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Skills we were never taught
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Author Topic: Why don't I believe it when she tells me she will hurt me?  (Read 1265 times)
Grey Kitty
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« on: January 16, 2015, 10:53:22 AM »

I think this is a larger pattern, although the most obvious example of it is in my current struggle with my wife's cheating, and similar prior behaviors on her part.

I told my wife that what she did hurt me. I even told her that I couldn't come back to our marriage if she continued being in contact with the guy. She did (after a lot of time and effort and struggle on both our parts) decide she was cutting contact with him.

Now she has told me that she is still friends with him, that she doesn't just cut off friends, and that at an important event for us that will happen in the summer but requires planning already, she will be friends with him. Sorta implying that she won't seek him out, but won't avoid him either. (She has also said she isn't going to be a lover with him; I don't trust this statement.)

So why am I hoping that she will change her mind? Why am I not believing what she says she will do? I've told her very clearly that this isn't acceptable to me, and she's not saying that she will do anything different for me.

Why don't I believe her?
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2015, 11:26:31 AM »

I’ve found a layer of cognitive dissonance. My wife says she loves me. I’ve told her very clearly that this behavior would hurt me. I expect her to consider that love and choose NOT to take the action which will hurt me.

Looking at myself, I’ve considered and even done things that are at least difficult for my wife. To protect my core self, my core values. Or perhaps to protect my core delusions and my ego in some cases, if I look more deeply. All this while loving her.

Perhaps I don’t understand/believe what drives her to do this.

Perhaps I’m in denial.

I am really struggling to find MY role in finding far more hope than either her words on the subject or her prior actions on the subject seem to justify.
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2015, 11:37:34 AM »

I’ve found a layer of cognitive dissonance. My wife says she loves me. I’ve told her very clearly that this behavior would hurt me. I expect her to consider that love and choose NOT to take the action which will hurt me.

Sending you a hug! 

A similar issue has come up for me in the last day or two. I keep trying to communicate my hurt and confusion to my spouse but he doesn't seem to get it. I think I expect my husband to consider the love and my feelings because that is what I would do. I think that is what a lot of people would do. I think I am projecting my thoughts and feelings onto him because accepting the reality of it all is entirely too painful.

In my mind, I think I am playing with this:

If he loves me, he will take a certain action. If he doesn't take that action, then that means that he doesn't really love me. If he doesn't really love me now, does that mean that our whole relationship has been one big fat lie? If it has all been one big fat like, what the heck am I still doing here?

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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2015, 11:58:01 AM »

If he loves me, he will take a certain action. If he doesn't take that action, then that means that he doesn't really love me. If he doesn't really love me now, does that mean that our whole relationship has been one big fat lie? If it has all been one big fat like, what the heck am I still doing here?

HEY! That's MY rabbit hole. What are you doing down here?
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2015, 01:29:49 PM »

We think this because that is what we would do, and what we assume typical people do. We assume that mothers who love their kids don't abuse them and take care of them. We assume that if our spouse loves us, they will consider our feelings.

A disordered person is different. I think our spouses are in emotional fight or flight a lot of the time. Biologically this state turns off a person's higher thinking functions and focuses on survival- "me me me". When they do this, there is only "me me me".

I have been in this rabbit hole with my H for years. I could not imagine why someone who says he loves me, who I believe loves me and acts like it a lot of the time could also be so nasty, insensitive and hurtful. I must be a slow learner since I grew up with an example of this in my mom. However, it took me not being reactive enough myself to observe my H in one of his rages. At this moment in time, he believed, fully, that he was under attack- by me, only I was not doing anything to him. He had no idea how much I was hurting because that part of his brain was shut off. Although the advice is to walk out, which I will do next time. I am glad I got to see this because I was able to make sense of it- finally.

As to cheating, I think this is part of the disorder, perhaps the fear of abandonment, the affirmation of being desirable, the control of having someone emotionally tied to you, the ability to tweak with a spouses feelings and the high of an illicit relationship, and her escape from painful feelings.

Sometimes there is truth in comedy and I've mentioned a hilarious Madaea video (on you tube) where she ( Tyler Perry) is talking about relationships and says " If someone shows you who they are, believe them."

