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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
Listen with Empathy -
A Powerful Life Skill
Setting Boundaries
and Setting Limits
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Author Topic: Working on our marriage  (Read 1241 times)
Grey Kitty
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« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2015, 08:19:22 PM »

Moselle, Yes, I said it directly, and more than once. And I meant it.

It was easier because she had acknowledged that she was behaving abusively. (She had escalated to physical abuse a couple times by then!)

It was also easier because she didn't try to argue about the expression "verbal abuse".

FYI, any reading about domestic violence / abuse, the control issues come up immediately. This isn't at all special to BPD... .possibly other causes for abuse aren't as easy to control with boundaries as the stuff from BPD is though. I count myself blessed to not have direct experience with any other sort of abusive r/s!

And no, she sure didn't LIKE it when I said that. But it seemed better than "My support network is not your ___ing business, neither is whether I am in therapy or not, or what I say there."

But what really mattered was I *KNEW* that I meant it and wasn't going to back down.
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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING
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« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2015, 08:53:59 PM »

Excerpt
She keeps accusing me of controlling her and stifling her. She told me that she feels abused by me. (Although she acknowledges that my behavior is not actually abusive) I'm starting to believe and understand.

My dBPDh is now aware that just because he is feeling abused, that doesn't mean that is what is happening because he mixes up his past and his present.

Excerpt
"In addition, you may not call upon me to do ANYTHING as a condition for you stopping abuse for the same reason."

Same goes with infidelity.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2015, 10:03:12 AM »

Excerpt
"In addition, you may not call upon me to do ANYTHING as a condition for you stopping abuse for the same reason."

Same goes with infidelity.

My wife's position is not "I cheated because... ." or "I need you to do X so I won't cheat". I wouldn't accept that at all.

Instead her position is "I am not sure I can be committed to our r/s because of 'X'" And she's getting to a place of noticing that "X" is (90%+) about her, not me. The corollary to her position is "Since I'm not committed to you, I won't give up another r/s for you." (There is also an aspect of "I'm aware that the cheating was against my own values, and acknowledge it once in a while, but I don't have the capacity to really sit with that, and look at real consequences of that for any length of time.)

As a friend of mine would say upon occasion "Moving Right Along Now... ."




I just listened to this audiobook "Holding on to yourself in Relationships" by Allen Berger. [Side note: IT IS GOOD STUFF!] It was assigned by our MC for us to listen to... .and to talk about it for a short period like a half hour, a couple times a week. She's going to be here in ~3 hours, we will go out to lunch and have that discussion, and then I'm driving her to the airport (~45 minutes) for a trip of most of this week before she comes into the area.

So what is there in this for me? The first thing I'm noticing (and having to WORK HARD at!) is that he very clearly states that my job is to find things that *I* need to work on in this tape, and address them. Not things that my wife needs to work on from it.

This is F***ING hard. I see soo many things my wife needs to address in it.

Idea I will probably start by telling her that I am really struggling to focus on the areas I need to work on instead of the areas she needs to work on! And that I know it is hard to do.

Much of it is about how you manage the desire to be kind, generous, and loving to your partner in a r/s, and the desire to maintain your own independence, AT THE SAME TIME.

Idea During my marriage, I generally fell down on the side of not maintaining my independence--By not even making my own choices, often not even thinking about what *I* wanted at all, instead deciding "Yes" or "No" about whether I wanted the thing my wife said she wanted!

At times when I feel hurt and betrayed by my wife, I do a lot less of this (like after she cheated last fall!). I also back away to protect myself.

I'm trying NOT to fall back into this as I re-connect with my wife. Looking at the choices I made around Christmas, I didn't do as well as I would have liked to. Hmmm... .

Idea Another area I am struggling with is in being the best husband I can, and providing the kind of emotional connection that will make my wife feel loved and cherished.

(Unlike the last one, I have serious doubts about how much I'll share of this with my wife during this conversation. Because sharing it will work against the goal itself!)

