Why don't I believe it when she tells me she will hurt me?

[Grey Kitty]

Extra clarification: I do NOT plan to hide my truth or my feelings. I do plan to state it in as loving a way as I can, and avoid provocative statements about consequences or enforcement actions. (I do not need to mention divorce.)

I cannot be OK with my marriage if my wife is in contact with this guy.

Exactly how I would approach it.  It seems somewhat counterintuitive because there is this feeling that I wanted to make my husband accept my very reasonable boundary, but that just never worked.  However, quietly owning it did work.  Not exactly sure why that is except that one way is trying to control my husband and the other is taking care of myself.  Seems like a subtle thing but it made a world of difference.

I'm still struggling--sometimes I feel like I've got this. Other times I feel like I'm lost.

Can you give me some examples of the exact words you used to quietly own your feelings of betrayal?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[sweetheart]

"Validate yourself:

This is too painful and is out of alignment with my own values, I will need to create distance if you are going to continue to take this action.  [/i]

(By the way….”endings" are part of a process.  I think we get too caught up in our own black and white thinking and get panicked that this is THE END or this is THE ONE etc., when it’s really just all one long process that has a lot of openings and closings all along the way. This may be an ending for now. Boundaries do initiate endings.  Sometimes it initiates the ending of something dysfunctional making room over time for something more functional to emerge.  There has to be endings if people are ever to grow.)

Validate him:  I understand that you feel you need to take this action and will continue to do so for your own reasons.

There are so many great things about validation, but one of the things that it does, is put ownership squarely in the owners lap.  Arguing or trying to change or convince someone that they are wrong or need to change because they are hurting us or themselves…immediately distracts from ownership and invites tons of projection and distraction that muddies the water."

GK this is quote taken from a reply by MayBeSo that was given to Haye around issues of infidelity in her relationship. When I was reading your responses these words came to mind and they seem to me to hold a certain poignancy to your 'stuckness' at the moment.

[MissyM]

Gk, hmmm an example.  Do you mean when my dBPDh would say that he didn't think he was going to be able to live in a fully committed marriage based in recovery?  I wouldn't really address it head on.  I would say that I understood he was struggling and I hoped he chose commitment and recovery.  That I loved him and believed in our marriage.  Then the hard part was to let that drop.  I pretty much gave this kind of answer every time.  I dealt with my pain and hurt myself, with my own therapy.  Then once he said he was committed to working it out, I talked about what I needed in couple's therapy.  Really, the therapists handled getting him to acknowledge he hurt me.  If I tried to address the pain one on one with him, he would shut down (which in turn would hurt me even more). He needed the support to be able to hear me.  That isn't as true right now, his empathy is beginning to improve towards me.

[Grey Kitty]

Thanks, that example helps.

My wife is both ahead and behind your H right now.

Ahead: She's in couples therapy already; she is trying to make it work.

Behind: She's not even acknowledged that she wants to be in a committed faithful r/s (within my limits, which are a bit broader than yours.)

The example I was looking for was ways of quietly telling your truth about the things that hurt you.

I think my key is to keep it in the form of "I feel... ." or "I can't live with... ." and avoid the active statements of consequences I would impose... .or requests for the sort of amends I want her to make. Demanding she make amends before she acknowledges that she hurt me isn't going to work.

[Grey Kitty]

sweetheart, I read that thread including MaybeSo's postings with great interest. That kind of validation is something I hope to use.

My wife does have a need for flirting and male attention.

I like the idea of validating that and letting it sit on its own as her thing.

Because it is something on its own, before she and I go down a rabbit hole with it!

[vortex of confusion]

Behind: She's not even acknowledged that she wants to be in a committed faithful r/s (within my limits, which are a bit broader than yours.)

I know my husband won't commit to anything with regards to our relationship and that has been a source of a lot of confusion for me. Yes, I have one foot out the door so to speak but there is still a tiny part of me that wishes his actions would show me that he wants to be in a committed relationship with me. I am not even looking at limits or anything like that. For now, that is too much to consider and that is why I have had to keep trying to refocus things so that we could find SOMETHING that we could agree on.

The example I was looking for was ways of quietly telling your truth about the things that hurt you.

I am interested in seeing some examples of this as well. I am at a point where I am wondering if "telling my truth" should even involve my husband. I am not clear on this but it is something that I am thinking about. What does telling my truth look like? Does it involve telling my husband and having him understand it? Or, is it more about me knowing it, thinking it, and living it without regard for what my husband is doing?

