Focusing on specific behaviors

[vortex of confusion]

In another topic, I said I was trying to focus on specific behaviors and how those behaviors impact me.

I think I have seen Form Flier and others say something about focusing on specific behaviors.

Anyway, what I am trying to do is get a discussion going about how I can do a better job of focusing on behaviors that impact ME directly.

In other words, I may not like the fact that my husband is doing something but I want to do a better job of keeping my mouth shut and NOT rescuing or butting in.

And, I am wondering how specific or general to keep the focus. For example, one of my big issues is my husband's lack of follow through. It doesn't seem reasonable for me to say anything to him about not following through on something if it doesn't impact me (or the kids) directly. Trying to sort this out in my head.

Does that make any sense?

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[Notwendy]

There is a concept- functional behavioral assessment, which applies to everyone, dysfunctional or not and of any age. Basically, there is a payoff to every behavior. If you can know the payoff, you will know why a person does what they do. The problem with a dysfunctional person, is that their own personal payoff can be so different from a non-dysfunctional person, that it is pretty hard to figure out. Sometimes, what you think is  punishing a behavior can be a reward. Even if a behavior has a high "cost" to the person, if the payoff is higher, the behavior will continue.

For example, a kid is bored in class, or doesn't want to do the assignment, or can't do it and doesn't want to be humiliated by admitting it, so he acts up as the class clown and disrupts the teacher. The teacher "punishes" him by sending him to the principal's office, where he probably gets in trouble. The behavior gets worse, he acts up more, and the teacher keeps punishing him, and can't figure out why he keeps doing it if he gets in trouble. It's because the payoff is greater than the trouble.

He gets out of the assignment

He actually gets to control the classroom by disrupting the teacher

He gets attention from the class- kids laugh at his jokes and think he's cool.

The teacher is going to have to figure out something else. Schools use functional behavioral assessment to deal with these things. There is much written about it.

Addictions have very strong payoffs in terms of avoidance, escape, and pleasure. These payoffs are much higher than the cost of having one: health, relationships. Having a co-dependent partner who takes care of the messes the addict makes can reduce the costs of the behavior, making the addict even less likely to feel them, so they pursue the payoff more.

It is very hard to make changes on multiple behaviors at the same time. It is easier to focus on one of them. However, every behavior between two people involves payoffs and costs. It is hard to change another person, so analyzing your own behavior may be a better place to start. (when I say "you", I am not targeting just you, Vortex, it is just semantics here in explaining how to do this).

With kids in the mix, it makes it harder. Let's say I want my H to change a diaper. He isn't going to do it. I could try everything, but in the end, I am not going to let a baby sit in a dirty diaper. I'm going to cave in and do it. However, if he was sitting in his own dirty diaper, I could just let him sit in it until he coudn't stand it and then he'd do something about it.

I do a lot of rescuing. I could have let mom face the consequences of not having brownies, leaving her to figure it out herself or not bring them, or go out and buy them. As a kid, I didn't have a lot of freedom to not take care of her, but I also reinforced that she could get me to do what she wanted by raging at me. I also reinforce my H rages because that gets me to do what he wants. The payoff for me, is not having to deal with the rage. Until I can control my own emotional response to the rages, I am going to give in to them. I am likely to be more effective working on my response than to get him to stop raging, however, I can also stop reinforcing the rages and since they won't work for him, it will be his problem to figure out how to get what he wants.

I'm reading the Stop Caretaking the BPD/NPD book and it is an eye opener. As long as we are in caretaker role, their behavior works for them. However, our role as Caretaker also works for us, even if we also pay a personal price for it. Change begins with us, even if it doesn't seem fair.

[vortex of confusion]

It is very hard to make changes on multiple behaviors at the same time. It is easier to focus on one of them. However, every behavior between two people involves payoffs and costs. It is hard to change another person, so analyzing your own behavior may be a better place to start. (when I say "you", I am not targeting just you, Vortex, it is just semantics here in explaining how to do this).

Thanks for the input Notwendy!

When I say that I want to focus on a specific behavior, I think I am trying t focus on myself. That is one of the things that I am trying to do is figure out how to keep the focus on ME. I realize I can't change him. What I can do is look at specific behaviors and see whether or not a boundary is warranted. He can do whatever the heck he wants but that doesn't mean that I have to stand by and watch or be the target of that behavior.

I don't think about payoffs and costs. I don't. That isn't how my mind usually works.

With kids in the mix, it makes it harder. Let's say I want my H to change a diaper. He isn't going to do it. I could try everything, but in the end, I am not going to let a baby sit in a dirty diaper. I'm going to cave in and do it. However, if he was sitting in his own dirty diaper, I could just let him sit in it until he coudn't stand it and then he'd do something about it.

In my mind, thinking about the specific behavior of "not changing a diaper" is the behavior that I can think about, analyze, and say to myself, "On this issue, I am going to change the diapers and stop saying anything to him." There is no boundary necessary and it is no longer an issue because I have thought about it and made a conscious choice to take on this responsibility as my own. I am not making the choice because of my husband or anybody else. My kids' cleanliness level is more important than a power struggle with a partner. It is an "issue" that is taken off the table so to speak. Now, that it is something that is in my arena, I have to figure out what to do with MY feelings of irritation when I am changing a diaper for the thousandth time while he does what he wants.

I'm reading the Stop Caretaking the BPD/NPD book and it is an eye opener. As long as we are in caretaker role, their behavior works for them. However, our role as Caretaker also works for us, even if we also pay a personal price for it. Change begins with us, even if it doesn't seem fair.

Hmmmm. . .I am trying to figure out how to phrase this. In my mind, focusing on the specific behaviors helps me to avoid a lot of messy labels. I want to avoid taking on labels like codependent, caretaker, enabler, rescuer, or whatever smorgasbord of labels are out there for people in my situation. And, on the flipside, I don't want to see my husband as a person with BPD. All of those labels become irrelevant when I stop and look at the specific behaviors.

