Working on our marriage

[Grey Kitty]

[Background: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240612.0;all and topics cited there.]

This also follows my discussion here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240815.0;all

I think a big answer to my question about why I didn't believe my wife fits right in with this discussion of grieving a relationship:

It is a loss.  A major loss (what you dreamed a relationship would be, intertwined with your own future going forward).  I went through the stages of grief:  Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance.

I've heard that those steps are not always linear. I think I was at some denial or bargaining phases there... .and hitting depression during that thread.

I'm getting some acceptance. I've also still got some hope for progress.

We've also got a schedule/time limit on initial work saving our marriage--My wife shared that her place to stay is up at the end of February, and then has to go someplace else... .not yet decided. If we aren't coming back together by then, I think we may well fly apart more rapidly. Since these decisions have some leadtime, the real (but fuzzier) deadline is mid-February. This suites me pretty well--If I wait much longer, I'll be sacrificing other things in my life for a marriage that my wife doesn't seem committed to.



Update: Yesterday my wife and I planned for her to drive down, and we would go pick up an audio CD of homework from our MC, plus I'd do some shopping (access to her car helps me there), and we'd plan on cooking a meal together and then watching a movie, and she would (most likely) drive back home for the night, about an hour. I was going to work boat projects till ~3pm when she arrived. That was the only part that went as planned.

She hit anxiety and was having trouble getting going, and hit more on the drive down. When she arrived, she pretty much needed to curl up in a blanket fort after a hello and a hug. So I did the errands on my own, and dinner was downgraded to a frozen pizza since I wasn't feeling motivated to cook something elaborate on my own. The movie didn't happen. And she ended up not having the energy to drive back; we had lots of discussions both last night and for a bit this morning as well. The conversations had some really interesting turns:

The Trigger: She mentioned some changes to her plans to fly away for a week to help a friend through some medical stuff. Turns out that the docs and insurance company got in a pissing match and he's not going to get the surgery afterall. But my wife is still visiting and driving his car back. I was half-distracted (putting groceries away), and said something fairly invalidating. She shut down. Got my full attention. It took quite a while, and a few tears on her part, but we did recover.

This was triggering because it made her feel the way she's felt "50,000" times before, where she feels she's sacrificed herself for me, etc.

This moment really opened us both up to some wonderful discussions that wouldn't have happened... .throughout the rest of this visit!.

Real Progress: She acknowledged that this really is her issue that she needs to deal with. That she feels controlled and judged... .Not that my behavior is blameless, but that she's participating, and has her own stuff to work on. Even that she has to do her own work to be able to make our marriage work.

Edge of Hope: One of the most interesting things she said was to acknowledge that there is a whole line of guys who are interested in her. And to say clearly that I'm at the front of the line. That she wants me more than any of them. I was in a listening/validating mode here, more than anything, so I didn't bring up how I felt about one particular guy in that line... .(grrrr)... .I did say that I believed her statement, and I didn't *FEEL* like I was at the front of the line with her, or didn't feel valued, or something along those lines. I played that one softly. (I'm sure she knows what I was talking about)

I am being strategic here--Choosing to validate her as much as I can, and really trying to be interested in how she's feeling. (And not 100% there, nor do I think I should be!)

Hard work ahead: She was pretty open about her fears that she can't make things work with me. One thing she shared was that she always believed there were two things that no marriage could survive: Abuse and Infidelity. And she's done them both.

At the end of 2011, she acknowledged that she was behaving abusively toward me, and we started working on it. (I found this forum in January 2012!) I was able to enforce boundaries, and she (eventually!) stopped trying to use abusive behavior.

Curiously, she's FEELING abused now. ('Tho she did acknowledge that I wasn't behaving abusively) And she's expressed a lot of fear that she doesn't have the strength I had to deal with those feelings/issues in our relationship.

The most hopeful part is that both of us are working on our own issues separately right now.

We've had a lot less luck dealing with the second issue successfully. We may not have compatible values around that one. However... .I do believe she's using that as a way to "bust out" of how she feels trapped with me. Her behavior may not really be representing her values.