I think my key is to keep it in the form of "I feel... ." or "I can't live with... ." and avoid the active statements of consequences I would impose... .or requests for the sort of amends I want her to make. Demanding she make amends before she acknowledges that she hurt me isn't going to work.

MissyM probably has way more information about making amends as it relates to the 12 step programs but I do know that acknowledging things comes before the making amends. If a person doesn't fully acknowledge and understand what they are making amends for, then the act of making amends is going to be a bit fruitless.

Here lately, I have been using Form Fliers "help me understand" angle and I have been trying to use it as it relates to me and my feelings. I try to depersonalize it and then bring it back to something more personal. Does that make an ounce of sense?

[MissyM]

I know my husband won't commit to anything with regards to our relationship and that has been a source of a lot of confusion for me

Vortex, is this ok with you?  Or in your case is it because you feel the same way?  I know that I was ok with that for a short while, while I figured out exactly what I wanted.  I am not ok with that long term, as I believe it is toxic to a marriage.

Or, is it more about me knowing it, thinking it, and living it without regard for what my husband is doing?

Yep, 

Ahead: She's in couples therapy already; she is trying to make it work.

Behind: She's not even acknowledged that she wants to be in a committed faithful r/s (within my limits, which are a bit broader than yours.)

Uh, we were in couple's therapy for a very long time (actually most of our marriage off and on).  We just switched to a different style of therapy.  He would be back and forth on wanting to be in a committed faithful relationship.  Yours is complicated with the open relationship issue.  Have you thought of changing that?  It seems to be too grey of a line for a BPD to deal with.  Your BPDw has had real problem adhering to the agreements.  Just a thought and maybe examine this in MC, what kind of a marriage model is actually doable with a BPD?

The example I was looking for was ways of quietly telling your truth about the things that hurt you.

I definitely kept that in MC for a while, when looking for support from my dBPDh.  I phrased it in I feel hurt by your infidelity.  I want us to have a loving, monogamous relationship.  His therapist pushed him to do disclosure and own his behavior, that really wasn't up to me.  I said that I wanted to do my impact statement and receive an emotional restitution letter from him.  Fortunately, all of the therapists involved were very pro this.  The focus was owning my feelings and stating what I would like without purposely shaming my dBPDh.

[vortex of confusion]

I know my husband won't commit to anything with regards to our relationship and that has been a source of a lot of confusion for me

Vortex, is this ok with you?  Or in your case is it because you feel the same way?  I know that I was ok with that for a short while, while I figured out exactly what I wanted.  I am not ok with that long term, as I believe it is toxic to a marriage.

I am not okay with this long term. I am okay with it now because I feel the same way. If I truly own my feelings and my truth, I am just as unclear and confused as my husband. For a while, I was trying to get him to commit so that it would take the pressure off of me and I wouldn't have to make a decision. Now, I am trying to own my truth, which is, at the moment, I don't have a freaking clue what I want. Some days, I hate my husband and want to get as far away from him as I can and other days I can't imagine my life without him.

Or, is it more about me knowing it, thinking it, and living it without regard for what my husband is doing?

Yep, 

I can see where this is playing out with my confusion. Because I am owning the fact that I can't really make a decision right now, I am not putting pressure on him to make any kind of decision. I am not as focused on what he is doing. I am trying not to look at what he is doing and interpret it as a clear sign of anything. For me, it is embracing the confusion and owning it rather than trying to look and act like I have it all together and am sitting here waiting for my husband to act a certain way in order for me come to some kind of conclusion.

Yours is complicated with the open relationship issue.  Have you thought of changing that?  It seems to be too grey of a line for a BPD to deal with.  Your BPDw has had real problem adhering to the agreements.  Just a thought and maybe examine this in MC, what kind of a marriage model is actually doable with a BPD?

I also wonder, since I am in a similar situation regarding the open relationship stuff, if I am really being honest with myself when I say that I am open to being in an open relationship. My husband and I talked about the possibility of opening things up but neither one of us ever did anything about it. We spent 15 years in a relationship that was completely monogamous and I had no problems with it. What has changed?

I don't recall all of the specifics of GK's situation and how long they were in the relationship before seeking outside interests. I do think it is something to consider when asking the question of "Am I really okay with this?" I haven't come to a solid conclusion just yet but I wonder if it is part of the equation and I am not yet ready to own up to the fact that what I would like more than anything is a husband where he and I are both enough for each other.