My wife needs more romance, flirting, being playfully pursued. (She described a fun flirty text exchange with the guy she's been texting with last night on the phone, about him wanting to take her a drive in the mountains in his convertible... .which at 3000 miles apart is just playful)

I'm trying to give her this. And I'm struggling to feel safe and secure in doing it. Partly because she is closer, so it isn't all automatically a fantasy, and follow through is possible. And partly because I'm still feeling hurt and betrayed, and feeling her lack of commitment to me... .and that can suck the energy out of it for me.

I do *know* that my values tell me to push through it and do at least some of this anyway--I do want to put my best efforts fully into my marriage right now, and that means communicating this with her.

And I *know* that this is *hard* work for me. And that doing hard work is my path to personal growth.

... .As long as I'm not sacrificing my own independence and my own feelings by doing it... .see the original description here.

Good mental health is *HARD* work, as others here have said many times. Time to put on my big boy pants and do some of it!
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« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2015, 10:15:08 AM »

 

Are you guys supposed to be open about the things you have found to work on yourself.


It's clear you are not supposed to suggest things to the other.

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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2015, 10:53:41 AM »

We weren't given any particular instructions on how open to be or not be about stuff from the MC. The only instruction was to keep this sort of heavy stuff limited to a couple times a week for a half-hour, and to talk about the stuff in the audiobook.

On thinking about it, I plan to share that it is something I see the need to work on in myself, specifically mentioning the conversation we had last night.

I won't elaborate on why it is a struggle for me to achieve this, and if it comes up, I will say that I want to work on that on my own, rather than with her.
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« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2015, 10:58:42 AM »

 

Solid...
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2015, 07:27:28 PM »

Today went as planned pretty much. Had lunch with my wife, had the discussion, then dropped ehr at the airport.

She shared her piece from with me first; Most of it was about not taking things personally. She explained how she had for a long time taken much of what I'm doing on our boat personally, including that there is no good space for her here (it is our home) while I'm working on it. She now sees that it isn't something I'm doing TO her.

She had a look of serious recognition when I admitted that it was impossible to listen to it and not think of all the things my spouse could do better. But I was going to avoid mentioning them to her and try to concentrate on my own stuff.
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« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2015, 08:04:55 PM »

I would add that she seemed touched and impressed with what I was saying.

We had a good time together. She expressed how good it feels to be living 60 miles away from me right now.

(And I was aware that I was mostly not being quite relaxed and 'easy' with her. Just a bit extra aware most of the time)

And the big issue--whether she is willing to commit to our marriage--is still up in the air. I did thank her for not telling me more about it (where she's leaning, what she's considering, etc.) because I didn't want false hope or false fear. I want to know her decision when she's sure.
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« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2015, 09:04:51 PM »

Quote from: Grey Kitty link=topic=241137.msg12565704#msg12565704 date=


And the big issue--whether she is willing to commit to our marriage--is still up in the air.

What are her actions saying?

Quote from: Grey Kitty link=topic=241137.msg12565704#msg12565704 date=


Thought Another area I am struggling with is in being the best husband I can, and providing the kind of emotional connection that will make my wife feel loved and cherished.

This is a big one. I also realise that after 14 years of control and abuse (of which I was totally unaware,  and then played an enabling role), I have lost or not developed this aspect to my behavioural repertoire.  How do I go about building a connection with someone who is so openly cruel without remorse? And how do I help her feel loved and cherished when she doesn't love and cherish herself and thus cannot accept it from someone else?
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« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2015, 09:47:44 PM »

Excerpt
And the big issue--whether she is willing to commit to our marriage--is still up in the air.

What are her actions saying?

She says she's undecided and confused. Her actions match, and are inside my boundaries by a razor's edge... .

She did cut contact with the guy she cheated with. Big Plus. This was Thanksgiving. I believed she was accepting my conditions / meeting what I needed.

Around Christmas she said she'd cut contact on her terms, not mine. (She either lied, changed her mind, or was deceptive/vague about it before--I was VERY clear)

She also told me that she will see him as a friend when she happens to run into him. It won't happen for months, but I expect the opportunity to be there. NOT ACCEPTABLE to me.