I expect more of my issue here will come up in our next MC appointment tomorrow.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[jedimaster]

   Glad to hear some positive things happening.  Here's hoping it's the beginning of many more.

Your w is SOO much more self-aware than mine.  (As in, any self-awareness is more than mine.) Not sure if she will ever get to the point of acknowledging there is anything going on with her.  She's been exceptionally well-regulated the last couple of days, but I have learned the hard truth not to put much stock in good days except to enjoy the peace.  Today her world is a happy one; tomorrow who knows.

Anyway, congrats to you on some much needed and deserved progress! 

[MissyM]

And to say clearly that I'm at the front of the line. That she wants me more than any of them. I was in a listening/validating mode here, more than anything, so I didn't bring up how I felt about one particular guy in that line... .(grrrr)... .I did say that I believed her statement, and I didn't *FEEL* like I was at the front of the line with her, or didn't feel valued, or something along those lines. I played that one softly. (I'm sure she knows what I was talking about)

Wow, you are much tougher than I am.  That would have been a fight.  I am not going to compete for my husband's love and affection.  I think I told him that if he thought he could do better, good luck!  Actually, when he came back into recovery and our marriage full on, he told me there wasn't anyone even close to me and he would never be able to do better.  Not that what I said was healthy, just amazed you could hold it together with that statement.

[Grey Kitty]

Wow, you are much tougher than I am.  That would have been a fight.  I am not going to compete for my husband's love and affection.  I think I told him that if he thought he could do better, good luck!  Actually, when he came back into recovery and our marriage full on, he told me there wasn't anyone even close to me and he would never be able to do better.  Not that what I said was healthy, just amazed you could hold it together with that statement.

Maybe I'm tougher. Maybe I'm weaker. Dunno. I do know my history and standards are different.

I'm also trying to choose my battles, and save that one for in front of the MC.

I may have left out some context there. Most of the guys in "line" are just being flirted with. My wife isn't interested in anything more than friendship, and possibly flirting with most of them. I have considered the flirting to be 'harmless' and haven't made an issue of it. Anything beyond that is significant to me.

I do have to say one thing for sure... .stories like yours and VOC's give some real context to the pattern of behavior. Especially the addictive/compulsive nature of it. I'm not sure what is going on with my wife... .or what kind of line I'm going to draw to protect myself from further cheating.

I am sure that in order for me to feel safe with her, she needs to be doing something significant to address the pattern and whatever drives it, not just this one guy.

[vortex of confusion]

I am sure that in order for me to feel safe with her, she needs to be doing something significant to address the pattern and whatever drives it, not just this one guy.

The hard part is getting them to see the overall pattern. Sometimes, it feels like I am beating my head against a brick wall because he isn't able to connect the dots and see how everything adds up.

I tried to have that discussion with my husband this evening regarding his ads. I am not opposed to him having platonic female friends. I am not even opposed to him having a friend that is more than platonic. What I am opposed to is the repeated pattern of feeling like I am being completely disregarded. I feel like I could draw a line in the sand over the ad issue but I honestly don't think that it will be very comforting to me because it is ONE thing. It would help a little if he made the choice not to do it without pressure from me but I honestly don't think it will help the overall situation.

I am trying to accept the fact that he lacks impulse control. For me, that is one of the underlying issues that contributes to the lack of trust that I have for him. I mix his lack of impulse control with his naivete and see it as a recipe for disaster.

It sounds like your wife is being pretty naive to think that she can be "just" friends with this guy. From what you have said, it sounds like the guy will make a move the first chance he gets and your wife likely won't be able to say no. To me, that is one of the biggest impediments to trying to have a poly relationship with somebody that with BPD. Mixing lack of impulse control, poor judgment, and naivete is not a recipe to build trust and be confident that your partner isn't going to send you to the back of the line whenever it tickles his/her fancy.

[MissyM]

GK, sounds like you are handling this pretty well.  Just don't fall into the "pick me" dance when she throws out that there are other men waiting.  It is an implied threat, either give me what I am wanting (shower me with love and attention) or I will pick someone else.  Since the huge need for attention is a black hole and about their own damage, it just never works.  I am not saying to ignore what she is saying, just  not to take it all as the gospel of truth.  When she says you aren't romantic or loving enough, there may be a kernel of truth but that isn't why she chose to cheat.  Hopefully the MC can help with this.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm not wanting to play "pick me" over this. My concern isn't whether she will pick me or not. My concern is that she isn't showing concern for my feelings here.

I am aware that I could do more to make her feel desired, romanced, and loved. (Working on the different love language type of issue) I'll try to do more of that, but not in reaction to this issue.

I am thinking that it may give me an opening to bring up at MC, at least shining daylight onto the issue, or perhaps I can bring it out as the sort of validation that MaybeSo mentioned in another topic

"You have a need for attention from all these guys who are 'lining up' interested in you."

That is her pattern. I'm seeing it very clearly. What she DOES when one of the guys shows clear interest in her, and in taking things beyond the flirting level isn't so consistent. (Perhaps she's less compulsive/addicted at this level? Dunno... .and not MY problem! It is squarely her issue!)

[vortex of confusion]

My concern is that she isn't showing concern for my feelings here.

This question has probably been asked before. I have that same problem and I am trying to figure out "What will him showing concern for my feelings look like?" At what point will I feel like I am being taken into consideration? I am trying to look at specific things like him following through on what he says he is going to do. I am not sure if even that will help at this point. For me, it seems like I can give him all sorts of specific things to do or tell him what I want and there is still going to be a bit of a problem due to his inability to connect the dots. I find myself thinking "On what planet is this okay."

I am thinking that it may give me an opening to bring up at MC, at least shining daylight onto the issue, or perhaps I can bring it out as the sort of validation that MaybeSo mentioned in another topic

"You have a need for attention from all these guys who are 'lining up' interested in you."

It is soo hard to validate stuff like that. I have been trying to do the validating and trying to figure out for myself "Why does this bother me?" and I keep coming back to "Who the heck wouldn't be bothered by a spouse that is unpredictable. Harmless flirting is fine but I am not convinced that it is harmless flirting because HE has no boundaries." Ah, I wonder if that is part of the problem. It is hard to trust somebody that has no discernible or predictable boundaries.

How do you keep this focused on you without going back to the "she is doing this"? That is an area where I struggle. I am trying to stay focused on what I want and need but I keep finding myself going back to looking at what he is doing.

[Bloomer]

I am so glad to hear there has been some forward momentum for you. Being stuck in the mud is really frustrating.

Where will you need to be with your wife by mid-February to decide to stay or go?

How many days a week are you going to MC? Would it be possible if it is just one day a week to do two?

I hope things continue to improve. Good job coming back down and validating when you felt upset. That is a true accomplishment.

 Bloomer

[Grey Kitty]

We just got back from our second MC appointment. I think he's pretty impressed with the self-awareness we both have, and how clearly we understand the issues. His latest instruction was to spent a couple short ~1/2 hour times a week together discussing the homework (Audio CD entitled Holding On to Yourself in Relationships), and see him again in three weeks.

Highlights... .

My wife got anxious again when she was getting ready to drive down and see me for this MC appointment. Not quite as bad as last time, but still noticeable. (Actually I don't know how bad it really is--she may need to crash to take care of herself upon returning home, but she was able to drive back after the MC appointment.)

My wife pretty much acknowledged that she's been stuck in a pattern where she presents her choices to me, I shoot down 90% of them, and she doesn't have to prioritize because I've already done that for her. (I've admitted that I get out of making my own choices too this way)

She's afraid she can't make her own choices because of her own fear of my reaction, or that she can't take the rejection from me.

I did at one point try to clarify that what she is speaking about doesn't sound in any way actionable on my part. Neither she nor the MC really argued with me.