[Grey Kitty]

Uh, we were in couple's therapy for a very long time (actually most of our marriage off and on).  We just switched to a different style of therapy.  He would be back and forth on wanting to be in a committed faithful relationship.  Yours is complicated with the open relationship issue.  Have you thought of changing that? It seems to be too grey of a line for a BPD to deal with.  Your BPDw has had real problem adhering to the agreements.  Just a thought and maybe examine this in MC, what kind of a marriage model is actually doable with a BPD?

Yes, the open relationship issue complicates things a bit. I don't see it as THE problem. My wife was flirting and managed to completely betray me and violate my trust with another guy while we were monogamous. Lots of kissing and making out, with a sexual/spiritual connection going on. The fact that she left her clothes on was something she used to rationalize things, but it didn't make me feel any less betrayed.

[I'm not describing our relatively successful polyamorous relationships in between]

The version of an open r/s that is acceptable to me is one where we both need consent prior to getting involved with anybody else. She violated that one on me last fall. She didn't really claim she had a right to do this because we were polyamorous. She did claim that I was being unfair in not being excited and eager for her to have this opportunity. (Needless to say, I didn't feel any better with THAT rationalization either!)

Changing the agreement isn't going to make it easier for her to stick with it... .unless the agreement is that she is a free agent, with no limits.

She's not stupid. Grey areas on these limits aren't the problem. Her needs that conflict with these limits are the problem.

Sex/Love addiction is a better model, although I'm not going to push that label. Heck I don't think I'll even mention it. My truth is about her behavior, and my feelings of betrayal. If the MC wants to use a label for her behavior, that's his issue. Mention of the BPD label caused enough trouble already. She's half-forgotten that, fortunately. My truth includes that the behavior feels repetitive, and I need something from her to make me trust she's trying to change the larger pattern, not just deal with this one instance.

I may not get any assurance of this sort from her. I'd sure love to see 95% recognition and 5% relapse from her! Right now it feels like 5% recognition, 70% confusion/dodging the issue, and 25% relapse!

[123Phoebe]

My truth includes that the behavior feels repetitive, and I need something from her to make me trust she's trying to change the larger pattern, not just deal with this one instance.

What would that "something" be? 

[Grey Kitty]

My truth includes that the behavior feels repetitive, and I need something from her to make me trust she's trying to change the larger pattern, not just deal with this one instance.

What would that "something" be? 

There was another thread which cited "Betrayal Bonds" (forgot the author). The process of healing from this sort of betrayal would involve my wife showing recognition of how she hurt me and remorse for doing so. [Beyond the I did this for me, and I'm sorry you got hurt I've already got]

The next step is for her to do something to make amends.

I've jumped ahead of her and demanded the amends, which didn't help much.

One thing I once thought of/fantasized that she would agree to was that if she kissed a guy without my consent, her next move would be to tell him "Oops, I just blew that. I'm never going to see you again." I'm going to let this one die silently.

"Something" is for her to recognize that she's doing this for a reason of her own, recognize that it really isn't serving her well the way she's doing it, and start working to change what is driving this pattern. (Therapy, or some such.) I'm not the one to dictate HOW she treats this, but I think she's got to address it.

So far, she hasn't even acknowledged to me that there is a problem in how she does this. It is possible that she won't even see it as a problem to address.

[123Phoebe]

So far, she hasn't even acknowledged to me that there is a problem in how she does this. It is possible that she won't even see it as a problem to address.

Talk talk talk until you're sick of listening to yourself, GK... .   I can imagine your brain being on overdrive, thinking of all kinds of possible scenarios and outcomes.  What it comes down to ultimately, is what you can live with; being able to live with ourselves comes first and foremost.  That is "something" we have control over, how we conduct our lives and what we allow into it.

She might not see that she has a problem in how she does this.  The way she does this IS a problem for you.

I know you know all of this and I'm not saying anything you don't already know or realize.  Keep the focus on you.

[MissyM]

Vortex,

I haven't come to a solid conclusion just yet but I wonder if it is part of the equation and I am not yet ready to own up to the fact that what I would like more than anything is a husband where he and I are both enough for each other.

I hope you can decide what it is that you really want.  One thing I have learned from this process, getting really clear on what I want is the only way to achieve it.  That doesn't mean it happens right away but getting clear that what I want was a committed and intimate relationship was the only way to decide my course of action.

