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Author Topic: Why treat the ones who love them the most so horribly?  (Read 894 times)
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« on: January 18, 2015, 05:07:38 PM »

There's an old Italian saying that goes: ":)on't where you eat." Yet BPD's continuously do just that. Only to regret it later. Over and over.

Why?  I mean, sure, they have this disorder, but... .What IS it that makes them think they are so entitled to treat the ones who love and care for them the most so horribly?

My BPD partner is serving a 120 day jail sentence for a third DUI in another state. I keep his daughter (who is not mine) and take good care of her. I have taken care of his bills (with his money, I will give him that) and sat at home waiting on his collect calls for nearly 100 days now. He says he has gone to classes there and is "better"... .blah blah blah. But every few weeks he has a "meltdown" and we get into a petty disagreement and he demands that I take his daughter to his 68 year old mother's house along with his debit card, etc. We have done this a few times. And each time, he realizes his mother can't handle it and the child comes back to me, etc.

I feel bad for the child (her mother is completely out of the picture). Basically, I'm all this man has--and the rage and the horrible decisions that negatively affect his child--he continues the same pattern.  The silly boy can't even "fake it" long enough to get home!

Can anyone help me make sense of this craziness? I am not interested in recycling the relationship when he returns, but there are kids involved and he needs to get his stuff out of my house when he gets home. I was also his only means of a home/bed for him and his child. But I have kids too and have to save myself. I know all this.

I just need some perspective from my BPD family. Can they really not help but to bite the hand that feeds them? Really? Even when a little child is involved? How can this be?
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2015, 05:19:03 PM »

Hello MJBL, I feel for your situation. I have experienced much the same. They seem prepared to burn every bridge... .including the last one, for "perceived" slights.

It is maddening and very sad. What is it they get out of hitting rock bottom?. While practising deep understanding you may make progress especially with the tools on this site. You may be able to enjoy yourself in the relationship. I sense you are past that now. But be careful in trying to get your head around it. You might injure yourself. 

Hugs to you.
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2015, 05:33:24 PM »

It seems to me they do this to the people who get close to them.

whether it is a defence mechanism to protect them as they fear you have seen beyond their walls. Whether they feel comfortable enough with you to let their normal behaviour out or whether its just si hard for them ti keep the mask on all the time. Whatever it is its one of the most unfair things about BPD. The people that love them the most get hurt and abused the most.
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2015, 05:59:40 PM »

I'm sorry you're in the middle of that MJ, it sounds very challenging.

You're trying to apply rational thought to figure out a personality disorder, a mental illness.  It won't work.  If you really want to understand, the articles on this site have a lot of good information, and the clinical side of the disorder made all the lights come on for me, I suddenly understood why my ex does what she does; didn't make it OK or acceptable, but at least I finally understood it.  Or you could just say to hell with it and protect yourself and your kids; if he does exhibit strong traits of the disorder he is doing the best he can the way he's wired, just don't try and make rational sense of it.  Take care of you!
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2015, 06:04:06 PM »

It's one of those things - you just have to chalk it up to something you will never understand, and just accept this is the way it is.  What you described is pretty textbook BPD behavior (if not defining BPD behavior).  Close relationships bring them a ton of fear - fear that the r/s will end.  So, they tend to act in illogical ways to satisfy that illogical fear.  They don't want to be "dumped" again.  The weird thing is, the way they act certainly ensures they will be "dumped".  But they want an excuse to blame it on the other person.  

The real frustrating thing is when they are self aware that they are acting mean towards others, apologize, then do the exact same thing a very short time later.  This is because pwBPD lack executive control.  They feel something = must be true = have to respond.  They have almost ZERO capability to stop themselves from doing something irrational to hurt the situation.
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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2015, 06:05:05 PM »

Thank you to you all for your responses... .it's amazing how much a little validation can do for my confidence. And I need some confidence to get through this... .thanks again.
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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2015, 07:37:14 PM »

I have asked my BPDh this many times over the course of our relationship, and his answer is, "I expect more out of you than I do other people, and you always disappoint me."

