Help Me Set Boundaries for myself and my children

[Livestrong97]

I have definitely enabled my uBPDh by not setting boundaries when he first began raging (I was 7 mos pregnant with twins).  The raging continued for years and once I'd had enough, that became my first real boundary because he feared I would leave him.  The raging and anger improved, or I think I would have left.  It will always be there somewhat we all know, because he is BPD. 

My question today, is for some guidance and suggestions for setting boundaries when my teens (15, 15, 13) are the target of an explosive episode.  Things I can do and things I can help them do when this happens next time. 

I stay quiet when he first explodes but when he keeps on and on, I have to show my children that it is wrong and step in and say "that's enough."  As soon as I do, I become the next victim and it worsens.  He points, blames, curses, gets louder, etc toward me and we end up in a cyclical pattern where I can't stand him for weeks.  He of course acts fine as soon as he's ready, and over time his normal self gets the best of me and I finally give in, we reconcile and he has gotten away with yet another outburst that damages my feelings for him.  Please offer some good tactics to try next time this happens.  I can't tell my children he is BPD and I can't tell them to set thier own boundaries and walk away because he is their father.  I tell them later he was wrong for saying hurtful things, but then I feel I'm going against him and that isn't good for the kids to see either.  I need to stay in the relationship for now. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MissyM]

I can't tell my children he is BPD and I can't tell them to set thier own boundaries and walk away because he is their father. 

Why not?  My children are in therapy and the therapist doesn't use the words BPD but talks about struggles their father has.  She also helps them learn to set boundaries.  I am setting boundaries when they occur with my dBPDh and the kids but trying not to do it in an overly aggressive way.

[vortex of confusion]

My question today, is for some guidance and suggestions for setting boundaries when my teens (15, 15, 13) are the target of an explosive episode.  Things I can do and things I can help them do when this happens next time.

My first question is: When do these outbursts usually happen? Are you usually there? Do they happen when you are not at home and he is alone with the kids?

If you are present and he starts that, would it be possible/safe to say something simple like, "Come on kids, let's go to <another room, a drive, outside, etc.>" And then proceed to remove yourself and your kids from the situation. Don't stand there and argue with him. Walk away. If you tell him, ENOUGH and he turns it on you, then you can walk away. But, before doing this, you need to assess whether or not you think he will turn physically violent.

Do you think he would physically hurt the kids if they walked away from him or refused to stand there and listen to him yell and scream? It is really important to honestly assess the danger of the situation.

[Livestrong97]

Thank you for responding Vortex and Missy. 

Vortex, sometimes I'm present and other times I'm not.  It could be anything that sets him off.  Last week my son accidentally knocked a hanging picture and my uBPDh freaked on him, yelling at the top of his lungs to pay attention and that he would have to repair the wall, patch it, sand it, tries to keep a nice house and everyone is against him.  I understand someone getting upset but he kept on and on.  My son felt awful and angry as did the rest of us.  I finally said "that's enough" and he turns on me.  He doesn't get violent just verbally abusive and curses.  The children can hear him talking filth to me.  I walk away but he starts again as soon as he sees me. 

Missy, I guess you're right, I don't have to say it's BPD (as much as I want to).  I do talk to them after the fact when we are alone, saying he can't control his temper.  But, how do I tell them to walk away?   How do I tell a child to walk away when they are being scolded by a parent? If they did it on their own it seems like disrespect and if I tell them to walk away during the argument, my husband accuses me of undermining him.  I know because I've been doing that for years and it causes this cyclical caous time and time again. 

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex, sometimes I'm present and other times I'm not.  It could be anything that sets him off.  Last week my son accidentally knocked a hanging picture and my uBPDh freaked on him, yelling at the top of his lungs to pay attention and that he would have to repair the wall, patch it, sand it, tries to keep a nice house and everyone is against him.  I understand someone getting upset but he kept on and on.  My son felt awful and angry as did the rest of us.  I finally said "that's enough" and he turns on me.  He doesn't get violent just verbally abusive and curses.  The children can hear him talking filth to me.  I walk away but he starts again as soon as he sees me. 

Ah, I see. I have had the same experience where the thing is upset about is totally reasonable but the reaction is so unbelievably over the top. Have you tried interrupting him with something other than "that's enough". I have interrupted my husband rather sternly and tried to validate him while telling him to knock it off. It is something along the lines of, "Hey, I know you are upset that the picture got knocked off the wall. I know that you are going to have to fix it. I really appreciate how much work you put into the house. Please stop yelling so that I can pick up the pieces." Or something like that. I have yelled back at my husband while validating him. I know that my husband isn't going to hurt me if I do something like that. He will likely stand down and knock it off. If some people tried that, they would get smacked or something.

[Livestrong97]

V, you are so right.  He has a right to be upset, but the reaction is insane and jaw dropping to the rest of us.  Thank you, your response is great, I will try it.  I think yes, if he's validated he may calm a bit. Thank you! 