I spoke my truth about being betrayed a couple times; The MC heard my message loud and clear, and had got it last week. (I didn't have a chance/reason to bring up the pattern of my wife needing male attention... .Upon reflection, I'm not sure she can control her flirting, but I do believe she can control whether she takes it up to the next level or not... .foreshadowing of my last statement here.)

My wife had mentioned the idea of a separation for a while (~year) to me. She brought it up in T again. I said I wasn't quite sure what it meant since we were already living apart.

I said that I was afraid it meant that she was a "free agent" as in able to have any r/s she wanted to. And that I didn't think I could participate in relationships that way, or didn't want to. Also that I would probably be 'waiting' for her.

The best progress was that my wife said she wasn't committed to our relationship.

This is good because it is how she's been acting for a while now, and getting it out on the table feels better. We both know that as of today I'm the only one committed to our marriage. I also clearly stated that the choice is hers.

Tough to accept... .but I'd already accepted that her actions matched that, and I believed her actions much more than I believed anything she said in other directions.

[MissyM]

This is good because it is how she's been acting for a while now, and getting it out on the table feels better. We both know that as of today I'm the only one committed to our marriage. I also clearly stated that the choice is hers.

Tough to accept... .but I'd already accepted that her actions matched that, and I believed her actions much more than I believed anything she said in other directions.

That sounds emotional. 

[Crumbling]

    It must have been so hard to hear that.     Are you really okay?  There is a bit of validation there for you, tho, because she gave confirmation of what you have been sensing all along. 

What was the T's reaction to her admittance that she is not committed to the r/s?

You are strong, Grey Kitty, don't deny yourself that.  You're username here suits you so well, the kitty part anyway, because you seem to be like the quiet cat sitting patiently, learning, monitoring, observing, evaluating... .all very good practices and something a lot of us still struggle with.

[Grey Kitty]

Honestly, it felt good to hear that coming from her mouth. In an emperor-has-no-clothes kind of way.

Her actions had already shown me that, very clearly.

She has been expressing doubts about coming back to our marriage in most of our heart-to-heart conversations.

I even had the captain of Team Grey Kitty tell me a while ago that I was the only one still in my marriage.

I was finding it impossible not to believe it.

So hearing her acknowledge it is better.

And the other good news is that she's very aware that she has to choose whether to commit or not... .and that her choice will matter--I'm not going to stay as the only person committed to our marriage much longer.

I'm in a place of acceptance about it. At least today!

[MissyM]

I'm in a place of acceptance about it. At least today!

Hey, that is saying a lot!  For today is all we have. 

[formflier]

 

GK,

Hang in there man... .you have heard some tough words.  You seem to be holding up well.

What's up with the three week timeline to come back... .if you are sort of looking at mid feb as a time to decide?

Also... what's up with her having to leave end of Feb... .what options are there for her to stay and work on things?

Seems like a false timeline...

Again... hang in there !  

[Grey Kitty]

@FF: End of Feb is real. She is renting somebody's guest room. The owner will have guests in March, making it unavailable. She is already embedded in the community there though. If she wanted to stick around longer, I have no doubt she could find other living quarters. (Where she wants to live next is a whole 'nuther thing.)

Besides... .it suits ME very well in two ways:

1. I'm hoping to have my boat in the water in February. I won't be tied quite as hard to here.

2. I am tired of spending my life waiting for her to decide what she wants to do, and want to move forward with my life. Pushing her to either "___ or get off the pot" is better than me being in limbo.

... .and the three week thing... .that was the MC's schedule to give us time to work on ourselves. We didn't mention our deadline to him at the time. I kinda figure that we will be deciding around Valentine's Day based on the deadline and allowing some time to plan ahead for March.

Update: Had a nice chat with her just now... .cut short by an incoming call on her end. Some clarification:

She told me that when she says she isn't committed to our marriage, she means more that she is feeling very confused and leaning away from the marriage, somewhat to resolve the confusion. I pushed for clarification, and she confirmed that she also is not committed to leaving our marriage.

This is progress. Also the homework assigned to us by the MC is really good--I listened to the audio (one hour) and was impressed. I think it resembles the sort of work I've been doing... .and I think the MC picked it because it is exactly what my wife needs to do to find some clarity about this situation.

I truly hope she finds clarity and peace, and makes a choice. If she chooses to end our marriage I'm OK with that. It will be a whole lot better than being "The only person in our marriage" which is what a friend told me my role was a while ago.

I also think that if she does the work on herself, she is pretty likely to decide that she can commit to our marriage, and we can make things work.

[formflier]

 

So... .  in March you could have

1.  Boat in water

2.  Clarity on future direction of your r/s

March looks pretty good from where I sit!

Is that how you are looking at it?

[vortex of confusion]

She told me that when she says she isn't committed to our marriage, she means more that she is feeling very confused and leaning away from the marriage, somewhat to resolve the confusion. I pushed for clarification, and she confirmed that she also is not committed to leaving our marriage.

Sounds like she doesn't want to do the work of keeping you but doesn't want to let you go either. At least that is how I feel about things with my husband. He won't do the work involved in keeping me but he doesn't want to let me go either. Having a deadline to work with probably feels pretty good after being in limbo for so long. I know I am getting frustrated with not having any sort of end in sight.

I truly hope she finds clarity and peace, and makes a choice. If she chooses to end our marriage I'm OK with that. It will be a whole lot better than being "The only person in our marriage" which is what a friend told me my role was a while ago.

Don't forget that you also have the power to make the choice to end the marriage!  I saw red flags when I read the above statement. I am thinking of my own situation and how I seriously doubt that my husband is capable of making the choice to end the marriage. I feel like he is going to string things out as long as he can and even when he does make a decision he will likely flip flop. I guess what I am trying to say is, "Hang in there cause it is likely to be a long ride no matter how things go."

I also think that if she does the work on herself, she is pretty likely to decide that she can commit to our marriage, and we can make things work.

And if she doesn't. . .

I know you are feeling hopeful and that is a good thing. I know that I have had those feelings of hope where I think "If he does x, y, z, then we can make things work." It will be good for a while and then something will happen and then I find myself right back where I was before. I know you know this and have been through it. It is a reminder for myself as much as for you. 

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, I do have the choice to stay in my marriage or leave it.

And yes, I have my doubts that my wife will chose to leave it all the way. She has chosen to act in ways that aren't committed to the marriage, and is taking vague half-steps forward and back on that.

I'm choosing to work on myself and build a life for myself that I will thrive in, married or single.

I'm choosing to give my wife some more time (three~five weeks) to come back.

If at the end of February I'm STILL choosing to wait for her without significant progress on her part, results, not just processing, please give me a good kick in the pants and a reminder that I said this.

[MissyM]

I'm choosing to give my wife some more time (three~five weeks) to come back.

If at the end of February I'm STILL choosing to wait for her without significant progress on her part, results, not just processing, please give me a good kick in the pants and a reminder that I said this.

Great plan!  I felt a lot of relief when I decided how long I was willing to give it.  I didn't even tell my husband but things resolved enough within that time that I was willing to stay, he became committed to the relationship even though we weren't nearly in the space I wanted.

I know I am getting frustrated with not having any sort of end in sight.

I would suggest looking at how GK is handling it, setting a goal (improve marriage or end it), deciding a course of action (including work on self) and setting a time limit.  All things within your power.

[Grey Kitty]

I just had a moment. Tomorrow I'll be taking my wife to the airport. We will be meeting ahead of that to discuss MC homework. I texted "Wazzup? and when will you be here tomorrow?" or some such. It is a seriously RAINY day, so I'm doing no boat work. I could be doing planning inside, but I'm not, and I admit it. It has been a quiet and lazy day for me.

She called right away, and told me about some business/tax stuff she was working out. After she told me a bit, I started telling her some of the things I thought... .even though I had already clarified that this didn't involve any joint filings, only her stuff. Eventually we made plans for tomorrow.

However in between, she hit her common emotionally shut down place, and said something again about not being able to take this anymore. Honestly, I can't remember exactly what she said, or all the tone of it--I was a little too involved in my own feelings about it. ("Oh no, I just set her off again... ."

