"I think you are lying and will check when I get home"... is what she said...

[formflier]

So... I'm still sorting this out in my head... .so I'll just tell the story in my rambling style... and hope for some direction from you guys.

I've been sick for a few days... .woke up feeling great.  Asked wife if she wanted to go for a walk with me.  She drug her feet getting ready... but we went.  I told her I felt good and wanted to go for a walk.

Anyway... .a minute out the door... .the questions started about why go for a walk.  She seemed calm... but the questions seemed "probing" to me.  I told her I had already answered that question... .but would be happy to answer again.  That I felt good and wanted to walk and "loosen up" in the morning. 

W:"Why didn't you walk earlier... ?"

FF:"I didn't feel like it... was sick... "

W:  "So why now... ?"

FF:  "I don't know if I have any more to add to what I've already said... "

some quiet time walking... couple minutes

FF:  "I hope to get a good walking habit going again.  My weight is down after sickness... and at my last physical my weight was my biggest issue the dr brought up... ."

W:  "but that appointment was months ago... .why now... "

FF:  "That appointment was less than two weeks ago... .I've been sick a bunch since then... "

W:  "Well at your last dr appointment your weight was an issue and you haven't walked much since then... "

FF:  "That's simply not true... ."

W:  "Your last appointment was months ago and weight was issue then... ."

FF:  "My last appointment... .before the one a couple weeks ago... .was over a year ago... .I'm confused... .what appointments are you talking about... "

silence and walking

FF:  I'm grumpy about FF daughter not telling me that she stopped taking medicine for asthma.  I've been asking her each day how it's going... I think she should mention it.  I would like to have consulted doctor before stopping the medicine.

W:  She had a reaction... .what was she supposed to do

FF:  Mention it to us... so we can call doctor.  That's why I asked her several times a day if she was ok... how her cough was... etc etc... .so she had a chance to talk to us.  I hadn't heard about the rash.

W:  So you asked her how she was doing yesterday?

FF:  Yes... I did

W:  I think you are lying and I will ask FF daughter when we get home

I turned and walked the other way to go back home.  I didn't look back.

She walked up behind me as was grumbing... .venting... .I didn't hear half of what she was saying. 

I had decided to go home.  As we got close she told me... ."I'm going home... you go on and have your walk... "  I didn't respond.

I walked in door... .stretched out... .did some situps.

She came back in room and I started a conversation about something else.  She was fairly responsive... .

So... .What the heck? 

I think that I should have cut the conversation or the walk at the first time that she asked a repetitive question.  That is usually a sign that something is up.

Any ideas?

I want to find time later when it is calm and address this with her. 

There was no yelling... .no "abusive tone"... .maybe a slight edge or something to her. 

[EaglesJuju]

FF,

It seems like she feels that you are withholding things and not communicating. PwBPD tend to over analyze things (hypersensitivity) that may be mundane or innocuous as a walk. It is like they feel that there is a hidden agenda.

Does talking about medical issues or doctors trigger her?

[MaroonLiquid]

It sounds to me like there is a hidden undertone also.  As if you are hiding something.  I won't try and figure out what our wives are thinking, however, it could be that the old "affair" issue could be going through her mind.  You are only walking to "see someone".  Just a thought.  The issue with your daughter's asthma seems like it was a way to get you into a circular argument and make herself feel better.  She feels bad for thinking you may be doing something wrong, and projects her feelings of inadequacy on to you.  Thoughts?

[Notwendy]

Putting on my BPD translator ear muffs... .( really just guessing but who knows)

You could have decided to walk after the doctor mentioned your weight but you are walking now and not then, so there must be some reason you decided now:

To get in shape for someone else?  After all, you've been married for a while so if it was for your wife, then you would have already.


And asking about your daughter's asthma was to change the subject because you are hiding something.

OK taking them off now... .

[maxsterling]

My first thought:  "Good grief."

Ain't it so often just BIZARRE subjects and accusations that you couldn't in your wildest imagination anticipate would be a problem?  I really have no clue here, but clearly something is up.  It sounds like you correctly identified that things were about to go downhill, and they did.  I think rather than turn around sooner, would have been better to recognize earlier and not gone for a walk with her at all.   After a few incidents with her dysregulating during a drive or a walk, I look for any potential red flags before I agree to go. 

[thatwasthat]

I'm normally on the leaving board, but this thread really reminds me of my ex.

What you brought up is something that always puzzled me, especially when I still wasn't aware what exactly was wrong with our rs.

Especially the fact that she is very high functioning made it difficult for me to understand and was confusing. Why would someone like her start probing over absolutely mundane "decisions"  (that is actually what I often told her, that she seems to see things as conscious decisions on my part when in fact they're just things that happened to be done a certain or different way.) I couldn't wrap my head around why something that happens dozens of times every day warrants probing.

I always said to myself that it's impossible that she's "perfect" and never changes anything, never has spontaneous ideas etc.

There were many, many examples for this. As soon as I changed my opinion on something really unimportant it was on.

I'm not even getting into "bigger"  decisions. I had one drink every night after work. One day I decided I might as well scratch that one... .She was all over it. Why don't you have your drink anymore?

To get to the point... .I think we shouldn't get confused about how insecure they actually are. Especially when they are high functioning. I'm convinced that, as previously mentioned, they suspect some hidden agenda. They are scared.  Abandonment.

Another factor might be that they don't like "change." Anything that strays from the routine is scary to them.

[Notwendy]

Change is hard, but it may also be fear of abandonment and projection.

My H is uncomfortable when I take on a new interest. He accuses me of getting so involved that I ignore him as if somehow I can't do both. He sometimes brings them up and says "I was so absorbed". That seemed odd, because even when I had a strong interest in something, I was still taking care of the kids, home, and even working part time. Once we had an argument about retiring somewhere where I could pursue an interest of mine and he said" If we do that you will leave me all alone to pursue it", but I had no intentions of doing that and I haven't done that.

Ironically, it is my H who does that. He has gotten so absorbed in his work that he was barely home. If he takes up a new hobby, he does it whenever he can, leaving me and the kids on our own. He would even do this during family vacations- doing something on his own while the kids and I stayed alone. Once he got into an exercise routine, every evening, for hours. So finally, I started doing things in the evening- classes, meetings. Then he got upset because I wasn't home. Basically, he wanted me at home while he was working out by himself. So I figured that his "you will leave me for your interest" may be a projection or just a fear.

Maybe your wife thinks you will be walking all the time, excluding her and maybe leave her... ?

[Notwendy]

Not to hijack the thread, but is anyone familiar with this? My H is fine pursuing his interests for hours and leaving me alone. However, he can't stand being alone in the house when I am not there. ( I don't mean leaving him with the kids- I mean alone, by himself when I am out doing something.) This doesn't mean he's interacting with me. He does sometimes, but he's content to do his own thing by himself, with me there too.  On the other hand, I love having some time in the house to myself.

[maxsterling]

Not to hijack the thread, but is anyone familiar with this? My H is fine pursuing his interests for hours and leaving me alone. However, he can't stand being alone in the house when I am not there. ( I don't mean leaving him with the kids- I mean alone, by himself when I am out doing something. On the other hand, I love having some time in the house to myself.

In the case of my wife, I think she hates being alone, period.  But, I think it is more agonizing for her when we are both home and I am doing something else without her.  If I am at work, she's lonely and miserable, but she recognizes I am at work.  If I am home and have house projects to do, she feels rejection because I have now CHOSEN to do something without her.

