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Author Topic: deep conversation...  (Read 564 times)
4kidz
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« on: January 22, 2015, 09:13:38 AM »

hello all- Can anyone explain what constitutes "deep conversation"  My UBPDW has definitely painted me black and I am in the midst of a nearly 4 month period of being given the silent treatment. I have tried a little of everything to make this relationship work. I have absorbed rage, anger with validation and some of the other tools I have learned. ( the few times we talk). Anyhow I keep hearing that I need to talk to her about deep issues that effect our relationship. Basically have been told everything else is small, superficial talk. I am told to learn to love myself. Work on my issues... Problem is that most , if not all of my issues surround my relationship with my wife. I am an easy going guy, definitely have co dependent traits. I get along with everybody. Admittedly I am not a great communicator.But I want this relationship to work and am committed to doing so. I struggle like heck conversing about deep issues that effect our relationship. My biggest issue seems to be bringing up a topic. If she asks questions she considers important I have no problem talking about them. Anybody have any suggestions as to what some REAL issues worth discussing may be? 
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maxsterling
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2015, 09:28:20 AM »

Wow, 4 months of silent treatment.  I feel for you, man. 

"Real issues" are going to be something she conjures up in her own reality and are unlikely to be the "real" issues she is facing.  Normally when I face this type of situation, she is wanting me to apologize for or fix something that I didn't do or have no control over.  I suggest caution when entering this game with her. 

I do suggest staying in your own reality, taking care of you, being respectful of her, and let her sort out her won feelings.  Does she see a T at all?

Question - do you fear talking about deep issues because it tends to bring out an exhausting exchange or rage that leaves you feeling invalidated and hurt?  My wife has claimed at times that I won't talk about deep issues, yet I intentionally try and keep things on the surface and avoid certain subjects because too many times it leads to threats that she wants to kill herself. 
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Notwendy
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2015, 09:39:55 AM »

At first glance, I thought, "Am I your wife?" but I don't do the ST, rages and all that. I have asked the question of "deep talk" to my H, and it really befuddles him. He gets very frustrated at the concept. Sometimes my attempts to "deep talk" will result in circular conversation. If I ask him a personal question he is likely to rage.

Reading Men are from Mars, women from Venus is a good description of how women talk to connect, and when men talk about an issue, they usually want to fix it. That can seem invalidating to a woman who just wants to share feelings and then the man tells he what to do about it. Some people might not fully agree with the ideas in the book, but they did help me understand why my talking frustrated my H, since it made him feel that he had to do something to fix it. Sometimes it would be so frustrating he would go into a rage. Sometimes it was so tiring to him, he would actually zone out or fall asleep. I also think this might be an explanation for how BPD can different in men and women. Men who have issues with deregulation might make huge efforts to not be emotional, with the exeption of the ST and rages, since those may have been the acceptable "male" emotions modeled for them. Women may be more likely to express the whole range.

I don't know how well your wife can keep herself intact with having "deep talk". With my H, I have decided it isn't possible as it is so uncomfortable for him, it isn't effective. That doesn't mean I don't wish for it, but that I have to accept it for what it is. We get along better if our talk is not directed towards us, but about politics, the kids, a movie or TV show. My H can talk about how he feels and what he thinks about that. To me, deep talk are the subjects near and dear to us, and are far more triggering: Hopes and dreams for now, the future, spirituality, sex, our childhood feelings , our families.

I have heard that men prefer to connect through sex, and women prefer to connect through talking. Both are connecting, however, for a woman, the talking is an important part of that.  I think, when talking about "deep subjects" it is helpful for the man to listen, express how he feels when it is appropriate, but to avoid giving advice or saying "why don't you, you should... " In fact, avoiding the "you" word is often helpful.


If any of this sounds sexist or stereotypical, I don't mean it in that sense. I am basing it off Men are from Mars... .However I know that there are exceptions and that this model may not work for everyone. It seems to work for me, since my H's dad was a stern invalidating macho type and that was my H's role model. It was impossible to have any kind of conversation with him unless it was about one of his interests. Feelings were not something people discussed in that home.

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4kidz
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2015, 09:45:09 AM »

she sees a Life Coach. She used to see therapists but stopped that a while ago. My take is that the therapists may have brought up the other side of an issue she felt deeply about. As soon as someone questioned her thought process she was out... I agree with your statement in that she seems to be looking for an apology or fix. Its so disheartening because if anyone deserves an apology for things said/done in the past its me. But that's a whole different story. Whenever I try to bring up a deep issue it unquestionably ends up in an exhaustive circle and with me needing toi validate the rage and accusations... .Seems the more I talk about "superficial "things the more she pulls away... Not sure which way to go at this point. Do I let her eventually let her come back to me by backing off? Or do I continue to try and engage in deep conversations that I struggle bringing up no less talking about...
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4kidz
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2015, 09:57:55 AM »

thanks MAX and Notwendy for your feedback. I would love to talk to her about the frustration/hurt and shame I feel because of the way I am being treated. However I know this would end up going know where but to hell. I am always being told by her to "work on myself, learn to love myself". I believe her expectations on that I talk about how I am doing that. However if I felt like she cared I would feel SO much better... .
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Notwendy
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2015, 09:58:57 AM »

"Whenever I try to bring up a deep issue it unquestionably ends up in an exhaustive circle and with me needing toi validate the rage and accusations... .Seems the more I talk about "superficial "things the more she pulls away... Not sure which way to go at this point. Do I let her eventually let her come back to me by backing off? Or do I continue to try and engage in deep conversations that I struggle bringing up no less talking about... "


This is similar to what happens to us, and it wouldn't surprise me if my H saw this the same way. However, when I bring up deep subjects, I get the circular talking and raging. On the rare occasion that he seems to be open to the idea a little, it seems that everything that I suppressed talking about to keep the peace just spills out. I also feel anger towards the way he has treated me at times. ( I get the raging and the ST but I don't do it). I think sometimes he keeps his distance from me in order not to face the issues in the relationship. I don't pull away when he talks about superficial things, but sometimes I tune out over it, since it seems so superficial- it's akward when all we talk about is politics or something like that. My H is aware of my need to talk, so sometimes I think he believes that just saying words to me fills that. He tries. If I bring up "deep talk" it feels very invalidating and critical to him as I think he is doing the best he can in his own way.

Your wife may feel that by talking superficially to her, you are avoiding her feelings. I can imagine that spending hours dealing with her feelings is probably overwhelming and maybe not productive. I also found that having deep talk with my BPD mother is not very productive as anything I might reveal to her during those sessions may be used as some kind of "evidence" against me in a rage. I have found that my H does the same thing to me, which is another reason I don't think it is productive. Maybe someone in his family did that to him, which is why he may avoid the topic with me.

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Notwendy
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2015, 10:05:13 AM »

My "need" for deep talk was actually a deep need to be validated. I was raised by a BPD mom and a Caretaker dad. Basically my mom was the focus of the family. What I was to them was whatever they decided to make up about me. I felt invisible. I had a deep need to be validated in an intimate relationship.

I really hear you when you say " If I felt like she cared, I would feel so much better". I feel that way too. However what has really decreased my own need for "deep talk" and validation is the work I have done in 12 step co-dependency groups and ACOA where we do talk about our feelings as well as learn to care more about ourselves and validate ourselves. It does a lot to overcome the issues we deal with at home. It also is a great place to "practice" deep talk if one is not good at it, because it is safe- nobody will rage at you there, and confidential.

By taking care of my own emotional needs better, I feel I need the validations from my H less. It makes me better able to stay calm in the face of emotional challenges at home.

Taking care of ourselves seems to make a big difference. I can recommend it for you because I think it helps everyone in a difficult relationship.

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downwhim
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2015, 10:11:29 AM »

According to Borderlines for Dummies a book I was reading a few days ago. Silent treatment is abuse. It disrupts intimacy and trust. There is nothing you can do if your partner wont talk. Happened to me too.

I bet these deep conversations she wants will all be about what she wants and at this point she is too afraid to bring them up. With time she will. Be prepared as they are usually attacking... .
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4kidz
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2015, 10:24:43 AM »

[Your wife may feel that by talking superficially to her, you are avoiding her feelings. I can imagine that spending hours dealing with her feelings is probably overwhelming and maybe not productive.


    I agree with that 100%. And I am willing to talk to her in an open and caring way. However she is not open to that. She wants to know how I am working on myself, learning to love myself. So I am left with trying to bring up things I am working on. When the reality is I need to feel loved and important to her. If I feel that I would be in such a better place. I hate the fact that what she does or doesn't do, says or doesn't say so dominates my mindset. If only I could learn to separate those emotions and take care of myself I would begin to feel better...                                                                
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Notwendy
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2015, 10:36:51 AM »

I don't know if this is a guy thing or not, but I think it may be harder for guys to ask for help. I knew my FOO was a mess, and also that there were difficulties in my marriage. I think all of us in stressful relationships need healthy outside support- sane people to talk to and help us stay sane in this. I know that my situation- with a raging, critical H and no outside support resulted in my becoming depressed.

I looked to my H for the validation and love I needed, but in what seems to be a common pattern, we end up with people who are not able to give it to us. There really isn't a good choice. Some leave, some choose someone else ( and in cases this person is disordered too) or we learn to fill our own needs as much as possible through therapy, friends and building interests of our own. Also, if we have a stronger sense of self, it is easier to not lose that sense of self in their world.
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4kidz
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2015, 10:56:31 AM »

I definitely see myself slowly becoming depressed. The things I typically enjoy to do I am starting to struggle to do. I do not have much support ( unfortunately my choice). I feel I am trying to hide the fact that my marriage is so dysfunctional. Yet I know that my wife has a close group of friends that she shares almost everything with. In a way I am jealous of that and in another way I wish one, or some of them would wake her up to the fact that she has a husband that adores her and wants nothing more than to remain married in a healthy loving way. In some way advise her that perhaps her way of thinking may be a bit off or extreme and stop validating her. ( Do not see this happening but I can dream). Really need to learn to take care of myself better... Wish it were easy... .
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Notwendy
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2015, 11:05:59 AM »

Do you have kids? I see from your name that you do?

