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Author Topic: Needs, wants, & values  (Read 1200 times)
vortex of confusion
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« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2015, 08:53:55 AM »

I forget, do you have a sponsor of your own?

No, I don't. If I had one, I would definitely be talking to them about this stuff.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2015, 09:53:39 AM »

I forget, do you have a sponsor of your own?

No, I don't. If I had one, I would definitely be talking to them about this stuff.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Do you  have any regular 12-step meetings you attend? That is where you are likely to find a sponsor!

There are a bunch of 12-step programs not focused primarily on the addiction, but on the supporting the addicted partner (Al-Anon, CoDA, Emotions Anonymous, I suspect one for spouses of sex addicts... .) My take is that the character of the meeting is a lot more important than the official sanctioned group it is in.

Consider expanding your search.
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2015, 09:59:25 AM »

Do you  have any regular 12-step meetings you attend? That is where you are likely to find a sponsor!

I've been to a few COSA meetings. I should probably look around and see if I can find another group that might be more to my liking.
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« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2015, 10:05:49 AM »

Excerpt
I've been to a few COSA meetings. I should probably look around and see if I can find another group that might be more to my liking.

Took me a while to find one I liked, oddly several therapists now tell me that is  the healthiest group.  It is more focused on step work and not on victimization.  Very much about how we can affect our own lives.  Now I can go to any meeting and take what I need and leave the rest.
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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2015, 12:30:52 AM »

An addict NEEDS a fix.

I've realized that my wife NEEDS a lot of male attention for some reason of her own.

I would also note that needs can change over time. There are many recovered addicts who no longer have that need.

An addict has a NEED that he/she needs to meet.

I find like Vortex that many times, my SO will only see that there is only one way to meet that need:

going outside the relationship for _____________________ .

I am seeing the B&W thinking in action there.

I have found myself repeating many times 'Yes, I realize you need to make meaningful connections, and to make new friends, since you say you want to stop seeing your former sex partners or stop meeting the kind of people who are looking for that old type of connection. Why not try to meet people who are engaged in a similar lifepath than the one you are chosing?'

I have found that it takes a long time for her to 'get to it' for herself.  It seems to help if there is a consistency of message from other key people in their recovery, like with the sponsor, or with a support group buddy, or a therapist.

In her case, she will go through some sort of elimination process of all the worst options first. And it will grate on my nerves, of course. That's why for me it's so important to have almost daily talks with my own support people. Same as MissyM, it took me a while to find my own.

I have been to COSA meetings in my area and it was interesting for the accountability part, I agree. But I was not comfortable with some aspects of it. Like the religious tone and the co-addiction concepts did not work for me.  I discovered another group called POSA (Partners of SA). Based on an interpersonal trauma approach for the partner's healing, non-denominational, and with a series of steps also, but more open to include different modalities.

It's a pity that group stopped. Maybe there was an issue with the locality in my town (large city). But I also remembered feeling at times that there was a fair amount of new drop-in people, and the development part into deeper healing and accountability for more experienced members was less clear. This was a new type of support group and we were learing how to do it as we went.  //Actually, you can start one in your own town if you like. There is a start up kit on their main website (google POSARC).//  Thing is, for our group, we would have needed to start some sort of sub-group for the more advanced members. We chose instead to buddy up with each other by personal affinities, and to hold each other accountable for our own progress. A bit like you all posting on this board.

Another type of support that did me good was a small group therapy for partners of SAs, facilitated by a CSAT. This was the best for me. Very focused on building self-esteem, skills, developing more self-awareness, being accountable, and at same time, with the advantage of sharing and learning from others.

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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2015, 12:44:17 AM »

Prolonged exposure to someone who has blurred lines in this area causes us to question our differentiation of our own needs, wants and values...



Yes.  It's soo true.

I was talking to one of my buddies today, and we were just talking about that. She was saying it's important to surround ourselves with accountable people, and to keep in close touch with our support people.

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« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2015, 03:18:41 AM »

I've been to a couple of 12 step groups and they can be different. Some members are not religious. The original AA group built the steps on some spiritual principles, and there is a Christian bent to some of the wording, but the 12 steps have been adapated to other religions and also to those who are not. I think it is possible to adapt the wording to whatever it means to you. Some people attributed the idea of a "higher power" to something they decided worked for them. The idea was to decide that we can not control everything. Part of addictions and co-dependency is a form of control of others. Once we let go of the idea that we have control over others, we can focus on ourselves- and it is the shift of this focus that gets us working on ourselves.

The spiriual principles of the steps are also universal ones-can be found in other disciplines- psychology. They help with shame, resentment, fears and other aspects that concern us. So, they can work independently of religion. I think the wording of the Big Book- how he chose to say it is how he sees it, yet, the more I learn from it, the more universal it is in that it is so applicable to people of different backgrounds. 

It took me a while going to groups to even begin to feel the benefit. I was also pretty uncomfortable at first. It felt very foreign to me. I don't think I identified with some ideas or issues, but in time, I saw an underlying pattern to addictions and the non and how they interacted- regardless of some terms. Also you will find people with a range of problems at groups. Some can be quite "recovered" and some not at all. Still, some can be an inspiration. I found the adult child groups (ACOA) to be helpful as it did go into childhood issues, and it applies to children of dysfunctional homes as well as any addictions.
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« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2015, 08:10:17 AM »

COSA has evolved and most are now adapting to include the trauma model and drop the cosex addict talk (I never used that always said codependent to a sex addict).  As for religious bent, we have many different religions and lifestyles (some gay and some in open relationships) in my main group.  One of the first groups I tried was overly religious (really pushy about Christianity) and everyone said cosex addict, that is why I suggest trying a few.  There is also Sanon and if in Houston Milton Magness has a group (although he is very religious) and I have heard good things about it.  I also go to Alanon because no one pushes detachment more and I really needed it.  I agree that my small therapy group for spouses has been one of the best things I did but meetings, individual therapy and marital therapy have also been way up there.  What didn't work was talking to bitter people that pushed up my resentment level and expecting that if my husband would just do the work that we would be fine.
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2015, 10:27:36 AM »

I find like Vortex that many times, my SO will only see that there is only one way to meet that need:

going outside the relationship for _____________________ .

I am seeing the B&W thinking in action there.

I think it is reasonable to go outside the relationship for some things. What those things are is something that should be negotiated between the two people involved in the relationship. The problem is that it is difficult to negotiate with somebody that will go along with whatever and then go back on what the agreement was.

Excerpt
I have found myself repeating many times 'Yes, I realize you need to make meaningful connections, and to make new friends, since you say you want to stop seeing your former sex partners or stop meeting the kind of people who are looking for that old type of connection. Why not try to meet people who are engaged in a similar lifepath than the one you are chosing?'

What I find interesting/funny/weird is that he has connections with people in real life. He doesn't like talking to them for some reason. He talks about how he turns his chat off for some of his friends because they "talk too much" yet he leave chat on for certain women. He tries to pose it to me as being lonely or wanting connection but, if that were the case, then it wouldn't really matter what gender the person is. And I know that he has female friends from his online games that he chats with in different places. To me, it looks like he is looking for a specific type of connection (one with potential for 'other' stuff) but is unable or unwilling to see that.

Excerpt
I have found that it takes a long time for her to 'get to it' for herself.  It seems to help if there is a consistency of message from other key people in their recovery, like with the sponsor, or with a support group buddy, or a therapist.

Even if he is surrounded by consistency, it seems like he still tries to distort reality and rationalize things so that they fit his perception of what is okay and what isn't. So many things leave me scratching my head because I will think that I know something or have my mind wrapped around something and then he will change something and I will walk away feeling really confused.

Excerpt
I have been to COSA meetings in my area and it was interesting for the accountability part, I agree. But I was not comfortable with some aspects of it. Like the religious tone and the co-addiction concepts did not work for me.  I discovered another group called POSA (Partners of SA). Based on an interpersonal trauma approach for the partner's healing, non-denominational, and with a series of steps also, but more open to include different modalities.

I am not sure if it was unique to the meeting I went to or what but I walked away from that meeting feeling like everything was somehow my fault. If I wasn't codependent, then my husband wouldn't have this problem. I am not sure if there are any POSA meetings in my area. If it is associated with POSARC, then I don't think there are. I am on their email list because they put out some really good articles and such about sex addiction.

Excerpt
Another type of support that did me good was a small group therapy for partners of SAs, facilitated by a CSAT. This was the best for me. Very focused on building self-esteem, skills, developing more self-awareness, being accountable, and at same time, with the advantage of sharing and learning from others. 

I looked for the "right" group for a while but gave up. I am trying to work up to being in that place again.
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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2015, 11:30:33 AM »

Excerpt
I have found myself repeating many times 'Yes, I realize you need to make meaningful connections, and to make new friends, since you say you want to stop seeing your former sex partners or stop meeting the kind of people who are looking for that old type of connection. Why not try to meet people who are engaged in a similar lifepath than the one you are chosing?'

What I find interesting/funny/weird is that he has connections with people in real life. He doesn't like talking to them for some reason. He talks about how he turns his chat off for some of his friends because they "talk too much" yet he leave chat on for certain women. He tries to pose it to me as being lonely or wanting connection but, if that were the case, then it wouldn't really matter what gender the person is. And I know that he has female friends from his online games that he chats with in different places. To me, it looks like he is looking for a specific type of connection (one with potential for 'other' stuff) but is unable or unwilling to see that.

I've been thinking about that sort of issue with my wife, and had a discussion with somebody else who has an ex; Both of them shared some sort of NEED to flirt.

Can you spend a little time thinking about exactly what your husband's NEED is?

I don't think your husband is stumbling based on his need to have a deep emotionally intimate connection. He could get that chatting with friends as easily as chatting with available women. He's making a deliberate choice, because it is meeting some need in him. (And in your H's case, he's not self-aware enough for you to believe most of what he says about it!)