I want to look at specific behaviors (by both of us) and try to identify MY values so that I can behave accordingly. I sometimes think too much time is spent trying to analyze things. I am trying to step away from that. I don't care WHY my husband does x, y, or z. That is probably inaccurate. I do care about WHY but I realize the futility of pursuing that line of thinking. I am trying to get to a place where I let him do his thing without being so invested in it unless it impacts me. What am *I* going to do about this?

[Notwendy]

I understand the idea of not wanting labels as they can be limiting, however, sometimes the label can lead to what you can do about it.

No two people are alike, but when they are grouped into labels, they are grouped by specific behaviors. The DSM V groups disorders mainly by behaviors. Since looking at behaviors is what you want to do, looking at what works for one "group" of people is likely to lead to how to manage the behaviors of people in that "group". Since most groups of people consist of a spectrum, some can be very mildly affected, and some seriously. Those two people would not be similar except for sharing some behaviors that are common to the group.

Some things work for a lot of different groups of people and some for all people.

For instance, autism is a spectrum. Someonewith autism could be highly verbal, and someone might be non verbal. Two different people can also have different personalities. However they would share certain behaviors common to autism, and the behavioral approach to those behaviors could work for both of them.

My H and my mom are so different that nobody would imagine they could be anything like each other. However, they both dysregulate and rage and say horrible things that bother me when they do. I am not like my Dad in many ways, however we both respond to being raged at by managing the bad feelings of our spouses. So looking at the label of BPD helps me understand that when they rage, they are basing their feelings on the idea that feelings are fact, however what they are blaming me for has nothing to do with what is really going on with me. Knowing that their insults are not about me helps me not react to them.

Looking at the label "Caretaker" or "codependent" helps me see what behaviors I am doing that keep me in the situations that are painful to me. I don't like them, but I keep doing them- explaining, caretaking, trying to help. The label helps me to recognize what these behaviors are and gives me tools that can help me stop them.

We can use labels to lead us to tools for working with behaviors without letting the labels define us.

[vortex of confusion]

I understand the idea of not wanting labels as they can be limiting, however, sometimes the label can lead to what you can do about it.

There is a big difference between looking at labels in order to gather information versus looking at labels as a way to group people together. Finding the label BPD and this site has been invaluable, but I don't want to look at my husband or myself in terms of a label.

No two people are alike, but when they are grouped into labels, they are grouped by specific behaviors. The DSM V groups disorders mainly by behaviors. Since looking at behaviors is what you want to do, looking at what works for one "group" of people is likely to lead to how to manage the behaviors of people in that "group". Since most groups of people consist of a spectrum, some can be very mildly affected, and some seriously. Those two people would not be similar except for sharing some behaviors that are common to the group.

I don't agree with this at all. I am aware of the DSM V and how it groups people. I don't understand how grouping people is going to help ME navigate my individual situation. I am trying to move away from a mindset that focuses on managing other people's behaviors. Not only that, but I want to see myself and my husband as individuals. I don't want to get so caught up in saying things like "most people with BPD" do x, y, or z. I don't care what other people are doing. I am trying to move the focus back to ME and how things are in MY house.

Some things work for a lot of different groups of people and some for all people.

Everybody is different. Saying that some things work for all people does not align with my experiences.

For instance, autism is a spectrum. Someonewith autism could be highly verbal, and someone might be non verbal. Two different people can also have different personalities. However they would share certain behaviors common to autism, and the behavioral approach to those behaviors could work for both of them.

How does this information help me look at ME? I am not trying to argue with you. You make some really valid points and provide some things to think about. I am trying to take the focus off BPD, etc. and, instead, focus on actual behaviors that are or are not occurring.

Yes, those behavior approaches could work for both of them but they could just as easily work for one and not the other. What I am trying to say is that I have spent years looking for bits of wisdom here and there. Some of it has been good and some of it has been not so good. I think one of the greatest benefits to sites like this is that it allows people to pool their resources and knowledge. A whole lot of people don't respond to the behavioral approaches that are set out by professionals.

I am trying to create a tool box of sorts. In my tool box, I want things that will help me live where I am without losing my mind. 

So looking at the label of BPD helps me understand that when they rage, they are basing their feelings on the idea that feelings are fact, however what they are blaming me for has nothing to do with what is really going on with me. Knowing that their insults are not about me helps me not react to them.

I completely agree with you on this. I feel like I am at a place where I want to move beyond understanding stuff like "feelings are facts". I think I got that at the moment. That is subject to change as I process things and cycle through different emotions.

For me, what I am wanting to do is untangle the mess and look at my options of how I want to or should respond in a given situation:

For example, I have identified my husband's lack of follow through as an issue that really bothers me and it does have an impact on me. I am trying to break things down into smaller, more manageable chunks so that I deal with things one at a time and make deliberate choices. I can look at emptying the dishwasher as a separate issue from changing the cat boxes. A different approach can be taken in each situation because of the level of impact it has on me.

In either of those situations, I can:

1. Keep doing what I have done in the past, which is to moan and grumble and do it myself.

2. Look at the direct impact it has on me and identify how much it does or doesn't impact me. In the case of emptying the dishwasher, it only becomes an issue to me IF I need it to be empty because I have more dishes to do. In the case of the cat box, if he doesn't change them, I have to put up with the odor, but I know that I can spray disinfectant or do other things that drown it out. As a result, I can be more patient with him on one issue.

3. I can nag and gripe about it and ride his butt until he does it.

4. Push for a system where there are direct rewards/consequences for him following through on various things around the house.

Looking at the label "Caretaker" or "codependent" helps me see what behaviors I am doing that keep me in the situations that are painful to me. I don't like them, but I keep doing them- explaining, caretaking, trying to help. The label helps me to recognize what these behaviors are and gives me tools that can help me stop them.

One of the big problems that I have with the label codependent and caretaker is that I think that there are times when it is a little too rigid. I don't like it when I read stuff that says that I shouldn't take care of my husband or other people. In my mind, on of the reasons to be in a relationship is so that both people benefit from being loved and taken care of when they need help, etc. If my husband were to reciprocate the love and care that I give him, would that suddenly mean that I am no longer a caretaker or codependent? 