I felt bad about saying something that triggered her like that. Felt that I wasn't using the right tools, I wasn't aware enough of my role in the conversation, I was letting myself slip into something invalidating, instead of being validating, etc.

About five or ten minutes later I had my moment.

Maybe our marriage won't work out, due to this kind of conflict.

Oh! Maybe the problem isn't that I'm too invalidating.

Maybe the problem is that my wife IS too hypersensitive to me, because she is too enmeshed with me, and she cannot get around/through this.

Maybe I'm worth having a relationship with somebody I can relax around?

Maybe I'll be happier being in a relationship with somebody more emotionally aware who will handle my little slip-ups better than my wife does, or possibly not even mind?

At first I called it a moment of self-doubt. Then I wondered if it was a moment of clarity? Or a moment of relationship doubt? I dunno. Perhaps a moment of acceptance?

Whatever this moment was, I'm not changing my game plan based on it yet. I'm still working on myself, and still giving my wife some time to work on herself.

[vortex of confusion]

Maybe our marriage won't work out, due to this kind of conflict.

Oh! Maybe the problem isn't that I'm too invalidating.

Maybe the problem is that my wife IS too hypersensitive to me, because she is too enmeshed with me, and she cannot get around/through this.

Maybe I'm worth having a relationship with somebody I can relax around?

Maybe I'll be happier being in a relationship with somebody more emotionally aware who will handle my little slip-ups better than my wife does, or possibly not even mind?

Get out of my head!  I am back to a place where I want out and I want out NOW!

I have recently had all of those same thoughts at different times. I feel flakier than a box of corn flakes. I am still trying to articulate a game plan that is based on what I can realistically do and then stick with it for the most part.

[formflier]

 

Has there been any talk at MC about what issues you are each working on...

Here is the thing... .if you are open and "own" working on being validating... .

And she is open and working on being less sensitive... .

You would think that you would meet in the middle... .or somewhere acceptable.

Hey... .Grey... .was meaning to ask earlier...

Can you  tell us about when you became aware of wife's abusive behavior... and how you worked through it... .?

One reason I ask... .is that I'm thinking that was probably harder... .than "emotional sensitivity"... or whatever she is calling this now.

I'm also interested in hearing it... .because it might be useful to me... .to try and squeeze the last bit of that out of my r/s.

Thanks... .

[Moselle]

GK,

Sorry you're going through such an agonising time. I'm glad you have something - your boat to distract you.

It sounds like you are making real progress towards a happier time, regardless of the outcome of the deadline.

I can relate to your moment of acceptance when she said she wasn't committed. I also believe that is a positive thing. Mine has said similar things. And alot worse LOL. It's almost therapeutic to hear the truth after all the FOG.  

Here's my understanding of it. In that moment when they have the pain it's easier to say they're not committed. Then when they calm down they become less sure. The words "I hate you, don't leave me" are probably the truth, certainly for my W.  Is there love as we understand it or even crave it?  I don't think  so. It is love the way they understand it. I think it is about fulfilling their needs and not giving alot in return.

Is this acceptable?  Only we can answer that

[jedimaster]

Maybe I'm worth having a relationship with somebody I can relax around?

Maybe I'll be happier being in a relationship with somebody more emotionally aware who will handle my little slip-ups better than my wife does, or possibly not even mind?

These are the same questions I have asked myself.

I'm pretty sure the answers (for me anyway) are "Yes, even if the somebody is just me!"

[Grey Kitty]

Can you  tell us about when you became aware of wife's abusive behavior... and how you worked through it... .?

Thanks for asking. I just dug through some of my old diaries and made a timeline of sorts. Speed of events is interesting.

October-November 2011, My wife and I embarked upon some non-traditional relationships involving another couple. My wife did NOT have the emotional health to do this well. She got VERY abusive toward me at this time. It was really starting to tear me apart. I was getting support from a few friends at the time.