What my wife does is she projects that she is "available" to guys. I can't put my finger on what she does, but the result is clear and consistent. They have interest. They flirt with her. She flirts back. (I'm sure she initiates flirting many times) This feeds something that she NEEDS to have fed. It wouldn't happen so often and so consistently, and with so many guys if it wasn't this way.

What she does next runs the gamut:

Lose interest and get away from the guy.

Have an emotional affair.

Not even be interested enough in the guy to have much interest to lose, and try to pry herself loose ASAP.

Keep the friendship, but shut down the flirting.

Start a serious long-term relationship with the guy.

Enjoy the flirting, and keep it at that level. [With some guys it is almost like a sport!]

Have a short fling with the guy and move on.

She's done all these things, several of them multiple times. To me this shows that her compulsive need is about the fishing, not about what she does after she hooks one. She seems to display executive control over this part of the decision; The different choices she makes appear to be consistent with the guy/situation in question each time. [The question of how consistent her choices are with my needs in my marriage is elsewhere all over this board!]

VOC, when you look at your H's behavior, which parts seem like a compulsive/addicted pattern? Are there parts where he seems to have good executive control, and make choices appropriate for the situation?
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2015, 01:38:07 PM »

I've been thinking about that sort of issue with my wife, and had a discussion with somebody else who has an ex; Both of them shared some sort of NEED to flirt.

Can you spend a little time thinking about exactly what your husband's NEED is?

Hmmmm. . .I have been trying to think about what his need it but can't quite put my finger on it. I have tried to ask him what his needs are and pay attention to see if it is a need that I can realistically fill without creating resentments or sacrificing myself. When I talk to him about it, I am not getting that much insight because of the conflicting information. On one hand, he says that it is purely platonic and that he needs to talk to somebody when he is feeling lonely while at work. I get that part. What I am trying to understand is why it needs to be a female and why he is using dating sites to find them. I really do understand the need to have friends and connections outside of the relationship. Both of us have become very isolated over the years so I can really empathize with him about that.

Excerpt
I don't think your husband is stumbling based on his need to have a deep emotionally intimate connection. He could get that chatting with friends as easily as chatting with available women. He's making a deliberate choice, because it is meeting some need in him. (And in your H's case, he's not self-aware enough for you to believe most of what he says about it!)

In the past, I would put my doubts aside when things didn't quite add up. Right now, things are not adding up. On one hand, he is telling me that he is looking for platonic friends. At the same time, he is putting on his profile that he is in a poly relationship and is looking for other people that are poly/open. And, he has told me about discussions he has had where he has had open discussions with these other people about the status of the different relationships. If his true intent is to find platonic friends, then why does the status of their relationship matter. I know that my husband tends to relate to women better than men so I understand wanting to have platonic female friends. I get frustrated because:

1. He seems so unbelievably impatient. He seems to think that being sober and abstaining from sexual behaviors means that he is going to have to be celibate for the rest of his life.

2. The mixed signals. I don't understand why he thinks dating sites are the best places to find "friends". It is illogical to think that somebody on a dating site is going to be content with just being friends.

3. Why am I not enough? So many of the things that he claims to want and be looking for are things that I have tried to do for him and give him but he has rejected it at different times over the years.

4. Now that I am setting boundaries and not chasing him, he is now wanting the very things that he has rejected for years. For example, he tells me that he wants to cuddle with me and misses the touch. Frankly, I don't miss it because I tried to approach him for that for years and it was half azzed or he would turn his back to me.

5. I feel like this is all my fault because I am not giving in and going back to jumping through hoops.

Excerpt
What my wife does is she projects that she is "available" to guys. I can't put my finger on what she does, but the result is clear and consistent. They have interest. They flirt with her. She flirts back. (I'm sure she initiates flirting many times) This feeds something that she NEEDS to have fed. It wouldn't happen so often and so consistently, and with so many guys if it wasn't this way.

The stuff with him seeking women online only started a year or two ago but there are some definite patterns of him getting sucked in using the story that we are in an open relationship. He tends to use my behavior as justification for him doing whatever it is that he wants to do. I have tried to lay out the facts and the conditions that I want met:

-Complete honesty

-I want him to be in full recovery

-I want to work on rebuilding trust between us (I don't understand how him jumping back to answering and posting ads is going to help rebuild any sort of trust.)

-I want his outside activities to not interfere with our family life.

Excerpt
What she does next runs the gamut:

Lose interest and get away from the guy.

Have an emotional affair.

Not even be interested enough in the guy to have much interest to lose, and try to pry herself loose ASAP.

Keep the friendship, but shut down the flirting.

Start a serious long-term relationship with the guy.

Enjoy the flirting, and keep it at that level. [With some guys it is almost like a sport!]

Have a short fling with the guy and move on.

Hmmmm. . .I am going to have to think about his patterns. For the most part, there is only one person that he has talked to for any length of time. I am okay with him talking to her. That adds to my confusion because he can talk to me or her or any number of other people. From where I sit, it seems like he wants somebody that he can be in almost constant contact with. If I bring that up, he will tell me that the person he is emailing is okay with the emails being once in a while when both parties get a chance. If he was truly okay with that, then how come it isn't enough for him to talk to me or his other female friend or some of his other FB friends? That doesn't add up for me. He is either in denial himself or he is lying to me again.

In most cases, the women disappear on him before he ever has a chance to do much with them. It seems like the ones that hang around are bad news.

Excerpt
VOC, when you look at your H's behavior, which parts seem like a compulsive/addicted pattern? Are there parts where he seems to have good executive control, and make choices appropriate for the situation?

In all honesty, I am not sure. It is difficult for me to tell because he will present things as "normal". I can only get a glimpse into the compulsive/addicted pattern after it plays out for a while. It seems like things will start out innocent enough but then turns compulsive somewhere along the way.

During his disclosure to me, I found out that there was a lot more compulsive stuff going on than I realized. There were times when things seemed off between us but I didn't know why. Now that I know the level of fantasy that he was immersed in some things make a little more sense. I feel like the only way to truly know what is compulsive/addictive is to get inside his head. I really have a difficult time trusting my own judgment on this because, to me, it seems like anything other than working on his recovery or spending time with his kids is going to potentially set him on the wrong track. He says he wants to build emotional intimacy with me but turns around and starts posting ads again. It doesn't add up and I think it contributes to his pattern of saying one thing, sticking to it until he gets bored/impatient, and then changing his mind.

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Notwendy
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« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2015, 01:47:13 PM »

GK for people who don't have a good sense of self, and who need constant validation outside themselves, it would seem that flirting is a way to get that. For one, it retains the sense of fantasy/not real- she can be her image of who she thinks she is. The attention is obvious, along with the validation that she is attractive and desirable.

I wouldn't say that I am the best example of someone with good self esteem, but I don't flirt and don't much like it if someone does with me. I know I am not super young, but still appealing. I think I could be successful flirting in my age group if I wanted to, but I don't want to. My mother has been a flirt her whole life ( not so much at her age) but she was extremely attractive and men were always hitting on her. I thought it was a bit creepy. Maybe that's why I don't do it.

However, I think it is a huge validation of desirablility. Some men do it too. I don't think it is right for your wife to flirt like that if it isn't good for your relationship, but I can see why she would not want to give it up if it makes her feel good about herself.

Likewise for Vortex. The thrill of the chase, the fantasy relationship is so much easier than the committed one. The internet women aren't real. You are, and that is so much more of a threat to an insecure person.

Addicts use all kinds of things to make themselves feel better and escape from their inner pain. Including people.
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2015, 03:01:41 PM »

GK for people who don't have a good sense of self, and who need constant validation outside themselves, it would seem that flirting is a way to get that. For one, it retains the sense of fantasy/not real- she can be her image of who she thinks she is. The attention is obvious, along with the validation that she is attractive and desirable.

I can't speak for GK but I can speak to my situation. I understand that my husband's behavior stems from some kind of unmet need. I think it is human nature to live in such a way that all of your needs are met. In my situation, it is me trying to figure out how in the heck my husband's needs intersect (or not) with my needs. IF my partner could clearly state that he wants and needs the validation of other women to make him feel more studly, then I might feel differently. Up until very recently, my husband would tell me that I met all of his needs. He tells me that he loves me and that I am his top priority, blah, blah, blah, yet when put to the task, he can't seem to behave in ways that are consistent with what he says. On a theoretical level, I can understand what is being said about the attention being obvious, etc.

On a very personal level, it hurts to think that I have spent all of these years pining for my husband and chasing him and trying to build him up yet it isn't enough. It hurts to think that he can't put some of his needs aside long enough for us to try to get to a point of stability or agreement or something. I have a difficult time focusing on what I need and want if I spend too much focusing on him.

In my mind, the reason for looking at patterns and identifying things that are going on with him is to help me figure out where I need to set boundaries. Personally, I am not bothered by flirting. In my opinion, a little flirting doesn't hurt anybody. The problem is when somebody is unable to draw a line and say, "Flirting is where is stops."

Excerpt
However, I think it is a huge validation of desirablility. Some men do it too. I don't think it is right for your wife to flirt like that if it isn't good for your relationship, but I can see why she would not want to give it up if it makes her feel good about herself.

Hmmm. . .I have never really seen flirting as a validation of desirability. At least I don't recall thinking about it that way. Sometimes, flirting is fun bantering with sexual overtones that has no meaning at all. I don't think GK is asking his wife to give up the flirting. Really, I am at a point where I feel like, "Who cares about whether or not my husband is being validated? Who cares if what he is doing is making him feel good? Why does any of that even matter? I am trying to figure out what is best for ME. I am trying to figure out how his behavior fits into what I want and need." If I take his behavior out of the context of our relationship, a lot of it makes perfect sense. I am trying to understand it, not to excuse it or feel better about it, but so that I can make decisions for ME.

Excerpt
Likewise for Vortex. The thrill of the chase, the fantasy relationship is so much easier than the committed one. The internet women aren't real. You are, and that is so much more of a threat to an insecure person.

I had to chuckle a bit when I read this. I know all about the thrill of the chase. I have been chasing my husband for years. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2015, 04:38:25 PM »

Your demarcation lines to define your wants, needs and values need to be engraved in rock. Once you start trying to take into account the apparent wants, needs, and values of someone you have no control over, in our cases a pwBPD, you are trying to draw these lines in shifting sands. They move and risk ultimately fading away.
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« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2015, 04:46:41 PM »

Notwendy,
GK for people who don't have a good sense of self, and who need constant validation outside themselves, it would seem that flirting is a way to get that.

This sounds very plausible for my wife. I'm sure it is coming from sort of unmet need, like VOC said.

If my wife decides that she wants to change her flirting behavior, that it is causing problems in her life and she doesn't want those consequences, then it will benefit HER a great deal to figure out why she needs to do this.

What is important FOR ME is that I notice that she DOES have a NEED to flirt, and that I determine if this really is a problem for me, or not. The question of why is interesting, but has no direct impact on my life... .especially since I've decided that it isn't a problem for her to flirt.


VOC, you express uncertainty about what your husband's compulsive needs are.

I think most of your confusion comes from believing what he says about it!    

Really! He has very little self-awareness and understanding. While I would believe he feels the way he's speaking about at the time he says it, I wouldn't assume that what he says about this is true just because he says it. (Nor would I assume it is false!)

My conclusion about my wife is not something she's told me. It is mostly my observation of her behavior over the last ~decade. I will add that she has told me that she thinks flirting is fun and harmless... .even that she wishes I did more of it. Her words help confirm it.

If I observe that she seems to do one thing very consistently... .I can conclude that there is a reason she does it--and she is getting some need met by doing it.

My suggestion is to look at your husband's behavior flirting/chasing women online/attempting poly relationships. Make a list of all their names, and note what the arc of the relationship was--how they met, what it built up to, how long it lasted, how it ended, etc.

See if some parts always or usually happen. Or was there a shift from one pattern to another one? Are there other parts that seem random and varied?

It is possible that you will notice that the compulsive parts aren't really the ones that bother you so much, which is what I've found with my wife.
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« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2015, 04:58:21 PM »

Notwendy,
GK for people who don't have a good sense of self, and who need constant validation outside themselves, it would seem that flirting is a way to get that.

This sounds very plausible for my wife. I'm sure it is coming from sort of unmet need, like VOC said.

If my wife decides that she wants to change her flirting behavior, that it is causing problems in her life and she doesn't want those consequences, then it will benefit HER a great deal to figure out why she needs to do this.

What is important FOR ME is that I notice that she DOES have a NEED to flirt, and that I determine if this really is a problem for me, or not. The question of why is interesting, but has no direct impact on my life... .especially since I've decided that it isn't a problem for her to flirt.


VOC, you express uncertainty about what your husband's compulsive needs are.

I think most of your confusion comes from believing what he says about it!    

Really! He has very little self-awareness and understanding. While I would believe he feels the way he's speaking about at the time he says it, I wouldn't assume that what he says about this is true just because he says it. (Nor would I assume it is false!)

My conclusion about my wife is not something she's told me. It is mostly my observation of her behavior over the last ~decade. I will add that she has told me that she thinks flirting is fun and harmless... .even that she wishes I did more of it. Her words help confirm it.

If I observe that she seems to do one thing very consistently... .I can conclude that there is a reason she does it--and she is getting some need met by doing it.

My suggestion is to look at your husband's behavior flirting/chasing women online/attempting poly relationships. Make a list of all their names, and note what the arc of the relationship was--how they met, what it built up to, how long it lasted, how it ended, etc.

See if some parts always or usually happen. Or was there a shift from one pattern to another one? Are there other parts that seem random and varied?

It is possible that you will notice that the compulsive parts aren't really the ones that bother you so much, which is what I've found with my wife.

A pwBPDs  reasons and beliefs for their behavior can seriously confuse our own ability to believe our own perceptions. It's all smoke and mirrors. The truth may be hidden in there somewhere but it is well obscured
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« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2015, 06:32:21 PM »

VOC, you express uncertainty about what your husband's compulsive needs are.

I think most of your confusion comes from believing what he says about it!    

I am not sure that my confusion stems from believing what he says. My confusion stems from the fact that I feel like his compulsive need has nothing to do with sex or women or anything like that. He gets caught up in his computer games too. He gets up in the morning and the first thing he does is sits down and plays his computer games. Before we had kids, it was porn. His pattern was to get up in the morning and drink his coffee and look at porn and um take care of himself. Now, he gets up, drinks his coffee, and plays his computer games.

If I am 100% honest with myself, I feel like his compulsive need is to avoid reality. I feel like his compulsive need is to escape being a husband and a father.

Excerpt
Really! He has very little self-awareness and understanding. While I would believe he feels the way he's speaking about at the time he says it, I wouldn't assume that what he says about this is true just because he says it. (Nor would I assume it is false!)

I can neither confirm nor deny anything.  Smiling (click to insert in post)  I don't know if he lacks awareness or if he is too afraid to tell me some of these hard things.

Excerpt
My conclusion about my wife is not something she's told me. It is mostly my observation of her behavior over the last ~decade. I will add that she has told me that she thinks flirting is fun and harmless... .even that she wishes I did more of it. Her words help confirm it.

That is a bit of a sore spot with me. My husband doesn't really flirt with me and it irks me that he can flirt with these other women and have some really racy conversations with them but he can't seem to do it with me. I used to flirt with him and brush up against him and do all sorts of things to let him know that I found him attractive and wanted him. He didn't return the favor.

Excerpt
My suggestion is to look at your husband's behavior flirting/chasing women online/attempting poly relationships. Make a list of all their names, and note what the arc of the relationship was--how they met, what it built up to, how long it lasted, how it ended, etc.

Hmmm. . .

-I chased one of them away when I emailed her and told her that he was a sex addict.

-I chased another one away by simply emailing her and comparing stories of what he had told her versus what was really going on. She was pretty cool and we are now FB friends.

-There was one that he talked to a little and then went and met and went and did stuff in the woods. I don't think he ever talked to her again after that.

-One he went and had lunch with and I think he cut it off not long after that.

-There have been a couple that he emailed for a short period of time that up and disappeared.

Some of them, he has sent them messages and then deleted his email account so that they could never contact him again. Most of the time, he did that after I started questioning him about his intentions and whether or not he was being honest with himself and these other women. Any time I would try to work out the poly aspect of things, he would throw a bit of a tantrum and then remove his ads, get rid of the women, and delete his email account. I have no idea how many disposable email addresses he has or has had over the years.

Excerpt
See if some parts always or usually happen. Or was there a shift from one pattern to another one? Are there other parts that seem random and varied?

The overall pattern seems to be one of avoidance.

Excerpt
It is possible that you will notice that the compulsive parts aren't really the ones that bother you so much, which is what I've found with my wife.

Hmmmm. . .I think that may be something to think about. IF I thought that he was acting out of compulsivity on some of this stuff, I think it would be easier to deal with. I feel like what I have a problem with is the overall lack of commitment and the overall feeling that he is trying to avoid being a father and a husband.
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« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2015, 07:33:04 PM »

Avoidance of responsibility and accountability is at the root of most BPD motivations. It is instinctive, I doubt they are even conscious of it a lot of the time.

Even if avoidance is the hardest route. As you say is almost a compulsive need rather than just being idle or lazy about lifting their game.
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« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2015, 09:16:15 PM »

I feel like what I have a problem with is the overall lack of commitment and the overall feeling that he is trying to avoid being a father and a husband.

Yup, I think you nailed it right there.

It does sound like he likes to flirt online... .I'd also note that any time you questioned him about his activities he totally dumped them, deleted the email account, etc.

If he really wanted some kind of r/s with them, he could have stayed in contact or gotten back in contact. Or just defied you about it. (Go re-read my story about my wife and ask me how I know!)

And he didn't do that with any of them.

He won't commit to any of these women he chases after either.

And the part that really hurts you--that he acts attracted and flirtatious with them, but not with you... .I'd bet that if he had any sort of real intimacy (or whatever you call the level of intimacy he achieves with you!) with them, that would evaporate pretty quickly.
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« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2015, 09:27:54 PM »

Excerpt
And the part that really hurts you--that he acts attracted and flirtatious with them, but not with you... .I'd bet that if he had any sort of real intimacy (or whatever you call the level of intimacy he achieves with you!) with them, that would evaporate pretty quickly.

This is 1,000% true for my dBPDh.  He didn't ever really want someone else.  He just wanted to feel better, to erase the feeling of being inadequate and unlovable.  If women showed an interest in him, then it would prove he had worth.  The women he had sex with were prostitutes or one time with a hook up that sounds like an SA  None of it made him feel good, it would just momentarily give him a relief from the pain and emptiness he felt.  Learning to fill those things with healthy activities is the challenge for a recovering addict. 
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« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2015, 10:04:07 PM »

Oh, and what I wrote is what my dBPDh has told me and not just what I think was going on, even though I believe that is right.
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« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2015, 10:04:32 PM »

Its the endless pursuit of validation in a futile attempt to fill that black hole that is their own sense of worthlessness.

Which is just one branch of basic neediness. A lack of values linked to an inability to to separate wants from needs
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« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2015, 11:44:44 PM »



It appears like this issue of intimacy has to do with not being intimate with each other, within our relationship, or not enough.

Some of the dilemma with SA is maybe like it's for a legitimate need, but no one knows how to re-connect and re-build that trust, so the outside sources might not be needed after all. Thus the need for therapy and learning new skills, etc...

It seems to me that my SO has a very deep need to connect with people. She does have that need to connect with me too, but it's more complicated, considering that she knows she has hurt me. I the same, for myself with my anger displays, and sometimes controling ways. But in general, I see that there is this need to connect and be seen by each other. That's like in any human relationships.

Another thing is with labeling. With the labels of BPD and nons, sometimes, I seem to feed our talking in circles, because of maybe my expectations of what I can expect of her are based on what I read else where. Where is she, truely, will I know it? And does that change over time?

In another post I read today, I was reminded that the disorder is a spectrum disorder. Some people are at the low functioning end of the spectrum, and some people are at the high functioning end of it. With this in mind, one would think that it would make a lot of sense to work on behaviors which affect us, personally.

I think for me it's the intimacy I miss the most with my SO. I see that like you all, it bothers me that she would feel like she can have it with someone else but not with me.  (Not that I beleive she has the same type of intimacy as I have in mind with her affairs). The compulsion to go get the connectivity outside kind of makes me feel like I don't count.

Where to start?... .I totally agree with Vortex on seeing her H as he being avoiding being a father and a loving husband. 

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« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2015, 11:53:59 PM »

Excerpt
I think for me it's the intimacy I miss the most with my SO. I see that like you all, it bothers me that she would feel like she can have it with someone else but not with me.  (Not that I beleive she has the same type of intimacy as I have in mind with her affairs). The compulsion to go get the connectivity outside kind of makes me feel like I don't count.

Where to start?

Hmm, did you ever really have intimacy with her? Or was it just intensity?  I know SAs confuse intensity with intimacy and partners can too.  I don't think my dBPDh and I ever had real intimacy until now.  By that I mean that he really saw me, the good and the bad not an all white or all black.  Where are you in the process?  The attachment couples work is amazing once the SA has some recovery going and the spouse has done some healing.
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« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2015, 11:56:45 PM »

It does sound like he likes to flirt online... .I'd also note that any time you questioned him about his activities he totally dumped them, deleted the email account, etc.

He would rather delete the stuff and dump them so as to avoid having to have any kind of real conversation with me. It was about avoidance. I told him this evening that I felt like his choice to do the online thing is hurting the progress that we were making. If he wants to rebuild trust, then he is going to have to stick to his word and not change things on me midstream. I had to stop myself at one point because he gave the excuse that he didn't remember him agreeing to not post online ads and he didn't remember me saying that I would like for him to wait on doing anything like that until we rebuilt some of the trust. Even if we can't work on our relationship directly, we can at least work on not doing any more damage and I feel like him making this choice damages the relationship further.

Excerpt
If he really wanted some kind of r/s with them, he could have stayed in contact or gotten back in contact. Or just defied you about it. (Go re-read my story about my wife and ask me how I know!)

He has only stayed in contact with one of them. He has defied me on a few things. Really, I think it boils down to him choosing whichever course of action is easiest.


Excerpt
And the part that really hurts you--that he acts attracted and flirtatious with them, but not with you... .I'd bet that if he had any sort of real intimacy (or whatever you call the level of intimacy he achieves with you!) with them, that would evaporate pretty quickly.

BINGO! He will occasionally say very flattering things to me but he doesn't flirt with me. Half the time, he doesn't even seem to notice me. I think a lot of things would evaporate pretty quickly if he put as much effort into me as he does that stuff (whether it is his games, flirting with women, or whatever his latest obsession is).
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« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2015, 11:57:57 PM »

Oh, and what I wrote is what my dBPDh has told me and not just what I think was going on, even though I believe that is right.

I know that I have told mine that I have felt like I wasn't enough for him and he has said straight up that nothing is ever enough for him, especially when he is in a period of acting out.
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« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2015, 12:06:11 AM »

Excerpt
I think for me it's the intimacy I miss the most with my SO. I see that like you all, it bothers me that she would feel like she can have it with someone else but not with me.  (Not that I beleive she has the same type of intimacy as I have in mind with her affairs). The compulsion to go get the connectivity outside kind of makes me feel like I don't count.

Where to start?

Hmm, did you ever really have intimacy with her? Or was it just intensity?  I know SAs confuse intensity with intimacy and partners can too.  I don't think my dBPDh and I ever had real intimacy until now.  By that I mean that he really saw me, the good and the bad not an all white or all black.  Where are you in the process?  The attachment couples work is amazing once the SA has some recovery going and the spouse has done some healing.

The question about whether or not we ever really had intimacy is one that I ask myself all the time. In my case, I don't think it was intensity because our relationship has never really been one of those that were intense. If anything, I went into the relationship with my husband because I thought he was safe. I feel like my husband has always painted me white. I know I am a pain in the butt but hardly ever gives me any kind of feedback that is worthwhile. It is like I can do no wrong, which is confusing because I know there have been times when I have tried to deliberately irritate him or get him to react to something.

Your point about the spouse having time to heal is something that I need to remember. No matter what becomes of our relationship, I need some time to heal and I can't heal if he is already trying to find new online "friends". I feel like it has set me back quite a bit and it is going to be that much more difficult to even consider any possibility other than leaving as soon as possible.
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« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2015, 12:13:12 AM »

Excerpt
And the part that really hurts you--that he acts attracted and flirtatious with them, but not with you... .I'd bet that if he had any sort of real intimacy (or whatever you call the level of intimacy he achieves with you!) with them, that would evaporate pretty quickly.