I am a very compassionate person. And, I am a bit of a rebel and I don't like being told that I shouldn't be doing x, y, or z because that means that I am a caretaker or codependent. That is all too much. It is too overwhelming to look at everything at that level. I would rather look at specific things that bother ME.

[Notwendy]

Vortex, I'm not trying to argue with you either. Looking at a set of behaviors and what to do about them may not work on everyone, but if they work in many situations, then it is possibly worth it to try.

Some behavioral interventions have been tested and have been found to work on most people because of our makeup as humans. Functional Behavioral Assesment is one that seems to work on many people.

That doesn't mean there are not exceptions.

Our T went into the difference between being a Caretaker and being caring. It may look the same from the outside. It is the intention and the situation. I can cook dinner because I love taking care of my family. I can also cook dinner because if I don't, my H gets agitated and rages and I cook dinner to keep him from raging. The difference is inside of me- am I cooking from a place of love, or resentment- because when I cooked to keep him from raging, I was feeling a lot of resentment.

I was furious to get the label of codependency. I didn't think it was fair or really a good definition of me. However, sometimes I think everyone on the planet should do the steps because they are helpful to any relationship as they deal with things like fear, resentment, shame, which so many people struggle with.

It's more like if I try out a tool, and it works, then I'll  keep the tool regardless of the name of it.

[Notwendy]

The dishwasher job is tough because you have kids and you want to feed them.

However, if it is your H's job, and you do it, he learns that if he waits long enough, you will do it.

If you want to use a functional behavioral model, then you need to see what the payoff for him not emptying the dishes is. Sometimes it is not clear and trial and error is needed to find out.

However, knowing you will eventually do it is a payoff to him for waiting it out and it reinforces this behavior.

What are the consequences of him not doing it? There are no clean dishes. At what point will this bother him enough to do it? Probably past the point of you not standing it, but what kind of natural consequence can you allow to happen that is enough to bother him enough to do it?

One solution would be to refuse to fix any meals without clean plates.

Buy paper plates.

Eat out with the kids.

Some of these may just be crazy but it is something to think about. What is reinforcing to this behavior and what is not?

I'm not telling you what to do as I couldn't solve it any better. I don't think my H has emptied the dishwasher and he doesn't want to do it. He will clean the cat box, but that is something he is willing to do and it isn't a point of argument for us.  

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex, I'm not trying to argue with you either. Looking at a set of behaviors and what to do about them may not work on everyone, but if they work in many situations, then it is possibly worth it to try.

This is not something that I am trying to do TO somebody. This is something that I am trying to do for ME. Through all of this, I want to try to keep the focus on ME. I know my tendencies. I have a tendency to intellectualize things and get too abstract. I am trying to bring this down to a more practical level that I can use on a day to day basis. My goal is to try to find ways to create a more peaceful house. I have been trying to identify the factors that create situations that are not peaceful.

Our T went into the difference between being a Caretaker and being caring. It may look the same from the outside. It is the intention and the situation. I can cook dinner because I love taking care of my family. I can also cook dinner because if I don't, my H gets agitated and rages and I cook dinner to keep him from raging. The difference is inside of me- am I cooking from a place of love, or resentment- because when I cooked to keep him from raging, I was feeling a lot of resentment.

The only way that I am going to know what my motivations are is to look at the individual behaviors and my motivations. It is a process. And I know enough about myself to know that I can be a real snit at times. I went through a period where if I knew something would irritate my husband, I would do it because I was trying to hurt him as much as he hurt me. Was it healthy? Nope. But, I own that I did it and part of looking at the individual behaviors is looking at my contribution to things without worrying about whether or not it is caretaking, codependent, or something else. I am trying to get super duper practical so that I don't venture into over analyzing and over intellectualizing. Those things have kept me spinning my wheels for a long time.

[vortex of confusion]

... .that is something he is willing to do and it isn't a point of argument for us.  

In my ideal little world, I would like to identify the things that he is willing and able to do without much or any prodding from me. I want things to be as win-win as possible.

I am trying to look at what we argue about and determine if it is something that is really worth arguing over. And, I am trying to do a bit of a self check and do some personal inventory. Why am I insisting that he empty the dishwasher? Is it because I hate doing it? Is it because I want him to be responsible for something? Is there something else that he can do to contribute that isn't going to be as problematic?

I don't want to make all of these decisions on my own. I want to identify the various things so that I can figure out how to bring them up with him so that we can try to negotiate or re-negotiate things. My husband and I are pretty good about talking in a civil manner these days. I feel like I have made a lot of progress and I want to keep that momentum going.

[sweetheart]

Hi vortex,

Do you mean things like housework, childcare, finances, etc?

If you do I wonder if something as simple as a list of areas/issues that are important to you and those that are not. You could post it here and work through with input from others.

You've been with your h a long time so you know his strengths and weaknesses, what can he realistically follow through on that helps your home life become smoother running. ( Try and be really really realistic about this  ) What can you let go off and accept that you will do. What areas are non-negotiable if any? What areas really matter to you?

I accept that my life is easier if I do most of the household/childcare things, I do not see this as doing things my h is not doing. Sometimes if I have a lot on and am out for large parts of a day, I will leave my h a list of things that need doing. I have come to accept that it is unlikely that he will do everything on the list, but with the list as a prompt he will do something. If I were to just remind him verbally, he would forget and nothing would get done. In the past with no list as a prompt and nothing done I would feel annoyed and would experience resentment. So I found a way around this that works for me.

For me I have chosen to stay with someone who has a diagnosed mental illness, and this means that in our marriage because of the limitations that this places on many areas of my h's overall functioning, there is not equality in our relationship. Even if a SO is not diagnosed, you as their partner, if you've been with them long enough will have a good idea of what they are capable of, both practically and emotionally. Maybe use that as a starting point to see if you can let go of things that to continue hold on to only cause more upset for you.

[123Phoebe]

I don't want to make all of these decisions on my own. I want to identify the various things so that I can figure out how to bring them up with him so that we can try to negotiate or re-negotiate things. My husband and I are pretty good about talking in a civil manner these days. I feel like I have made a lot of progress and I want to keep that momentum going.