"Something" is for her to recognize that she's doing this for a reason of her own, recognize that it really isn't serving her well the way she's doing it, and start working to change what is driving this pattern. (Therapy, or some such.) I'm not the one to dictate HOW she treats this, but I think she's got to address it.

That is supposed to be the first step.  It took some serious help for my dBPDh to realize that he had his own issue and start working on it.  It took even longer and a lot of help for him to truly accept it.  He was still blaming me for a couple of years into this work and only now really gets it is about something wrong with him.  I had to focus on myself and what I needed and let him do the work himself.

[braveSun]

"Something" is for her to recognize that she's doing this for a reason of her own, recognize that it really isn't serving her well the way she's doing it, and start working to change what is driving this pattern. (Therapy, or some such.) I'm not the one to dictate HOW she treats this, but I think she's got to address it.

So far, she hasn't even acknowledged to me that there is a problem in how she does this. It is possible that she won't even see it as a problem to address.

GK, do you remember having had conversations about your (and her) values in the past?

I see that in my relationship, which is affected by my SO's compulsive behavior, the key issue brought up between the two of us while she did the SA therapy was about her values.

Granted, she felt (and still feels) conflicted by the discrepancies between her values and her behavior. That's where she feels the remorse when she does.

I agree that it's a good idea to bring it up in the MC sessions. I found that like with MissyM's H, my SO was encouraged to show up to her values, even 'confronted' sometimes, and this took the charge off of me, so to speak.

Another aspect is about me. I did not realise this but after a good while well into the dynamic. There was a little me inside which did not want to cause more trouble. This me was not asking for what she wanted.

a) I had a conflict between two of my values:

1. I care about her and I don't want to add suffering by making it more difficult than it is for her.

2. I have a right to ask for what gives me a sense of well-being.

b) I was scared I'll lose the relationship if I bring it up as a non-negociable.

Now I see that I need to 'dare' more in appropriate areas. But 'daring' is not the same thing than stating a harsh boundary. Does that make any sense?

[patientandclear]

She's not stupid. Grey areas on these limits aren't the problem. Her needs that conflict with these limits are the problem.

GK ... .I just want to highlight this one very simple very stark thing you said.

Her needs conflict with your needs in a pretty fundamental way.

One thing I had to accept is that -- that is OK.  My ex could be him.  I could be me.  But at some point one of us had to admit that what we needed and could give did not match.  I found myself writing those words to him almost without conscious movement to that position ... ."it's probably good to see that what we need and can give don't match."

I felt quite a bit of relief (and a ton of sadness of course) in writing those words.  It was a really simple truth.  It was a true truth.  What he needs and can give does not match what I need and can give.  I can't give indifference to whether I am the primary person in his life.  He can't give me that primary commitment.  Well, there you go.  He thought I was concluding bad things about him but I really wasn't.  We could both be excellent people.  But excellent people who couldn't possibly meet one another's needs.

[formflier]

Now I see that I need to 'dare' more in appropriate areas. But 'daring' is not the same thing than stating a harsh boundary. Does that make any sense?

A very similar dynamic has played out... .is playing out... .in my r/s.  I'm still not "harsh" on my boundaries... .but I have been clear... .and I even explained how some boundary enforcement on my part... .actually benefits her.  My wife seems to be onboard with it.

I wish I had thought through some of the boundaries earlier... .because I think my r/s would be much better... .much sooner.

[formflier]

 

Grey,

How often is it obvious that your wife does things "just for you"... .or puts aside her feelings to "take care of" your feelings.

[MissyM]

A very similar dynamic has played out... .is playing out... .in my r/s.  I'm still not "harsh" on my boundaries... .but I have been clear... .and I even explained how some boundary enforcement on my part... .actually benefits her.  My wife seems to be onboard with it.

I wish I had thought through some of the boundaries earlier... .because I think my r/s would be much better... .much sooner.

I feel the same way.  Although I had no idea that I really had a lack of boundaries because I was pretty clear about what I wanted.  Problem was I didn't have a deep knowing within myself and instead turned it into a power struggle (yeah BPDs respond well to that).  I actually divorced my dBPDh because he wouldn't get help for his drug addiction.  Once he went to rehab I took him back.  That is where I failed on my boundaries, I should not have continued the relationship when my dBPDh stopped doing recovery work.  I was trying too hard not to be "controlling" and dropped that part of my boundary (only staying in this relationship while we are both in recovery). 

