Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 29, 2024, 03:30:04 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Experts share their discoveries [video]
100
Caretaking - What is it all about?
Margalis Fjelstad, PhD
Blame - why we do it?
Brené Brown, PhD
Family dynamics matter.
Alan Fruzzetti, PhD
A perspective on BPD
Ivan Spielberg, PhD
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Do they keep you confused as a means of keeping you from leaving?  (Read 392 times)
Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« on: January 18, 2015, 07:53:39 AM »

I'm fairly new to the dynamics of BPD in a relationship as having a parent with it is different. Also my BPDmom and H are very different in their personalities and functioning. What brought me to this idea- and the characteristics fit- is that my H dysregulates, emotionally and rages and blames me for it. It would seem I was born in a FOG (raised since birth to be a caretaker)  because for years, I assumed the blame for them and went to great strides to appease him, much like I did with mom. However, recently, I've realized that his rages are rarely based on anything that actually happened. I struggled for years in this emotionally difficult relationship, not making the connection.

Why? Well because I had poor boundaries and also had little idea what was normal, and since this was so much better than my less able to control herself mom, I couldn't see the connection. Also, the reading I had done for mom assumed that BPD's were female. I considered NPD but it just didn't fit.

I'm reading books and this so helpful board, and things that confused me for years are starting to make sense in this framework of BPD thinking. One has been how impossible it is to get to the root of this, and also his feelings. Mom would tell us her feelings- all the time, but when my H is not dysregulating, he is the most controlled person with his words. Conversations that are the least bit personal are haltingly slow. Also, his general persona- which he works to maintain, is a competent and caring- not overly charming like someone with a NPD- but just a great person who everyone likes. I believe this is the part of him that is real, but also is designed to keep a negative image out. At times he has made self self depreciating remarks, but it was hard to take that seriously since he is so competent and well liked. There are other BPD traits as well- but not as relevant to this question.

I think he has some self awareness of his dysregulation and rages. When they are over, he pretends they never happened. Some of them, I think, he does forget, but I do think he remembers much of them. When he gets over them, he is back to nice again. My mom did this too. However, he has also made a lot of effort to not get into the problems in our relationship, refusing T and making up all kinds of reasons not to go. However, his main one is that he says ( not true but this is what he says) "All Marriage T does is make people divorce" He also has made a lot of effort to blame his rages on me and convince me that he doesn't have a problem. It was interesting when I started reading books about mom that he said " don't go painting me in the same brush". He has made it hard for me to take any trips away from home ( won't watch the kids) - once he couldn't get a hold of me for a few hours and he freaked out calling people I knew to see where I was. I was at a meeting with a female friend and we had gone shopping at a mall ( before cell phones). He often thinks that I am going to meet some imaginary man ( I have never cheated or given him reason to think this) . When he goes away, even for a short time, he calls me when he is gone, telling me he misses me, and when he comes home, he is over the top romantic, but he is not like this when he is home.

When he is not dysregulating, he is very rational, and is able to use his strong logic to talk me out of thinking that there is anything illogical about his thinking. He tells me I am the emotional one ( I just show it). He seems to have a very narrow emotional range- only when he is triggered does he reveal emotions- mainly anger. I now think he just controls his emotional side very well, better than mom did. I am also aware of the cultural differences between men and women and emotions, but he is even more controlled with showing emotions than other men I have known.

He has never been physically violent, although he has banged a table when angry. I WOE to keep this down for a long time. However, what got us into T was when my father died, I just couldn't WOE. The grief was overwhelming, and while there was a very good reason to be emotional, we had an argument and he could not control my emotions with his "logic" or get me to stop crying. If I consider the situation, I was probably the most emotional he had ever seen me, and also grieved for a long time so I was not focused on anything else. A rational person would have understood why. He lost control and went off and punched a hole in the wall. The kids saw it. I got hysterical.

He could not deny what happened with a gaping hole in the wall, although he never said anything to the kids and they were afraid to ask him. I did not deny it to me or them. That's what my parents would have done. I confirmed to the kids that we were having trouble. He finally agreed to MC as he realized he could not convince me to deny this. However, he said he would only go if I found a T who would not bring up the idea of divorce.

I was able to find one that focuses on keeping families together and in our first session, she assured him of that. Also, he refuses to consider that he has a significant part of the issues in our marriage. I understand the idea of denial, stuffing ones feelings out of consciousness, but I also think he is somewhat aware and tries to hide it. He has made comments about it, and some "sort of" apologies, however, I think he knows but thinks if he admits that something is going on, that I will leave him- so as long as he doesn't admit it- I won't find out? Out T has been very careful to also avoid bringing anything up about him and he feels safe with her.

I would like to hear what members of this board think of this idea.