They do love us though, and can see where the boundary is. I guess the approach to cheating is how much you are willing to tolerate it and be in a relationship with her. I don't think we can stop someone from cheating. It is more about them than us. All we can do is decide what we are going to do about it.
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2015, 01:38:57 PM »

Why don't I believe her?

I'll take a stab at answering... .

Because you look back and see how far your r/s has come... .you can't believe that after all the years... and the improvement... that she would really throw it away over some other guy... .or "this issue".

Here is the thing... .I don't think she will through this away.  But... I think... that by and large... .I think the way you think... or close.  So... .how close do you think I am?

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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2015, 01:47:18 PM »

I think that once someone does something that hurts us, it is a subconscious feeling/reaction that they will likely do it again. Even though this might not be true.  I think knowing about BPD and behaviors associated with it makes us a little leery. 
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2015, 02:48:49 PM »

GK, I am so sorry that you are going through this very painful experience in your marriage.    When our spouses behave in unloving ways, it triggers all kinds of feelings and trauma in us.  I think that the lack of empathy is the hardest part to deal with.  I don't have any magical answer to make your wife learn empathy.  It has taken working with the couples MCs that we are working with for my dBPDh to really start to "get" empathy.  I remember the beginning of the ordeal and the justifications and entitlement that my dBPDh had for his behavior.  The only thing that I can say to you is to hold to your truth and your value.  Try not to get into whether this means she loves you or not.  What I have been hearing you state is that your truth is that it hurts and is unacceptable for you in this relationship.  How much more time are you willing to give it for your wife to work this issue out?
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2015, 11:33:57 PM »

I don't know why I don't believe my wife. Or maybe I should say I didn't believe my wife.

I'm feeling heartbroken, because I do believe her tonight. And I keep saying that I can't stay in a marriage with her if I do believe she will do this.

I think the saddest thing I saw today was this description on wikipedia relating to attachment styles, which I'd been reading about.

Excerpt
The events begin the same way. Something provokes anxiety in a person, who then tries to reduce anxiety by seeking physical or psychological closeness to a partner. The partner rebuffs the request for greater closeness. The lack of responsiveness increases feelings of insecurity and anxiety. The person then gets locked into a cycle with the partner: the person tries to get closer, the partner rejects the request for greater closesness, which leads the person to try even harder to get closer, followed by another rejection from the partner, and so on. The cycle ends only when the situation shifts to a security-based strategy (because the partner finally responds positively) or when the person switches to an attachment avoidant strategy (because the person gives up on getting a positive response from the partner).

It is exactly what is going on. I am upset about my wife's cheating. I try to get close to her and ask her to stop. She gives me a negative response, and I spiral farther down.  :'(

As I should be going to bed (but haven't yet), I got one last text from her: ":)id you have a good day?"

I can't bring myself to answer. I did have some good moments. But more of the day, I felt miserable, lonely, depressed, hopeless, and ineffective. And got tired of that and checked out for a bit.

I don't want to appear to be a pitiful miserable guy to her.

I don't feel safe being vulnerable with her right now.

I don't want to cheerfully lie about how good I feel.

I'm back to feeling somewhere between stuck and lost.

I'll be in touch with her tomorrow. I'll probably be feeling something different.
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2015, 07:30:43 AM »

 

GK,

IMO... it is positive that your wife reached out to you... .she chased you.  And her concern was your feelings.

I think that is positive thing.

I'm assuming this is not a normaly... nightly thing... correct?
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2015, 09:37:01 AM »

Well, today is a different day, and I'm not feeling so overwhelmed as I was.

FF, yes, she is reaching out to me most days. Throughout this whole saga, she's been showering me with loving messages. (She did cut back or stop when I was NC and told her that I needed time and space apart)

What she hasn't done is shown regard for my feelings regarding cheating, especially in her actions.

She has several times said she couldn't come back to our marriage, and given "reasons".

Throughout this, she has cared for me, and wanted to work something out, or at least not lose the friendship we have. Lately she sounds more interested in making things work. (But not offering me anything new regarding the topic of this thread)
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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2015, 11:18:31 AM »

We think this because that is what we would do, and what we assume typical people do. We assume that mothers who love their kids don't abuse them and take care of them. We assume that if our spouse loves us, they will consider our feelings.