Of course, his expectations can be unreasonable, to which there is no way any human being could meet them.
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« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2015, 07:48:43 PM »

I have asked my BPDh this many times over the course of our relationship, and his answer is, "I expect more out of you than I do other people, and you always disappoint me."

Of course, his expectations can be unreasonable, to which there is no way any human being could meet them.

Yes, I find it very disturbing how they expect so much of us yet get upset when we try to expect anything from them. My husband went so far as to say that he sees me as his higher power (that is taken a bit out of context). The gist is that he has me so high up on a friggin' pedestal sometimes that there is no way that I could live up to anything that he wants. Sometimes I wonder if the crappy treatment is their way of punishing us for not living up to whatever it is that they want.
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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2015, 07:49:04 PM »

I have asked my BPDh this many times over the course of our relationship, and his answer is, "I expect more out of you than I do other people, and you always disappoint me."

Of course, his expectations can be unreasonable, to which there is no way any human being could meet them.

Their unrealistic expectations are so frustrating.  If a pwBPD just had some friends or normal relatives, you'd hope that maybe some reality testing would be done.  It's like when a pwBPD tries to compromise she expects to get 90% of the pie.  In my case, the only person my pwBPD seemed to turn to was her mom, who I think would say, "Yeah, you should get 90% (e.g., the man should do all of the commuting even if he has to work 5 more hours each day), that's normal."
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« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2015, 06:50:33 AM »

his expectations can be unreasonable, to which there is no way any human being could meet them.

Not only of you, but himself and everyone.

The longer they know someone it becomes obvious that they cant achieve this "role  model" they have attributed to them.

This is why they often hate themselves as they are constantly having to face that they are not as good as they believe they are.

They are on top of their own list of let downs. Close relationships are second on that list, followed by family and work colleagues, and so on down the line through acquaintances to complete strangers and blow ins.

People they hardly know are not around long enough to blow the superhero image they may have been assigned.

Truth is there are no supermen or women, just normal folks. pwBPD only see superheros and villans
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« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2015, 07:51:29 AM »

I have asked my BPDh this many times over the course of our relationship, and his answer is, "I expect more out of you than I do other people, and you always disappoint me."

Of course, his expectations can be unreasonable, to which there is no way any human being could meet them.

This is the theme of my relationship. I can not meet his expectations. Ironically, he says he feels the same way about me. He has extremely high expectations of himself, and so has them of others. It is him who put these expectations on himself, not me,  but he tells me it is me.

I think we all have expectations in a marriage. I know that I expect a certain level of moral behavior. I think the 10 commandments is a good basic list- even if someone is not religious. I think we can expect that our spouses not be murderers, criminals, or physically abusive at the very least. Then I think we also can have additional expectations depending on our own values.

However, it isn't healthy to have perfection as one of them. No spouse can be nice, happy, available, comforting,... .100% of the time. We are human and sometimes have our own things to take care of.

I have found that if one can not accept the imperfections in oneself, it is hard to accept them in others.
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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2015, 08:00:32 AM »

In short because we let them.  If my ex treated his friends the way he treats me they would kick him to the curb. So he didn't. I on the other hand tried to reason with him. I tried to see it from his perspective. I tried to explain mine. lolololol Hopeless. If I had drawn a hard line right up front I would have done better for myself. Anyway we mustn't beat ourselves up. We did the best we had with the knowledge we had and now all we can do is heal and live our best lives.
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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2015, 08:02:36 AM »

I have another explanation that is based on the idea that pwBPD are emotionally immature. In families where the mother is the main caretaker of the kids ( It could be with fathers too, but I mostly hear this from mothers since this is the more common arrangement)- if you ask the mother who the child is most likely to misbehave with, the mother will say it is her.

Why does the child misbehave the most with the person who is there, loving, and secure the most. The mother's constant unbending love is why. The child feels secure enough to test the boundaries when in a loving secure relationship. This is normal behavior- all kids test boundaries, and the parent who has healthy boundaries is able to teach the child about having healthy boundaries in a loving relationship.