Logged
PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES
This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

flowerpath
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic Partner
Posts: 225



« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2015, 11:26:46 AM »

My h is a high-functioning person too.  Although he can be manipulative at times, I believe that a majority of the time his behavior and the lack of discussion about it occurs not to intentionally confuse me and keep me from leaving, but because he just plain doesn’t think right, has little control over his emotions and his response to them, and that it is too painful for him to admit that something is wrong with him.  His behavior happens, it’s over, there’s no apology, and it’s not discussed - even when things are broken or there's a hole in the wall as evidence.  Talk about co-dependent.  I'm the one who patched and painted over most of the holes, cleaned up, and fixed or replaced what was broken.  Done.  It never happened.  Until finding out about BPD, the reason I had been confused was because I didn’t know exactly what was wrong, didn’t realize how I was contributing to the problem, and couldn’t make sense of any of it. 

It’s good that you found a therapist who focuses on keeping families together, that your h agreed to go to therapy, and I hope that you will see progress as a result.  My h chose not to follow through with therapy with two different counselors.  At home, he constantly gave me a hard time about certain things that were said in the sessions.   He quickly left the room the last time I said something about seeing a counselor.  It’s hard for someone who needs so much validation in the first place to own responsibility for how his own behaviors are causing a problem in the marriage. 



Logged
Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2015, 11:35:16 AM »

Thanks flowerpath. I think I am also guilty of cleaning up messes ( co-dependency) but when it came to patching the wall and repairing it, I have no such talent. It was either he fix it, or I call a professional to do it. Naturally, this would entail some exposure that something went on. He fixed it. I know he felt badly about doing that damage and it was not as easy to deny. Thankfully there have not been any more incidents.

We have been in T for a while, and on another thread, I explained that the focus is on me, and me doing a lot of recovery work. I think the therapist is also aware that any focus on him is going to result in him not coming. At the least, I have to recognize that he does make the effort. We don't go that often, as we can only go together when he makes the time in his schedule to do so. This gives him a lot of control of the process. I think, if I let it go, he'd be quite happy. She has gotten him to control his raging better which is good. I wish she'd given me the tools on this board- she has given me a few, but because there is mostly discussion on my co-dependency, his issues remain in the background.

Well, whether he wants me to know or not, I did figure it out. Thank goodness. I was so confused for so long. I think you've said it well:

"It’s hard for someone who needs so much validation in the first place to own responsibility for how his own behaviors are causing a problem in the marriage. "

Logged
Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2015, 12:45:25 PM »

Reading the tools on this board also made me aware of how we need to stay calm and not react to the person's dysregulations. I didn't do this. Since they triggered so much fear in me from chilhood, I would try to explain and then just sob when I realized it was like talking to a brick wall.

I can only imagine how much grief played into my reaction. This doesn't make me responsible for my H's reaction, but I also see how that was like gasoline on a fire.

It is really unfortunate that denial is such an aspect of this disorder. Knowing about it goes a long way. Can you imagine how dangerous it would be for a spouse to not know about something like a food allergy and keep on putting that in the food? It's so sad that the very nature of the disorder keeps the couple from getting the right help.
Logged
vortex of confusion
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3234



« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2015, 01:18:46 PM »

It is really unfortunate that denial is such an aspect of this disorder. Knowing about it goes a long way.

I think denial isn't unique to the disorder. I am thinking about how long I was in denial before I openly admitted that there was something wrong. Part of the reason that I was in denial was that I wasn't sure what was real and what wasn't because I would bring up stuff with my spouse and he would try to talk me out of my feelings. He would excuse things away. It was a mess and I didn't know which way was up.

Your husband's fear of divorce is very similar to something my husband said to me. He is in therapy and going to a 12 step program. I looked into going to a therapist once and when I told him, his first response was, "What if the therapist tells you to divorce me?" He made it pretty clear that he isn't too keen on the idea of me going to therapy. I think he has changed his stance some since then. It was one of those things that really floored me. It is like he wants to keep me away from anyone and anything that is going to encourage me to leave him. Frankly, most of the people that I know in real life seem to wonder why the heck I am still here.
Logged
hergestridge
******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 760


« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2015, 01:28:38 PM »

Confusion was indeed her weapon of choice. Unpleasant events were denied when the sunshine arrived.

One of the worst maneuvers were when I broke up with her. She cried for a while, then told me that she had decided to stay. How do you handle that?
Logged
Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2015, 01:47:46 PM »

It is really unfortunate that denial is such an aspect of this disorder. Knowing about it goes a long way.

I think denial isn't unique to the disorder. I am thinking about how long I was in denial before I openly admitted that there was something wrong. Part of the reason that I was in denial was that I wasn't sure what was real and what wasn't because I would bring up stuff with my spouse and he would try to talk me out of my feelings. He would excuse things away. It was a mess and I didn't know which way was up.

Your husband's fear of divorce is very similar to something my husband said to me. He is in therapy and going to a 12 step program. I looked into going to a therapist once and when I told him, his first response was, "What if the therapist tells you to divorce me?" He made it pretty clear that he isn't too keen on the idea of me going to therapy. I think he has changed his stance some since then. It was one of those things that really floored me. It is like he wants to keep me away from anyone and anything that is going to encourage me to leave him. Frankly, most of the people that I know in real life seem to wonder why the heck I am still here.

Absolutely, I was confused for so long. My H is very skilled at talking me out of my perceptions. In addition, his outer persona is something desirable to people so the argument "everyone thinks I am great besides you" was believable.

That's another reason the fear of divorce didn't make sense to me. He would have no trouble attracting women if that happened. But I realize that this fear is something more. I don't threaten divorce and there are many reasons why I think divorce would not be a good option for me or the family.

Vortex, people may wonder why you are with your H, but nobody knows the entirety of someone's marriage.
Logged
Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2015, 01:52:19 PM »

She cried for a while, then told me that she had decided to stay. How do you handle that?

That sounds like a magical thinking/projection thing, as if saying she has decided to stay will somehow mean you have decided to stay too.

For someone with abandonment fears, I think a breakup would be so threatening that it would trigger a large dissociation between feelings and reality. I think this is the heart of the borderline. They are not psychotic, but a huge emotional upheaval could bring them to that border between real and not.

I think the only thing we can do is be real.
Logged
vortex of confusion
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3234



« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2015, 02:17:05 PM »

That's another reason the fear of divorce didn't make sense to me. He would have no trouble attracting women if that happened. But I realize that this fear is something more. I don't threaten divorce and there are many reasons why I think divorce would not be a good option for me or the family.

As I come out of the fog a bit, my husband's fear of divorce is perfectly understandable. I don't think that my husband's fear has anything to do with losing me as a person. I think his fear stems more from the fact that he would actually have to learn how to do things for himself. He would have to remember to pay bills, clean up, and a whole host of other activities that I currently do. Right now, the only make or break activity that he does is go to work.

I don't threaten divorce but we have talked about what it would take for us to go our separate ways without talking about divorce specifically. Right now, everything is in limbo and I am okay with that as I would much rather things be uncertain than have him try to push me to act like everything is okay and that there is nothing wrong. If he had his way, I think he would like for everything to go back to "normal" where I am the good little wife that takes care of him without complaint.
Logged
Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2015, 02:38:43 PM »

My H also likes having the good little wife who took care of him. I don't mind that role, to a certain extent. Like you, I am the kind of person who likes doing caring things for others. However, I don't like being the good little wife who you get to rage at, blame, give the silent treatment and ignore when you want to and other things. He would very much like to get me to be that unaware wife he married, but that wife's been through too much to go back to that. I could still be a loving wife, but not on those terms.

Divorce is sometimes the best option, but there is no good option once kids and finances are in the mix. It also takes a tremendous amount of time, money and energy. Sometimes there is no other choice, but even in those times, the person one divorces is still the parent of the kids so one still has to have contact. Limbo is understandable. I think it will be clear eventually which steps are best for you. You seem like a very strong person.
Logged
Cole
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic Partner
Posts: 563


« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2015, 02:54:43 PM »

Yes. Absolutely. They keep us confused and do so intentionally. They will be self-centered, petulant, and treat the non like crap for as long as we will take it. Then, they apologize when it becomes necessary to keep us from leaving, only to return to the former ways when they think it is safe to do so. Thus, the strong need for boundaries.

As posted in a previous thread, I went all "McLintock" on my BPDw last week. (For fans of the movie, I did stop short of spanking her!) Explained what she needs to do to prevent me from leaving her come June 1st and even put it in writing.

She did try to tell me it is because she is bipolar (refuses to believe T's BPD dx) and said she was sorry for all the problems she has caused. I told her I accepted her apology for now, but did not change what I expect from her for me to stay. Once she realized I am dead serious this time and that her confusion tactics are not going to work, it seems to have pulled her into reality.

My new boundaries include accepting no more BS and not allowing myself to be confused or sucked back in if she does not follow through as expected. It is written out in black and white so she knows what she has to do and to remind me what I said I will no longer tolerate.    
Logged
vortex of confusion
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3234



« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2015, 03:18:41 PM »

Yes. Absolutely. They keep us confused and do so intentionally. They will be self-centered, petulant, and treat the non like crap for as long as we will take it. Then, they apologize when it becomes necessary to keep us from leaving, only to return to the former ways when they think it is safe to do so. Thus, the strong need for boundaries.

This brings up something that I have pondered and ultimately had to let go. For the longest time, I was set on the fact that my husband was doing all of this intentionally. I would call him on it and he would get all puppy dog on me and would go on about how he didn't mean to hurt me and he didn't mean to do this and that and that his intentions were blah, blah, blah. It was the whole, "But I didn't mean to." I had to start cutting him off and say, "I don't care if you meant to do it or not. Your intention is irrelevant. This is what happened and this is how I feel about it." He would use that whole "I didn't mean to" and it would throw me off and I would get sucked into the fact that he had now become the victim because I was questioning his intentions. I finally had to get to a point where I took any and all discussions about intentions off the table. My favorite analogy is stubbing your toe. Nobody intends to stub their toe. Does that make it hurt any less? Nope, it still hurts like heck to stub your toe.
Logged
Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2015, 03:23:35 PM »

Good for you Cole. I think boundaries go a long way. I had very poor ones when we were first married, so of course he had no reason not to treat me the way I would tolerate it.

I also think they do push us to the point of leaving and then that is where they pull us back.

I can even look back at our engagement. I was willing to put some distance between us as things weren't really going anywhere.The ring appeared.

I think at first he resented being married and projected that on to me. Eventually, I think he did realize he wanted to be married to me, seriously- and I believe that. However, by that time, I was depressed and focusing on the kids. Although I was still married, It just couldn't continue to be invested in it as I felt I had done all I could with no results.  

Then he made a huge effort to get me back, with an apology, probably the most sincere one I ever heard from him, and things got a little better. I think he does sincerely love me and the kids. He has been very good to us in many ways. However, there were still significant relationship issues. He can be nice for a while, but the raging continues -but not like it was, and not some of the other verbal abuses. I also think another reason is that through T, I have stronger boundaries and I will not tolerate how he treated me before. I don't have hope that our issues will go away. We are what we are, but I do hope that I can learn the tools here to manage myself better.

Keep your boundaries and take care of yourself. It all comes down to us holding on to who we are, and what we will tolerate.

Logged
Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2015, 03:31:34 PM »

Vortex, I found that asking about intentions goes nowhere either. Either they intended it and don't want to admit it, or they didn't intend it, but we will never know.

I agree with you that using our energy to ask them why sometimes would be better put into focusing on the behavior. I am still curious about why - from the standpoint of trying to understand their motives and how they think, so I can not react to it. That's why I ask here. In truth though, we can't really know what they are thinking exactly. It just helps me to not take it so personally when I understand it is about their fears, not me.
Logged
vortex of confusion
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3234



« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2015, 03:39:01 PM »

I agree with you that using our energy to ask them why sometimes would be better put into focusing on the behavior. I am still curious about why - from the standpoint of trying to understand their motives and how they think, so I can not react to it. That's why I ask here. In truth though, we can't really know what they are thinking exactly. It just helps me to not take it so personally when I understand it is about their fears, not me.

It is difficult to understand how somebody thinks when that person doesn't understand their own mind half the time. In order to have clear intentions or motives, you have to put some thought into it. Most of them time, there is NO thought. One of the hallmarks of BPD and related issues is "lack of impulse control". A lot of the hurtful things that are done are done because they are unable to stop and think. It is an in the moment decision that has had absolutely no thought put into at all. I don't know how many times I have asked my husband, "What were you thinking?" and had him respond, "I don't know. I guess I wasn't thinking." It is difficult to figure out their motives because they don't know them. Maybe they do and just aren't telling us. I highly doubt that based on watching my husband. He is so childlike in so many ways. The underlying motive that I have seen is them seeking to do whatever is best for them in that moment. I know my husband can't think ahead and has a difficult time seeing potential consequences of his actions.
Logged
Cole
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic Partner
Posts: 563


« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2015, 03:50:32 PM »

Most of them time, there is NO thought. One of the hallmarks of BPD and related issues is "lack of impulse control". A lot of the hurtful things that are done are done because they are unable to stop and think. It is an in the moment decision that has had absolutely no thought put into at all.

I am more likely to overlook the things she does or says in the heat of the moment, like the angry outbursts, because I truly believe there is no impulse control.

It is the ongoing courses of action, the behaviors she has time to think about and change, on which I am putting my foot down.  

Again, she is on board with this. It took me writing out my exit plan from this marriage and giving it to her to get her attention, but she gets it and is trying (at least for the time being).  
Logged
vortex of confusion
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3234



« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2015, 05:16:14 PM »

I am more likely to overlook the things she does or says in the heat of the moment, like the angry outbursts, because I truly believe there is no impulse control.

It is the ongoing courses of action, the behaviors she has time to think about and change, on which I am putting my foot down.  

For me, those in the moment things added up to being ongoing courses of action. To me, I think he has time to think about this stuff and change it but the reality is that he doesn't seem to think beyond the end of his nose. He can't connect the dots on his own behavior. It sounds like you have helped her connect the dots and see how the ongoing courses of action add up.
Logged
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!