[... .]

I have been in this rabbit hole with my H for years. I could not imagine why someone who says he loves me, who I believe loves me and acts like it a lot of the time could also be so nasty, insensitive and hurtful. I must be a slow learner since I grew up with an example of this in my mom. However, it took me not being reactive enough myself to observe my H in one of his rages. At this moment in time, he believed, fully, that he was under attack- by me, only I was not doing anything to him. He had no idea how much I was hurting because that part of his brain was shut off. Although the advice is to walk out, which I will do next time. I am glad I got to see this because I was able to make sense of it- finally.

Guys... .maybe this is a little off-topic, but I have seen two things this week that really  troubled me. One was miniseries Olive Kitteridge, and the way the main character, Oliver, treats everybody. Including her husband. I won't tell what happens because it will spoil the experience of watching.

The other one is movie Wild, and the way she deals with her mom, and what she learns afterwards in life about her and her mom. I cried like a baby on this one.

Both of them connects deeply to the question: "why does he/she hurt me if he/she loves me?" If anyone should watch any of them, please PLEASE let me know.

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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2015, 11:40:49 AM »



Grey,

Couple things to "challenge" you on... .to make sure you are looking at things clearly... .

Couple questions too...


Well, today is a different day, and I'm not feeling so overwhelmed as I was.

Do you understand why you were overwhelmed?  Does your understanding... or lack of understanding... .bring you to think about any changes... .or anything you want to think about.

FF, yes, she is reaching out to me most days. Throughout this whole saga, she's been showering me with loving messages. (She did cut back or stop when I was NC and told her that I needed time and space apart)

This is an action... .this is a positive action.  I actually take her actions cutting back... .as even more positive.  She respected your feelings.  My guess is that she would have felt better if she had been in more communication... .but set aside her feelings... for yours.  (again... some guesswork there)  ... .I don't see anyway to make this look bad... .or negative.  Do you?

What she hasn't done is shown regard for my feelings regarding cheating, especially in her actions.

I would want to clarify that this is past actions... correct?  How many times has she disregarded your feelings on this... .and actually cheated?  Not at all saying even once is ok... .but just want to make sure the correct "facts"... ."metrics" ... .are out there.

And since she left the guy... .what actions has she taken that are against your values?

She has several times said she couldn't come back to our marriage, and given "reasons".

This is an action... .as in talking is an action.  However... .this is part of the "order to the disorder"... that they say things in odd ways... .to get a reaction... .probably an unhealthy reaction from you. 

Just want to make sure we are looking at this same way? Is there another more appropriate way to look at this?


Throughout this, she has cared for me, and wanted to work something out, or at least not lose the friendship we have. Lately she sounds more interested in making things work. (But not offering me anything new regarding the topic of this thread)

So... .I'm seeing evaluation of her talk in this last thing.

Can I challenge you to take a look at the time period from when she left the guy she cheated with... .until now.  Evaluate her actions.  Do they look like the actions of someone that wants to stay... .or go?

Hang in there Grey!  I think you are doing great with this!

  


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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2015, 12:22:19 PM »

Well, today is a different day, and I'm not feeling so overwhelmed as I was.

Do you understand why you were overwhelmed?  Does your understanding... or lack of understanding... .bring you to think about any changes... .or anything you want to think about.

I did find something that helps me understand. I found my fear in the rear view mirror this issue.

I found hope and confidence in the specific context where my wife is telling me she WILL see this guy even if I do the whole event without her as if we are separated/divorced. That I can survive and even thrive and grow in that worst case scenario.

Then I saw my fear. That I was dependent on my wife. That I couldn't succeed without her. And at the same time, I knew that I couldn't do this event with her while afraid/certain that she would see the guy she cheated with. I felt stuck.

Excerpt
What she hasn't done is shown regard for my feelings regarding cheating, especially in her actions.

I would want to clarify that this is past actions... correct?  How many times has she disregarded your feelings on this... .and actually cheated?  Not at all saying even once is ok... .but just want to make sure the correct "facts"... ."metrics" ... .are out there.