Now, imagine that in a critical, or invalidating parenting situation, this can get really messed up. Let's say a boundary is that you can't have a cookie before dinner. The kid is going to test this and ask for a cookie. Mom's response needs to be that I love you and you can not have a cookie. The kid will push this, maybe have a tantrum, pout, scream, whatever. Mom has to stay calm and not let him have a cookie. He is not likely to do this with someone else- teacher, other parent as the relationship isn't as secure. The kid also knows that if he asks grandma, he is more likely to get the cookie. The child in a family that is critical or has poor boundaries may ask for a cookie and get " You don't want a cookie" or get spanked and yelled at for asking for a cookie. Or he can just get a cookie and learn that when mom sets a rule she doesn't mean it.

Kids are smart. They know who and when they can act up. Our spouses know this too. They know that if they act up at work, they will probably get fired. With some relationships, they act up and the other person leaves. They've tested us. We are still here. However, if we can, like a good parent, stay calm, loving, and enforce our boundaries, maybe we can find a bit of peace in this for ourselves.
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« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2015, 12:35:17 PM »

Sometimes my H's expectations are based on his perceptions ( which sometimes are way off kilter), especially anything involving time. Since he lacks patience, one minute of waiting seems like an hour to him.

An example, and this has happened numerous times... .we're out and I need to use the bathroom. I go into the bathroom and return within a normal amount of time. He is there waiting and says to me , "what the hell were you doing in there? ___ting? No one could possibly take that long to pee!" And then he'd be angry at me because I was a "slow-ass".
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« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2015, 03:34:31 PM »

I have another explanation that is based on the idea that pwBPD are emotionally immature. In families where the mother is the main caretaker of the kids ( It could be with fathers too, but I mostly hear this from mothers since this is the more common arrangement)- if you ask the mother who the child is most likely to misbehave with, the mother will say it is her.

Why does the child misbehave the most with the person who is there, loving, and secure the most. The mother's constant unbending love is why. The child feels secure enough to test the boundaries when in a loving secure relationship. This is normal behavior- all kids test boundaries, and the parent who has healthy boundaries is able to teach the child about having healthy boundaries in a loving relationship.

Now, imagine that in a critical, or invalidating parenting situation, this can get really messed up. Let's say a boundary is that you can't have a cookie before dinner. The kid is going to test this and ask for a cookie. Mom's response needs to be that I love you and you can not have a cookie. The kid will push this, maybe have a tantrum, pout, scream, whatever. Mom has to stay calm and not let him have a cookie. He is not likely to do this with someone else- teacher, other parent as the relationship isn't as secure. The kid also knows that if he asks grandma, he is more likely to get the cookie. The child in a family that is critical or has poor boundaries may ask for a cookie and get " You don't want a cookie" or get spanked and yelled at for asking for a cookie. Or he can just get a cookie and learn that when mom sets a rule she doesn't mean it.

Kids are smart. They know who and when they can act up. Our spouses know this too. They know that if they act up at work, they will probably get fired. With some relationships, they act up and the other person leaves. They've tested us. We are still here. However, if we can, like a good parent, stay calm, loving, and enforce our boundaries, maybe we can find a bit of peace in this for ourselves.

Caution has to be taken when comparing pwBPD with kids. Kids are evolving emotionally, testing and learning. You as the adult have control and greater influence. An adult with BPD is not evolving the same, they have been repeating this behavior, stuck, for years. they don't care about your boundaries. They are not testing to see how strong they are. They do not understand boundaries the same as a kid. Boundaries are an alien concept

Hence they will try to cross the same one over and over, hardly seeming to evolve an understanding. This is why threats of enforcement doesn't work the same as it does with kids. We have to act to protect our boundaries, and that may be over and over. It is as much about stopping the incursion as it is teaching them anything.