Hi Vortex!  I am so happy to hear that things are improving somewhat

Something that really worked for me, though I realize it might not for everyone, was to imagine that my partner was no longer in my life.  What would my life be like without him in it?  What kinds of things would I have to do to keep my life running smoothly, peacefully while even thriving somewhat?... .

I'd have to get up and go to work, pay my bills, take care of pets, clean the house, do the yard work, see friends, cook... .etc etc etc... .

Those are all things I can do, do do and would have to do whether I have an SO or not.

When SO helps or contributes in certain ways, it's icing on the cake and I am appreciative!  I don't "praise" him for helping, I thank him.  He knows I have a lot on my plate, not because I tell him he doesn't realize it, but because he can see that I do.

What are some things that you really do appreciate about your husband?  Let's get it started from a positive angle and build up and out from there... .

[vortex of confusion]

Hi vortex,

Do you mean things like housework, childcare, finances, etc?

If you do I wonder if something as simple as a list of areas/issues that are important to you and those that are not.

In all honesty, that is what I am trying to figure out. I think my two biggest issues are lack of follow through and lack of consideration of me and my feelings on his part. I have been taking care of the housework, childcare, and finances on my own for years. I am pretty used to taking whatever I get in those areas. Quite frankly, I would rather take care of some of those areas because I know he has a difficult time keeping up with them.

I am trying to think of an example and the one that comes to mind is something that happened this morning. I fell asleep on the floor in the kids room last night at some point. It is common for me to do that. In the past, I would ask him to wake me up if he got up to go to the bathroom. A lot of times, I would go back to our room on my own. I told him that I wanted to sleep with him and be with him. Anyway, he wouldn't wake me up. Well, he would wake me up as he was leaving for work. Fast forward to now, if I don't sleep in the kids' room, I sleep on the couch. This morning, he wakes me up and says, "I thought you might be more comfortable on the couch." The other day, I asked him to stop waking me up because I have a hard time going back to sleep. Anyway, I come out to the living room thinking that maybe he and I can spend some time together. Nope, I get up and he is on his computer game. By this time, I am angry. I am so unbelievably angry because he woke me up from a sound sleep to get me to move. He came up with some BS excuse that, "But I thought you wanted me to wake you up." I got my wits about me and got to a place where I could discuss it with him peacefully. He goes on and on about feeling like a failure and not being able to do anything right. I told him, "If you had woken me up and said that you were lonely and wanted me in the living room, I wouldn't have been upset. But, here I get woken up from a sound sleep only to come out to you playing your game and completely ignoring me. I have stated repeatedly that the only reason that I have ever asked you to wake me up was so that we could spend time together."

One of the potential solutions to this is for me to set an alarm or wake myself up. I used to do that. I remember getting the kids to bed and forcing myself to stay awake so I could go be with him in the bedroom and have adult time together. When I would go to cuddle with him, he would roll over and put his back to me. Sometimes, I would try to crawl in bed with him and he would be so sprawled over the bed that I couldn't get in or couldn't get any covers. I would wake him up so we could be physical and he would grump at me and turn away or we would do our thing, he would clean up immediately, and then turn his back to me and fall asleep.

You've been with your h a long time so you know his strengths and weaknesses, what can he realistically follow through on that helps your home life become smoother running. ( Try and be really really realistic about this  ) What can you let go off and accept that you will do. What areas are non-negotiable if any? What areas really matter to you?

In all honesty, I don't feel like I can adequately list his strengths and weaknesses due to his inconsistency. The one thing that I value most is PEACE! I want a peaceful home.

[sweetheart]

"Something that really worked for me, though I realize it might not for everyone, was to imagine that my partner was no longer in my life.  What would my life be like without him in it?  What kinds of things would I have to do to keep my life running smoothly, peacefully while even thriving somewhat?... .

I'd have to get up and go to work, pay my bills, take care of pets, clean the house, do the yard work, see friends, cook... .etc etc etc... .

Those are all things I can do, do do and would have to do whether I have an SO or not."

Phoebe I really like the way you have expressed this, it uncomplicates the issues and reframes the focus on ourselves and the realities of living a life with or without a SO. I can identify with this way of living as an informed choice that I made for myself and my family since coming to these boards. It took me a while to get there though as I had a lot of caretaking issues I wanted to let go of that eventually resulted in me being less enmeshed with my husbands chaos and thus allowing his chaos to become more visible to those that needed to see it.( mental health services, his P etc )

It is also, and I suspect always will be a work in progress that has a fluidity to it that changes as mine and my families needs change.

[vortex of confusion]

Something that really worked for me, though I realize it might not for everyone, was to imagine that my partner was no longer in my life.  What would my life be like without him in it?  What kinds of things would I have to do to keep my life running smoothly, peacefully while even thriving somewhat?... .

I have actually taken that approach at different times and, in all honesty, it created a lot of resentment in me because I found myself thinking, "If I am going to live like he isn't here, then by golly, I wish he would leave." And, I found that I was turning it into, "You can't seem to do this stuff now. What did you do when you lived alone as a bachelor before we got married?

Those are all things I can do, do do and would have to do whether I have an SO or not.

When SO helps or contributes in certain ways, it's icing on the cake and I am appreciative!  I don't "praise" him for helping, I thank him.  He knows I have a lot on my plate, not because I tell him he doesn't realize it, but because he can see that I do.

My SO wants praise and will seek it out. I can tell him "thank you" and he won't let it go. He will continue to bring it up until I have praised him and thanked him to his satisfaction. He doesn't seem to see what I do. We had a conversation about that topic this morning. I don't remember the entire conversation because it was a bit all over the place. What I was trying to get at is the fact that he doesn't thank me for all of the things that I do yet he expects me to do all of the things that I do without any kind of recognition or appreciation. If he does anything, he makes a big deal out of how much HE helped ME as though I should be falling all over myself because he remembered to do something.

What are some things that you really do appreciate about your husband?  Let's get it started from a positive angle and build up and out from there... .