But she's still not in contact with him. (Small plus)

While we're working on things in MC, I'll give her the ambiguity on what she says she will do. But I'm not happy about it. I am aware that these are words, not actions. Actions matter a lot more.

Excerpt
Excerpt
Thought Another area I am struggling with is in being the best husband I can, and providing the kind of emotional connection that will make my wife feel loved and cherished.

This is a big one. I also realise that after 14 years of control and abuse (of which I was totally unaware,  and then played an enabling role), I have lost or not developed this aspect to my behavioural repertoire.  How do I go about building a connection with someone who is so openly cruel without remorse? And how do I help her feel loved and cherished when she doesn't love and cherish herself and thus cannot accept it from someone else?

Honestly, I don't think you can.

A couple years ago, my wife made a huge breakthrough, and set aside the self-hatred and started loving herself. She could then accept that if I said or did something loving for her, it was genuine... .rather than believing that it had to be fake for some ulterior motive. (After all, she felt unlovable, and feelings = facts ... .therefore anybody who professed to love her was lying!)

I'd note that I laid the groundwork for this breakthrough--by refusing to accept verbal/emotional abuse from her. When I took that coping mechanism away from her, she had to find some new and better ones.

Without this groundwork, I wouldn't be able to even attempt being more romantic and flirtatious with my wife! (It is hard enough with her having one foot out of our marriage!)
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« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2015, 07:47:16 AM »

How do I go about building a connection with someone who is so openly cruel without remorse? And how do I help her feel loved and cherished when she doesn't love and cherish herself and thus cannot accept it from someone else?

There is a fine line of thinking it is her... .or disorder
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« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2015, 07:52:51 AM »

 

Moselle,

Also need to think about forgiveness.

Two people that need it... .you and her.

Her for doing it

You for letting her

I have same struggle.  Forgiveness is hard.  Somedays it's harder to forgive myself... .sometimes her.

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« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2015, 09:43:37 AM »

One good thing in MC and some of the heavier discussions... .

That bemused look from her... .upon hearing I'm feeling like I'm being controlled or letting her control me, and ready to change that. When she seems to be realizing that the way we are enmeshed in making decisions... .which has her feeling controlled and stifled in a way that she finds unbearable... .isn't making me feel like I'm winning, or feeling good for me either.


Here's where it takes me... .the dynamic where one party is dominating/controlling and the other is submitting/being controlled is an unequal and unhealthy one... .on both sides. Somehow, we both feel like we are in the "one-down" position of this dynamic... .and the 'natural' solution, trying to get to the "one-up" side of it doesn't actually fix the problem.

Even if we agree about which of us is "one-down" and which is "one-up", it still doesn't feel good or healthy for either of us!


From my reading/thinking... .the best news is that this dynamic requires both of us to participate in it. If I decide I'm done with it, she can't play the game with me unless I participate. Same is true the other way.
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« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2015, 09:51:07 AM »

Excerpt
Here's where it takes me... .the dynamic where one party is dominating/controlling and the other is submitting/being controlled is an unequal and unhealthy one... .on both sides. Somehow, we both feel like we are in the "one-down" position of this dynamic... .and the 'natural' solution, trying to get to the "one-up" side of it doesn't actually fix the problem.

Exactly!  Trying to get to partnership with a BPD is very tricky.  My buttons get pushed with being one down and I go into self defense, which results in being one up.  The hard part of the equation is that my dBPDh always feels one down, with everyone.  As he works on that feeling, we are able to come together more and more as equals.  It still talks a huge leap of faith from me to let down my guard and the self defense of being one up.
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« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2015, 12:59:40 AM »

Latest update. She's driving cross country, and we were texting at bedtime. She decided to call me, and we got into heavy topics; Apparently she's had time to think and fret about things.

Sometimes doing the right thing is enough to drive me nuts. At least I think it is the right thing.

She's feeling vulnerable... .she brought up some stuff that circled around for a while... .and homed in on her concern that I've put up some emotional boundaries. She asked me about it. Since she cheated, I've trusted her a lot less than I used to. (I didn't say ":)uh!" So I'm keeping a lot more to myself. (See https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270332.0 for my own concerns around this.) I acknowledged that I felt betrayed, and didn't trust her as much as I used to, and that I would need her to do things to prove to me that she is trustworthy again.