Inability to link cause and effect is at the core of self sabotaging, and an impaired ability to learn from past mistakes.
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« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2015, 03:48:36 PM »

I agree with you waverider- the years, along with some adult functions, needs, and privileges, make this something different. The inability to link cause and effect is a big one. Seeing how disordered parenting can disrupt and alter how a child learns boundaries is a model of how the disorder may have started. I don't think it is easy to have new learning, but I have noticed that being able to stay calm while they disregulate can have an effect, maybe if it is even just for us.
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« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2015, 04:18:46 PM »

Excerpt
It is as much about stopping the incursion as it is teaching them anything.

Yep.  And I wasn't looking to be in a relationship with someone I needed to parent, teach, or stop incursions with.  Parroting "adult" well enough to attach was impressive, of course we get good at anything we practice for a lifetime, although it will never go beyond parroting with her, but at least it's a flow-through system, on to the next.  So being a graduate of borderline school, I think I'm a lot better at parrot spotting, gut feeling, and denial busting.  Stay tuned for updates... .
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« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2015, 04:40:16 PM »

I think they treat us the worst because we put up with it. We let little things slide and little things turn into big things. Partially we put up with it because we love them and want to cut them some slack, and partially because sometimes it seems like too much trouble to set boundaries--or we're not accustomed to having to set boundaries.

To take an example out of the human realm, I typically see people treat their horses in ways I would never allow. One of my friends lets her horses push into her and search her pockets for treats because she thinks they're "being affectionate". I think they're being dangerous and if they try that with people who don't know about horses, they could potentially injure someone.

However, I do let my horses get away with things I shouldn't--such as when they're begging for more treats, but I draw the line with things that could potentially injure them or someone else.

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« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2015, 04:43:13 PM »

his expectations can be unreasonable, to which there is no way any human being could meet them.

Not only of you, but himself and everyone.

The longer they know someone it becomes obvious that they cant achieve this "role  model" they have attributed to them.

This is why they often hate themselves as they are constantly having to face that they are not as good as they believe they are.

They are on top of their own list of let downs. Close relationships are second on that list, followed by family and work colleagues, and so on down the line through acquaintances to complete strangers and blow ins.

People they hardly know are not around long enough to blow the superhero image they may have been assigned.

Truth is there are no supermen or women, just normal folks. pwBPD only see superheros and villans

This is very spot-on. My dBPDh has been painting me white recently and will say things like "I don't know why you are with me" "All I'm doing is holding you down", etc. He said every time he re-evaluates our relationship (which I guess must be often), and every time he comes back to how much we have in common, how much we enjoy each other's company, etc etc

One time he even said he thinks his purpose in our relationship is he is going to 'save me from something big one day'. He's heavily paranoid and talks a lot about survival in apocolyptic situations.

The only way he could make sense of our relationship was put himself into a "hero" slot for me... .down the road. I am his 'hero' now, so he can be mine later. That's his logic.

Of course, when he's pissed well... .he hates me, ALL i do is this... .ALL I do is that... .so we know how this goes.

Villain/Hero of the Day.
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« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2015, 04:47:02 PM »

I think they treat us the worst because we put up with it. We let little things slide and little things turn into big things. Partially we put up with it because we love them and want to cut them some slack, and partially because sometimes it seems like too much trouble to set boundaries--or we're not accustomed to having to set boundaries.

I know that I am pretty forgiving. If somebody messes up a couple of times, it isn't really that big of a deal. After all, I like it when I am treated with fairness and forgiveness. But, when those little things add up to a pervasive pattern over the course of years, then it is no longer something small. I think that is where I got into trouble as it were. I was looking at all this stuff as isolated incidents and wasn't seeing the overall pattern.

Who the heck thinks of having to set boundaries with a spouse? That completely goes against my idea of a healthy marriage/relationship/partnership.
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« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2015, 05:04:10 PM »

I think they treat us the worst because we put up with it. We let little things slide and little things turn into big things. Partially we put up with it because we love them and want to cut them some slack, and partially because sometimes it seems like too much trouble to set boundaries--or we're not accustomed to having to set boundaries.