Thank you for asking this question. I feel like I have backed myself into a bit of a corner and can't come up with too much about him that I appreciate about him. I have days where I struggle with feeling like he is an incompetent boob that gets in the way more than he helps. (I know that isn't a nice thing to say but that is me being brutally honest about my feelings.)

What do I appreciate about him?

-I appreciate that he goes to work every day and is gainfully employed.

-I appreciate that he doesn't physically abuse me.

-I appreciate that he takes the cars in to get them inspected and have the oil changed.

Hmmm. . .That is all I can come up with at the moment.

[sweetheart]

Vortex an alarm clock is a great solution, and it might be a useful analogy for other areas as well. The alarm clock relies on you taking the initiative to spend time with your h if you want to. It keeps it simple and uncomplicated and keeps out the potential contrariness of your h and stops you being triggered.

Ok so you can't identify strengths and weaknesses, what are your list of absolute go to things that would really help your home life become more peaceful. What does a peaceful house look like to you today ( remember you can change this it's not set in stone )? What other 'alarmclock' solutions could you use?

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex an alarm clock is a great solution, and it might be a useful analogy for other areas as well. The alarm clock relies on you taking the initiative to spend time with your h if you want to. It keeps it simple and uncomplicated and keeps out the potential contrariness of your h and stops you being triggered.

I have taken most of the initiative when it comes to spending time with my husband. I am the one that gets babysitters. I am the one that used to get up and go to him in the middle of the night. Me taking the initiative only works if he doesn't reject me and my advances. I have put the kids to bed early so we could have time for us. I have a huge list of examples of how I have taken the initiative when it comes to spending time with him. What I can't change is the fact that his behaviors clearly indicate that he doesn't want to spend time with me. His behaviors indicate that other things are more important than spending time with me.

Ok so you can't identify strengths and weaknesses, what are your list of absolute go to things that would really help your home life become more peaceful. What does a peaceful house look like to you today ( remember you can change this it's not set in stone )? What other 'alarmclock' solutions could you use?

Hmmmm. . .today, I am thinking a peaceful house is one where there isn't a lot of conflict or, if there is conflict, it is resolved without raised voices or name calling. I think a peaceful house is one where we, as a family, periodically take time to connect in various ways. I also want to get to a place where I am at peace with the decision to stay for now.

I am going to give an example that happened last night. I was going to go out on the porch for a bit and asked my husband if he would like to join me. He said sure. Not long after he said yes, our oldest daughter said she wanted to come too. He responded by saying, "If she goes outside, then I am not going." There was a little back and forth, not fighting, but the end result was that he didn't come outside with me because our daughter came out. Our daughter felt really rejected and was upset because she would have liked to have a few minutes with her parents without her sisters butting in. To my daughter and I, it seemed like he didn't want to come out because he didn't want to share my attention. He wanted me all to himself. My daughter even said something to the effect of, "Mom, he is an adult. Why can't he share you? He acts like such a little kid sometimes." (In my head, I am thinking, I can't friggin' believe this. He can share me with another man but he can't share me with his daughter.)

[Notwendy]

I really appreciate the suggestions on this thread. The alarm clock is a great idea since it really is self care in a way- taking care of your need to be awake at a certain time.

As to the question of needing to behave as if he wasn't there in terms of tasks, then why be in the relationship- perhaps there are other qualities that you can appreciate. If my H were to evaluate our marriage in terms of finances, then he could live quite well without my contribution, but besides finances, I believe I bring other qualities to the relationship and do other jobs in the home that are not paid, but he'd have to pay someone to do them.

I am also grateful that my H has a job that he is good at and is willing to support us. He is good to the kids. I believe they benefit from having a father in their lives. We share much in the way of companionship and values. I think, over all, we are far better together than apart, even if there are issues.

What did he do before he married me? I did know him before that. The apartment he shared with his room mate in college was a mess. His room was neat but his room mate was messier than he was and neither of them had interest in using or cleaning the kitchen. Neither of them wanted to cook or do dishes so would drive though fast food if they got hungry. So, he did survive without me, but not to my housekeeping standards and  not to the cleanliness and nutrition standards I would want to raise kids in. Naturally, I would take over the kitchen if I wanted the job to be done the way I would do it. I only wish he wouldn't have rages if I asked him to help once in a while, but he did other things.

I think we both made each other's lives better, and in some ways harder, but overall, even if not all things are equal, and there is room for improvement, I can appreciate what he brings to our lives together.

[Notwendy]

Vortex, the kids figure it out. I "knew" by adolescence that in ways, I was older than my mother emotionally. The reason he isn't good at sharing you with your D, is that he probably wants what he wants at the moment. As to another man, I have no idea. That would not work in our marriage. However, he may feel that sharing you allows him the same freedom, but there isn't that benefit by sharing you with the children.

[sweetheart]

Vortex what might help next time in keeping the peace is if you want a little bit of planned quality alone time with your h, let your children know this as part of that plan ( alarm clock ). Tell them that you and their dad do not want disturbing for x amount of time. Tell them where you'll be etc, set it up. And off you go.

It's perfectly reasonable to expect children to understand and accept as part of family life that their parents take alone time together whenever this is.

It might be that your h doesn't take you up on your offer, but if he does then you know that nothing will interrupt you and no feelings will be hurt.

And vortex if you do keep trying only to keep getting rejected by your h, with this then leading to further conflict, if it were me I would stop. For me this is an emotionally abusive and destructive dynamic that perpetuates conflict and disempowers you.

There is only so much you can do and from the posts I have read of yours, you are doing a whole lot.

Reframe your focus if you need to so that you and your children are the priority until you are ready to leave.

[vortex of confusion]

As to the question of needing to behave as if he wasn't there in terms of tasks, then why be in the relationship- perhaps there are other qualities that you can appreciate. If my H were to evaluate our marriage in terms of finances, then he could live quite well without my contribution, but besides finances, I believe I bring other qualities to the relationship and do other jobs in the home that are not paid, but he'd have to pay someone to do them.

In another thread, the question of why be in the relationship came up and Form Flier said he would be interested in hearing my husband's response. I pose the hypothetical question of: "What is the point of being in a relationship if you can't consistently rely on your partner?"