Nov-14 -- I wrote about being afraid of her in my diary

Dec-02 -- I was trying to address this, 'tho I hadn't used the word abuse. One of my supporters said almost casually in an email “You do know that it is completely unacceptable to verbally abuse your spouse?”

Dec-06 -- My wife was looking for resources like counseling for us. Found one aimed at helping couples recover from abuse. Read the description and realized that she was the abusive one. A quote from me that day: “Did you just admit that you were verbally abusing me?”

Jan-02 -- A friend of a friend heard a description of Margaret, and thought it sounded like BPD. I heard this from her before she heard it from me.

Jan-06 -- My first post here. Very soon after I started enforcing boundaries against verbal abuse.

Pretty much I was a harda$$ on the boundaries, and they worked and protected me.

Months later, she stopped being verbally abusive to me, when she had a personal breakthrough of her own. Still didn't go back to that.

[formflier]

 

Was there abusive behavior before then?  before the start of those non traditional r/s

[Grey Kitty]

Abusive behavior goes back to the beginning of our relationship. Mostly it came up when my wife was depressed (She would have periods of a week or two, averaging once or twice a year), had PMS... .or when we had a big conflict that we couldn't resolve.

That was a period with a LOT of conflict and drama. I learned a lot of hard lessons, and I learned them well.

One other hard line I drew was easier because my wife had acknowledged the verbal abuse.

"Abuse is fundamentally about control. Until the abuse is GONE, I refuse to discuss my mental health, or what issues I 'need' to work on with you. Not that I won't address them--that I won't discuss them with you. Because that would be handing control over to you, and that is exactly what we are trying to change in stopping the abuse. In addition, you may not call upon me to do ANYTHING as a condition for you stopping abuse for the same reason."

FF, I hope that answers your question.  I hope reading it will help somebody. (PM me or start another topic if you want more of that story; I'm moving on here)

[Grey Kitty]

Maybe I'm worth having a relationship with somebody I can relax around?

Maybe I'll be happier being in a relationship with somebody more emotionally aware who will handle my little slip-ups better than my wife does, or possibly not even mind?

These are the same questions I have asked myself.

I'm pretty sure the answers (for me anyway) are "Yes, even if the somebody is just me!"

jedimaster, my answer is also a resounding YES! I'm already adding more friends like that to my life. I'm not yet dating, 'tho there is one woman I've got an eye on for later when I am ready 

The other part of my answer is that given the sort of progress my wife has made, I'm willing to give her time to work on this, and try to be that person.

The other thing I'm finding is that my acceptance of the situation AS IT IS really helps me find all sorts of good things. One of them is this bit of understanding my wife.

She keeps accusing me of controlling her and stifling her. She told me that she feels abused by me. (Although she acknowledges that my behavior is not actually abusive) I'm starting to believe and understand.

I'm realizing that she is very enmeshed with me. Specifically that she feels like she cannot make a decision to do something in her life without asking for my approval. Even when it is something that doesn't impact me. (She's enmeshed, and doesn't see the boundaries between us clearly, so she honestly has trouble figuring out what is "her" decision and what is "our" decision.)

When I really accept this, I can understand her feeling--if she tells me that she wants to do something... .and I say something negative, disapproving... .or even just fail to sound excited for her, she is taking that as me preventing her from doing what she wants to do.

I'm not saying it is reasonable or healthy... .I'm saying that she really feels that way. And so she does feel abused, controlled, and stifled by this.

And this understanding will help me find some compassion for her. Especially as she works on the enmeshment for herself.

[Moselle]

"Abuse is fundamentally about control. Until the abuse is GONE, I refuse to discuss my mental health, or what issues I 'need' to work on with you. Not that I won't address them--that I won't discuss them with you. Because that would be handing control over to you, and that is exactly what we are trying to change in stopping the abuse. In addition, you may not call upon me to do ANYTHING as a condition for you stopping abuse for the same reason."

FF, I hope that answers your question.  I hope reading it will help somebody.

It helps me - massively. Thank you so.much for sharing that. It helps me understand the root of what my W is doing and why.

Did you say this to her directly?