Needs, wants, & values

[vortex of confusion]

In another thread started by Grey Kitty, the topic of needs, wants, and values came up. The thread is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240815.0;all

At some point in the conversation Form Flier said:

For purposes of our discussion here... .are we on good footing to call these issues "needs"... .or "wants"... .or "values"

I like to keep "need" as a word that gets used for true "life issues"... .food, air, water... .

The topic got closed before there was any discussion about the differences between needs, wants, and values. I am in a bit of limbo with my relationship with my husband. Based on how things are now, my ultimate goal is to leave. However, while I am here, I want things to be as peaceful as possible. I think distinguishing between a want, a need, and a value might help me to better determine what I should compromise over and what I should enforce a boundary over.

I am not really sure what to think but would like to get more thoughts and discussion going around this topic.

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[MaroonLiquid]

Here's my take... .

Want... .80" 4K UHD TV

Need... .Food for sustenance

Value... .Will not date/be married to someone who doesn't have a strong spiritual Christian foundation.

A value is something you will not compromise.  Now, we are here because we either did or didn't know what our values were to begin with. 

[vortex of confusion]

Here's my take... .

Want... .80" 4K UHD TV

Need... .Food for sustenance

Value... .Will not date/be married to someone who doesn't have a strong spiritual Christian foundation.

A value is something you will not compromise.  Now, we are here because we either did or didn't know what our values were to begin with. 

Thanks MaroonLiquid!

It all sounds so simple when you write it out like that.

I used to know what my values were and I thought I was pretty clear on them. But, after being with my husband for 18 years, my values and my desires/wants seem to have gone by the wayside and I am trying to get back to that place where my values are clearly defined and I can live them without wondering, "Am I crazy for valuing this?"

[yeeter]

This seems a worthwhile topic (imo), and was a big part of the work I did on myself.

To me, a 'need' is more than purely physical sustaining of life.  (like food/water).  First, I make the assumption that I 'want' to live a healthy life (simply sustaining life is inadequate).  And you can say this is a want, but if you are willing to place this as only a want you may as well go to jail, where you will get physical needs filled but by no means is that enough (again, just my opinion).

So to live a healthy life, this includes physical but also emotional health.

So now we get into it.  What do you 'need' to sustain your physical and emotional well being?  Most agree that physical abuse is a show stopper.  And on this board at least, we dont advocate putting up with emotional abuse.  So it becomes some boundaries about what constitutes emotional abuse - at a lower threshold.  Those are minimums.

Then on top of this we can layer the goal of not only 'surviving', but 'thriving'  (I know seems a lofty goal, given the state that many are in when they first land here).  But why not thriving?  (at least as a goal, no matter how far away it seems at the moment)

What does it take for you to thrive as an individual?  Here is where a lot of the work and self reflection is to be done.  And where you can challenge yourself from your traditional thinking and 'values' even.  (to me, values are only a means to an end, and tend to migrate over time and environment - surprisingly, there are some things I once valued highly that are no longer as critical a priority to me).  Yes values are foundational to determining what you need, but to me at least they are not so rigidly deterministic that they cant be challenged.  If its something that you absolutely HAVE to have, by definition its a 'need' (to you, in the context of a relationship).  Its worth understanding the underlying reasons why that item is a must have (ask yourself why 5 times in a row after each answer, which is a trick to trying to understanding root cause).  Often it gets us back to FOO.

An example:  As a human, I need to be able to interact with other humans.  So, as the relationship keeps me isolated and away from other human interactions, its not healthy.  How can I get these interactions while still being in the relationship?  (friends, family, hobby groups, work groups, et al).  I had to make these things a higher priority than whatever relational crisis of the day (because there is always something, and if you let yourself suck into the black hole it is infinite).  There is where boundaries come into play.  Taking action.  And taking care of myself, by knowing myself and knowing what I need to maintain emotional health (which is hugely necessary to survive the relationship).  So one of my actions was to increase interaction level with other humans.  A number of positive things by doing that.

Your partner might fight it at first.  But its a need.  Meaning, not negotiable.  And as a 'need' is a higher priority than the relationship (in the limit, the trick in real life is maintaining the balance, its often made into an all or nothing choice by our partners when in reality its often about balance).  Thats where detachment helps.  Your partner upset about you interacting with other humans?  Ok.  You can validate, and empathize even, but its not really a choice because its a need.  So you go do it anyway, and they can be upset if they want to.

Just an example, there are many others.

[Crumbling]

this is a great topic, thanks VoC!

Ditto to what Yeeter said. 

I've done this!  I just decided I couldn't do something that used to be acceptable for me to do, any more.  I set the boundary, and that was what told him - I need this.  You have needs.  They get met.  I have needs, they deserve to be respected to.   The way I am meeting them is with this boundary.

It's working, he does respect it, but it's like Yeet said, initially he rebels, or goes out of whack or something when I enforce it.  I have to stay calm, and grounded, and let him work thru all his sh!t, and after being boombarded with a whole bunch of hate, be strong enough to enforce it again, because he continually challenges the boundary.  its hard... over and over.  But so worth it, when things do actually work out in a good way.

But back on topic -

I define a need as something that I feel I HAVE to have, for my own well being - physically, emotionally or mentally - equally.  And it's a different feeling than wanting something. 

Sometimes I only realize a need isn't being met, until after I fall, emotionally.  This is why I need to remember to stay focused on me.

Blessings, c.

[vortex of confusion]

I define a need as something that I feel I HAVE to have, for my own well being - physically, emotionally or mentally - equally.  And it's a different feeling than wanting something. 

Hmmm. . .

I am trying to figure out what I feel that I HAVE to have (other than air, water, food, sleep). I have always considered myself a very low maintenance person that doesn't have a lot of needs. Other than the most basic of things, I can talk myself out of needing pretty much anything and that is part of the problem.

[MissyM]

I am trying to figure out what I feel that I HAVE to have (other than air, water, food, sleep). I have always considered myself a very low maintenance person that doesn't have a lot of needs.

Yes, that is a part of the problem.  Being willing to sacrifice myself has gotten me into all kinds of problems. 

For me it is down to non-negotiables based upon my values.  I think we are all saying the same thing with different words.  I don't think the semantics matter that much.  It does matter for each of us to understand our own needs/wants/values.  We can't work on having/getting these things met if we don't even know what ours are.

[vortex of confusion]

Yes, that is a part of the problem.  Being willing to sacrifice myself has gotten me into all kinds of problems. 

For me it is down to non-negotiables based upon my values.  I think we are all saying the same thing with different words.  I don't think the semantics matter that much.  It does matter for each of us to understand our own needs/wants/values.  We can't work on having/getting these things met if we don't even know what ours are.

Very true! I think I know what my values are. I am still trying to decide which ones are non-negotiable and which ones have some wiggle room.

I feel like I am missing something because I feel like I know what I want and what my values are but I am in a situation where I am pretty sure that I am not going to get those things.

Right now, I am in a place where my number one value, priority, whatever you want to call it is to give my kids the best life possible. I don't know how to make that happen. I don't know if the best option would be to suck it up and commit myself to the relationship with my husband or if it would be to leave him. I know that I am not really clearly stating a value. Some things that I can articulate:

-I will not accept physical abuse.

-I will not accept verbal abuse. I am still trying to figure out what is verbal abuse and what is him being grumpy. I have been trying to nip some of his grumpiness in the bud by interrupting him and saying stuff like, "Yes, you have a really good point but nobody is going to listen to you when you talk like that." (I did that this morning when he started yelling at one of the kids to try to get a point across. His point was valid but the way he was saying was complete jerk.)

-Long term, I want consistency. I am not expecting perfection but I do need to be able to rely on something even if that something is that he isn't going to do something. Does that make any sense? I am tired of the uncertainty. I don't think I am articulating this very well as I am not certain how I can get this within the relationship.

-I want to be valued as a person. I am not sure what that looks like or what it might entail or even how to get it. And, I have the question: "Why is that necessary?" Valuing and loving myself should be enough. Is wanting to be valued by another person seeking something outside myself or is it okay to want/need/value? I am listing it as all three because I don't know where it might fall within the grand scheme of things.

I need to think on this some more. Any other thoughts, ideas, input?

[Notwendy]

I have a specific want, in fact, it could be a need. It's something I feel I need to give up expectations of, perhaps not hope entirely, but I also have a lot of doubt that it is obtainable.

We get along quite well on a level that is not deeply personal. Where things get difficult it at the deeply intimate level. We can talk about current events, a TV show, the kids (objectively) but something like asking him a personal question about anything he could be emotional about is likely to trigger him. If he doesn't rage, there's circular speech, kitchen sink talk, introducing other subjects to take the conversation off course. Eventually, I will get exhausted and emotional and that triggers a rage.

He doesn't ask for what he wants. That leaves me to guess. Being co-dependent, I did this quite well- guessing and anticipating his wants and needs. This also results in anger and rage when I somehow don't meet his expectations. The fact that our interpersonal communication is so poor makes us prone to his misinterpreting me. ( and vice versa no doubt).

One of my goals has been to not be so codependent. I wish for him to learn to ask for what he wants, but that is his task if he chooses. However, he won't if I keep jumping in to meet his needs.  One of my needs is clear communication. The other evening I told him I wanted to do something. He replied "I was thinking about seeing this new movie". That's all he said, no asking or discussing is further. He didn't say " would you rather come to the movies" or anything that would ask that. I jumped in and started "fixing" the problem- " could we go another night? " then I stopped. It is up to him to decide how to get us to the movies since that is his want, or at least express it. After I walked away, I had a strong urge to cancel my plans and tell him we were going to the movies. This is what I have done countless times and not even thought about it. This is me fixing his want to do something and giving up what I want to do. So, I made plans to do something with him when I got back and went, but it felt uncomfortable to not do what I usually would do.

On a deeper level though, I think we all want to be "seen" as we are, not what someone imagines we are, and our inability to do this is sad for me. I realize I can have close friendships with others, but there is something special about being "known" to your spouse. It is even the term used in the Bible " He "knew" her, and even if someone is not religious, the use of that term for a physical/emotional/spiritual bond is indicative that this bond is special. Perhaps part of "knowing" for me is to accept that this isn't a place I can go with him. I do get the "Men are from Mars, women from Venus" idea that my H is not inclined to be as talkative as I am, but even with this idea, we are inept at talking about personal things.

[yeeter]

Good questions for yourself.  My thoughts

-Long term, I want consistency. I am not expecting perfection but I do need to be able to rely on something even if that something is that he isn't going to do something. Does that make any sense? I am tired of the uncertainty. I don't think I am articulating this very well as I am not certain how I can get this within the relationship.

This disorder is, by definition, a yo yo ride.  Knowing this enables you to make your own consistency.  You arent going to get it from your partner.  But in a way you do, because the reality is that you arent going to predict a reaction.  'predictably' unpredictable.  So its within your own power to set things up such they arent dependent upon your partner behaving a certain way.  If one reaction, go with it.  If a different reaction, go with it.

-I want to be valued as a person. I am not sure what that looks like or what it might entail or even how to get it. And, I have the question: "Why is that necessary?" Valuing and loving myself should be enough. Is wanting to be valued by another person seeking something outside myself or is it okay to want/need/value? I am listing it as all three because I don't know where it might fall within the grand scheme of things.

Valuing yourself is number one.  Then build family/friends and other personal interactions that value you.  The question might be, why is it so important to me, to get my validation from this one particular individual?  You were single once, right?  I assume you valued yourself then, so I would challenge to what degree this is a 'need' vs something you can get in some other way.

As for giving the kids the best possible life:  This is the single and simple reason I choose to stay, work on skills, work on myself, and be there for my kids.  I genuinely believe they are better of with me in their lives on a daily basis, than in a bitter, contentious 'coparenting' situation with an individual that has a personality disorder (and in my case primary custody would go the the woman, its just the way the system is designed).

Is this the best for my own happiness?  Yes and no.   I decided what is best is whats best for my kids so yes.  But I had to give up on some of the concepts of what my relationship would be.  My model of what the family dynamics would be ideally.  The idea that kids learn relationships from what gets modeled at home (a hard one to swallow!).  A list of ideals had to be let go (and this is where the stages of grief was useful, knowing that I was grieving the loss of certain ideals and expectations).

Its working. I have regular discussions with my children about when mom gets 'upset'.  Im trying to transfer as many skills to them as I can on how to manage and handle it.  All the while not undermining or suggesting she doesnt love them.  Of course I have limited solutions myself, but being there in the moment definitely helps.

[Crumbling]

That's a good list, VoC.      You've got a good base to build on with this.

"I want to be valued as a person." - just an observation on this one... .I had to give up wanting this.  Although BPDh will say he loves me and 'couldn't live without me', I rarely feel that it is actually true.  If he truly valued me, he would consider my suggestions equal to his, hear me when I voice my feelings, and support my decisions.  He doesn't.  And it leaves me feeling disrespected, and in turn, undervalued as a partner in the r/s.  I just don't believe anymore that he has the capacity to bring this to the relationship.  It's hard to accept, but I'm trying.   

As for doing what is best for your kids... .I had the philosophy that what was best for me would be the best thing for them because a more grounded, healthy mom would be a better mom, and that was good for them.

The reality was different, tho.  The reality was that the burdens of being a single parent, and his response to the divorce, were just as, if not more, challenging than trying to reach a middle ground with  my ex and 'being a better mom' proved to be a harder challenge than I realized. 

And today, I often look back and wonder what they learned from my decision to leave... .that it's okay to walk away from someone you care for... .that compromise and muddling though issues isn't as important as doing what you want... .lots of doubt that the decision I made back then, that felt like it was the best one for all of us at the time, may not have been.  I can't hold regret, and I don't.  I know I wouldn't be the person I am today if I hadn't of left him.  But was it best for them?  Don't know, and I will never know.

Your situation is different than mine.  My ex was not BPD.  He was cold, logical and mechanical but not BPD.  What he wanted out of life was far different than what I wanted and it drove us further and further apart.  Then he cheated on me, and lied about it even after I waved the proof in his face. It was my boundary and it was breached and I made him leave.  He retaliated by cutting contact with the kids, thus hurting them far deeper than what I ever imaged the divorce would, because it never occurred to me that he would be THAT cold.  But he was.  Would I have left if I'd known that he would do this?  Don't know.

HIndsight is golden, right?  Just sharing what I've been through in hopes that it helps you look at your situation from all angles.

good intentions to you,

c.

[vortex of confusion]

This disorder is, by definition, a yo yo ride.  Knowing this enables you to make your own consistency.  You arent going to get it from your partner.  But in a way you do, because the reality is that you arent going to predict a reaction.  'predictably' unpredictable.  So its within your own power to set things up such they arent dependent upon your partner behaving a certain way.  If one reaction, go with it.  If a different reaction, go with it.

Very good point! I am trying to figure out how to make my own consistency. I feel like I am pretty consistent. I have looked for outside validation on this because of my own confusion on this. I wonder what this is going to look like.

Valuing yourself is number one.  Then build family/friends and other personal interactions that value you.  The question might be, why is it so important to me, to get my validation from this one particular individual?  You were single once, right?  I assume you valued yourself then, so I would challenge to what degree this is a 'need' vs something you can get in some other way.

Hmmmm. . .that is a good question. It has been a loong time since I was last single (18 years) so I am going to have to do some digging into my memory bank. Actually, I am trying to figure out what changed in me. I don't feel like that much has changed when looking at the bigger picture. As I think about it, I am wondering if the problem is not so much wanted to be valued as much as it is wanting to not be devalued. I am trying to clarify this line of thinking for myself so that I can have something a little more clear to work with. I think I am wanting validation from this one specific person (my husband) because that is what fits my vision of marriage. If a partner can't value you, or at least not devalue you, then why be in the relationship? I am stuck, maybe not stuck, but am at a place where I am trying to be more realistic. Before finding this site and learning about BPD, I had some kind of naive hope that I might figure out the right equation to getting my needs met. Now that I have this new information, I am having to change how I think about things and how I approach things.

As for giving the kids the best possible life:  This is the single and simple reason I choose to stay, work on skills, work on myself, and be there for my kids.  I genuinely believe they are better of with me in their lives on a daily basis, than in a bitter, contentious 'coparenting' situation with an individual that has a personality disorder (and in my case primary custody would go the the woman, its just the way the system is designed).

Right now, I agree that the kids are better off with both of us in their lives. I have a lot better chance of protecting the kids if we are all living together in the same house. Maybe I am kidding myself but I don't see my husband being contentious about coparenting. Parenting is one area where I think we pretty much agree. How it plays out in practice can be touchy but our theories seem to line up for the most part. My bigger fear is that he would forget about the kids (out of sight, out of mind) and the kids would feel even more rejected by him than they already do. In the grand scheme of things, I see what I am doing now as the better option. But, I am going to continue to work on untangling my own thoughts and feelings so that I don't end up bitter and resentful. I want to nip that in the bud right now and I think the way to do it is to clearly define, for myself, the needs, wants, values and be able to make actual choices rather than be in a situation where I feel like I am stuck or have no choices.

Is this the best for my own happiness?  Yes and no.   I decided what is best is whats best for my kids so yes.  But I had to give up on some of the concepts of what my relationship would be.  My model of what the family dynamics would be ideally.  The idea that kids learn relationships from what gets modeled at home (a hard one to swallow!).  A list of ideals had to be let go (and this is where the stages of grief was useful, knowing that I was grieving the loss of certain ideals and expectations).

I don't want to grieve prematurely.  I know, I am probably being a bit naive but I want all that I can realistically get. At this point, I am not sure what is realistic and what is a pipe dream on my part.

Its working. I have regular discussions with my children about when mom gets 'upset'.  Im trying to transfer as many skills to them as I can on how to manage and handle it.  All the while not undermining or suggesting she doesnt love them.  Of course I have limited solutions myself, but being there in the moment definitely helps.

I have lots of discussions with my older kids. It is sometimes hard though because I try to find ways to answer their questions without saying bad things about him or painting him as a bad person. Sometimes, it is soo hard. Yesterday, my oldest asked me why dad doesn't act more like a parent. She pointed out that I am able to keep it together but dad isn't. I tried to frame it as "dad doesn't have as much experience with kids as I do. I have been around kids and have taken care of kids most of my life."

Thank you for the hug!

[Notwendy]

Yeeter, I've made the same decision with regards to the kids. Sometimes divorce is not the best choice. I understand that on one choice, you teach kids that you walked away from something, and on the other hand, I demonstrated to my kids that I left a career and basically did not stand up for myself in my relationship. I don't think I could have won that one either way.

However, I did look at some families where there was divorce and realized that in some of them, the father remarried into a similar situation, still went off to work and do what he wanted, and left new wife with the child care. These new wives surely would not be invested in my kids, and if they had their own kids, would they still care for them? However, these dads would not be flexible with custody and visitation. Even if they were too busy to be with their kids, they were not about to let their exes have that time. Since most of the child care responsibility was mine, I was not willing to delegate that job to a stranger who would not love my children like I do.

In one case it eventually backfired. The father was so intent on punishing the mother that he would not allow his kids to even see friends or attend events like parties if the mother would be there at the times that he had custody. This resulted in his kids missing out on a lot of fun things that their friends were doing.  His kids grew up to resent him and see time with him as punitive.

[vortex of confusion]

"I want to be valued as a person." - just an observation on this one... .I had to give up wanting this.  Although BPDh will say he loves me and 'couldn't live without me', I rarely feel that it is actually true.  If he truly valued me, he would consider my suggestions equal to his, hear me when I voice my feelings, and support my decisions.  He doesn't.  And it leaves me feeling disrespected, and in turn, undervalued as a partner in the r/s.  I just don't believe anymore that he has the capacity to bring this to the relationship.  It's hard to accept, but I'm trying.   

I am going to have to sit with this. I am wondering if I can reframe it as something other than being "valued". I am trying to think of examples when I felt valued and examples of when I felt devalued and see if I can find ways to rephrase it in such a way that I can figure out whether or not it is something that I can use to set a boundary.

I am thinking of statements like (I am brainstorming a bit.):

-I feel valued when my husband gives me space to go out or do things on my own.

-I feel valued when I ask for something and my husband follows through.

-I feel devalued when I go out with my husband but he acts like being with me is so difficult.

-I feel devalued when I have something that I want to share with my husband but he changes the subject to be about him.

-I feel devalued when my husband over reacts to something small.

-I feel devalued when my husband sits up playing computer games and then complains about being tired. While he was playing his games, I was parenting and spending time with the kids.

-I feel devalued when I am expected to thank him and praise him for anything that he does yet the things that I do go unnoticed.

As for doing what is best for your kids... .I had the philosophy that what was best for me would be the best thing for them because a more grounded, healthy mom would be a better mom, and that was good for them.

I agree with that. Right now, I am trying to honestly assess what is going to help me be a more healthy, grounded mom. I can see lots of different options and possibilities.

The reality was different, tho.  The reality was that the burdens of being a single parent, and his response to the divorce, were just as, if not more, challenging than trying to reach a middle ground with  my ex and 'being a better mom' proved to be a harder challenge than I realized. 

Both of my sisters were single moms and I have seen them struggle. They were able to manage because they got a lot of help from me and my mom. The reality of my situation is that I don't have a mom or sisters to help me. The only help that I get with parenting is from my husband. Even though his contributions aren't as much as I would like them to be, they are still contributions. If he is here, I can run to the store without taking anybody with me. If he wasn't here, I would have to load up all of the kids and take them with me. So, there are some really practical considerations that I am trying to keep in mind.

HIndsight is golden, right?  Just sharing what I've been through in hopes that it helps you look at your situation from all angles.

Thank you so much for your input! It really helps me to get more input. I have been in this little box in my head for so long and am trying to think my way out of it in the best way possible.

[yeeter]

I am going to continue to work on untangling my own thoughts and feelings so that I don't end up bitter and resentful. I want to nip that in the bud right now and I think the way to do it is to clearly define, for myself, the needs, wants, values and be able to make actual choices rather than be in a situation where I feel like I am stuck or have no choices.

Very worthwhile.  And for me, this took a while to come to peace with myself on the decisions made.  You have to own it to prevent the resentment from creeping in.

There is a phrase on this site somewhere... .pain without choice = suffering.  pain with choice = ?.  I cant remember the details, but the point was that you can put up with a LOT if doing so by CHOICE.

Some days I repeat to myself 5 times over... .

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder.

More hugs.  Because well, we all need as many of these as we can get.   

[vortex of confusion]

Very worthwhile.  And for me, this took a while to come to peace with myself on the decisions made.  You have to own it to prevent the resentment from creeping in.

I am trying to own it but haven't yet gotten to that place. I am of the mind that I am staying for now and when the kids are older I want to leave. I don't know if it is possible to truly own my decision if I have one foot in and one foot out.

There is a phrase on this site somewhere... .pain without choice = suffering.  pain with choice = ?.  I cant remember the details, but the point was that you can put up with a LOT if doing so by CHOICE.

Some days I repeat to myself 5 times over... .

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder. 

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder.

More hugs.  Because well, we all need as many of these as we can get.   

Thank you! I am going to have to remember that the next time that I want to run away screaming. LOL.

Here is a great big hug for you!   

[MissyM]

-I will not accept physical abuse.

Absolutely!

-I will not accept verbal abuse. I am still trying to figure out what is verbal abuse and what is him being grumpy. I have been trying to nip some of his grumpiness in the bud by interrupting him and saying stuff like, "Yes, you have a really good point but nobody is going to listen to you when you talk like that." (I did that this morning when he started yelling at one of the kids to try to get a point across. His point was valid but the way he was saying was complete jerk.)

I can identify with that.  Being able to say I value what you have to say but can't talk about it that way has been very empowering for me, as well.

-Long term, I want consistency. I am not expecting perfection but I do need to be able to rely on something even if that something is that he isn't going to do something. Does that make any sense? I am tired of the uncertainty. I don't think I am articulating this very well as I am not certain how I can get this within the relationship.

Well, there will always be a certain amount of uncertainty because I cannot be 100% certain of anything someone else is gong to do.  I can be certain in myself and what I am going to do.  Consistency to me is something different.  95% on target with 5% off target behavior seems ok, as long as I am not talking about using anything in any way (especially other women or drugs).

-I want to be valued as a person. I am not sure what that looks like or what it might entail or even how to get it. And, I have the question: "Why is that necessary?" Valuing and loving myself should be enough. Is wanting to be valued by another person seeking something outside myself or is it okay to want/need/value? I am listing it as all three because I don't know where it might fall within the grand scheme of things.

I think I have had to value myself first.  In recovery my dBPDh is learning to value me and others, this is a big steps and real change.  That is where getting outside of himself has helped our relationship.  I feel more "seen" by my husband than ever before.  That for me is part of intimacy and my dBPDh had not been taught that in his home and is just now learning this.  So I believe it is possible with a BPD that is in recovery, otherwise it is something I had to focus on myself and getting this from others.

[Grey Kitty]

Wants are simply preferences: I want "X" means I prefer "X" over "Y" or over "not X"

If you don't get something you want, you just go on about your way.

Needs are stronger. Without them, you cannot thrive, or even survive. Yeeter did a good job of pointing out that there are needs besides physical ones.

They are what YOU need in YOUR life, and are fairly concrete things.

Values are your beliefs. They are somewhat more abstract, things like truth, kindness, peace, love, discipline, commitment, independence, cooperation, etc...

My belief is that values are nearly universal, and where people disagree and where life really gets interesting is when you have to choose between two (or more) different values when you pick your action.

[vortex of confusion]

Well, there will always be a certain amount of uncertainty because I cannot be 100% certain of anything someone else is gong to do.  I can be certain in myself and what I am going to do.  Consistency to me is something different.  95% on target with 5% off target behavior seems ok, as long as I am not talking about using anything in any way (especially other women or drugs).

I think I would be content with less than that. I want him to be able to follow through with what he says that he is going to do. He is answering and posting ads online again. He says it is because he is lonely and wants somebody to talk to at work. I can understand that. I have asked him in the past why he couldn't join a forum or find other places that would be "safer". I think his intent is okay but I don't think he is taking steps to protect himself from potential slip ups. Several months ago, he said he wanted to focus on his recovery and didn't want to seek out other women, even to talk to, until he was more firm in his recovery. He has made it to step 8. I asked him if he had run this by his sponsor but he says that he probably isn't going to talk to his sponsor about it. I am wondering how things are going to play out if he is doing things that he won't share with his sponsor or therapist. To me, that is the kind of lack of  consistency that I am talking about.

I think I have had to value myself first.  In recovery my dBPDh is learning to value me and others, this is a big steps and real change.  That is where getting outside of himself has helped our relationship.  I feel more "seen" by my husband than ever before.  That for me is part of intimacy and my dBPDh had not been taught that in his home and is just now learning this.  So I believe it is possible with a BPD that is in recovery, otherwise it is something I had to focus on myself and getting this from others.

Thank you for this! I am trying to value myself. I think I have been feeling particularly down because I was off work for a month between semesters. I had my kids value me but I didn't have work at either of my jobs. I still don't feel like my husband is getting outside of himself much. I am trying not to worry about that too much but I do know that, given his current behavior, it isn't likely that he is going to change that much.

[MissyM]

Some days I repeat to myself 5 times over... .

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder.  

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder.  

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder.  

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder.  

I have chosen to stay in a relationship with a person that has a personality disorder.

Yep, keeps me out of the victim mode.  I say something slightly different but it is the same effect. I choose to be in this marriage, I choose to love my husband and I choose to give as much grace as I am able, all of these are just for today.  Tomorrow I could change my mind.  

[MissyM]

He is answering and posting ads online again. He says it is because he is lonely and wants somebody to talk to at work. I can understand that. I have asked him in the past why he couldn't join a forum or find other places that would be "safer". I think his intent is okay but I don't think he is taking steps to protect himself from potential slip ups. Several months ago, he said he wanted to focus on his recovery and didn't want to seek out other women, even to talk to, until he was more firm in his recovery. He has made it to step 8. I asked him if he had run this by his sponsor but he says that he probably isn't going to talk to his sponsor about it. I am wondering how things are going to play out if he is doing things that he won't share with his sponsor or therapist. To me, that is the kind of lack of  consistency that I am talking about.

That is because he is in relapse.  Those things are a no go for a sex addict, not wanting to tell his sponsor and be honest about this behavior is waving red flag.    Please don't be in denial yourself, this is relapse.  As they say in my program, don't paint a red flag white.  Sorry, it is tough.  

[vortex of confusion]

That is because he is in relapse.  Those things are a no go for a sex addict, not wanting to tell his sponsor and be honest about this behavior is waving red flag.    Please don't be in denial yourself, this is relapse.  As they say in my program, don't paint a red flag white.  Sorry, it is tough.  

Thank you for validating me on this! That is what my gut says too but he says that it isn't because he is just emailing them and there is no talk about sex. And, he says that it isn't violating his sobriety because he is not doing it compulsively. He is very aware of what he is doing and there is no compulsion to it (or so he says).

And, he keeps bringing up my behavior and what I am doing and basically saying that if I can do what I am doing then he can do what he is doing. And, when I brought up telling his sponsor and therapist he said that he didn't want to tell them because they would probably say that my behavior (having a lover) is violating HIS sobriety and that they would tell him to make me stop. Hmmmmm. . .

[vortex of confusion]

not wanting to tell his sponsor and be honest about this behavior is waving red flag.

Wanted to update and say that I told him that he should talk to his sponsor about what he is doing. If his sponsor is okay with it, then I am okay with it. I don't want to be the one to hold him accountable for this kind of stuff. I have been doing that for way too long.

This does bring up something else that I value and that is helping others. For most of my life, I have been a bit of a caretaker. Even when I was really little, I could find stuff and figure stuff out. I enjoyed doing it and it never occurred to me that somebody else, especially a spouse, would take advantage of that. I value reciprocity. I wonder if it is possible for a pwBPD to truly reciprocate.

[Grey Kitty]

And, he keeps bringing up my behavior and what I am doing and basically saying that if I can do what I am doing then he can do what he is doing. And, when I brought up telling his sponsor and therapist he said that he didn't want to tell them because they would probably say that my behavior (having a lover) is violating HIS sobriety and that they would tell him to make me stop. Hmmmmm. . .

I would say to him ":)on't avoid telling them on my behalf. This sort of hypothetical statement you think your sponsor or therapist would give me isn't going to do anything. If they believe I should stop, I'll be happy to talk to them about it."

And this does bring me back to another version of a need. Albeit a darker one.

An addict NEEDS a fix.

I've realized that my wife NEEDS a lot of male attention for some reason of her own.