And since she left the guy... .what actions has she taken that are against your values?

Current actions appear to be OK. She told me she cut contact. She hasn't told me that she resumed contact. (And she doesn't have a history of that flavor of deception. Sometimes she tells me about it slightly after the fact, but she hasn't previously done anything like sneaking around... .that I have learned of to date.)

Her current statements are NOT OK. She is telling me that she is still friends with him, and that when she sees him, the friendship will resume. This IS what she told me over the Christmas holiday, and she's stuck with that statement since then. This is NOT what she told me around Thanksgiving, at which point I told her that cutting all contact was my minimum requirement for resuming our marriage.

Changing her story around Christmas is another betrayal to me!

And yes, this is a pattern with her. Other instances of 'cheating' involved kissing and HEAVY make-out sessions with a spiritual/sexual connection, plus two that she has admitted were emotional affairs.
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2015, 12:25:54 PM »

Evaluate her actions.  Do they look like the actions of someone that wants to stay... .or go?

Her actions look like someone who wants to stay... .with the freedom to have her choice of sexual/romantic partners, without my consent in the matter, and without regard for my feelings in this matter.
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« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2015, 12:57:08 PM »

Her actions look like someone who wants to stay... .with the freedom to have her choice of sexual/romantic partners, without my consent in the matter, and without regard for my feelings in this matter.

GK allowing for boundaries being fluid; is there a way within the context of your wife's reality and the polyamorous aspect of your marriage that this impasse could be wholly about the disorder and separate from how your wife feels about you?

If this could be a possibility is there any way that you could accept some part of this being a component of your marriage?

Is there a way that you could soften your boundary that might help you both stay married?
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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2015, 01:01:29 PM »

Are you just afraid to let go, and admit the marriage isn't going to make it? Going around and around with this hoping she'll reverse course and never cheat again, while she's proving she will continue... .When does that cycle end? Why not say, "There's a line here, you've crossed it, please honor our commitment or I can't live that way", and then stick with it? Let her live her life, be 'free' or whatever she calls it, and do the same for yourself. Why keep your self on hold and repeatedly be hurt by her? Why wait for her to make this choice for you? She wants to be/has been/still is with other people. Unless you're cool with that, be done with that. Best of luck.
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« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2015, 04:33:25 PM »

Her actions look like someone who wants to stay... .with the freedom to have her choice of sexual/romantic partners, without my consent in the matter, and without regard for my feelings in this matter.

GK allowing for boundaries being fluid; is there a way within the context of your wife's reality and the polyamorous aspect of your marriage that this impasse could be wholly about the disorder and separate from how your wife feels about you?

If this could be a possibility is there any way that you could accept some part of this being a component of your marriage?

Is there a way that you could soften your boundary that might help you both stay married?

"Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" would say it is important NOT to soften a truly-felt boundary like this. If you do you've essentially signed a blank check.

I think the opposite seems like a better chance to save the marriage. Make crystal clear that this line will not be moving; that you really care about this value; that you view her current statements as a violation of a commitment she made you to secure your continuing in the r/s in Nov.; that her current terms are not ones under which you will continue to be married.

Then she has a clearly defined choice. And if the marriage continues it will be on terms that don't make you feel sick to your stomach.

There is no guarantee this will save the marriage. She gets to choose. (As GK is aware my ex did not choose to stay connected to me on terms that worked for me.)  But it could. And if it does, you'll have something that works for you.

I hear super loud and clear in your posts, GK, that you need signs that she cares enough for you to give up other things that hurt you even though they might be fun and rewarding for her. That's a completely reasonable position--other people might feel like they want to try to work on giving up their hurt, being less proprietary, not needing to be "primary." But you are already nonconformist about r/ship rules and structure. You are not rigid on such things. If this is a core value and her current position has run into your bedrock, that is fine. Your feelings make sense and they are fine. Trying to change them to save the r/ship seems perilous to me. You don't want to abandon yourself.
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« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2015, 06:18:29 PM »

songbook, sweetheart, P&C:

This came up in another topic... .