[vortex of confusion]

I feel the same way.  Although I had no idea that I really had a lack of boundaries because I was pretty clear about what I wanted.  Problem was I didn't have a deep knowing within myself and instead turned it into a power struggle (yeah BPDs respond well to that).  I actually divorced my dBPDh because he wouldn't get help for his drug addiction.  Once he went to rehab I took him back.  That is where I failed on my boundaries, I should not have continued the relationship when my dBPDh stopped doing recovery work.  I was trying too hard not to be "controlling" and dropped that part of my boundary (only staying in this relationship while we are both in recovery). 

What has changed this time around MissyM?

I can be clear within myself (or I think I am) of what I want but I struggle with communicating that to my partner. And, I also struggle with finding the courage and strength to enforce my boundaries. How have you found the courage and strength to do this? Right now, I think I know what I want but one of the things that I am worried about is trying to enforce my boundaries in a consistent manner.

I have communicated what I want to my partner and I get stuck in this spot where I think: "If he truly understood what I am saying and wanting, then he would honor my wishes?" So, when he doesn't honor my wishes, I find myself thinking that maybe I am not communicating clearly enough because, in my mind, if he understood what I was trying to say or do then he would get on board. It sounds a little bit like GK's situation (not sure for certain). At what point does one accept that the other party isn't going to understand and isn't going to honor my wishes? Or is that too black and white?

[MissyM]

Vortex, all great questions.

"If he truly understood what I am saying and wanting, then he would honor my wishes?" So, when he doesn't honor my wishes, I find myself thinking that maybe I am not communicating clearly enough because, in my mind, if he understood what I was trying to say or do then he would get on board. It sounds a little bit like GK's situation (not sure for certain). At what point does one accept that the other party isn't going to understand and isn't going to honor my wishes? Or is that too black and white?

Oh, I hated that space.  I would tell him again and again what I wanted.  He would seem to understand and then not do it.  Now, I have taken my power back.  I cannot make him do anything but will respond in a specific way.  One of these was around sex.  I wasn't going to have sex if my dBPDh was in contact with other women.  I was clear with that.  When he admitted he had still been doing that, I had to take a break from sex.  It wasn't as a punishment but as a way to take care of myself.  It took some ownership and amends before I felt safe enough to reinitiate.  Boundaries can't be used as a weapon, but as a way to honor and protect myself.  Maybe because my husband is BPD, he was super sensitive to that and can really tell when I am trying to beat him up with a boundary instead of take care of myself.  It is learning to respond instead of react.

And, I also struggle with finding the courage and strength to enforce my boundaries. How have you found the courage and strength to do this? Right now, I think I know what I want but one of the things that I am worried about is trying to enforce my boundaries in a consistent manner.

A lot of therapy, I think doing the therapy group with other partners of SAs was the best thing I did.  That help me immensely, also I went away for a week of treatment and they just kept honing in on boundaries.  I had to figure out what my non-negotiables in a relationship were, that was about me and no one else could define it for me.  Then I presented them to  him in therapy in a non-shaming way.  I have just had to stay consistent, which came out of really getting clear with myself and accountability people what my boundaries are.

[yeeter]

In my mind, I think I am playing with this:

If he loves me, he will take a certain action. If he doesn't take that action, then that means that he doesn't really love me. If he doesn't really love me now, does that mean that our whole relationship has been one big fat lie? If it has all been one big fat lie, what the heck am I still doing here?

Maybe.  But its easy to get too wrapped up in analyzing the past.  Try resetting your mind to the here and now.  What you know today (of which the past patterns play into).  And knowing what you know today, what are your decisions and actions going forward?

[Crumbling]

One thing I had to accept is that -- that is OK.  My ex could be him.  I could be me.  But at some point one of us had to admit that what we needed and could give did not match.  I found myself writing those words to him almost without conscious movement to that position ... ."it's probably good to see that what we need and can give don't match."

I felt quite a bit of relief (and a ton of sadness of course) in writing those words.  It was a really simple truth.  It was a true truth.  What he needs and can give does not match what I need and can give.  I can't give indifference to whether I am the primary person in his life.  He can't give me that primary commitment.  Well, there you go.  He thought I was concluding bad things about him but I really wasn't.  We could both be excellent people.  But excellent people who couldn't possibly meet one another's needs.

  well said, PaC!  You've described how I feel to a tee.  And I think maybe I'm grieving the loss of that relationship, the one I held hope in, the one where he would fill all my needs, and I his.  It's really hard to accept.  I feel so cheated sometimes, but that's why I need to stay focused on me, and my needs.  And learn to accept him for who he is.      It feels good to feel understood.