BINGO! He will occasionally say very flattering things to me but he doesn't flirt with me. Half the time, he doesn't even seem to notice me. I think a lot of things would evaporate pretty quickly if he put as much effort into me as he does that stuff (whether it is his games, flirting with women, or whatever his latest obsession is).

I agree--many problems in your r/s would evaporate if he put that kind of effort into being with you or your r/s, instead of avoiding it with whatever obsession he's chasing.

That would be a HUGE change on his part, and the result of a lot of personal growth.

My point was that the attention he showers on these online women is only sustainable for him AS HE IS TODAY because he doesn't have a real r/s with any real intimacy or real connection. *IF* he were to try to sustain something with them... .he would blow it, shut it down, lose the flirty attention and interest, delete the email account, etc.

The story you are telling of him points at somebody who has very little capacity for real intimacy.

You are seeing the whole picture. When he's just met and started flirting with some woman online, he can fake something more... .for a little while.

In other words... .what you desperately want from him that he's not giving you... .it isn't that he won't give it to you (and does give it to other women). As of today, he doesn't have it and cannot offer it to anyone.

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« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2015, 12:49:29 AM »

In other words... .what you desperately want from him that he's not giving you... .it isn't that he won't give it to you (and does give it to other women). As of today, he doesn't have it and cannot offer it to anyone.

The reality is that I don't think he will ever be able to offer it to anyone no matter what he tells me or himself. I spent over an hour on the phone with his mom. We talked about a whole bunch of stuff and I brought up a few of my complaints and her comment was something along the lines of "Sounds like he has reverted to being just like he was when he was a kid." She said she tried to teach him better than that but it never seemed to sink in. She shared that his dad was pretty much absent too. His dad never really played with him when he was a kid. His dad had no idea how to discipline kids and pretty much let them do whatever so it all fell on his mom. She admitted that she didn't have a lot of tools and didn't know what to do so she reverted to yelling most of the time.
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« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2015, 01:20:38 AM »

Hmm, did you ever really have intimacy with her? Or was it just intensity?  I know SAs confuse intensity with intimacy and partners can too.  I don't think my dBPDh and I ever had real intimacy until now.  By that I mean that he really saw me, the good and the bad not an all white or all black.  Where are you in the process?



Good question. I had really good moments. If we define intimacy as in sharing and seeing each other, definitely yes, it has happened. Sometimes I wonder if what I am dealing with is not really that we had a good connection, but when it got to be time to move forward into it, than the reactivity/avoidance started. And I don't mean only on her part with one side and me with the other side. We took turns. I beleive there is some of that in every relationships, especially at the beginning. It just got to be way more of that than expected.

Once I learned about her having a SA, and later when I learned about her BPD diagnosis, certain expectations/fears on my part came along. (I'm not saying that it was not a good thing to have the dx, on the contrary, but that it takes a time to integrate). Those expectations/fears were not always matched by her true intentions or behaviors. There were more and more times when her behaviors betrayed her intentions for sure. But there were times also where I felt like I was expecting the other shoe to drop, and did not necessarily see her for where she was at.

When you say that you don't think you two ever had real intimacy until now, I can relate to that. For my relationship, it was like little islands of insights we've had, which kept me staying for more. Those moments were true intimacy, not necessarily in the sexual sense, but in the sense of being seen, in our vulnerability. Overtime, these moments were less and less romantic, as the presence of the compulsive, hurtful behavior increased. When we got intimacy-moments later in the progress of the manifestation of the addiction/BPD, they were more related to remorse moments, and intense experiences of sharing a sense of failure on her part, or of my intense sharing of my pain at the betrayals on my side.

This qualifies as intimacy for me. However, it's the joys and the lightheartedness, and the fun parts, and the pleasureable parts which went gradually missing.

I beleive intimacy is something two people build together, and it can only happen if the two partner can feel trust in one another. Over time it grows, or it gets hurt.

I realise that she may be on the high functioning end of the spectrum. Because she worked hard at her recovery, and has come up with very valid points recently. She seems to go through the cycles still, but has a good understanding of what is at stake now. I'm grateful for that.

Than, as soon as I have a good feeling on how far we've got, I am reminded that she is a pwBPD.

There is always the possibility that I don't get her right, or that she doesn't get me right. The order of the disorder seems to prove that.

Excerpt
The attachment couples work is amazing once the SA has some recovery going and the spouse has done some healing.

So far, I've chosen to not see her until she has stopped the hurtful behavior. I see that she's not stopped yet. I have offered her to go to couples therapy if she succeeds. That would give me safe grounds for the possibility of a sensible future for the relationship to grow.

Now we are in a NC period, where we are working on our own parts and observing. If we decide after the NC period is over to confirm forward the relationship, we will see into that.


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