I don't really see them as opposing views but things that can be done in tandem.  Carnes' views have evolved over time but having the addict own their behavior is the first step in relationship repair and builds a bridge between the partners.  After that it is much easier for a partner to offer forgiveness and they both learn to address and meet their needs individually and as a couple in a positive way.  In our case, it didn't exactly work that way.  Probably because of BPD and not just SA, I had to get to a place of acceptance and understanding before my dBPDh was willing to really own his behavior and make amends to me.  As long as I had reactivity and wasn't understanding my dBPDh couldn't be vulnerable enough to own his behavior.

I'm looking for the alternative path:

1. Stuffing my betrayal, and letting go of my values and my boundaries isn't a solution. (Ask me how I know  Smiling (click to insert in post) 0

2. Sticking to a harsh boundary of ending the relationship with my wife feels like a game of emotional chicken--which one of us will blink first, and will we have a flaming crash first? Most importantly... .I've been trying this, and it isn't working--My wife may 'sacrifice' herself for our marriage, but she can't keep doing that, and it will pop up again... .if she even makes the offer.

3. Since she is currently THREATENING new cheating (in my view; I'm sure she sees it differently) as opposed to being in active contact with him, she has stood down a tiny bit.

I will stand down and stop pushing her on the boundary, and work on validation, as she *IS* really feeling upset about things involving me. I won't say that I'm not hurt by the betrayal; I won't say that contact with the guy doesn't matter to me... .but I will try to avoid bringing it up except in the context of MC sessions.

For the record, my words have been crystal clear on this boundary. My actions are mixed. I've not cut contact, not filed for divorce. At various times I've cut contact way back, zero for a while. I've started reaching out with more loving and accepting things.

This morning I had a conversation where it felt like I was able to say things that sounded right. (About other issues... .part of the kitchen sink she's throwing at me)

P&C, I'm not so much trying to change her... .as trying to give her room to change herself into the person she wants to be. She is relatively self-aware, so there is a chance here. And I am clear with myself... .there are real limits of what I will be accepting.

I'm not going to lose sight of that. If she resumes a romantic r/s with the guy, I'm done. I can't find a way to live with that. If she cannot make amends sufficiently that I have a reason to trust her to have zero contact with him at the event coming up this summer, I will make plans to do the event separately from her. For us, separating at this event is almost as big and provocative as filing for divorce, and doing so may make divorce inevitable.
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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2015, 06:44:16 PM »

 

So... .are you open to continuing to by polyamorous?  I think answer is yes... .but want to make sure.

Can you think back in time... .what could she have done... .before she met the guy and cheated... .to get you to be ok with it?

If I remember... you didn't trust him... .or you trusted him less than her... something like that.

Where I am going with this... .is how can she think about the future... .and figure out when poly is ok... .and with who.

How is that going to look?
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« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2015, 07:11:17 PM »

Can you think back in time... .what could she have done... .before she met the guy and cheated... .to get you to be ok with it?

I wanted to provide some more food for thought to ponder. . .It seems that you are okay with having a poly relationship. What is it about THIS specific guy that leads you to want her to cut contact with him? I know that I have had that same reaction to some of the people that my husband has interacted with in the course of our experimentations.

If there was somebody that I had a horrible reaction to and didn't want my husband to be with, it was usually because there was something about that person that sent me into protector mode. I wanted to protect my husband from that person. Also, I was afraid that person would try to manipulate my husband or convince him of things that he wouldn't come up with on his own. It is me being a protector and rescuer. I was trying to protect him and rescue him from those big bad evil women that don't know him like I do. They don't have his best interests at heart and I do. Not sure what to do with this but it is something to think about. My husband chose me so his tastes and decision making abilities in the romance department can't be that bad.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Since my husband is posting/answering ads again, I am having to dig into why I was okay with some people and not others. I am not sure if backing up a bit would be helpful or not. I know you don't want to lose your wife but I also know that you want to find some kind of solution to the current impasse that both of you will be able to live with in the long run.

Excerpt
Where I am going with this... .is how can she think about the future... .and figure out when poly is ok... .and with who.