I would also note that needs can change over time. There are many recovered addicts who no longer have that need.

[vortex of confusion]

I would say to him ":)on't avoid telling them on my behalf. This sort of hypothetical statement you think your sponsor or therapist would give me isn't going to do anything. If they believe I should stop, I'll be happy to talk to them about it."

That is more or less what I said. He called his sponsor and his sponsor pretty much said that my behavior is my behavior.

And this does bring me back to another version of a need. Albeit a darker one.

An addict NEEDS a fix.

Very true on that! My husband pretty much said that he gets lonely at work because he can't call and message me any more. I set a boundary on that and now I feel like I am being punished for it. If I had kept him as a FB friend and continued to chat with him all day, then he wouldn't feel lonely at work and wouldn't need to post ads, etc. That isn't what he has said directly but that is how I feel. And, it confirms that I am just a fix. If I won't talk to him all day every day while he is at work, then he will find it elsewhere (I am not even touching the question of how he gets any work done.). That makes me feel that much more objectified. If I won't give him what he wants, then he will get it somewhere else rather than put more effort into his family.

[MissyM]

That makes me feel that much more objectified. If I won't give him what he wantss, then he will get it somewhere else.

This is the selfish thinking of an addict, it makes it all about what others are doing for him.  If he isn't getting what he wants he has a right to act out.  That isn't recovery, that is using you to maintain his "sobriety."  This is why I needed separation from my dBPDh.  He wasn't going to get recovery as long as he could blame me for his choices, even choices that weren't acting out.  The group he is in now doesn't allow that.  It is ok to say that he struggles but if he goes into victim mode, they call him out and hold him accountable.  He still slips in his thinking sometimes but it is 100x better than it used to be.

[vortex of confusion]

This is the selfish thinking of an addict, it makes it all about what others are doing for him.  If he isn't getting what he wants he has a right to act out.  That isn't recovery, that is using you to maintain his "sobriety."  This is why I needed separation from my dBPDh.  He wasn't going to get recovery as long as he could blame me for his choices, even choices that weren't acting out.  The group he is in now doesn't allow that.  It is ok to say that he struggles but if he goes into victim mode, they call him out and hold him accountable.  He still slips in his thinking sometimes but it is 100x better than it used to be.

We did have a good conversation about his ads and such. He talked to his sponsor and was asked a bunch of questions to get him to think. His sponsor wouldn't tell him what to do either but did try to get him to really think about what he is doing. It sounded like his sponsor was trying to hold him accountable without telling him what to do.

I was able to ask him to help me understand how this is going to rebuild trust between us. I tried to validate his feelings of loneliness and even empathized with him and told him that I have those feelings of loneliness too. I asked him how setting up a profile on a site that is more or less a dating site is going to help him stay sober and resist temptations. If his intent is to find somebody (purely platonic) to talk to via email and stave off some of the loneliness, then there are a lot of other options that are much healthier and are not as prone to temptation.

I tried to bring up options such as discussion forums that are centered around a particular topic. I said I wanted to understand how it was a good idea. I tried to take it out of the realm of control or jealousy and tried to pose it as, "Even if our marriage isn't going to work out, I am still your friend. If any of my friends were in your situation, I would question them and tell them that it probably isn't a good idea." And I reminded him that he has only been sober for a couple of months and asked him if he had thought about what he is going to do if he is tempted by these other females. And I told him that I want to see him succeed but I don't think that deliberately putting himself in a position where he is likely to be tempted is going to help him succeed. I asked lots of questions and tried to validate him but I did not once tell him what to do. I kept putting it back on him that it is HIS decision to make.

[waverider]

Awareness of choice converts resentment into frustration.

Frustration is recognition of issues>recognition leads to potential resolutions

Resentment is a relationship killer>resentment leads to hopelessness and giving up

[waverider]

When it comes to Needs , Wants and Values pwBPD have difficulty separating these. Prolonged exposure to someone who has blurred lines in this area causes us to question our differentiation of our own needs, wants and values...

Determining these is one of our foundation tasks. As these then go one to form our choices of boundaries.

Needs determine boundaries.

Wants determine goals

Values determine how we conduct ourselves.

[123Phoebe]

I would say to him ":)on't avoid telling them on my behalf. This sort of hypothetical statement you think your sponsor or therapist would give me isn't going to do anything. If they believe I should stop, I'll be happy to talk to them about it."

That is more or less what I said. He called his sponsor and his sponsor pretty much said that my behavior is my behavior.

I forget, do you have a sponsor of your own?