My husband's response was that he didn't know. I pushed my husband a little bit on the issue this morning and he said something along the lines of "There really isn't any point to being in a relationship if you can't rely on your partner." What I was trying to do was help my husband see my side of things.  I proceeded to ask him what he thinks he brings to the relationship. He couldn't give me an answer. After thinking about it, he said something like, "I give you foot rubs." It was really sad because I could tell that some of it was sinking in a bit.

He could list all sorts of things that I do and bring to the relationship. At one point last night, he was talking about his 12 step program and his higher power. At one point he said that I was his higher power.   I tried to point out today that his expectations of me are way too high.

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex what might help next time in keeping the peace is if you want a little bit of planned quality alone time with your h, let your children know this as part of that plan ( alarm clock ). Tell them that you and their dad do not want disturbing for x amount of time. Tell them where you'll be etc, set it up. And off you go.

It's perfectly reasonable to expect children to understand and accept as part of family life that their parents take alone time together whenever this is.

It might be that your h doesn't take you up on your offer, but if he does then you know that nothing will interrupt you and no feelings will be hurt.

I have to chuckle at this a bit because the kids aren't the problem. Well, there was a period of time where the kids didn't want us to be alone because they were afraid that we would fight. It isn't that way any more. That is one positive change that has happened.

And vortex if you do keep trying only to keep getting rejected by your h, with this then leading to further conflict, if it were me I would stop. For me this is an emotionally abusive and destructive dynamic that perpetuates conflict and disempowers you.

I have stopped. I won't sleep in the same bed as him. I have put a stop to our physical relationship. Kisses are now pecks on the cheek. I won't cuddle with him. Last night, he asked if we could cuddle and I told him no. I really want to focus on the friendship aspect of things and ways to create some kind of peace within myself and within the home.

There is only so much you can do and from the posts I have read of yours, you are doing a whole lot.

Reframe your focus if you need to so that you and your children are the priority until you are ready to leave.

My children are my focus and that is why the emphasis is on peace rather than rebuilding the relationship or anything like that. In my mind, the relationship between my husband and I is pretty much dead but that doesn't mean that I am going to be a jerk. In one of our discussions, he told me that my actions still show him that I love and care for him. I want to set a good example for my girls and I want them to know that I gave it my all.

[Notwendy]

 

last night, he was talking about his 12 step program and his higher power. At one point he said that I was his higher power.   I tried to point out today that his expectations of me are way too high.

LOL run with this one. Hand him a list of 10 chores "These are my 10 Commandments!"

Not really, but sometimes seeing humor in situations helps me cope.

[MissyM]

At one point he said that I was his higher power.  shocked

Yikes!  That is very unhealthy.  Is your BPDh aware that this is very unhealthy?  It sounds like you have made a lot of strides since you have been on this board.   

It sounds like you are wanting to figure out how to detach and concentrate on your reactions and choices.  IMHO, that is where the real growth occurs.  I still get sidelined sometimes but get back on track faster and faster.  I have accountability partners from twelve step groups that help me get back on track.  My question these days is "What is my part in this?"  As long as I can stop and reframe, my life goes a lot smoother.  It isn't going perfectly but has really improved.

[sweetheart]

Then vortex what phoebe suggested really might work for you in an emotional way. I can hear clearly and have read how hard you have tried for your marriage.

If your staying for practical reasons, children, money etc then starting to live your life as an emotionally separate individual means that it is no longer necessary to give your h explanations around your issues other than in trying to establish an amicable living space.

If you can continue to emotionally detach and physically be separate from your h this might naturally lead to a more peaceful home. However if you are really done with your marriage, try not to blur boundaries with your h by agreeing to spending 'time' together. Mixed messages like this will lead to increased conflict for you both.

Living in a way that expects absolutely nothing further from him will you keep disengaged. Allow him to live his life as he chooses, remember for you your marriage is over. Talk only about the practicalities of your lives together, bills, children, housekeeping, work. If this is causing conflict too shut down communication here as well. Keep communication limited to safe, no conflict areas, this might help keep things more peaceful for you all.

Can you live like this ?

[vortex of confusion]

At one point he said that I was his higher power.  shocked

Yikes!  That is very unhealthy.  Is your BPDh aware that this is very unhealthy?  It sounds like you have made a lot of strides since you have been on this board.   

I don't think he sees how unhealthy it is for him to put me on a pedestal like that. I tried to explain that he is placing way too much expectations on me. He back pedaled a little bit and tried to reframe it as me and the kids give him purpose. I don't want to be his purpose. I don't want to be his higher power.

It sounds like you are wanting to figure out how to detach and concentrate on your reactions and choices.  IMHO, that is where the real growth occurs.  I still get sidelined sometimes but get back on track faster and faster.  I have accountability partners from twelve step groups that help me get back on track.  My question these days is "What is my part in this?"  As long as I can stop and reframe, my life goes a lot smoother.  It isn't going perfectly but has really improved.

Yes, that is exactly what I am trying to do and it isn't easy. The "What is my part in this?" is the toughest question for me to answer because he does have me on such a high pedestal. It is really easy for me to fall back into a place where I am blaming him. Heck, he makes it really easy for me to blame him because of his tendency to be say stuff like, "This is all my fault. I have been a horrible husband, blah, blah, blah."

My part in this is that I have allowed this dynamic to continue for so long. I should have spoken up a whole lot sooner and I should have pushed through a lot of the discomfort that comes from trying to speak and live my truth.

[Notwendy]

Being on a pedestal isn't healthy, but it is good to know he values you.

Yes, I agree with speaking your truth. I need to work on that too.

[MissyM]

I should have pushed through a lot of the discomfort that comes from trying to speak and live my truth

.