And, also, this is part of the "who" but it needs to be pretty clear how much input Grey Kitty has in her choice of partners. It has to be something both parties can live with and stick to.
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« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2015, 07:41:42 PM »

Sticking to a harsh boundary of ending the relationship with my wife feels like a game of emotional chicken--which one of us will blink first, and will we have a flaming crash first?

It's not a game if you're not playing one. It's not a 'harsh boundary', either, that's a FOG-like way of seeing it. Don't do that. This is an important part of who you are and what you offer/need in a relationship! Whichever choice she makes, she could be more respecting of that and not take it so personally (even though it came into being an issue because you're protecting yourself from her harmful actions). What are the deeper reasons you're afraid to speak up with her? That you feel you have to supplicate (if that's the right word here) so much? If by 'blinking' you mean opening your eyes and seeing things for how they really are, and then acting accordingly, by all means both of you please blink away. {I know, I know, this is the 'Staying Board'... .} What are your chances with such reluctance? The 'crash' has already occurred, hasn't it? Yes, there could be others. The vehicle (your marriage) could be totaled. It could become even harder and more painful for you to be able to walk away. It sounds like there will come a time when you'll have to make this decision, to stay or go, and really stick with it. For yourself, not to be against her. The best way is to do what's best for you. Are you going to wait for her to decide for you, or... .?

She's making threats, throwing the kitchen sink, cheating, continuing to do things she knows are hurting you... .You're saying the best thing to do is validate her? Make it easier for her? I'm not judging this, I feel for you. I tried it, too. Ultimately causing resentment on both sides more than bringing us closer together/resolving the disordered problems. The patterns were too solid. The resistance to being 'chained down' too strong.

I wonder how much of this is like an addiction to you more than something you really do believe in as being actually possible to work through/overcome. Being honest, if you were a friend sitting here I'd say "Wake Up. Get Out. If she finally comes around, that'll be on her to get there. Maybe you'll still be open to being with her, but maybe you'll have moved on long ago. It Is What It Became."

Perhaps you've read this but your posts remind me of the following clear and helpful way of looking at things, separating fact from fantasy:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

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« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2015, 08:28:43 PM »

To Vortex and FF's points ... .I've read GK saying that this guy creeps him out. But I think it may be useful to set that aside, because what has always sounded like the deeper point is that he asked her not to do it -- showed her his deep pain around it -- and she did it anyway.

And THEN he was drawing some clear boundaries and considering the implications of what happened ... .Putting some distance between them of his making ... .And she fetched him back by saying she would meet his needs and cut contact with this guy because she valued GK and heard that that's (part of) what he needed to feel safe and cared for and heard (paraphrasing).

And THEN she switch up on him after he softened his stance and is now saying she's going to do the very thing that most hurts him.

I think the issue is less poly and more about caring what he feels and needs. GK, it sounds to me like you are sorely feeling the need for her to care what you need. Which is ... .Really normal and healthy.

GK, I don't see much difference btwn what you said is not an option (stuffing your feelings) and what you just said you think you'll try (setting aside your effort to convey your boundary and paying attention to how you've hurt HER feelings). I think you're saying you're not abandoning your boundary because first, she isn't currently cheating again yet that you know of; and second, you have already been clear.

But what about a boundary about her threatening to break your boundary? Isn't that pretty much causing the same pain as if she actually does it? It's the same message of "GK I know you hate this and I nonetheless am planning to go ahead with it." Allowing those to go on, given that she got you back involved in a deeper way by promising otherwise, while simultaneously working hard yourself to care about and show caring about her feelings, seems a lot like stuffing your feelings, to me.  
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MissyM
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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2015, 08:55:13 PM »

Excerpt
P&C, I'm not so much trying to change her... .as trying to give her room to change herself into the person she wants to be. She is relatively self-aware, so there is a chance here. And I am clear with myself... .there are real limits of what I will be accepting.

