 11:30:00 AM »

I feel the same way.  Although I had no idea that I really had a lack of boundaries because I was pretty clear about what I wanted.  Problem was I didn't have a deep knowing within myself and instead turned it into a power struggle (yeah BPDs respond well to that).  I actually divorced my dBPDh because he wouldn't get help for his drug addiction.  Once he went to rehab I took him back.  That is where I failed on my boundaries, I should not have continued the relationship when my dBPDh stopped doing recovery work.  I was trying too hard not to be "controlling" and dropped that part of my boundary (only staying in this relationship while we are both in recovery). 

What has changed this time around MissyM?

I can be clear within myself (or I think I am) of what I want but I struggle with communicating that to my partner. And, I also struggle with finding the courage and strength to enforce my boundaries. How have you found the courage and strength to do this? Right now, I think I know what I want but one of the things that I am worried about is trying to enforce my boundaries in a consistent manner.

I have communicated what I want to my partner and I get stuck in this spot where I think: "If he truly understood what I am saying and wanting, then he would honor my wishes?" So, when he doesn't honor my wishes, I find myself thinking that maybe I am not communicating clearly enough because, in my mind, if he understood what I was trying to say or do then he would get on board. It sounds a little bit like GK's situation (not sure for certain). At what point does one accept that the other party isn't going to understand and isn't going to honor my wishes? Or is that too black and white?
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« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2015, 11:42:08 AM »

Vortex, all great questions.

Excerpt
"If he truly understood what I am saying and wanting, then he would honor my wishes?" So, when he doesn't honor my wishes, I find myself thinking that maybe I am not communicating clearly enough because, in my mind, if he understood what I was trying to say or do then he would get on board. It sounds a little bit like GK's situation (not sure for certain). At what point does one accept that the other party isn't going to understand and isn't going to honor my wishes? Or is that too black and white?

Oh, I hated that space.  I would tell him again and again what I wanted.  He would seem to understand and then not do it.  Now, I have taken my power back.  I cannot make him do anything but will respond in a specific way.  One of these was around sex.  I wasn't going to have sex if my dBPDh was in contact with other women.  I was clear with that.  When he admitted he had still been doing that, I had to take a break from sex.  It wasn't as a punishment but as a way to take care of myself.  It took some ownership and amends before I felt safe enough to reinitiate.  Boundaries can't be used as a weapon, but as a way to honor and protect myself.  Maybe because my husband is BPD, he was super sensitive to that and can really tell when I am trying to beat him up with a boundary instead of take care of myself.  It is learning to respond instead of react.

Excerpt
And, I also struggle with finding the courage and strength to enforce my boundaries. How have you found the courage and strength to do this? Right now, I think I know what I want but one of the things that I am worried about is trying to enforce my boundaries in a consistent manner.

A lot of therapy, I think doing the therapy group with other partners of SAs was the best thing I did.  That help me immensely, also I went away for a week of treatment and they just kept honing in on boundaries.  I had to figure out what my non-negotiables in a relationship were, that was about me and no one else could define it for me.  Then I presented them to  him in therapy in a non-shaming way.  I have just had to stay consistent, which came out of really getting clear with myself and accountability people what my boundaries are.
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« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2015, 02:06:29 PM »

In my mind, I think I am playing with this:

If he loves me, he will take a certain action. If he doesn't take that action, then that means that he doesn't really love me. If he doesn't really love me now, does that mean that our whole relationship has been one big fat lie? If it has all been one big fat lie, what the heck am I still doing here?

Maybe.  But its easy to get too wrapped up in analyzing the past.  Try resetting your mind to the here and now.  What you know today (of which the past patterns play into).  And knowing what you know today, what are your decisions and actions going forward?

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« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2015, 02:15:05 PM »

One thing I had to accept is that -- that is OK.  My ex could be him.  I could be me.  But at some point one of us had to admit that what we needed and could give did not match.  I found myself writing those words to him almost without conscious movement to that position ... ."it's probably good to see that what we need and can give don't match."

I felt quite a bit of relief (and a ton of sadness of course) in writing those words.  It was a really simple truth.  It was a true truth.  What he needs and can give does not match what I need and can give.  I can't give indifference to whether I am the primary person in his life.  He can't give me that primary commitment.  Well, there you go.  He thought I was concluding bad things about him but I really wasn't.  We could both be excellent people.  But excellent people who couldn't possibly meet one another's needs.

  well said, PaC!  You've described how I feel to a tee.  And I think maybe I'm grieving the loss of that relationship, the one I held hope in, the one where he would fill all my needs, and I his.  It's really hard to accept.  I feel so cheated sometimes, but that's why I need to stay focused on me, and my needs.  And learn to accept him for who he is.      It feels good to feel understood.

GK -

Yes, the open relationship issue complicates things a bit. I don't see it as THE problem. My wife was flirting and managed to completely betray me and violate my trust with another guy while we were monogamous. Lots of kissing and making out, with a sexual/spiritual connection going on.

So, I hear you saying she violated a trust way back in the relationship and it has grown into what you are dealing with now, is it not?  You've mentioned the repetition of these behaviours and how you don't think she is capable of respecting your boundaries... .

Changing the agreement isn't going to make it easier for her to stick with it... .unless the agreement is that she is a free agent, with no limits.

My truth includes that the behavior feels repetitive, and I need something from her... .

IMO, It's time for Grey Kitty to maybe do what Mrs G is doing, and tend to your own needs... .you're way, what ever that looks like for you.  You say you NEED to have some defined form of trust in your relationship, which includes a boundary.  

You deserve to have trust in a relationship, everyone does, however you define it.  You are not wrong for making the choice to do/say what is best for you, regardless of what excuse she presents to you for her behaviour.  

Want vs need.      You've said it before, hun, she hears you, but does nothing about it when you discuss this.  You've also said you want her in your life.  That needs to be validated, too.  But is it as important as what you need?  

Maybe it might help to ask which of your relationship goals is a want, and which ones are what you truly need?

, c.
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« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2015, 02:16:38 PM »

She's not stupid. Grey areas on these limits aren't the problem. Her needs that conflict with these limits are the problem.

GK ... .I just want to highlight this one very simple very stark thing you said.

Her needs conflict with your needs in a pretty fundamental way.

This is critical.  And sometimes really really difficult to face - that her NEEDS and yours, are fundamentally at odds with each other.  It seems that you have already done a lot of soul searching on just what your needs are.  Wear them.  Use them.  And grow comfortable with them.  If you can get clear and comfortable with what your needs are, then decision making and action is clear and easy.  

We can try to bend ourselves too much.  At the same time by trying to live it, sometimes we learn what we thought was a need was something we could survive without all along. That is the journey.  Clarify your needs.  Then determine your options for fulfilling those needs.  Some can come from outside the relationship, but some have to come from within.  Then you will know what the relationship IS, and what it ISNT, and can go forward from there.

Goodluck GK.    
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« Reply #53 on: January 19, 2015, 02:20:50 PM »

And I think maybe I'm grieving the loss of that relationship, the one I held hope in, the one where he would fill all my needs, and I his.  It's really hard to accept.  I feel so cheated sometimes, but that's why I need to stay focused on me, and my needs.  And learn to accept him for who he is.     It feels good to feel understood.

YES!

It is a loss.  A major loss (what you dreamed a relationship would be, intertwined with your own future going forward).  I went through the stages of grief:  Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance.

I found it a relevant model.
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« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2015, 03:12:15 PM »

that her NEEDS and yours, are fundamentally at odds with each other.  

For purposes of our discussion here... .are we on good footing to call these issues "needs"... .or "wants"... .or "values"

I like to keep "need" as a word that gets used for true "life issues"... .food, air, water... .

I could see a really well thought through value being a "need"... .and I think GK has done that.

I'm suspicious of calling his wife's desires a "need" because I don't think they are well thought through... .or that she is in the proper emotional state to "think them through"

Just a thought... .

Is there a better word to use than "need"?
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« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2015, 03:28:26 PM »

that her NEEDS and yours, are fundamentally at odds with each other.  

For purposes of our discussion here... .are we on good footing to call these issues "needs"... .or "wants"... .or "values"

I like to keep "need" as a word that gets used for true "life issues"... .food, air, water... .

I could see a really well thought through value being a "need"... .and I think GK has done that.

I'm suspicious of calling his wife's desires a "need" because I don't think they are well thought through... .or that she is in the proper emotional state to "think them through"

Just a thought... .

Is there a better word to use than "need"?

If 'needs' are for survival in life, there are also 'needs' to survive within a relationship. Such as honesty, trust, commitment, etc. Even with the most well thought out versions of this, if you don't walk the walk and follow through are the 'needs' then as important as claimed? There's a difference between just surviving and thriving, isn't there? Otherwise it's more like 'craving' or 'distraction' or 'moves made from fears' or what have you.
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« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2015, 03:31:40 PM »

Staff only

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .
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