I said that I wanted her to commit to working on making herself more trustworthy and doing things to build my trust. (Not that I needed a detailed plan, but that she needed to commit to working it out and trying to do it.)

She goes a little ways, then spirals off onto all the ways she's been frustrated by me and hurt by me for 20 years. [Which was followed by another such thing; can't remember details now]

I gently point out that she asked me how I felt... .and before even acknowledging that she heard my answer, she had to turn it around and make it all about herself.

She then said something beating herself up [forgot what]

I (a little less gently, but not at all harsh) point out that this is still making it all about her, and further, it doesn't make me feel better to hear her beat herself up--I love her and that makes me feel bad to hear it, even if she says it.

[Aside: The MC had instructed us to do short targeted discussions, and avoid long processing]

Later I mention that I'm thinking about getting a Tabla and learning to play it. She mentions that there is a resource that I probably won't like to learn how to play. (Yep, the guy she cheated with plays and has an  instructor)

After I re-state that I want nothing to do with him, she asks me to consider that he has some good characteristics, and is trying to do good in the world, not evil.

I point out that I don't want to tell her what I think of him, because it is probably a lot more negative than what she thinks, and the last thing I want is to put her in the position of defending him.

Looking back at it, she was repeatedly picking things to say that would provoke me, or blow up intimacy. I don't think it was calculated, but she clearly couldn't stop herself. (There were at least three others!)

And here's the kicker. She's afraid that I don't view her as an equal (in our relationship... .in things like emotional maturity or trustworthyness).     

 Why am I trying to counter this sort of statement at the same time I'm working soo hard to be the emotionally mature one in the conversation and NOT let it spiral completely out of control despite her constantly turning it that direction?

Hmmm... .maybe I should be validating her feeling that our marriage is hopeless instead of saying that I don't see it that way when she tries to tell me why it is hopeless?  Idea

Yes, I was on the phone an hour. And now I'm up an hour later processing it. Sigh.
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« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2015, 08:29:14 AM »

 

Gut reaction... .I think you handled it well.

I'll think and process some too... .wondering if validating the hopeless marriage feeling is good... .

Or... .if you leave off marriage... .and just validate "hopeless"

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« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2015, 08:36:13 AM »

Excerpt
Or... .if you leave off marriage... .and just validate "hopeless"

Yes, that was the advice I was given when my dBPDh would say the marriage is hopeless.  The reality is that he was feeling hopeless and the marriage was just a vehicle to blame for his hopelessness.  The more I could remove the marriage as the target for his feelings, the more he seemed able to feel validated and acknowledge that he did actually just feel hopeless.
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« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2015, 08:46:28 AM »

You may be on the right track here about "validating the marriage as hopeless" if your wife is anything like my husband--and I can see some similarities in your recent conversation.

In his case, if I were to do that, he'd immediately take the opposite side.
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« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2015, 08:53:13 AM »

[ The more I could remove the marriage as the target for his feelings, the more he seemed able to feel validated and acknowledge that he did actually just feel hopeless.

Interesting... .

If this is the case with GK... .that would seem to indicate that there is something other than the marriage... .that is contributing to his wife feeling hopeless.

I had assumed it was here issue number 1 (and it may be... .)

GK... .thoughts on "what is really" contributing to hopelessness?

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« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2015, 09:04:02 AM »

She goes a little ways, then spirals off onto all the ways she's been frustrated by me and hurt by me for 20 years. [Which was followed by another such thing; can't remember details now]

I would bring up... in MC next time... .how far back you guys are supposed to go.  I would say the past 1 year is an appropriate limit.  Point here is that nobody can stand up to a 20 year period of hurts... .especially in a troubled relationship.  Was this addressed at on in MC?

I gently point out that she asked me how I felt... .and before even acknowledging that she heard my answer, she had to turn it around and make it all about herself.