I know that I am pretty forgiving. If somebody messes up a couple of times, it isn't really that big of a deal. After all, I like it when I am treated with fairness and forgiveness. But, when those little things add up to a pervasive pattern over the course of years, then it is no longer something small. I think that is where I got into trouble as it were. I was looking at all this stuff as isolated incidents and wasn't seeing the overall pattern.

Who the heck thinks of having to set boundaries with a spouse? That completely goes against my idea of a healthy marriage/relationship/partnership.

I would think having boundaries would be healthy in every relationship, whether it be a marriage or otherwise O.o
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« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2015, 08:55:05 PM »

I think they treat us the worst because we put up with it. We let little things slide and little things turn into big things. Partially we put up with it because we love them and want to cut them some slack, and partially because sometimes it seems like too much trouble to set boundaries--or we're not accustomed to having to set boundaries.

To take an example out of the human realm, I typically see people treat their horses in ways I would never allow. One of my friends lets her horses push into her and search her pockets for treats because she thinks they're "being affectionate". I think they're being dangerous and if they try that with people who don't know about horses, they could potentially injure someone.

However, I do let my horses get away with things I shouldn't--such as when they're begging for more treats, but I draw the line with things that could potentially injure them or someone else.

Awesome. I can't agree with you more about the horses. I can't stand it when horses root or trample you. yet I teach all mine to bow and whinny for treats and then I total sucker for it and reward them. :-) Thanks for the share. It made me smile on a long hard day.
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« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2015, 10:38:34 PM »

Awesome. I can't agree with you more about the horses. I can't stand it when horses root or trample you. yet I teach all mine to bow and whinny for treats and then I total sucker for it and reward them. :-) Thanks for the share. It made me smile on a long hard day.

Hi Hope,

I teach mine to back up whenever I feed them. They go into their stalls and the procedure is to touch my outstretched hand, back up, and then when I tell them, "good" they come forward and I tell them, "be polite" and they turn their heads so I can drop hay or pellets into their feeder.

It's fun when I have someone else feed and they see the backing up and the head turn, unasked for.

What's really funny is when they're out in the pasture and someone walks by (who could potentially have treats) and they start backing up and looking expectantly.

Good for you for teaching them to bow. I haven't tried that yet.


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« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2015, 01:53:14 AM »

It is as much about stopping the incursion as it is teaching them anything.

Yep.  And I wasn't looking to be in a relationship with someone I needed to parent, teach, or stop incursions with.

I'm the same. I don't have the spontaneous inclination to 'parent'. As I discover more about myself (I am still new to this), I find that I kind of like the 'maverick' aspect of it, sort of. Trying new communication tools, and seeing how it changes the emotional tone of a conversation, that's different for a change...

I still find myself wanting to say it like it is, through my experience. I feel a strong need to connect and be authentic in every way I can, because I can only imagine how it might feel from them inside, to 'know' one is definitely not getting through. I feel more like I am meta-talking. Not being a super-human, not a teacher, but sort of telegraphing 'Hey there! I see you. I'm right here. I'm not perfect, I'm new to this and I'm learning just like you, so I'll make mistakes. This is what I got. What do you have?' I like it a lot when I feel I get through and she does feel she can get through too

Yet, I am repeatedly baffled by the 'predictably unpredictable'.

It's interesting Waverider, because in another post you shared that the experience and the subsequent learning you did enriched your life.  I've been thinking about this some more. I remember a time last year when my mother had a series of mini strokes and for a few weeks, she lost the functionality of her communication centers (in her brain). She gradually came back, but for a few weeks, I was panicking along my siblings, scrambling to 'make her talk'. As much as we tried, and as much as she tried, it was a mess of frustrations.