[Notwendy]

That makes sense. My H has said that he wanted me to do what I wanted to do when he was at work, but be available when he was home. That's true to an extent, and we can spend time together but it also meant "be home while I ignore you and do my own thing" too. I also get it that he has things he needs to do outside of work and I'm OK with that. I want him to enjoy his hobbies. It's just that he doesn't want me to be outside the house when he's home, even if he isn't with me that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me although I can understand it from a security standpoint and that I would be there if he wanted something. However, it really bothers him when I do something. I do try to be home and I am most of the time, but some things are scheduled in evening hours.

Maybe FF's wife was feeling left out of the decision to walk and wanted him to tell her about it.

[ColdEthyl]

Putting on my BPD translator ear muffs... .( really just guessing but who knows)

You could have decided to walk after the doctor mentioned your weight but you are walking now and not then, so there must be some reason you decided now:

To get in shape for someone else?  After all, you've been married for a while so if it was for your wife, then you would have already.


And asking about your daughter's asthma was to change the subject because you are hiding something.

OK taking them off now... .

That was my first impression as well. When I mention wanting to lose weight, get healthy, etc with my dBPDh, sure as sh** he thinks I want to tone up for some other dude, especially now since he's going through this ED issue. In reality, I just want to be alive longer.

I've been trying to get him to exercise with me since he keeps complaining about the weight he has gained from not working but... .yeah... .doesn't happen.

[vortex of confusion]

I will give you a little post mortem on the conversation. 

I've been sick for a few days... .woke up feeling great.  Asked wife if she wanted to go for a walk with me.  She drug her feet getting ready... but we went.  I told her I felt good and wanted to go for a walk.

W:"Why didn't you walk earlier... ?"

FF:"I didn't feel like it... was sick... "

Would it have been possible to turn this back on her and say something like: "Is there a reason that I should have walked earlier?"

W:  "So why now... ?"

FF:  "I don't know if I have any more to add to what I've already said... "

Perhaps you could have said something like, "Would you help me understand the relevance of my timing?" (or something like that).

FF:  "I hope to get a good walking habit going again.  My weight is down after sickness... and at my last physical my weight was my biggest issue the dr brought up... ."

W:  "but that appointment was months ago... .why now... "

FF:  "That appointment was less than two weeks ago... .I've been sick a bunch since then... "

You invalidated her by contradicting her recollection of when your last appointment was. Does the fact that it was months ago or a week ago really matter? What was your reason for correcting her? Even if the appointment was a week ago, why now and not then? Really, the answer doesn't matter. If she is asking out of true concern for your health, then would it be possible to validate her concerns for your health. If you have been sick, could it be the the sickness scared you into action a bit? I know that I have to work at not being defensive and trying to find the underlying concern rather than try to correct specific details like exactly when something did or didn't happen. That is a bit of a distraction.

W:  "Well at your last dr appointment your weight was an issue and you haven't walked much since then... "

FF:  "That's simply not true... ."

You were invalidating her again.  In her mind, it has been a couple of months since the last appointment. Have you walked much in the last couple of months? And, if as you say, your appointment was less than two weeks ago and you have been sick much of that time, then how and when did you get to go for walks?

W:  "Your last appointment was months ago and weight was issue then... ."

FF:  "My last appointment... .before the one a couple weeks ago... .was over a year ago... .I'm confused... .what appointments are you talking about... "

Sounds like you got distracted by focusing on the specifics (when the appointment occurred) rather than looking at the potential underlying feelings.

FF:  I'm grumpy about FF daughter not telling me that she stopped taking medicine for asthma.  I've been asking her each day how it's going... I think she should mention it.  I would like to have consulted doctor before stopping the medicine.

W:  She had a reaction... .what was she supposed to do

FF:  Mention it to us... so we can call doctor.  That's why I asked her several times a day if she was ok... how her cough was... etc etc... .so she had a chance to talk to us.  I hadn't heard about the rash.

W:  So you asked her how she was doing yesterday?

FF:  Yes... I did

W:  I think you are lying and I will ask FF daughter when we get home

This part of the conversation probably shouldn't have happened because it sounds like she was already a bit out of sorts from the earlier conversation. Frankly, it sounds like she was trying to bait you. You didn't take it, which is a good thing. It might be helpful to look at what kind of agreement is set up about kids' medical issues. Are you routinely involved in kids' medical issues or is there some kind of quiet understanding that kids' health stuff is your wife's domain. It sounds like there might be some issues surrounding communication with what is going on with the kids.

Any ideas?

I want to find time later when it is calm and address this with her. 

What is that you want to address with her? Your health issues and doctor visits? Your daughter's health issues? Overall communication? The way she interacted with you on the walk?

There seemed to be a lot of things that came up in the situation that you described. Before addressing any of it with her, it might be good to be clear on what the specific problem is.

[eyvindr]

Just validating this -- very similar to my experiences with my ex. Absolutely exasperating, and then annoyingly boring to deal with.

What you brought up is something that always puzzled me, especially when I still wasn't aware what exactly was wrong with our rs.

Especially the fact that she is very high functioning made it difficult for me to understand and was confusing. Why would someone like her start probing over absolutely mundane "decisions"  (that is actually what I often told her, that she seems to see things as conscious decisions on my part when in fact they're just things that happened to be done a certain or different way.) I couldn't wrap my head around why something that happens dozens of times every day warrants probing.

Yep. Something as simple as stopping at the grocery store on the way home from work on a Tuesday, instead of on Wednesday, when I usually went. Could be anything.

There were many, many examples for this. As soon as I changed my opinion on something really unimportant it was on. I'm not even getting into "bigger"  decisions. I had one drink every night after work. One day I decided I might as well scratch that one... .She was all over it. Why don't you have your drink anymore?

Yep. In my case, inevitably followed with something like, ":)id your friends not decide to go this time?" or "Are you afraid I will find out about something?" or "Why did you go to that place anyway -- were you meeting someone there or something? I mean, it's ok if you did, I do the same thing, but I believe in honesty in a relationship, and I tell you everything, so I expect you to tell me everything, too. I just would like you to let me know instead of hiding it from me and making me ask you about it, or pretending that you went alone." I can replay stuff like that in my mind when I need to reinforce to myself how much better off I am now.

To get to the point... .I think we shouldn't get confused about how insecure they actually are. Especially when they are high functioning. I'm convinced that, as previously mentioned, they suspect some hidden agenda. They are scared.  Abandonment. Another factor might be that they don't like "change." Anything that strays from the routine is scary to them.

Again, yep. Any change is viewed as some shift in your world, which very much in their mind can imply that changes are to come for them, too.

In my case, in the end, I guess her suspicions were correct. I couldn't take the insanity anymore, and I left her. Odd how they manage to effect the exact opposite of what they most want, isn't it? So much wasted energy. Life's too short.

[eyvindr]

Many pwBPD hate to be alone.

Not to hijack the thread, but is anyone familiar with this? My H is fine pursuing his interests for hours and leaving me alone. However, he can't stand being alone in the house when I am not there. ( I don't mean leaving him with the kids- I mean alone, by himself when I am out doing something.) This doesn't mean he's interacting with me. He does sometimes, but he's content to do his own thing by himself, with me there too.  On the other hand, I love having some time in the house to myself.

I think a lot if it has to do with their very tenuous sense of self. Without someone else around to validate their existence, and their worth -- without someone to mirror -- they feel like they don't exist. I can see where that would be terrifying. But it's totally in their heads, obviously.