I hope you find a way to do this. I watched my father cover up for my mother's dysfunction. It affected me as a child and I became a Caretaker just like him. I loved my dad dearly and so did my kids. He's gone now. He was a good husband and father, but his marriage took a toll on him emotionally.

He was also in denial over my mom, and they were married over 60 years ago when there was no information on BPD and mental health issues were stigmatized. He had fewer choices than we do today. If I could say to you what I wish I'd say to him it would be to get help and support. There are a lot of men in my 12 step groups, and therapists who would understand. I try to take this advice. It is also a way to model for your kids that it is OK to ask for help.

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4kidz
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2015, 12:46:58 PM »

yes I have 4 natural children and 1 step child. They are all in their early 20s. Unfortunately they have all seen the ups/downs in our relationship. I try to explain to them some of whats going on and why I stay within the relationship. I try to explain BPD without mentioning it by name and assuring them that nothing has been diagnosed and that what I sense is wholly my opinion based on what I know... I do feel my children sense my pain and emotional exhaustion. The few times I am questioned about the relationship I explain to them that I love my wife unconditionally and could never walk away from someone that I love and may have an illness. At the same time I advise them NOT to follow in their fathers footsteps when it comes to relationships...
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Notwendy
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2015, 01:07:51 PM »

I hope you can find some help and support. My dad didn't leave my mom when we left home, but we left and it was just the two of them. He had a very fulfilling professional life outside the home, but I wish he had gotten some emotional support.
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4kidz
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2015, 01:28:52 PM »

notwendy- thank you for your support/advice- appreciated... .
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2015, 05:01:29 PM »

I definitely see myself slowly becoming depressed. The things I typically enjoy to do I am starting to struggle to do. I do not have much support ( unfortunately my choice). I feel I am trying to hide the fact that my marriage is so dysfunctional. Yet I know that my wife has a close group of friends that she shares almost everything with. In a way I am jealous of that and in another way I wish one, or some of them would wake her up to the fact that she has a husband that adores her and wants nothing more than to remain married in a healthy loving way. In some way advise her that perhaps her way of thinking may be a bit off or extreme and stop validating her. ( Do not see this happening but I can dream). Really need to learn to take care of myself better... Wish it were easy... .

I feel like I could have written portions of this. I have hidden the fact that I am miserable in my marriage for years. I put on such a good show because the things that I was thinking and feeling didn't make a whole lot of sense. How could we spend so much time together yet feel so disconnected? How could we have so many conversations yet I still walked away feeling confused and had more questions than when the conversation began?

Keep in mind that your wife's friends are validating her based on what she is telling them. Heck, if you heard her story and didn't know that she was talking about YOU, you would probably agree with her and validate her. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) I read some messages that my husband had between himself and some chick he was talking to at the time. WOW, if I was that other chick, I would have felt so sorry for my husband because his wife was soo horrible. What he portrayed was so far from reality. At the time, I was really, really hurt. Now, I look back on it and chuckle a bit.

The conversations are improving a bit. In part because I have been trying to take the lessons to heart and try to do better and not being reactive. Really though, I don't feel like we made true progress in the communication department until my husband's sponsor told him to quit being so defensive and to give me space to feel my feelings and talk about them. Prior to that, my husband took everything I said personally. He still does the circular stuff but that is easier to deal with IF it doesn't venture into the realm of confrontation and conflict.
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4kidz
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2015, 11:56:39 AM »

part of the trustration is that from what i know other peopleher that they know i love her and that he ( me) is a real nice guy. Her response is that i know he loves me, he takes care of me, he provides for me BUT I do not FEEL loved. I am no Casanova nor am I the greatest communicator but I do my best to make her feel loved... Frustrating... .

      Also- some of the deeper conversations we have had lately seem to lead to her being more caring... .until the next day and then its back to the silence/distance... .  Of well... Onward I march- not willing to give up... .
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Notwendy
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2015, 12:34:41 PM »

There is some literature on "love languages" I think both religious and secular sources, about how different people "feel" love. Other than the obvious for my H- (sex)- he feels love by having me do things for him like cook dinner, affectionate touch, back rubs. Deep talking is just miserable for him.

Talking is one of my love languages, but I also have to realize that my H shows his love in other ways- so I am not going to get talking, probably ever. However, I can still feel loved.



One thing you can ask your wife is what, besides talking, means love to her- backrubs? small presents? However, if she can't love herself, it may not be possible for her to feel loved no matter what.
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