Yep, me too.  Part of the problem is that I wasn't clear on my truth.  When I am clear on it, then I don't let someone else muddle my truth and I don't overly adapt to someone else's needs to the point that I am abandoning my own.  I think navigating the kids and housework is a minefield sometime.  My dBPDh said that I didn't ask him for help but resented him for not helping, there was some truth to that because I gave up asking.  I then started asking again but would get really triggered when he wouldn't do it or do it in a unhelpful/inefficient way.  I have gotten better at asking and being able to let go of the emotion involved.   If it is pick the kids up from activities, I say can you pick up (child 1)  at (location) at 7 o'clock and drive him to pick up a snack at (store).  Then bring him home by 8 o'clock.   I felt like this was controlling but my dBPDh has asked that I be very specific because this works for him.  Have you expressed to your dBPDh that you would like more help and what are some ways that the two of you could work this out, so that you feel less overwhelmed and he doesn't feel ________ (whatever he is feeling, hounded, picked on, less than, etc.)?

[vortex of confusion]

Then vortex what phoebe suggested really might work for you in an emotional way. I can hear clearly and have read how hard you have tried for your marriage.

If your staying for practical reasons, children, money etc then starting to live your life as an emotionally separate individual means that it is no longer necessary to give your h explanations around your issues other than in trying to establish an amicable living space.

I feel like living as though he wasn't here would work IF his presence didn't create conflict. Sure, I do all of those things on my own. It is a bit of a push/pull situation. Recently, the dryer broke and I asked my husband to look at it. He figured out how to fix it. I was very grateful to him for that. Later, he said said that he was really glad that I let him fix it. He said he knew that I could have probably figured it out on my own if I had to. He said it made him feel more like a man.

If you can continue to emotionally detach and physically be separate from your h this might naturally lead to a more peaceful home. However if you are really done with your marriage, try not to blur boundaries with your h by agreeing to spending 'time' together. Mixed messages like this will lead to increased conflict for you both.

My husband and I both agree that we want to work on the friendship side of things. Our joint focus, at the moment, seems to be that of friends and coparents. We also both agree that there are issues that we want to discuss and work through so that we can retain the friendship because no matter what happens we are tied together for life because of our 4 kids. And, we have discussed the mixed messages that we are both sending each other. The actual fate of our marriage in the long term is very uncertain and we are both trying to find ways to be okay with that.

Living in a way that expects absolutely nothing further from him will you keep disengaged. Allow him to live his life as he chooses, remember for you your marriage is over. Talk only about the practicalities of your lives together, bills, children, housekeeping, work. If this is causing conflict too shut down communication here as well. Keep communication limited to safe, no conflict areas, this might help keep things more peaceful for you all.

Can you live like this ?

I am trying to figure out whether or not I can live like you are suggesting. What prompted me to think about this is the fact that my husband has recently started posting ads looking for a female email friend. If the marriage is over, then I have no say in this. Even if the marriage isn't over, I don't know that I should say much about this. I am trying to focus on whether or not his email friends has any impact on me and the kids. In the past, when he did this, he checked out even further and was a horrible jerk to me and the kids.

[vortex of confusion]

Being on a pedestal isn't healthy, but it is good to know he values you.

Yes, I agree with speaking your truth. I need to work on that too.

Actually, it doesn't feel like he values me. He takes a lot of the things that I do for granted. If he valued me as a human being, he would be able to see how much I do and he would not take so much for granted. If he values me, he values me as an object.

[vortex of confusion]

Have you expressed to your dBPDh that you would like more help and what are some ways that the two of you could work this out, so that you feel less overwhelmed and he doesn't feel ________ (whatever he is feeling, hounded, picked on, less than, etc.)?

Yes, I have asked him pretty directly for help.

I do feel that I have made a little progress in communicating with him without making him feel attacked. His typical reaction to most of my requests are that I am personally attacking him. For a while, I backed off asking him for things because of how he reacted. I am working on trying to find better ways to make requests in such a way that he doesn't feel as overwhelmed or inadequate.

[MissyM]

R

ecently, the dryer broke and I asked my husband to look at it. He figured out how to fix it. I was very grateful to him for that. Later, he said said that he was really glad that I let him fix it. He said he knew that I could have probably figured it out on my own if I had to. He said it made him feel more like a man.

This sounds like a huge change in the way of handling things!  So, maybe there are more ways that the 2 of you can build on this?  I know that recently my dBPDh and I have been working more in partnership.  As we have both seen that this is having huge benefits, it makes it easier and easier to build upon. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[vortex of confusion]

This sounds like a huge change in the way of handling things!  So, maybe there are more ways that the 2 of you can build on this?  I know that recently my dBPDh and I have been working more in partnership.  As we have both seen that this is having huge benefits, it makes it easier and easier to build upon. 

In the last year or so, I have been trying to find more opportunities for him to fix things or do things that I know will make him feel better about himself. I know that his self esteem is improving because he took the initiative to watch the videos and figure out how to do it. There have been times in the past when he would have panicked over something like that. One thing that I know about my husband is that he is a very fragile person. I try to find ways to set him up for success. But, a lot of that didn't work because of where HE was at.

Speaking of partnership, we had a really great conversation about partnerships this morning. I was trying to point out that I felt like he wasn't taking ownership of the house, the kids, etc. because his attitude is that whatever he does is done because he is helping me. Taking out the trash is helping me. Other little things that he does are being done to help me. I think one of the examples that I used was with the kids. When he does stuff like put the kids to bed, he phrases it as helping me with the kids. I tried to point out that him doing those things isn't helping ME but is part of being a dad. It is like he uses me as a reference point for everything. I want that to stop because it makes me feel more like his parent than a partner or friend.

[MissyM]

When he does stuff like put the kids to bed, he phrases it as helping me with the kids. I tried to point out that him doing those things isn't helping ME but is part of being a dad. It is like he uses me as a reference point for everything. I want that to stop because it makes me feel more like his parent than a partner or friend.

That is a common theme among spouses of SAs, not sure about BPDs.  The goal in recovery is to move more toward equal partnership.  For some reasons most SAs are checked out as Dads (not to be sexist I do know of female SAs) but aren't even aware of it.  This has gotten so much better in recovery, my dBPDh wants to be a better Dad (although he has had to let go of the illusion that he was already a good Dad).  Hopefully, over the next year this will begin to shift with your BPDh.