Extremely difficult for us, as we all thought 'this is it, we're losing her'. At same time, my mother's behavior changed drastically. She became very 'reactionary' and hypersensitive to our emotions, a bit similar to what some BPD behavior looks like to me now. We thought at the time that this was caused by the stroke having changed some of her 'character'. But gradually, as she started to recover her ability to communicate and became more effective, the reactionary behaviors stopped. Now, she doesn't even remembers what she used to say (totally off the wall hurtful things to anybody trying to help her with her physical pain, etc... ) or do. Amnesia.

Interesting enough, now she's well beyond hope, and we talk about that time last year with her. She does not remember the thoughts and the behaviors, but she invariably remembers how it felt. I tried one of the tools with her, SET I think. And she got quiet for a moment.

I beleive there is much more to learn about the physiology of our human ability to connect and the roles of the brain in this.

 
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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2015, 04:08:20 AM »

It is as much about stopping the incursion as it is teaching them anything.

So being a graduate of borderline school, I think I'm a lot better at parrot spotting, gut feeling, and denial busting.  Stay tuned for updates... .

I think I've had to repeat BPD kindergarten for about 30 years... .

Yes, boundaries are important in every relationship. However, I think that two people with healthy boundaries don't need to constantly defend them as they aren't constantly stomping over each other's boundaries, and if they do step over a boundary, they learn not to.

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waverider
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: married 8 yrs, together 16yrs
Posts: 7405


If YOU don't change, things will stay the same


« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2015, 05:31:04 AM »

Yes, boundaries are important in every relationship. However, I think that two people with healthy boundaries don't need to constantly defend them as they aren't constantly stomping over each other's boundaries, and if they do step over a boundary, they learn not to.

This the demoralizing aspect. You think you have something finally nailed, then one day up it pops again as though it has never been addressed before
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  Reality is shared and open to debate, feelings are individual and real
hope2727
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2015, 05:58:32 AM »

Yes, boundaries are important in every relationship. However, I think that two people with healthy boundaries don't need to constantly defend them as they aren't constantly stomping over each other's boundaries, and if they do step over a boundary, they learn not to.

This the demoralizing aspect. You think you have something finally nailed, then one day up it pops again as though it has never been addressed before

EXACTLY! There is never any resolution.
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123Phoebe
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2015, 06:19:44 AM »

Yes, boundaries are important in every relationship. However, I think that two people with healthy boundaries don't need to constantly defend them as they aren't constantly stomping over each other's boundaries, and if they do step over a boundary, they learn not to.

This the demoralizing aspect. You think you have something finally nailed, then one day up it pops again as though it has never been addressed before

EXACTLY! There is never any resolution.

Never say never   Also, this is precisely the reason that it's asked over and over on the Staying board, "Can you live with this, without trying to change the other person to suit your ideals?"  Are you in this relationship because you're choosing to be?  Or for some other reason?  Are you attached to their potential?  Or do you love and care about this person as they are, warts and all?
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waverider
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: married 8 yrs, together 16yrs
Posts: 7405


If YOU don't change, things will stay the same


« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2015, 08:03:37 AM »

Yes, boundaries are important in every relationship. However, I think that two people with healthy boundaries don't need to constantly defend them as they aren't constantly stomping over each other's boundaries, and if they do step over a boundary, they learn not to.

This the demoralizing aspect. You think you have something finally nailed, then one day up it pops again as though it has never been addressed before

EXACTLY! There is never any resolution.

Just as a heads up this feeling of not making any headway a lot of the time is just perception. You learn a lot, you see BPD in shadows were previously you could not see at all. The problem seems to get bigger the more you know.

This does not mean you are not making progress. at times it pays to do a reality progress check just to reaffirm you are still travelling forward.

A good place to do this is to take a time out and visit [L6] Taking Personal Inventory. Here you can talk about the big picture. "This is were I started>This what progress has been made>This is were I am at now>These are my plans for the future".

It is worth doing this to maintain perspective
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  Reality is shared and open to debate, feelings are individual and real
fromheeltoheal
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Broken up, I left her
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2015, 08:17:06 AM »

Excerpt
Or do you love and care about this person as they are, warts and all?

No.
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