[MissyM]

I interrupt my husband if he does something like that.  I am trying a newer tactic of, "it was a mistake and everyone makes mistakes.  Here, let's pick this up and we will all fix it".  The problem when something goes wrong is that my dBPDh easily hits upon his shame and lashes out.  His father treated him this way and he is apt to treat the kids this way.  He never had what we call in my family the "uh-oh" stage of childhood.  When kids fall, or knock things over when they are little we always said "uh-oh" in my family.  It is just a way to show it was a mistake and not some huge event.  In my dBPDh's household a mistake meant rage and punishment.  My dBPDh is well enough these days to know he does not want to pass that onto the kids.  Is there a way to talk about this issue with your BPDh when it is not a crisis and the kids aren't around?  As in, I really want for us to try and make an effort to be more understanding of each other and the kids.  I am going to make an effort to be more understanding and forgiving.  Does that sound like a good plan for the family?  Then when the issue comes up again, because it will, then intercede quickly and let everyone know it is ok and was just a mistake.

I don't know if this will work for you, my dBPDh is working on his issues so we are able to try and change the patterns of the way things work.  I used to step in and yell at him to cut that out but I now realize that was shaming him too.

[Livestrong97]

Missy, you are so insightful.  You are absolutely right.  I will take your advice and try what you suggest next time.  In the meantime I will try to have a conversation with him.  My husband did have a lot of childhood issues and it is also why everything always has to be perfect to him.  When it is not, it is a major touchpoint for him and can easily send him into emotional dysregulation. 

[formflier]

Missy, you are so insightful.  You are absolutely right.  I will take your advice and try what you suggest next time.  In the meantime I will try to have a conversation with him.  My husband did have a lot of childhood issues and it is also why everything always has to be perfect to him.  When it is not, it is a major touchpoint for him and can easily send him into emotional dysregulation. 

I think it will be helpful to break this into "theory"... .and "tactics".

You've been given some excellent "tactical" suggestions about how to deal with verbal abuse.  If they work... .great.  Either way... please let us know.

The "theory" is that nobody should listen to verbal abuse... .just like nobody should stick around for physical abuse... .

Why?  Because it is harmful... .for the abuser... .and the abused.

What do you think about this?

[Livestrong97]

Formflier,  Thanks. 

Well,  I fear the conversation.  It will turn into an argument.  I have to have it though.  I have to tell him that I will walk away and not engage and that the children are allowed to as well, when he goes into overload.  It won't change anything, but I have to say it and then do it.

,

I like what you say, that the verbal abuse (which he denies of course that it is such) is harmful to him and the abused.  It has ruined our relationship.  I'm just sick that I've allowed it to go on for so many years.  When there are children you have to weigh many things when considering staying vs. leaving.  A difficult con is that they have to hear him raging.  I figured I needed to always be around so they at least had me near. 

Is the only boundary we can set in this situation, to leave the room/house? 

[vortex of confusion]

Is the only boundary we can set in this situation, to leave the room/house? 

I am thinking that the boundary is "I won't tolerate being yelled at/verbally abused". How it is enforced could vary based on what works. You might think about brainstorming a list of possible things that you can do. For example, the list might look something like:

-leave the room/house

-interrupt him

-ask HIM to leave

-put your hands over your ears to signal to him that he is being too loud/you aren't going to listen

I am sure that there are others. The main thing is that yourself and your kids out of the line of fire. Carefully consider what the safest options are. And, there may be times when you are unable to remove yourself from a situation such as when riding in a car together. It is good to think about how you can enforce your boundary in those situations as well.

IF you can have a conversation with him when he is in a good place, you might even be able to brainstorm some ideas. I have also had a lot of luck lately with talking to my husband from a place of "help me understand". I wonder if approaching it as "Help me understand how yelling and calling me/the kids names is helping us to understand and listen to your frustrations."

[formflier]

And, there may be times when you are unable to remove yourself from a situation such as when riding in a car together. 

I have pulled over... .taken the keys... .and gone for a walk.  If you are not driving... .this is tougher.


If you can get "buy in" on a signal such as the hands on ears... .that would be great.

And it is worthy to try... .but if you try that conversation a few times and it is not productive... .pick something and do it.

Approach this as... ."when the conversation is too loud for me... ."  stay away from... "what should I do when you yell... "

For many pwBPD it is "normal" to do this in their families... .to have loud conversations... .I call it yelling.

[MissyM]

And it is worthy to try... .but if you try that conversation a few times and it is not productive... .pick something and do it.

Approach this as... ."when the conversation is too loud for me... ."  stay away from... "what should I do when you yell... "

For many pwBPD it is "normal" to do this in their families... .to have loud conversations... .I call it yelling.

Yes, I like that.  My dBPDh likes to yell, yet is extremely sensitive to it in anyone else.  The key is to decide what you are going to do and then be consistent with that.  He may escalate in the beginning to try and get you to revert to the old way