[vortex of confusion]

That is a common theme among spouses of SAs, not sure about BPDs.  The goal in recovery is to move more toward equal partnership.  For some reasons most SAs are checked out as Dads (not to be sexist I do know of female SAs) but aren't even aware of it.  This has gotten so much better in recovery, my dBPDh wants to be a better Dad (although he has had to let go of the illusion that he was already a good Dad).  Hopefully, over the next year this will begin to shift with your BPDh.

Thank you so much for this MissyM!

That describes my husband to a T. He has had this illusion that he is some kind of great dad but that is not what the reality was. I have tried to validate him and remind him that he WAS a great dad when the oldest two were younger. The oldest comments that she wishes dad would go back to being the goofy/fun dad that she had when she was little. I have tried to remind him of how he was when the oldest two girls were younger. I have used that as "proof" that he has it in him to be a good dad, he just isn't back to that place yet.

Our youngest (6) hardly knows her dad and has rejected him for most of her life because of how he has been. I can see things slowly changing as the youngest will actually ask for him occasionally. And, I go back to work next week and one of the girls said that she was actually looking forward to me going back to work because they get to ride with me to go meet dad. Last year at this time, I would have called you a liar if you had told me that I would have another job, my own bank account, and the kids would actually be looking forward to me going to work.

[MissyM]

Last year at this time, I would have called you a liar if you had told me that I would have another job, my own bank account, and the kids would actually be looking forward to me going to work.

Really amazing changes, VC!  I have to say I am impressed with how quickly you seem to have caught onto making changes.  I think I was a big more stubborn.

[vortex of confusion]

Really amazing changes, VC!  I have to say I am impressed with how quickly you seem to have caught onto making changes.  I think I was a big more stubborn.

I have been trying to make changes for years but didn't have enough information. I had been doing all of the things that were supposed to work with a "normal" person but failed miserably. I assumed that I had to be the problem and that I just wasn't getting it right.

Finding this site put a lot of the puzzle pieces together for me.

[Notwendy]

Vortex - congratulations on the job

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex - congratulations on the job

Thank you Notwendy!

I will have my one year anniversary at this job next month. It took me about 6 months of serious looking before I found this job. I have another part time job but it is online and doesn't get me out of the house and it doesn't get me the kind of experience that I need in my profession.

[123Phoebe]

For me, what I am wanting to do is untangle the mess and look at my options of how I want to or should respond in a given situation:

For example, I have identified my husband's lack of follow through as an issue that really bothers me and it does have an impact on me. I am trying to break things down into smaller, more manageable chunks so that I deal with things one at a time and make deliberate choices. I can look at emptying the dishwasher as a separate issue from changing the cat boxes. A different approach can be taken in each situation because of the level of impact it has on me.

In either of those situations, I can:

1. Keep doing what I have done in the past, which is to moan and grumble and do it myself.

2. Look at the direct impact it has on me and identify how much it does or doesn't impact me. In the case of emptying the dishwasher, it only becomes an issue to me IF I need it to be empty because I have more dishes to do. In the case of the cat box, if he doesn't change them, I have to put up with the odor, but I know that I can spray disinfectant or do other things that drown it out. As a result, I can be more patient with him on one issue.

3. I can nag and gripe about it and ride his butt until he does it.

4. Push for a system where there are direct rewards/consequences for him following through on various things around the house.

Something just sprang out at me.  First, I can't recall my dad ever doing a dish.  I do remember my sister and I having certain chores; for example, we'd alternate putting dishes away, loading up the dishwasher.  I've cleaned my share of cat boxes, bathrooms, dusting, laundry etc... .It was part of family life.

Could some of these issues you're having (with your husband) be delegated to your children? 

It's just that what you're describing sounds like a Mom complaining about her lazy kids, not a wife speaking about her husband.

I feel like living as though he wasn't here would work IF his presence didn't create conflict. Sure, I do all of those things on my own. It is a bit of a push/pull situation. Recently, the dryer broke and I asked my husband to look at it. He figured out how to fix it. I was very grateful to him for that. Later, he said said that he was really glad that I let him fix it. He said he knew that I could have probably figured it out on my own if I had to. He said it made him feel more like a man.

It has me curious... .  Could your husband feel that he's not respected as a man?

[vortex of confusion]

It's just that what you're describing sounds like a Mom complaining about her lazy kids, not a wife speaking about her husband.

You are right. Part of it is that he acts like a lazy kid instead of a husband.

My dad never did a dish either. Heck, my dad never did any housework. My mom and us kids tended to wait on my dad (and later on my brother). There were very clearly defined roles in my house growing up. My mother and I have had this conversation and she has used the fact that my husband does some stuff around the house as a way to invalidate my concerns.

If I want to look at what my dad did when I was a kid, I can say that my dad was a pretty awesome dad. He may not have done any housework but he would spend time with us kids. I was never ever afraid of being with my dad as a kid. I felt safer with my dad than I felt with pretty much anyone. My kids don't have that. They ask me stuff like, "Why does dad spend so much time on his computer games?" or "Why does dad act like a kid instead of a parent?" When I was a kid, dad would take us kids places. My dad rarely ever went anywhere without a kid or two (usually me and my brother). So, I have a really difficult time understanding how a dad acts like he doesn't want anything to do with his kids. Talking about housework, when I was a kid, my dad would do stuff with us to get us out of mom's hair. My husband doesn't do that. I don't get a moments peace some days.

The relationship between my husband and I have definitely become parentefied (is that word?).

It has me curious... .  Could your husband feel that he's not respected as a man?

I am certain that he doesn't feel like he is respected as a man. It is really difficult to respect somebody as a man when his behavior is that of an insolent child.

I have spent years trying to build him up and make him feel manly.

And, to be perfectly honest, I don't respect him as a man. He doesn't behave like any of the men I know behave. I can't rely on him to do "manly" work because he usually doesn't feel well. Or, he doesn't know how to do it. He sucks as a dad. He sucks as a husband. The only thing that he does well is go to work and play his computer games.

I tried to talk to him about helping more with the kids so I can get more sleep. He started complaining about HIS lack of sleep. He doesn't help with the night time parenting. He stays up and play his computer games until midnight even after I remind him of the time.