[eyvindr]

BH vortex --

Just wanted to clarify -- are you being serious?

I will give you a little post mortem on the conversation. 

FF:  "That appointment was less than two weeks ago... .I've been sick a bunch since then... "

You invalidated her by contradicting her recollection of when your last appointment was. Does the fact that it was months ago or a week ago really matter? What was your reason for correcting her? Even if the appointment was a week ago, why now and not then? Really, the answer doesn't matter. If she is asking out of true concern for your health, then would it be possible to validate her concerns for your health. If you have been sick, could it be the the sickness scared you into action a bit? I know that I have to work at not being defensive and trying to find the underlying concern rather than try to correct specific details like exactly when something did or didn't happen. That is a bit of a distraction.

The above is very true to life. But, seriously -- who has the patience to do this in every single mundane conversation with someone they've decided to spend their life with, every single time? I couldn't -- it was a major factor in my decision to leave. I simply would like to be able to talk casually with my partner, without an agenda, without it disintegrating into some dsyfunctional mud of confusion and hurt feelings. And I refuse to believe, as my ex valiantly tried to convince me -- that my expectations are anything but absolutely normal.

[ColdEthyl]

BH vortex --

Just wanted to clarify -- are you being serious?

I will give you a little post mortem on the conversation. 

FF:  "That appointment was less than two weeks ago... .I've been sick a bunch since then... "

You invalidated her by contradicting her recollection of when your last appointment was. Does the fact that it was months ago or a week ago really matter? What was your reason for correcting her? Even if the appointment was a week ago, why now and not then? Really, the answer doesn't matter. If she is asking out of true concern for your health, then would it be possible to validate her concerns for your health. If you have been sick, could it be the the sickness scared you into action a bit? I know that I have to work at not being defensive and trying to find the underlying concern rather than try to correct specific details like exactly when something did or didn't happen. That is a bit of a distraction.

The above is very true to life. But, seriously -- who has the patience to do this in every single mundane conversation with someone they've decided to spend their life with, every single time? I couldn't -- it was a major factor in my decision to leave. I simply would like to be able to talk casually with my partner, without an agenda, without it disintegrating into some dsyfunctional mud of confusion and hurt feelings. And I refuse to believe, as my ex valiantly tried to convince me -- that my expectations are anything but absolutely normal.

The ones of us who are choosing to stay have that patience, or at least are trying to. I have that patience. I've learned to speak differently to my S10 because he is Asperger's... .I don't see much difference in learning another form of communication for my dBPDh.

[vortex of confusion]

BH vortex --

Just wanted to clarify -- are you being serious?

Yes, I am being serious. I am being a bit tongue in cheek and attempting to use humor in some places but I am very serious.

The above is very true to life. But, seriously -- who has the patience to do this in every single mundane conversation with someone they've decided to spend their life with, every single time? I couldn't -- it was a major factor in my decision to leave. I simply would like to be able to talk casually with my partner, without an agenda, without it disintegrating into some dsyfunctional mud of confusion and hurt feelings. And I refuse to believe, as my ex valiantly tried to convince me -- that my expectations are anything but absolutely normal.

I don't think anybody has the patience to do this in every single mundane conversation. This is ONE conversation (among many) that formflier brought to the boards to help get some perspective. I tried to do that based on my experiences and what I know from dealing with my situation. I don't analyze every single conversation with my spouse but I will seek feedback and try to analyze it if I walk away feeling particularly bothered by something. I can't change my partner. He is who he is. I can try to change my side of things and prevent things from disintegrating but that will only happen if I look at things on my side.

Formflier is committed to staying in his relationship and wants honest feedback so that is what I gave him.

[formflier]

 

Well... I just failed in trying to post a long reply.  Sigh.

VOC... thanks for taking that conversation apart... .I've got another one I will try to put up again. 

I've had a while of "normal"... .I need to track this better... .to try and see if there is a cycle.

Wondering if I should have pitched out earlier... .before the lying comment.

Somebody mentioned "probing"... .and that is exactly a great way to describe it.  I realized she was "probing"... .I need to figure out what to do at the first "probe".

I also need to get a straight answer (stop laughing at that)... .on if she wants to be corrected.  She says she does...   Corrected as in... .you were at the doctor two months ago...   According to her she wants to be corrected.

More in a bit

[eyvindr]

Points taken, folks. My apologies if anyone was offended. I do likely need to stick to the "Leaving" and "Inventory" boards, but sometimes some of these stories are so familiar I just feel compelled to reply.

Some of this stuff admittedly still pushes my buttons. In other words, it triggers me. I do truly admire anyone who has the patience to stick with a partner wBPD. I wish I could have. I did truly love her, but the behaviors that stemmed from the disease drove me insane, and she was either incapable of or unwilling to work on them. I couldn't live with it, and unfortunately, it's a pkg deal. You are all brave and compassionate people, and I wish you the best.

Peace.

[vortex of confusion]

Wondering if I should have pitched out earlier... .before the lying comment.

My two cents is that you should have pitched out when she was dragging her feet to get ready. When my husband starts dragging his feet and dawdling when I suggest we do something together, there is a good chance that it isn't going to have a good ending because he doesn't want to do it to begin with.

[ColdEthyl]

Points taken, folks. My apologies if anyone was offended. I do likely need to stick to the "Leaving" and "Inventory" boards, but sometimes some of these stories are so familiar I just feel compelled to reply.

Some of this stuff admittedly still pushes my buttons. In other words, it triggers me. I do truly admire anyone who has the patience to stick with a partner wBPD. I wish I could have. I did truly love her, but the behaviors that stemmed from the disease drove me insane, and she was either incapable of or unwilling to work on them. I couldn't live with it, and unfortunately, it's a pkg deal. You are all brave and compassionate people, and I wish you the best.

Peace.

No offense on my end, eyvindr. I apologize if I came off that way, I tend to be blunt in thought and speech.

It's not a relationship for everyone, and if my dBPDh was like what some of the others on this board put up with I don't think I could be here either. I think he's a bit lower on the spectrum compared to some others.

You made the choice that was right for you, and that's all any of us can do

[formflier]

Points taken, folks. My apologies if anyone was offended. I do likely need to stick to the "Leaving" and "Inventory" boards, but sometimes some of these stories are so familiar I just feel compelled to reply.

Some of this stuff admittedly still pushes my buttons. In other words, it triggers me. I do truly admire anyone who has the patience to stick with a partner wBPD. I wish I could have. I did truly love her, but the behaviors that stemmed from the disease drove me insane, and she was either incapable of or unwilling to work on them. I couldn't live with it, and unfortunately, it's a pkg deal. You are all brave and compassionate people, and I wish you the best.

Peace.

Please feel free to stick around and tell you story and participate.  As long as you don't give a direct "run" message... .you should be good posting over here.

My wife is a bit in the "incapable and unwilling" to work on it.  She likes to point the finger at me... .rarely points it at herself.  She does seem to be ok with working on "us" right now in MC.  I try to stay away from laying blame on her... .but I also am trying hard not to enable bad behavior.

My "tactic" is that if I don't participate in unhealthy conversations... .she will get frustrated and hopefully change.

I do see it working some... .and one of the reasons I like getting "backup" on these boards... .is it helps me be objective.

See things that I don't normally see.

[formflier]

You made the choice that was right for you, and that's all any of us can do

Well said!

bpdfamily is about many things.  One thing is to give the power of choice back to the "nons" that are here.  Many make a choice to stay... .many make a choice to leave... .but we have all taken the power back from the "crazyness"... .and started to put order back in our lives!