GK -

Yes, the open relationship issue complicates things a bit. I don't see it as THE problem. My wife was flirting and managed to completely betray me and violate my trust with another guy while we were monogamous. Lots of kissing and making out, with a sexual/spiritual connection going on.

So, I hear you saying she violated a trust way back in the relationship and it has grown into what you are dealing with now, is it not?  You've mentioned the repetition of these behaviours and how you don't think she is capable of respecting your boundaries... .

Changing the agreement isn't going to make it easier for her to stick with it... .unless the agreement is that she is a free agent, with no limits.

My truth includes that the behavior feels repetitive, and I need something from her... .

IMO, It's time for Grey Kitty to maybe do what Mrs G is doing, and tend to your own needs... .you're way, what ever that looks like for you.  You say you NEED to have some defined form of trust in your relationship, which includes a boundary.  

You deserve to have trust in a relationship, everyone does, however you define it.  You are not wrong for making the choice to do/say what is best for you, regardless of what excuse she presents to you for her behaviour.  

Want vs need.      You've said it before, hun, she hears you, but does nothing about it when you discuss this.  You've also said you want her in your life.  That needs to be validated, too.  But is it as important as what you need?  

Maybe it might help to ask which of your relationship goals is a want, and which ones are what you truly need?

, c.

[yeeter]

She's not stupid. Grey areas on these limits aren't the problem. Her needs that conflict with these limits are the problem.

GK ... .I just want to highlight this one very simple very stark thing you said.

Her needs conflict with your needs in a pretty fundamental way.

This is critical.  And sometimes really really difficult to face - that her NEEDS and yours, are fundamentally at odds with each other.  It seems that you have already done a lot of soul searching on just what your needs are.  Wear them.  Use them.  And grow comfortable with them.  If you can get clear and comfortable with what your needs are, then decision making and action is clear and easy.  

We can try to bend ourselves too much.  At the same time by trying to live it, sometimes we learn what we thought was a need was something we could survive without all along. That is the journey.  Clarify your needs.  Then determine your options for fulfilling those needs.  Some can come from outside the relationship, but some have to come from within.  Then you will know what the relationship IS, and what it ISNT, and can go forward from there.

Goodluck GK.    

[yeeter]

And I think maybe I'm grieving the loss of that relationship, the one I held hope in, the one where he would fill all my needs, and I his.  It's really hard to accept.  I feel so cheated sometimes, but that's why I need to stay focused on me, and my needs.  And learn to accept him for who he is.     It feels good to feel understood.

YES!

It is a loss.  A major loss (what you dreamed a relationship would be, intertwined with your own future going forward).  I went through the stages of grief:  Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance.

I found it a relevant model.

[formflier]

that her NEEDS and yours, are fundamentally at odds with each other.  

For purposes of our discussion here... .are we on good footing to call these issues "needs"... .or "wants"... .or "values"

I like to keep "need" as a word that gets used for true "life issues"... .food, air, water... .

I could see a really well thought through value being a "need"... .and I think GK has done that.

I'm suspicious of calling his wife's desires a "need" because I don't think they are well thought through... .or that she is in the proper emotional state to "think them through"

Just a thought... .

Is there a better word to use than "need"?

[myself]

that her NEEDS and yours, are fundamentally at odds with each other.  

For purposes of our discussion here... .are we on good footing to call these issues "needs"... .or "wants"... .or "values"

I like to keep "need" as a word that gets used for true "life issues"... .food, air, water... .

I could see a really well thought through value being a "need"... .and I think GK has done that.

I'm suspicious of calling his wife's desires a "need" because I don't think they are well thought through... .or that she is in the proper emotional state to "think them through"

Just a thought... .

Is there a better word to use than "need"?

If 'needs' are for survival in life, there are also 'needs' to survive within a relationship. Such as honesty, trust, commitment, etc. Even with the most well thought out versions of this, if you don't walk the walk and follow through are the 'needs' then as important as claimed? There's a difference between just surviving and thriving, isn't there? Otherwise it's more like 'craving' or 'distraction' or 'moves made from fears' or what have you.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .