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Author Topic: Is it possible to improve this  (Read 408 times)
reig

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« on: January 16, 2015, 01:51:06 PM »

After reading articles on the board, I realized that my reactions have not been the healthiest and appropriate and maybe a different approach would be more effective and healthier.

I don't know if it's too late now, but I'd be willing  to try with support from the board (if possible). She was out of town for longer than 2 months (which is stressful in itself). She has other partners both here and there some of whom are long term. Before she left we had a conflict where I left angrily. I called her the next day and asked her if she is free (usually in these cases I don't discuss the conflict and just ask her if she is free and if she is I tell her where to meet me: in the past she'd usually say she is free, however in this case she said she is not free). I just said good bye. This was 2 days before she left town. The culture where I live is very different from western and US culture and women are often expected to be obedient so this situation and some of my language may be considered typical here (e.g if I tell her to be obedient). On the other hand if tell her to be an obedient , this is not quite typical; this is more due to her being slutty and submissive and the way we began to interact after I found out about the multitude of partners. I think something similar happened with her ex (I think he used similar language w her). She has lived in the west so she may not be a typical woman here.

About 3 weeks later she contacted me while she was out of town. I thought about whether I should respond and I called her about 12 hours later. She did not respond. I later texted "you will respond when I call you,". She called. It was a jealousy game where I can hear another man's voice. I made some sexual remarks and she said she'll call me later. We never discussed the previous conflict and just continued as usual. This is probably unhealthy; I probably should have asked her why she is calling and maybe we should have discussed what we both want but somehow we never did that. I also sometimes thought it's futile. She claimed that she is busy (I am not sure she was that busy). Who knows maybe she just reinitiated contact to toy with me and I assumed she wants to continue seeing me. I don't remember everything but a week later she sent some blank drawing pages in a messaging app. I asked what it was. (no idea what that was about). We had a longer skype sex session. The next day or 2 days later I asked her to call me on skype but she said she had no time and she was working. At one point I asked her what she was doing. She responded with a brief "working" then 2 minutes later "and you?" I was annoyed with the brief contact and did not respond. She called later that night I think and I did not respond at all. The next day I texted her and asked how she was doing. I think if I don't respond fairly quickly she typically goes into revenge mode. It then progressed to her being busy and calling me for 5 minutes and eventually refusing to buy me some small item which I asked for (it's much cheaper where she is and I'd give her the money).  

At this point I blocked her a few weeks ago and somewhat impulsively sent her an insulting message listing her defects and a message to off. I actually wrote the message about her defects weeks before sending it, as self therapy to express anger and it was never meant to be sent to her or anyone else. I also thought (at the time) about sending it as a defence; that it may be a way to have her stop contact with me even if I attempt it later. Then I unblocked about 2 weeks later and attempted contact. I don't know if she ever responded or attempted contact during the 2-3 wks. She then told me to off due to the opinions expressed in the insulting message (not necessarily the actual reason). I attempted to make light of it by saying  it was not meant for her (I sent it to her by mistake) and sent her some compliments and some compliments with funny twists on them. e.g. "I like your hair when I pull it"

She responded with several angry messages saying that she does not care what I think and that that's all from her. That I've changed a lot since I moved and that she does not even know why she is responding.

We did have many breakups and reunions in the past. This one is similar but maybe stronger feeling were expressed.

I welcome suggestions about what to do from here.

In the past 3 years, the first year was the typical idealization where we spent most days together and things were mostly ok with some red flags. In the last 2 years it became increasingly worse and I became increasingly reactive and angry. She is blaming it all on me as is typical and says that I changed a lot since I moved. (what really happened is she started devaluing me and attacking me a lot more and I provided fewer benefits probably). After reading here, if I understand correctly,  it appears that I would need to change and not hurt her back even when she hurts me in order to stop the cycle of revenge. This makes sense when I think about our previous contact because even though I rationally think she hurt me once and I can hurt her back once, apparently in her mind it's I hurt him once and then he hurt me once so I can now hurt him again, even several times.

The typical things she does to me are inducing jealousy via 'cuckolding' (if we can call it that in this situation), flirting in front of me; calling me and purposely allowing male voices to be heard; purposely not doing what she knows I want her to do for me (buy me something that inexpensive in another country, invite me to her parent's house or other property, go on vacation without me, etc), constantly testing my boundaries and attempting control.

A lot of her revenge is 'justified' by her because I left her temporarily; It doesn't seem to matter how I left, whether it's for 2 hours to take care of something without any hard feelings on my part or I did not say anything and left because she threw a tantrum (this one may cause temporary good behavior on her part) or I left angrily etc. She will say that I can't just leave like that and that I went to have sex with someone, so then, she goes and has sex with someone else and then tells me about it (once she dressed seductively and conned me by saying she'll call me to join in the club in half hour and then did not call; she came back and said that she did not have sex while it was obvious that she did. I could have stopped her but did not because of the con.)

I spank her. She can be submissive sexually and appears to want to anger me so that I would punish her.This also turns her on. We did this in the beginning for fun also when there was no anger between us. I think she prefers this to NC, leaving her or verbal put downs.  I also make her do things for me when she is irresponsible e.g. buy me dinner, clean my room or give me a massage for an hour; I have her choose or say what she is going to do. I am often too slow to defend myself in real time and she'll either con me or I will not stop her.

I don't know if I should continue that or not. I could spank her just because it's fun for us and not necessarily as punishment. Opinions?

After reading here, I think I probably should not criticize her verbally or block her for extended periods. I think I should probably continue just leaving her if she throws a tantrum and not respond if she sends angry messages. I should respond to her if she sends a normal message or calls without anger and blaming. What would be a good way to respond if she calls and is angry and blaming as I can't tell her mood before I hear her voice? Opinions?

This is of course all theoretical as I am not sure if she will initiate contact with me and I don't know if I should attempt to contact her at this point and how I'd do it if I did.  Suggestions? Opinions?

I think she is now back in town but I am not 100 sure.

I could post the complete text of our latest interactions if that's useful.
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2015, 02:07:51 PM »

Why do you want a woman you think of as a ____? If it's just sex, buddy, you can get that anywhere. But you're writing here so I suspect it isn't. What I am learning is that I need to be a better me. Don't get me wrong, do what you think is you, but don't turn into something darker to please a woman who is unhealthy. Since my break up, I have kept the tv at a minimum, I have been reading more, watched no porn (she told me it affected the way I touched her), and found interests to occupy me.

Her abandonment issues seem pretty intense. Maybe when you leave, you start with "I will be gone for two hours and back at X. I love you." That way the boundary is defined, and you can see how she responds to it. If she immediately runs the jealousy game, the issue will take more. Does she see the problem or is she even aware that there is one? If not, you're in for one hell of a ride. She'll never stop doing this until she acknowledges that something is wrong. You cannot make her see that. You cannot fix her. You can only let her fix herself, and tell her you'll stick with her through it. What is it you want from this relationship?
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reig

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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2015, 02:47:04 PM »

Because she is a good ___ :-) (just kidding; I think it's because I am addicted). I can't get sex anywhere. I am older and not some casanova or great looking either. Unfortunately I somehow have trouble being attracted to average or below average looking girls and I reject them. I need to work on that somehow as they could have other qualities. Unfortunately, what's been happening even they (this country is really poor) have been asking questions about my material status upon meeting me. It's as if even the below average girls think they can be golddiggers or maybe these are just the ones that showed interest, I don't know.

I am also not healthy and have little energy.

I am not sure I should say "I love you" seriously. I do say it for fun and ironically, though. This would lead to her immediately losing interest. As a defence, I actually tried to verbally let her know I am not attached to her so she would behave better. She can probably still sense that I am attached via my actions (and jealousy and anger). Once, I accidentally said that I was emotionally attached to her. We were talking about swinging (she wanted to do gangbangs, swinging and have other men watch us having sex, orgies). Of course she'd be massively pissed off if I had sex with another woman even if she was present and asked what would happen afterwards (if we had sex with another couple). I accidentally responded that way. I am not sure, but I think that was a key moment where her behavior turned to even worse. Of course verbalizing my supposed lack of attachment may not have been a good idea either.

Part of the problem is I like to be private and don't really discuss where and why I am going  and how long I'll be. I'd also feel controlled if I had to do that. I guess I could somehow try to make it easier for her but not sure how.

If this has not ended, then we are certainly in the stage of battling for control.

She is not aware. I doubt she'd want to change. In the past she said that she likes how she is. She pathologically lies so her words are meaningless.

I did tell her she is mentally ill or not normal but did not mention PDs. Initially I thought she was bipolar and told her that. I sometimes try to make light of it and tease her about "emptiness". She may respond that I am not normal either which is true. She used to ask me if I like the fact that she is not normal and I used to respond that I do like it (this was during idealization). She also asked me to believe her lies.

I am not trying to fix her, I don't even discuss our conflicts; I almost take them for granted and I assumed there was no other way. After reading on this board I think maybe there is some hope. I'd like us to be more stable so that it's less stressful. Unfortunately I am sensitive and I reacted to her attacks. It's been a revenge fest in the last year or so.

I am also experiencing a lot of stress and illness outside of contact with her and it's then harder for me to be unreactive.




Why do you want a woman you think of as a ___? If it's just sex, buddy, you can get that anywhere. But you're writing here so I suspect it isn't. What I am learning is that I need to be a better me. Don't get me wrong, do what you think is you, but don't turn into something darker to please a woman who is unhealthy. Since my break up, I have kept the tv at a minimum, I have been reading more, watched no porn (she told me it affected the way I touched her), and found interests to occupy me.

Her abandonment issues seem pretty intense. Maybe when you leave, you start with "I will be gone for two hours and back at X. I love you." That way the boundary is defined, and you can see how she responds to it. If she immediately runs the jealousy game, the issue will take more. Does she see the problem or is she even aware that there is one? If not, you're in for one hell of a ride. She'll never stop doing this until she acknowledges that something is wrong. You cannot make her see that. You cannot fix her. You can only let her fix herself, and tell her you'll stick with her through it. What is it you want from this relationship?

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reig

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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2015, 03:42:24 PM »

I am not sure what you mean by "does she see the problem". Do you mean her abandonment anxiety?

I have mentioned it to her. She once lied that she does not have it any more (after I said I am not attached maybe a year ago). I don't even know if it's abandonment anxiety or just an excuse to be promiscuous (manipulation).

The way she runs the attack recently has been underhanded as a lot of her attacks are. They are often, new, something I have not experienced, cons and undercover. I am also often tired and barely functioning when it's really late which makes it easier to con me and harder for me to defend myself (I may also have traits of a nice guy/push over type: I have a strange combination of dominant and nice guy traits). She'll say that she wants to go dancing. This means a club and a lot of alcohol. I finally realized that whenever she wanted to go dancing, I had left her previously for 2 hours  or longer. She has pretended that she is pissed at me and stormed off in a club. I did not follow her. She once said that she has to do something (she has 'business meetings in clubs while provocatively dressed) while we are in a club and goes off for half an hour. I could have stopped this and finally eventually started stopping her; I started also controlling her drinking by taking all her money and apartment keys. However I am turning into some kind of chaperone and can't relax. I guess this is typical from reading here. She is very successfully following the same pattern I am sure.

Once it was in the club and while looking for a taxi. She was wasted and I stupidly left her to look for a cab. No cabs could be called by  phone. I separated for about 15 minutes in heavy rain.  Big mistake. She ended up getting in a taxi with 2 other men and brought them to her apartment... .She was blaming it on me because I left her. Of course she had a phone at all times but only called after she got into the other  taxi.

I obviously fit nicely into the pattern of obsessing and constantly trying to figure out how to behave while it's impossible to really predict how a disordered girl will react. Maybe that is some kind of attempt to fix her even though I am mostly thinking about it in terms of defense and my own behavior. Since I can't figure out what to do I'll look for some kind of advice and follow that.
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waverider
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If YOU don't change, things will stay the same


« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2015, 05:28:56 PM »

Hi Reid

The reality here is that you are both dysfunctional. Neither of you know what you really want in life and you are both reacting to adrenelin triggers. You both require these triggers, this is what is keeping you addicted to each other and constantly returning to each other.

Tit for tat abuse is just self sabotage for you both.

What do you want long term, either with this person or without?

How would you like your future to unfold?

If you want this or any relationship to work you will have to change. Do you want to take the first step and take responsibility to get yourself in order. until you change you are unlikely to find a stable relationship with anyone.

Some people go through their entire live bouncing off each other in an unstable way, as they are feeding each others need for drama. Is this you? Could you cope with a normal non drama, no adrenalin and less challenging relationship? or would that bore you?

If this was your ideal then why would you be involved with someone who is incapable of providing it?

If you dont want to compete for her affections then you need boundaries, but the question remains does competing form part of the challenge?

Going back to the topic title, before you can improve anything you need to define what it is you would call better
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reig

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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2015, 09:09:00 PM »

hi, thanks for responding.

Would you write a little more about your opinion on adrenaline triggers.

I was in a 20 year relationship before her. It was not perfect but it did not resemble this whatsoever. She was in a 7 year 'relationship' apparently which is similar to our contact in some ways.

I agree. I'd have to stop responding with abuse. She probably can't do that on her own so I'd have to do it and see if it makes a difference. Surprisingly, she actually said that once, too, that we have to stop it (unfortunately there is no way to know what that means due to her pathological lying and manipulations). I became too angry and critical and basically dragged myself down to her level or she infected me or I am disordered and my schemas are triggered or... .

I was just reading about treatment for BPD in schema therapy. Interesting: "First, our borderline patients almost always seemed to have almost all of the eighteen schemas". I actually did begin using the book at one point but did not continue. I should probably continue. Attempt to reduce stress via mindfulness, exercise (right now I cannot exercise due to illness which is a problem), solving other family problems.

I wonder if I could borrow some techniques from schema therapy treatment for BPD: it'd be useful to see the full text of the book used by therapists.

I would need to increase sympathy for her somehow (some materials on this board could be helpful and reminding myself about the nature of BPD/HPD/cluster B: this is just thinking aloud but sometimes I think of her as more HPD due to her being an artist, lack of cutting and suicide threats, attempts to stand out in the manner of dress, exploitation/manipulation of multiple men esp for material benefit).

Learning to better recognize 1.  the Abandoned Child 2.  the Angry Child 3.  the Punitive Parent  4.  the Detached Protector and responding according to her state if that's possible or effective for a partner.

"superimposing the image of a small child or infant over the patient can help the therapist understand the patient better and know what to do."

It's interesting that when I am in a good mood I often think of her as a child, but when I am in a bad mood (and unfortunately bad moods are much more common for me now due to stress caused by her and other situations not related to her; she unfortunately cannot help me whatsoever so I'd need to find other sources of comfort) then I am more reactive. I also have less ability to help her and deal with her constant need for care.

Understand better how I am triggering her and possibly reduce that behaviour.

I actually dislike the drama; it's stressful and draining. I would not be bored without it. I like the sex and her company when she is half normal. In the first year (idealization) there was not as much drama and there was a lot of sex. That's how I was hooked. I was however probably acting as almost a perfect parent. It started in the 2nd year after we moved and she was leaving town for months at a time because she now lives in 2 different cities. I also became less parent-like, provided less excitement and entertainment, her benefits were reduced (e.g. driving her around or taking her to the doctor) and I started expecting her to be more independent, adult, responsible and expected her to actually help me like I was helping her before.  I also did not have access to all the social activities and a car that I had in the previous city. She said at one point that  I was not as interesting any more. I responded with something like "yes, that's what I am, an entertainer; I took you out to 200 different places [literally] why don't you entertain me for a while, now". I started expecting her to do things for me that I did for her in the past. I think many of these expectations don't make sense but I did not know it at the time. They are all probably less important than my increased reactiveness and lack of immediate boundary setting due to inexperience, etc

"If you dont want to compete for her affections then you need boundaries, but the question remains does competing form part of the challenge?"

I am not sure I  understand "does competing form part of the challenge". If it means do I like to compete for her, then, no, I am not actually competitive in that sense and in general. I dislike direct competition and often think it's crass.

I assume you mean, my lack of boundaries caused her to have multiple partners (at least in the same city; I doubt there would be any way to control that when she is out of town for months; she has a very strong sex drive).  That does make sense. Can you give some examples of how I could appropriately set boundaries in those situations.

Crazymaking and gaslighting example: after we moved (2nd year) and she could not reach me for 3 days. I was in another country and could not receive calls but she had my email address. After I came back:

She 'accidentally' dropped some condoms on the ground so that I saw them, then quickly picked them up, then moved to the small kitchen still visible to me and looked somewhat uncomfortable and guilty. She said something like "women have all kinds of things in their purse". This was at the time when she supposedly had no other partners in that city so condoms would indicate this was not the case. She later said that she did not sleep with anyone; then said she did with a friend of a friend who left town and that it was because I did not respond for 3 days (she had  a childlike smile when she said this, like a child that made some minor mistake and attempted to pull a blanket over her head;  she later probably said that she made that up. What would be an appropriate response in that situation?

example 2: she sends a photo of herself with someone's foot in her lap. She claims that it's not a foot and that I am imagining. thoughts?

I don't necessarily have an ideal relationship in mind. They could be different but it would be nice if they did not cause stress. We both find rough sex exciting. She is younger (I was middle aged after divorce), quite attractive and somewhat submissive. It sounds like she used the typical mirroring techniques. As is typical I fell for the idealization (had no experience with it or PDs) and now I like the occasional 'normal' aspect of her and sex but hate the disordered part.

Better would be more normal behaviour, reducing conflict and revenge, helping each other, reducing or managing abandonment anxiety (it appears that's the biggest trigger for her unless it's all manipulation), reduction of battling for control, more adult behaviour, less manipulation, gaslighting, crazy making, jealousy inducing behaviour, binge drinking, pathological lying, raging.


Hi Reid

The reality here is that you are both dysfunctional. Neither of you know what you really want in life and you are both reacting to adrenelin triggers. You both require these triggers, this is what is keeping you addicted to each other and constantly returning to each other.

Tit for tat abuse is just self sabotage for you both.

What do you want long term, either with this person or without?

How would you like your future to unfold?

If you want this or any relationship to work you will have to change. Do you want to take the first step and take responsibility to get yourself in order. until you change you are unlikely to find a stable relationship with anyone.

Some people go through their entire live bouncing off each other in an unstable way, as they are feeding each others need for drama. Is this you? Could you cope with a normal non drama, no adrenalin and less challenging relationship? or would that bore you?

If this was your ideal then why would you be involved with someone who is incapable of providing it?

If you dont want to compete for her affections then you need boundaries, but the question remains does competing form part of the challenge?

Going back to the topic title, before you can improve anything you need to define what it is you would call better

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reig

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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2015, 04:40:29 AM »

I'd love to hear opinions on how to continue here. Yesterday, I sent 3 messages.

1 Sorry, I overdid it [referring to my message with insults; this is my attempt to be less reactive and reduce conflict; I never apologized in the past and blamed her instead/punished her physically; I never verbally insulted her or exposed all her weaknesses verbally all at once to that extent: I had been doing it in smaller doses]

2. How exactly did I change after moving, what is it that I did there, that I don't do here and which of these are important to you. [In an angry response from her with many other things, she also mentioned how I changed; she's mentioned it many times but I never asked specifically in the past.]

3. I sent some funny posters. Non sexual.

Her response was only to 3 with "You made me laugh :*

I'd love to hear comments on this.



I'd also love to hear a response about boundary setting in cases of jealousy attack right in front of me.
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2015, 06:32:38 AM »

Hey reig:

Like Waverider I find the situation a bit dysfunctional on both sides but every situation with challenges in it usually is. A couple of things. Was she a rebound after a failed twenty year relationship? Been there and done that and it's the only reason I ask.

Reig I live a relative success story that was slowly build from about as desperate a relationship as you will find on here, short of physical violence entering into the scenario. I've done that solely by learning to both understand the illness from the reality of my wife and learning how to better react myself to situations to allow her to maintain in her reality, without judgments but support. You can say both of those things as quickly as you like but it takes a lot of time to learn altered thinking, radical acceptance of realities and build the trust to hope that she confides in you about her thoughts, on-going constant challenges, know she's telling the truth and telling all.

There is a really good book advertised here: Loving Someone with Borderline Personality. Although I'm not certain it goes into great detail of some of the more extreme thinking of some people with BPD what it does do is really help you to learn to rethink and control your own responses. The real trick is knowing enough about how the illness plays out in the mind and actions of a loved one and trusting absolutely what you're reading to rid yourself both of partial responsibility in some situations and better empathize with the REAL thought patterns, emotions and reactions of the person you love. It's so easy to say "She's being manipulative:, "She does this to intentionally hurt me", "How can she lash out at me and when someone else shows up and she instantly turn into an amiable angel?. It really is all difficult to understand completely from a positive aspect and recognize how and why all these things we question are not actually the way we sometimes interpret them. Fact is, we seem to always interpret from our own, non-emotional rationale and that can never relate to the reality she experiences.

The most difficult thing in all of this is removing your learning from your personal past experiences with her and opening up your mind to the possibilities of her reality and accepting them completely and knowing that's what you have to work with - or not, whichever your choice is. Basing your actions, reactions and personal assessments on comparing her to someone who is rational and (don't like the intent of the word) but sane only confuses you and the situation. If you can learn both how and particularly what compels her to think the way she does you can clearly see the ways to validate her statements and actions to bring a situation closer that she can trust confiding in you and allow both of you closer and more affective communications that open up opportunities to make changes that are more positive for both of you.

Trust and learn how to naturally use the tools here and in those other books - they work - but they have to be used naturally and not just given a rhetorical lip-service when put in practice or she'll know that.

Can't say for the volatility of your situation and relationship why you would stay in it but I've learned enough to know that's just my initial take and know nothing about your situation and don't have a right to comment on it. The only comment I can make is the more you really dig in and learn well, the better the chance to improve the situation you chose to be in my friend.

Good luck with it and I hope it all works out well for both of you.

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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2015, 10:53:34 AM »

The culture where I live is very different from western and US culture and women are often expected to be obedient so this situation and some of my language may be considered typical here (e.g if I tell her to be obedient).

reig,

What is the culture you speak of here?

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reig

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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2015, 03:35:22 PM »

It's a southeastern european country. I am generalizing, so there are of course exceptions. Maybe it's a little bit similar to the US in the 50s.
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2015, 03:58:55 PM »

We're an international board.  Knowing what culture/country we're dealing with will help bring people that can help this discussion.
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