GK, it sound like you are describing limbo.  Part of my recovery work involved accepting being in limbo for a time.  It is the truth for a while, limbo gave us each space to recover and heal.  Seems that you have been in limbo for a while and are looking for a way to start navigating out of it?  At least that is what it seems to me.  I put my only real advice on the other thread  Just get very calm and clear about your non-negotiable boundaries.  When I was really clear on that boundary for myself, I could state it in a loving and clear way.  I didn't use a divorce threat.  I just was clear that to be in this relationship I would need active recovery for both of us and no infidelity.  Everything in the relationship is negotiable, except that I want real intimacy.  I am now having al of my boundaries met with no resistance and it isn't about trying to control my dBPDh, it is just my truth.
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« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2015, 09:18:53 PM »

Missy, your advice seems very sound.

The hard question which comes to pass for some of us is what happens when you do that and your partner does NOT meet your needs, lovingly stated.

GK has lovingly stated his needs (it really sounds like) and is getting a direct response of ... .I am going to violate your boundaries. I think we can forget that there is not always a unifying ending after boundary definition. When the other partner respects those boundaries and stays, that's an encouraging story. But that isn't always what happens. When it doesn't, people are in a hard place. And suddenly it feels pretty appealing to abandon that boundary ... .
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« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2015, 09:38:52 PM »

When I was really clear on that boundary for myself, I could state it in a loving and clear way. 

I really, really wanted to pull this out. I find that the more clear I get on some things, the easier it is for me to communicate those things. I am not sure how much of it is a change in my husband and how much of it is me changing my focus and finding new ways to approach things. My husband and I went round and round for a while about whether or not to try to save the marriage. That issue has been tabled. We try not to talk about that at all.

Excerpt
Everything in the relationship is negotiable, except that I want real intimacy.  I am now having al of my boundaries met with no resistance and it isn't about trying to control my dBPDh, it is just my truth.

I eventually want real intimacy but I am finding that is too much to ask for and focus on right now. My intermediate step is demanding that I be treated with consideration and respect. I have posed it as: Would you treat a friend like this? If you had a room mate, how would that room mate react if you did certain things? I am trying to find ways to depersonalize discussions so that I (and my husband) can see things more objectively. I really want my husband to see that his expectations of me are unrealistic. Just like I do not think it is realistic for Grey Kitty's wife to expect him to be okay with the lack of consideration that she is showing towards him. She isn't willing to give up a friend but seems to be willing to give up a person that has invested 20 or so years in her. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 

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« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2015, 09:46:51 PM »

Excerpt
When it doesn't, people are in a hard place. And suddenly it feels pretty appealing to abandon that boundary ... .

Sometimes they don't come along.  However, abandoning my own boundaries is something I am no longer willing to do.  I realized that since my dBPDh wasn't used to me keeping my boundaries, that he would test me.  Since he wasn't living at home, I was very clear that we wouldn't live together and couldn't work on our marriage without fidelity and recovery.  It took several months for my dBPDh to realize that he didn't want to live that way anymore.  We started marital therapy while he was still talking to other women, he came clean within a coupe of weeks and was able to put an end to that kind of behavior.  While we were in that limbo state of not knowing, I kept myself busy and stayed with my boundaries.  It is entirely possible that we could have ended up divorced.  I had to let go of the outcome and stay true to myself.  I have seen this approach work for several couples. The tools from this site helped me in this because I did learn validation, which was something that was missing.  My dBPDh moved closer and closer towards me the more I validated his  emotional state and ignored the threats.  So, it has been a combination of Carnes approach and the tools on this site for BPD.  
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« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2015, 09:50:12 PM »

1. Yes, this guy creeps me out. (I don't need to discuss that in this topic.) My wife's betrayal -- the violation of my consent in getting involved with this guy is the real problem.

2. I'm open to polyamoury, even interested in pursuing my own side of it. I don't have the energy to devote to a new r/s while dealing with what's in my marriage. I hope my wife can do the same for a while. (Again, I don't care to discuss hypothetical romantic partners in this topic.)

3. Limbo is for a while. We've now got a natural deadline--my wife is staying in the area for January and can extend to February. [Visit to help a friend having surgery being delayed for now, and only being about a week] In March, she's going to have to decide where she's going.

I don't think either of us is going to handle limbo past February very well. There may well still be recovery work then... .but if there is no real progress, I don't think either of us will have much patience. (Especially if this MC seems good enough to keep working with. If we have to restart with another, that could delay something)

Sticking to a harsh boundary of ending the relationship with my wife feels like a game of emotional chicken--which one of us will blink first, and will we have a flaming crash first?

It's not a game if you're not playing one. It's not a 'harsh boundary', either, that's a FOG-like way of seeing it.

I wasn't saying it was a game. It isn't for me.

I didn't say the boundary was harsh either. The enforcement action I'm currently contemplating--ending my r/s IS harsh.

What I'm saying is that if I choose to play by those rules, I'm putting the choice to swerve or crash our marriage in my wife's hands. And that MY unwillingness to swerve will have an impact on her decision, and a negative one at that.

Here's the why/how I'm willing to blink.

For me the issue is this cheating. My wife doesn't want to give that up or spend time in a place where she admits that she was wrong / behaving badly there... .so we do have a conflict there.

This isn't her MOST IMPORTANT issue. We both wrote something about "why we were in therapy this day" and there wasn't time or space to write a book. My didn't choose to write something about me not letting her have the r/s with this guy as her version of the problem.

I can work with her on what she thinks is her most important issue. I don't remember clear details, but most of them sound like things I want to do anyway, along the path of getting less enmeshed / codependent with her.

Excerpt
But what about a boundary about her threatening to break your boundary? Isn't that pretty much causing the same pain as if she actually does it? It's the same message of "GK I know you hate this and I nonetheless am planning to go ahead with it."

MissyM said this in the other thread... .

Excerpt
Therapists told me to just ignore that divorce talk and restate my truth in a loving way.

I'm willing to consider the two as mostly the same that way.

GK, I don't see much difference btwn what you said is not an option (stuffing your feelings) and what you just said you think you'll try (setting aside your effort to convey your boundary and paying attention to how you've hurt HER feelings).

Well... .the actions look about the same at the time. The difference is the motivation and how I feel about it.

One is what I would do out of fear of losing the r/s, and would make me very resentful.

The other is what I would do out of desire to make every effort I can to save my r/s, and represents an active choice on my part... .and would be something I would not regret later.

Extra clarification: I do NOT plan to hide my truth or my feelings. I do plan to state it in as loving a way as I can, and avoid provocative statements about consequences or enforcement actions. (I do not need to mention divorce.)

I cannot be OK with my marriage if my wife is in contact with this guy.
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« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2015, 09:52:42 PM »

  She isn't willing to give up a friend but seems to be willing to give up a person that has invested 20 or so years in her. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 

VOC,

I think you have found a point that should be worked through.

This is definitely a "help mu understand thing... ."... .because you are right... .it doesn't make sense.

Especially... .especially... because GK is not saying that poly is bad... .it just needs consent and comfort of both parties.

Wow... .I just read VOC's quote again... .that really sums up the "issue" that I've been scratching my head about... .

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« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2015, 10:00:56 PM »

Excerpt
My intermediate step is demanding that I be treated with consideration and respect.

I get what you are saying but demanding respect has never worked for me, I tried it for quite a while.  What works for me is realizing what I is ok for me and what is not ok for me.  As a benign example, I don't like it when my husband is a slob, is he disrespecting me when he is a slob?  No, because it isn't really about me but about him.  Therefore I just ask him to pick up something if he leaves trash sitting there or I pick it up.   Either way, it is my choice how I decide to handle it.  If I am going to pick it up myself then I am not going to be resentful about it because it is the choice I am making.  My sponsor has helped me get better with this thinking.  Everything I do is my own choice, no one else has the power over me to make me feel any particular way.

Excerpt
Extra clarification: I do NOT plan to hide my truth or my feelings. I do plan to state it in as loving a way as I can, and avoid provocative statements about consequences or enforcement actions. (I do not need to mention divorce.)

I cannot be OK with my marriage if my wife is in contact with this guy.

Exactly how I would approach it.  It seems somewhat counterintuitive because there is this feeling that I wanted to make my husband accept my very reasonable boundary, but that just never worked.  However, quietly owning it did work.  Not exactly sure why that is except that one way is trying to control my husband and the other is taking care of myself.  Seems like a subtle thing but it made a world of difference.
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