[eyvindr]

Thanks for understanding, guys. All of your responses are what makes bpdfamily a genuinely unique and compassionate place. *hugs*

[formflier]

 

So... now back to try and repost what I somehow messed up posting before... .another "blow by blow" of our next "interesting" conversation.

So... I am concerned about medical care decisions in our house.  Today's doctor visit confirmed that my wife and I need to get on the same page.

my daughter... .on her own... .decided that the prednisone was causing a rash and quit taking it.  I don't think she involved my wife in it... .but my wife is supportive of her... .thinks she did "right thing".  I haven't been able to have a coherent conversation with my wife to figure out who knew what and when.

Here goes... .

I call my wife when leaving the dr office... .and on way to store... .pleasantries... .get list of goodies to get at store... .

FF:  "Hey...  I hope we can get together on how to approach ff daughter this evening.  .ff daughter's breathing test was down 8%.  dr got after her about stopping the prednisone without checking with him.  Says it had nothing to do with rash... .prednisone will make rashes go away... .not cause them.  I haven't said anything to her since dr got after here... but I think we should

w:  "how can this be... ?"

FF:  "he explained it... .big long medical name.  It was due to antibiotic.  He said best advice is to "treat through it"... .and keep taking all meds... .rash stopped because she finished the antibiotics.  The good news is he said this does not mean she is allergic to the antibiotic... .we don't need to report this.

w:   "so what did he say to do... "

FF:  He gave her new course of prednisone... .we have to start over.  He thinks that should clear up lungs.  She most likely has something else going on too.  He stressed to take all of it.  I asked him specifically what to do if a rash comes back... and he said to call in immediately before changing any dosing.

w:  well... that's what we did.  It's common sense... to stop taking something if it causes a rash... .

ff:  that's not what we did... .ff daughter just stopped taking it... I didn't find out till a couple days later. I really think we need to follow the dr instructions...

w:  It's common sense to stop until you can talk to the dr

ff:  I disagree with this... but I hope we can get together on how we will approach ff daughter this evening

w:  So what you are saying is it's my fault...

ff:   I'm not able to have a conversation with you when you misstate my position... .I would like to talk to you later about this... .have a good day. (click)

I called her 10 minutes later from the store... .totally fine.

Came home... totally fine.

I don't have any idea if my wife is involved in the decision to stop taking the drug or not.  I'm not going to drop this... .we are not drs... .and shouldn't play dr.

[formflier]

 

Do I think this particular incident is dangerous... .no... .not really.

It's the "attitude" that bothers me... .a very casual disregard for doing what a dr says.

There is also stuff with this daughter... .she... .out of all the kids... is most "triggering" to my wife. 

Not sure... .

This same daughter that was getting yelled at and I intervened... .was big subject of last MC.

[vortex of confusion]

The latest conversation that you posted makes my head hurt. 

How old is the daughter that is having this issue? I wonder if you can have a quiet conversation with her on the side. It sounds like you are the one that took your daughter to the doctor.

I agree with your wife that IF I think I am having a reaction to medicine, I stop taking it immediately. So, I am wondering if it can be approached as, "You are right. The logical thing to do is stop taking the medicine. That was fine THAT time. Moving forward, the doctor says to NOT do it again. This isn't about fault. That is what happened in the past and this is what needs to happen moving forward."

If the goal is to get her to understand that your daughter should not stop taking the medicine, then try to keep the conversation focused on that instead of trying to understand how things happened in the past as it seems that things are sketchy at best.

[formflier]

 

Daughter is a few days shy of 18.  Generally has good head on her shoulders.  Sickness lately has knocked her down pretty good... .so she is not thinking as clearly as normal. 

My goal was to get wife and I on same page so we don't give mixed messages to daughter.  I don't want to punish... just let her know... .mom and I should have known when you stopped taking the meds... .we all should have called immediately.

VOC... as far as agreeing... .I'm with you if you add... ."call immediately"... .but... waiting 2-3 days.  No... .NO!

And... maybe to clarify the story more... I think I left this out.  She had the reaction for 2-3 days... and just itched... thought it was weird.  And didn't tell us.  Decided after a couple of days of reaction... .it must be the prednisone... .and stopped taking the prednisone. 

So... .it didn't even follow your logic.  Take pill... get reaction... .stop taking pill.  She... .took pill... had reaction... .dealt with reaction a few days... .(kept it secret)... .decided to stop taking meds... .(kept that secret)... .and all the while I was asking her how things were going... better worse.

I know for sure a couple of days I asked if "anything new".

Then... .tie this in with my wife claiming I was lying about asking ff daughter about her status... .

Yeah... .it makes my head hurt to.

At this point... .I still don't know if my wife was involved in decision for ff daughter to stop taking meds... or if she is just saying she agrees with that decision after the fact.

Maybe I start the conversation off with the "going forward joint decision" part... .and if that goes well... maybe try to understand the past.

But... .somehow there needs to be some parenting here... .

Having reaction to meds and keeping it a secret... .not good.

Deciding to continue meds while having a reaction without talking to dr... .not good

deciding to quit meds while having reaction without taking to dr... .not good

The theme in all the decisions... .that I think is the bad part... is to keep the secret from the dr.  Or that adjusting meds without dr knowledge is ok... .

sigh... .   

[eyvindr]

That's a great approach, vortex.

ff -- I wonder it if would help to probe a little bit more with your daughter to determine why she stopped taking the prednisone. My ex had asthma, and she was hyper-vigilant about managing it -- which I think was a good thing, though it was pretty hard to tell whether the asthma was as bad as she indicated it was. Lest you think I sound like a thougthless boor, let me explain why I wound up doubting her claims. She periodically claimed to try to go off her asthma medicine, b/c she got tired of spending money on all of the scripts, and having to structure her life around taking her meds. But she never lasted more than a day, tops -- and I couldn't ever see any visible signs of a flare-up. But she swore it was happening -- and there's only so much you can doubt someone's claims, especially if you love them, worry about them, are concerned for them and certainly don't want them to suffer needlessly.

Anyway, he was terrified of prednisone -- because the first thing she did whenever she was Rx'd anything was to go straight to the side effects listing. Anyway, I wouldn't hold that against anyone, including her. But, when we had our first arguments, after everything blew over and we'd made up, she used to apologize for her behavior -- and attribute it to prednisone, which can potentially affect mental functioning. That's documented.

But, it made me wonder when I read your post. Maybe taking the predi (as we called it) causes your daughter some weird mental effects, and she doesn't like them, but they give her an alert, and she made up the thing about the rash instead of saying "it makes me feel like running down the street and screaming" -- ? Just a thought.

Or, maybe she shared those feelings with mom, and mom helped her come up with the rash story? I don't know -- maybe she really did think that she had a rash. Doctors don't know everything.

[eyvindr]

I agree with everything you say here. Incidentally, my ex adjusted her dosages all the time. And any time I inquired about it, whether it was safe, or recommended, she always said that she'd talked to her doctor(s), they told her it was alright, and "don't worry -- you know I'd never take any risks with something as important as my health."

Having reaction to meds and keeping it a secret... .not good.

Deciding to continue meds while having a reaction without talking to dr... .not good

deciding to quit meds while having reaction without taking to dr... .not good

The theme in all the decisions... .that I think is the bad part... is to keep the secret from the dr.  Or that adjusting meds without dr knowledge is ok... .

sigh... .   

[formflier]

ff -- I wonder it if would help to probe a little bit more with your daughter to determine why she stopped taking the prednisone.

Yep... she was warned of the side effects... the mental ones.  To be on lookout for them.  I was in dr office when that was explained.  Was one of the reasons I kept asking her how she was. 

Note:  I get b$tched at a lot for asking too many questions... .or too specific.  So... while I wanted to ask... .are you having any reaction to the meds?... .or really question her... .I tried to give her the opportunity to use my asking... .to bring up issues.  I won't make that mistake again... .and I won't listen to complaints about me asking to many detailed questions.

It's about their health... .if that hurts my wife's feelings... or makes her dysreg... .I'll hand her a box of tissues... .and move on...

though it was pretty hard to tell whether the asthma was as bad as she indicated it was. 

I've got a touch of asthma... .as does my wife.  Mine is easy to control.  allergy shots did wonders.

We deal with this with several of our kids... .so getting on same page with wife is big deal. 

Back to my daughter.  When things are normal... .she is easiest to manage.  You would never know she has asthma.  However... .shen she gets sick... .she is the hardest to manage... .by far.  The coughing and wheezing are scarey.  This is validating by her breathing tests... .close to red zone.  And after screwing up her meds... it was 8% lower. 

Granted... .dr said it was scarey... .but not to point of permanent damage.  He wanted to put it in context... .but he made point that managing it properly was the key to staying away from "real damage"... .and you have to follow dr orders and communicate with dr to "manage it properly"

Anyway, he was terrified of prednisone --

yep... .doctor went over her story a couple times today... .and was emphatic that what she experienced was not prednisone... .  He asked her several ways about symptoms... .and "anything else"... .

Or, maybe she shared those feelings with mom, and mom helped her come up with the rash story? I don't know -- maybe she really did think that she had a rash. Doctors don't know everything.

Yeah... .at some point I'm curious to establish the role my wife played in this.  If I can get clear agreement going forward... .that we discuss med changes with doctors... .then I am less concerned about the exact details of this escapade.

I guess I don't understand the doctors "don't know everything"... .but one thing is for sure... .pwBPD that haven't been to medical school... .know even less about managing meds.  So... .I'll stick with the docs.

I should probably also say... .this doctor is an "asthma doctor"... not a GP.  The only thing we go to this guy for is allergy shots and asthma management.  Kinda the same thing... .

[123Phoebe]

So... I'm still sorting this out in my head... .so I'll just tell the story in my rambling style... and hope for some direction from you guys.

I've been sick for a few days... .woke up feeling great.  Asked wife if she wanted to go for a walk with me.  She drug her feet getting ready... but we went.  I told her I felt good and wanted to go for a walk.

Anyway... .a minute out the door... .the questions started about why go for a walk.  She seemed calm... but the questions seemed "probing" to me.  I told her I had already answered that question... .but would be happy to answer again.  That I felt good and wanted to walk and "loosen up" in the morning. 

W:"Why didn't you walk earlier... ?"

FF:"I didn't feel like it... was sick... "

W:  "So why now... ?"

FF:  "I don't know if I have any more to add to what I've already said... "

some quiet time walking... couple minutes

FF:  "I hope to get a good walking habit going again.  My weight is down after sickness... and at my last physical my weight was my biggest issue the dr brought up... ."

W:  "but that appointment was months ago... .why now... "

FF:  "That appointment was less than two weeks ago... .I've been sick a bunch since then... "

W:  "Well at your last dr appointment your weight was an issue and you haven't walked much since then... "

FF:  "That's simply not true... ."

W:  "Your last appointment was months ago and weight was issue then... ."

FF:  "My last appointment... .before the one a couple weeks ago... .was over a year ago... .I'm confused... .what appointments are you talking about... "

silence and walking

This sounds like a minor communication issue more than anything, imo.  Not really anything BPD about it.  Maybe even man/woman dynamics.

I'm wondering if as much as we're interested in understanding our partner's thought processes, the same doesn't go for them?

So why start walking now?

Was your weight an issue over a year ago or have you put on a little weight in the past year?

From what you've described, it sounds to me (or looks on the screen), that after being sick and taking a few pounds off the hard way, it prompted you to take what Dr said to heart; your weight was the biggest concern and now that you're feeling good, you're ready to take it seriously and do something about it.

Your wife "probed" and got that much out of you, when all you gave her with your first explanation was that "you felt good and wanted to go for a walk".  Then you seemed to get a little annoyed upon further questioning.  Every time she "probed", she was able to get a little more information out of you.

Do we not do that to our partners, also?  Why is it okay for us, but not for them?

[waverider]

Sounds like the basic issue is that your wife is afraid of being questioned/criticised by you, and so automatically covers up her involvement in the decision.

Then uses projection to accuse you of covering up.

This is then followed with avoidance of discussing it to further avoid any responsibility, as she knows you won't let it slide.

The issue itself is not significant in itself to her, it is simply avoidance of ownership.

Prednisone was another of those meds my partner abused and suffered severe side effects, I had forgotten about that one. I think it was swelling and heart rate. Think there was an ER OD admission on it once as well.

[Notwendy]

It's interesting. My H has used the term "probing" when I ask him questions. I also think it may be a man/woman thing. To me, the questioning is a form of reality checking. I don't have the capacity to read minds- I think it isn't a good thing to assume what someone is thinking, yet I think we do it a lot with each other.

When people say what they mean, and mean what they say, we don't have to do this, but with a spouse with a PD, sometimes we don't know what they mean. They also project- if they do something, they assume we are doing it too.

I prefer to be direct with people, but with my H, this can provoke rages, so I tend to keep things to myself. Since he has used the silent treatment, when I am not talking, he takes this to be me doing it- withdrawing, or rejecting me and he then does it back to me. He raged at me a few weeks ago, and since then, I have been very quiet- it takes me some time to recover from these incidents as they are very draining emotionally. My H has interpereted that as me not being interested in him physically and was sort of ignoring me the past few weeks, while I thought he was being punitive. So you can see how we get into those crazy loops of "mind reading" and reacting.

The reason that my questioning him "probing" is so triggering is that it comes from a place of fear in me. I learned in 12 step groups that any time we act out of fear, we are basically being selfish, protecting ourselves. Our partners can pick up on that, and we can too. Asking my H a question is like asking him "what is going on?" so I can be somewhat oriented to his emotions so that I don't set him off. In a similar way, your wife noticed a change in you, and it possibly triggered some fears in her. She needed to know more about why you chose to do something different as that was a form of reality checking for her, if her fears were talking to her. When my H is triggered by my questions, he resists them, which is frustrating for me as I don't mean them as being more than that. He hates "being probed" as he calls it.

My mother does a more extreme form of this. It feels as if she is constantly "probing" for something, information, or pushing emotional buttons. It takes a lot of energy to stay calm in her presence. I sometimes think that if her sense of  self is so unstable that she needs continuous feedback of what is going on. I think that people with a stronger sense of self still need this sometimes, but far less. Lastly, what triggers my H to be angry at me is when I act like a part of himself that he personally rejects. His role model was a tough military guy for whom being emotional or fearful was not acceptable. That makes sense in the military as it could be life threatening, but a relationship requires a full range of emotions- and a place where it is OK to be sad or scared.

One idea is that when your wife is "probing" is that she is feeling fearful and insecure, and needs a reality check that you do love her and are not getting in shape for someone else. I think this can also help someone for whom a feeling might seem like reality- and letting them know it is not.

[eyvindr]

Notwendy,

Those are some great insights -- your descriptions ring true to my experiences with my ex many times when what I thought were simple conversations suddenly got weird. Rings true to me.

Ev.

[formflier]

Sounds like the basic issue is that your wife is afraid of being questioned/criticised by you, and so automatically covers up her involvement in the decision.

She has said this before in counseling... .not maybe the covering up part... .but she does not "like" me going after facts... ."problem solving".  In counseling we've talking some about me trying to be nicer... .but I'm more holding to this is just part of life... .you have to assemble facts to solve a problem... .you have to ask questions to get facts... .

She is also big on "asking a question means xyz... ."... .I hate that... .abhor it.  If I ask a question... it means I would like to know the answer.  I won't prejudge the answer until I get it.

More later... gotta run

Then uses projection to accuse you of covering up.

This is then followed with avoidance of discussing it to further avoid any responsibility, as she knows you won't let it slide.

The issue itself is not significant in itself to her, it is simply avoidance of ownership.

Prednisone was another of those meds my partner abused and suffered severe side effects, I had forgotten about that one. I think it was swelling and heart rate. Think there was an ER OD admission on it once as well.

[Grey Kitty]

It's interesting. My H has used the term "probing" when I ask him questions. ... .I don't have the capacity to read minds- I think it isn't a good thing to assume what someone is thinking, yet I think we do it a lot with each other.

I've stumbled into the 'probing' question issue. I've also been accused of leading questions.

One thing to avoid at all costs is the sort of questions a lawyer asks of a witness.

Where the lawyer knows what corner he's trying to paint the witness into, and starts asking questions which are clearly directed in that direction, leading up to forcing the witness to admit that they were doing something wrong, being deceptive, contradicting themself, etc.

Even if I'm not really TRYING to do that to my wife, if it feels that way for her, things won't go well!

[Grey Kitty]

And back to the beginning (I'm showing up 4 pages in!) and FF's issues... .starting with a big picture comment:

You only have control over yourself, FF. Your only tool to change the mood in your household is to change YOUR behavior. You sound very frustrated over what your wife (and D18 also) are doing. That is understandable--it does sound difficult and frustrating. Please continue to share your feelings about it here!

But put yourself back on track--if you want to change those interactions, you can tell them that they need to do something different... .Do I even need to ask how that's been working for you so far? Or you can change your own behavior.

It's about their health... .if that hurts my wife's feelings... or makes her dysreg... .I'll hand her a box of tissues... .and move on...

Agreed--you don't mess around with health issues.

"I'll hand her a box of tissues" is NOT your best tool for dealing with your wife! Using the style of a military harda$$ officer doesn't work well with her!

Health issues are important enough for YOU to reach into your toolbox, and make sure you use the best tools you have to get the best possible outcomes, even if it is difficult for YOU or takes a few minutes longer. Reach for validation, instead of handing her the box of tissues.

Give both your wife and D18 credit for caring about health issues and trying to make the best choices they can at the time, and doing things for their own reasons which seemed good at the time. Be interested in what they are thinking and why they are doing things... .NOT JUST TO PROVE THEM WRONG!

I've been sick for a few days... .woke up feeling great.  Asked wife if she wanted to go for a walk with me.  She drug her feet getting ready... but we went.  I told her I felt good and wanted to go for a walk.

VOC & others did a great job of looking at the morning walk conversation. I've not got much to add, there, but back up before you went on the walk.

What was your real reason/motivation?

If you wanted to go for a walk for exercise, because you want to get healthy and lose weight, why involve your wife? If you are walking for yourself, just do it every morning for yourself! Involving your wife in that is a touch on the codependent / enmeshed side.

In that situation, I'd suggest saying something like "I'm going on a walk, would you like to join me?" or "I'm going for a walk this morning." Maybe you don't even need to say anything?

Or did you have another reason to want your wife on the walk with you?

[formflier]

Then uses projection to accuse you of covering up.

I suspect so... .because I think I'm more of a let's get the problem out there... so we can solve it... kinda guy.  Rather than cover up.

This is then followed with avoidance of discussing it to further avoid any responsibility, as she knows you won't let it slide.

Yeah... .I've tried to let more things slide... .so that the things that really matter... .such as this issue... .can get the attention they deserve. 

The temperature sure has come down in our r/s... .but I'm not sure we are more effective at "solving problems"... .or "communicating" about important issues like meds.

The issue itself is not significant in itself to her, it is simply avoidance of ownership.

Yep... .one of the frustrating things about pwBPD... .is that they seem to claim that others "made" them do things.  This seems to be along the same line of avoiding ownership

Prednisone was another of those meds my partner abused and suffered severe side effects, I had forgotten about that one. I think it was swelling and heart rate. Think there was an ER OD admission on it once as well.

Lovely... .this is our first experience with it... .asthma guy swears by it.  This morning my daughters cough seems worse. 

Because of the shenanigans with going on and off the drug... .I don't see many choices but to hang in there with this course of medicine for a few more days before calling dr back.  He warned it would take a few days.

[formflier]

Health issues are important enough for YOU to reach into your toolbox, and make sure you use the best tools you have to get the best possible outcomes, even if it is difficult for YOU or takes a few minutes longer. Reach for validation, instead of handing her the box of tissues.

Very good point... . maybe a SE SE SET... with the T being about following dr advice.

Give both your wife and D18 credit for caring about health issues and trying to make the best choices they can at the time, and doing things for their own reasons which seemed good at the time. Be interested in what they are thinking and why they are doing things... .NOT JUST TO PROVE THEM WRONG!

Yeah... I can see this... .but this gets into the parenting realm.  Parenting is about teaching kids a parents version of right and wrong.  They have a choice after they grow up to discard their parenting... .or to stick with what they have learned... .or to blend things.  I'm not going to budge on teaching my kids that "playing dr" after a doctor... .specialist even... .has given clear instructions.  Even gave her a paper to record when pills were taken each day... .and stressed the importance of it.  

If you disagree with a doctor... .get a second opinion from another doctor... .and a third if needed.

I have no idea if my wife was involved... .or just "backing up" the daughter.  There is a lesson here for daughter... .and for the rest of the family.

What was your real reason/motivation?

Walks "usually" go good... are a positive thing.  Sure... they have gone bad before... .but I'd say... .80-90% of our walks are "good".  So... .it is usually a "safe" place to talk.  At some point I did want to chat about daughter.  We normally talking parenting issues on walks.  it's not exclusive... .we talk about lots of things.

If you wanted to go for a walk for exercise, because you want to get healthy and lose weight, why involve your wife? If you are walking for yourself, just do it every morning for yourself! Involving your wife in that is a touch on the codependent / enmeshed side.

Part of the "that's simply not true" comment I made back to her... .was that I have gone for walks... .she didn't know about them.  They just weren't regular.  By that time... .if I remember right.  I was aware of being "probed"... and was trying to cut answers explanations short.

In that situation, I'd suggest saying something like "I'm going on a walk, would you like to join me?" or "I'm going for a walk this morning." Maybe you don't even need to say anything?

Or did you have another reason to want your wife on the walk with you?

The only "agenda" item was concern over daughter... .and a hope to "get together" on parenting so we can be on same page.

Very likely I made a bit of a "tactical" mistake that morning.  After the silence following the end of probing.  I probably should have validated... .and asked about her emotions.  

In other words... .tested the waters before bringing up daughter and pills.  

[vortex of confusion]

Yeah... I can see this... .but this gets into the parenting realm.  Parenting is about teaching kids a parents version of right and wrong.  They have a choice after they grow up to discard their parenting... .or to stick with what they have learned... .or to blend things.  I'm not going to budge on teaching my kids that "playing dr" after a doctor... .specialist even... .has given clear instructions.  Even gave her a paper to record when pills were taken each day... .and stressed the importance of it.  

Your daughter is closing in on 18. After she turns 18, you will not legally have much say in her health care choices. Not quite sure how to broach this. Yes, a doctor's instructions should be followed. The problem is that it doesn't sound like your daughter is getting much input into her health care. (Based on what you have said thus far.) I know your stance is that a doctor said it so it must be followed.

If you disagree with a doctor... .get a second opinion from another doctor... .and a third if needed.

Does your daughter have the ability to do this? Not really. Any ability to get other opinions from other doctors is stinted by the fact that everything has to go through you or your wife. It sounds like your daughter doesn't really have much choice. You have sided with the doctor and are not willing to budge (not saying that you should budge). It might be worthwhile to try to see how your daughter is feeling about her health and maybe even present the idea of finding another doctor if her current medication isn't working for her and the doctor is unwilling to consider another treatment option.

[formflier]

 

Unique thing for parenting in my family... .we have to realize that every decision is being watched by 6 other eyes.  Oldest is in college... .so... he is not looking backwards.

But... .if issues with him... .there are 7 eyes looking.

We are setting a precedent with the way we handle things. 

I will not set a precedent that "playing doctor" is ok.

Hmmm... .to me... .it seems the core thing is keeping the symptoms secret... .still not sure how to approach that.

I was asking how things were going... .but wasn't getting the information.

2nd and 3rd opinions.  We kinda did this. 

Daughter got sick... .went to GP in town.  strep throat addressed... .probably had a cold in there... .put some calls back  to GP about breathing and cough issues.  Really got no guidance other than "use the emergency inhaler"

Daughter was using it too much. 

So... we went to asthma specialist.

Who's advice she apparently ignored

[Grey Kitty]

  You are getting it. I gotta say that when you are worried (about health issues, for example), it is a lot harder to reach for the good tools instead of reacting.

I get your point here, but I've got a different conclusion on parenting here.

Give both your wife and D18 credit for caring about health issues and trying to make the best choices they can at the time, and doing things for their own reasons which seemed good at the time. Be interested in what they are thinking and why they are doing things... .NOT JUST TO PROVE THEM WRONG!

Yeah... I can see this... .but this gets into the parenting realm.  Parenting is about teaching kids a parents version of right and wrong.  They have a choice after they grow up to discard their parenting... .or to stick with what they have learned... .or to blend things.  I'm not going to budge on teaching my kids that "playing dr" after a doctor... .specialist even... .has given clear instructions.  Even gave her a paper to record when pills were taken each day... .and stressed the importance of it.  

If you disagree with a doctor... .get a second opinion from another doctor... .and a third if needed.

First--Yes, parenting is about teaching your kids your version of right and wrong.

Second--Teaching means using the best tools to get the message across, and being invalidating isn't doing that.

And lastly... .while I agree that you should listen to doctors, I also think you should listen to your body and think independently about medical issues. Doctors aren't infallible, and the medical system in the USA often prevents them from spending the time they need to really look at a patient, even though most of them want to. If you (or a family member as a medical advocate) don't actively manage the medical establishment, you will not get good healthcare outcomes for anything complicated or difficult.

I think your daughter was right to question her medication when she had a rash. Seeing a problem and asking if what you just started doing could be contributing to it is a great step. (And as a parent, I think that validating this part would be good)

The next step--deciding on her own without better info to stop it wasn't good judgement. It was time for more information and research.

That could be talking to you or mom, talking to a doctor, or a pharmacist, since they often know drug effects better than doc in many cases, or doing medical research online.

*IF* she asked mom, and got that advice, I'd say D18 did exactly the right thing. (And ARGH! about mom, but that isn't a parenting issue with D18!)

The ultimate results you found... .are what the research would have (and did) turn up. It was the right question. The lesson was when to ask the question and who to ask it of.

Responding to the rash with "The doc prescribed this drug, believe him and keep taking it." without further research doesn't sound right to me.

[vortex of confusion]

I will not set a precedent that "playing doctor" is ok.

I don't see the issue as "playing doctor". I see it more of an issue of helping your daughter to make good decisions about her health care. If a doctor gives you something and it isn't working, what should be done? Calling the doctor immediately is a good idea. I agree with what you are saying. I am trying to help you see that it isn't as simple as "don't play doctor".

Hmmm... .to me... .it seems the core thing is keeping the symptoms secret... .still not sure how to approach that.

I was asking how things were going... .but wasn't getting the information.

Why do most people keep things secret? It is usually out of fear. Is there a reason that your daughter might be afraid to talk to you about this issues?

Think about the question "How are things going?" That question is so broad and so non-descript. If you want to know about how the medicine is working or making her feel, then ask about the medicine directly. If you want to know how she feels about the doctor and his treatment protocol, ask her about it directly.

[Notwendy]

FF, in some ways you remind me of my H, and I probably remind you sometimes of your wife. I think the main difference is the definition of a PD- externalizing or dissociating from feelings- which blocks self awareness, awareness of others, and so the abilty to connect one's behavior to the effect on others. I always said the most disordered people are the ones who aren't aware. We are nons because we are asking for help, and aware of how our behavior affects others. However, sometimes I wonder if when my H is being super logical if I am the crazy one 

Much of what our spouses do is about how they were raised and their personalities, and they have normal behaviors. One way you remind me of my H is that you have a military background like my father in law and are factual and logical. When my H asks me for facts, I panic. This can trigger him. One reason I panic is that I am a spontaneous person who can adjust quickly- so if we go somewhere, and it is different- other people are there, the schedule changes, I go with the flow. H needs to know everything in advanced in detail: where, what time, who will be there, what will they do. Much of this, I don't even think about at that level. So he requires more than I know. Also, if I get a fact wrong, I am immediately corrected. Now, he can twist the facts to make a point, saying we talked for 3 hours when we talked for one. However, if I say we were out at 2:30 pm and it was 2:45, he will make a point of correcting for that 15 minutes even if that is not significant to our plans.

I can be logical and factual, as well as precise, when necessary, but in many areas of life, it is not important to be, and may be detrimental. It is a good thing for a mother to delay dinner a bit to comfort a crying child, to decide to go to the movies when it rains instead of the park. To be able to shrug it off if you make an error that isn't significant and to forgive these errors in your kids and others. However, having an H who thrives on accuracy can make me feel anxious.

I agree that some things like medication can be serious and must be accurate. However, correcting a spouse can feel very shaming no matter what it is for. Since I was raised in an FOO with toxic shaming ( my H was too) any correction from either of us triggers that. I am aware that when he corrects me, in his stern military way, it triggers a lot of shame for me. 

My H likes to have his own food in the fridge, that nobody messes with, so he knows it is there for him when he comes home from work. However, he tends to forget about it, and it can start growing things. Occasionally I toss it out, but I have made the mistake of tossing out something fresh that he wanted too. You can bet that I will be told about it when I do. Makes me afraid to touch it so I sometimes just leave it there until it is disgusting. If he did let some things go, I might not feel so anxious when he brings up something that requires accuracy. I also know that shame is my issue and have to work on that.

I'm glad that these insights are helpful. It would be impossible to be raised by a mother with BPD and not aquire some of her traits. Again, I hope the difference is insight, severity, and an ability to modulate the feelings... .or I will turn myself in!

[formflier]

 If you want to know about how the medicine is working or making her feel, then ask about the medicine directly. If you want to know how she feels about the doctor and his treatment protocol, ask her about it directly.

Yep... .I will do so in the future.  And will ignore pleas about why is Daddy (hubby) being such and ass... .why does he not trust us

We have found the reason... .  Consequences of her decisions affected her health... .the family's schedule... .and kept me and several other people awake last nigh because the coughing is getting worse.

It is getting worse because of her decisions... .possibly with my wifes involvement.

Yes... there is issue with my daughter here... .but I also don't want there to be any wishy washey space in the rest of my kids heads... .for the future... .that they know more about medicine than a doctor does... .or variations on that theme.

[formflier]

Responding to the rash with "The doc prescribed this drug, believe him and keep taking it." without further research doesn't sound right to me.

And not what I'm advocating.  Have rash... call dr.  Don't take it any further than that.  don't prejudge what doc will say...

This would be different... .if it was just one med.  But... .because of various sicknesses... and issues... .I think there were 4 different meds... maybe five... that were having interactions.

So... daughter assumed (she said this to doc)... .that since the prednisone was the last one she added... .that it was the issue.  Note... .this was the "common sense" that my wife was "backing her up on"... .and which I find dangerous

He gave her the scientific explanation of how it took antibiotics a while to build up in system... before rash started.  And gave her explanation of why she should have treated through it.  And actually did threat through it.  She finished the antibiotics and rash went away.  Coincidentally the same time she decided to quit taking prednisone.

Even if just one med... .she should have still called... .but having a reaction while taking multiple meds... .only a doc can sort through how those meds may react to each other... .

[Grey Kitty]

So... daughter assumed (she said this to doc)... .that since the prednisone was the last one she added... .that it was the issue.  Note... .this was the "common sense" that my wife was "backing her up on"... .and which I find dangerous

I'm suggesting you validate the good part and educate the bad part.

Sudden reaction -- ask self/others if latest drug could cause it -- GOOD; validate this!

Assume that this MUST be the solution, rather than investigating farther. Dangerous. There is a lesson there; Teaching moment.

I think that acknowledging the good motivation in her bad decision would help teach the lesson. And validation always improves any communications!

[formflier]

Much of what our spouses do is about how they were raised and their personalities, and they have normal behaviors. One way you remind me of my H is that you have a military background like my father in law and are factual and logical. When my H asks me for facts, I panic. This can trigger him.

I see that some in my wife.  And don't understand it.  I have never ... .NEVER... .criticized or thought of criticizing her for lack of knowlege... .ignorance is not a crime... .or a fault.  If you don't know... .you don't know.

So... I ask for fact... she says she doesn't know... .I move along.  It's that simple.

However... .in come's BPD traits... .or whatever.  She doesn't have fact... .I go somewhere else and get fact... .she wigs out.  Used to be worse... .now I have tools.

So... .I want fact... .she doesn't have it... .so I'm not allowed to have it.  That's what it appears to me to be.  Sigh... .

The other BPD trait issue is mind reading/projection... .she keeps saying I am so inflexibile... or that I think I am inflexible and won't change.  but the evidence screams to the contrary.  My thinking is contrary to that.

I'm an executive type... .in the military I commanded a couple shore installations and do similar work in civilian sector now... .I'm good at it.  One of my catchphrases... ."rules I live by"... .is that once you make a plan... .I guarantee you that is not what is going to happen.  The plan is what you use to measure how things are going... .are we early... are we late?  If someone ever tells me things are going according to plan... .I am instantly suspicious that something is wrong... .  seriously... that is how my brain works.  THINGS NEVER GO ACCORDING TO PLAN... . 

Yet... my wife will "accuse" me of "having to have" everything planned out... just so... .and if things don't go according to plan I "get mad"  (huh?)

To "prove" my point even more... .I was carrier aviator.  One of the things we joked about was that the carrier was never where they said they were going to be... .  Kinda a big deal... .because... .if you can't find the carrier to land... .you tend to get wet landing in the water... . 

You were flexible... .you figured it out... .

Maybe the best way to describe it... .is that "military types"... .or naval aviators... .figure out one or two things they can't be flexible on... .and others pick up on that... .and then they assume we are inflexible.

So... no flexibility on finding the carrier... .a big splash is not acceptable.  All the flexibility it takes to figure that out... .is ok.

Same thing with a time on target... .bombs need to hit... .when scheduled.  It's a big deal.  Most of the time we make that happen.  The shenanigans that are done to make that happen... .are shocking... .

Say... .anyone got a ladder to help me off my soapbox... .good grief... .

[formflier]

I think that acknowledging the good motivation in her bad decision would help teach the lesson. And validation always improves any communications!

Of course you are right... .

I'm still going to have the box of tissues... .at least in the room... . 

[eyvindr]

Notwendy --

Terrific, concise definition here:

FF, in some ways you remind me of my H, and I probably remind you sometimes of your wife. I think the main difference is the definition of a PD- externalizing or dissociating from feelings- which blocks self awareness, awareness of others, and so the abilty to connect one's behavior to the effect on others. I always said the most disordered people are the ones who aren't aware. We are nons because we are asking for help, and aware of how our behavior affects others... .

FF --

The other BPD trait issue is mind reading/projection... .she keeps saying I am so inflexibile... or that I think I am inflexible and won't change.  but the evidence screams to the contrary.  My thinking is contrary to that.

I'm an executive type... .in the military I commanded a couple shore installations and do similar work in civilian sector now... .I'm good at it.  One of my catchphrases... ."rules I live by"... .is that once you make a plan... .I guarantee you that is not what is going to happen.  The plan is what you use to measure how things are going... .are we early... are we late?  If someone ever tells me things are going according to plan... .I am instantly suspicious that something is wrong... .  seriously... that is how my brain works.  THINGS NEVER GO ACCORDING TO PLAN... . 

Yet... my wife will "accuse" me of "having to have" everything planned out... just so... .and if things don't go according to plan I "get mad"  (huh?)

I can relate. Good lord -- been there. Having a plan in place provides you with the flexibility to adapt to changes in circumstances, if and when they occur.

In other words, we try to frame our expectations in a way that builds in some flexibility. It contains, by design, an element of ambiguity. And what do we know about pwBPD? -- they often resort to B&W thinking. In other words, they not only struggle with ambiguity -- they don't even reject it -- there simply isn't any room for it at all in their thinking processes.

"You mean you're planning to have a plan that you might change without knowing if you need to and how you will change it?"

Ya know, if you tease it apart like that, it's easy to see where -- logically -- this can cause their operating system to crash. But, like -- that's life. It's messy, it's random, and isht happens. Hang in there.

[formflier]

I can relate. Good lord -- been there. Having a plan in place provides you with the flexibility to adapt to changes in circumstances, if and when they occur.

In other words, we try to frame our expectations in a way that builds in some flexibility.

Wow... .yes... .this is it. 

Now... .how do we program this into our pwBPD... .

[eyvindr]

Exactly the problem. What's needed is some neural reprogramming, because the OS they got appears to be missing the fault tolerance cluster.

Probably some day they will approve clinical testing of psychedelics for people suffering from these types of disorders.

For the time being, the best thing seems to be mindfulness meditation.

[Skip]

We're locking this as we are at the 6 page limit.

Good discussion! Loved this... .

One of my catchphrases... ."rules I live by"... .is that once you make a plan... .I guarantee you that is not what is going to happen.