Did she acknowledge this?  How can you redirect this next time... .?  "Excuse me... .I thought you had asked about my feelings... . I wasn't aware we were done talking about those yet... "  My wife does this too... she likes to get 3 or 4 topics going at once... .and not "complete" or "understand" any of them.

 (Yep, the guy she cheated with plays and has an  instructor)

I'm thinking this was clearly a baiting tactic... . thoughts?

I point out that I don't want to tell her what I think of him, because it is probably a lot more negative than what she thinks, and the last thing I want is to put her in the position of defending him.

What did she say to this?

And here's the kicker. She's afraid that I don't view her as an equal (in our relationship... .in things like emotional maturity or trustworthyness).    

I think this would be a great place for "help me to understand... "... .followed by... ."what do you think you can do to change this?"

Did she explain why... .or just that she thinks this.

Yes, I was on the phone an hour. And now I'm up an hour later processing it. Sigh.

Do you think it was too long... or not long enought... .just right?
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« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2015, 09:50:44 AM »

Looking back at it, it went on longer than was productive.

And looking back at it, I managed very well to not REACT to provocations in a destructive way.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I did not manage to respond consistently in the way I believe would have been best... .with validation at a deep level... .in hindsight.  Idea

She brought up her fears about our marriage being broken, her being broken, that I wouldn't be able to view her as an equal, that I think she is broken, etc. etc. It was almost like a parade.

Excerpt
Or... .if you leave off marriage... .and just validate "hopeless"

Yes, that was the advice I was given when my dBPDh would say the marriage is hopeless.  The reality is that he was feeling hopeless and the marriage was just a vehicle to blame for his hopelessness.  The more I could remove the marriage as the target for his feelings, the more he seemed able to feel validated and acknowledge that he did actually just feel hopeless.

^^^^

THIS!

I think she is feeling afraid and unworthy more than hopeless. And the closer I am to validating those feelings, or whatever she is actually feeling, the better it seems to go.

My fear of her leaving is grabbing me by the yaya's and sending me down the rabbit hole of trying to reassure her that our marriage will be OK, etc., etc... .

I'm going to try to work on seeing and confronting that fear instead... .so I can validate her feelings.




Wish me luck and peace... .she's got a long drive today, and is expecting to roll in here this evening and spend the night with me on the boat. I expect her to be a little too tired to be 100% at her best... .or possibly very anxious and unable to function at an emotionally engaged level with me. [That might be easier!]
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« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2015, 12:17:07 PM »

Wish me luck and peace... .she's got a long drive today, and is expecting to roll in here this evening and spend the night with me on the boat. I expect her to be a little too tired to be 100% at her best... .or possibly very anxious and unable to function at an emotionally engaged level with me. [That might be easier!]

Can you have a special meal or something ready for her?  Something that says you went a bit out of your way.

Yesterday... .it was really cold here... .I followed my wife over to gas pumps... and pumped for her so she wouldn't have to be out in the cold wind.

I didn't think much of it... .boy... .she sure did.  I think she really appreciated it.

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« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2015, 12:27:51 PM »

Can you have a special meal or something ready for her?  Something that says you went a bit out of your way.

My thoughts exactly FF!

Focusing on figuring out something sweet to surprise here with might also help distract GK from thinking too much about the heavy stuff.
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« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2015, 12:32:46 PM »

 

I would think at this point... .special effort... .that is not especially romantic (cards and flowers)... .might be best.

I worry that overly romantic things... .could be invalidating... .

Hard to tell... .just my opinion.

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« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2015, 12:40:09 PM »

I would think at this point... .special effort... .that is not especially romantic (cards and flowers)... .might be best.

I worry that overly romantic things... .could be invalidating... .

Hard to tell... .just my opinion.

True!

If she has been on the road all day and is tired, a foot rub or back rub accompanied by her favorite beverage (hot tea, hot chocolate, alcoholic beverage, etc.) might fit the bill. It could be something as simple as making sure that you have her favorite snack available. I wouldn't consider any of that romantic but it is thoughtful and simple.
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EaglesJuju
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 1653



« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2015, 12:46:01 PM »

Staff only

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .
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