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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: "I think you are lying and will check when I get home"... is what she said...  (Read 984 times)
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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2015, 08:11:19 PM »

ff -- I wonder it if would help to probe a little bit more with your daughter to determine why she stopped taking the prednisone.

Yep... she was warned of the side effects... the mental ones.  To be on lookout for them.  I was in dr office when that was explained.  Was one of the reasons I kept asking her how she was. 

Note:  I get b$tched at a lot for asking too many questions... .or too specific.  So... while I wanted to ask... .are you having any reaction to the meds?... .or really question her... .I tried to give her the opportunity to use my asking... .to bring up issues.  I won't make that mistake again... .and I won't listen to complaints about me asking to many detailed questions.

It's about their health... .if that hurts my wife's feelings... or makes her dysreg... .I'll hand her a box of tissues... .and move on...

though it was pretty hard to tell whether the asthma was as bad as she indicated it was. 

I've got a touch of asthma... .as does my wife.  Mine is easy to control.  allergy shots did wonders.

We deal with this with several of our kids... .so getting on same page with wife is big deal. 

Back to my daughter.  When things are normal... .she is easiest to manage.  You would never know she has asthma.  However... .shen she gets sick... .she is the hardest to manage... .by far.  The coughing and wheezing are scarey.  This is validating by her breathing tests... .close to red zone.  And after screwing up her meds... it was 8% lower. 

Granted... .dr said it was scarey... .but not to point of permanent damage.  He wanted to put it in context... .but he made point that managing it properly was the key to staying away from "real damage"... .and you have to follow dr orders and communicate with dr to "manage it properly"

Anyway, he was terrified of prednisone --

yep... .doctor went over her story a couple times today... .and was emphatic that what she experienced was not prednisone... .  He asked her several ways about symptoms... .and "anything else"... .

Or, maybe she shared those feelings with mom, and mom helped her come up with the rash story? I don't know -- maybe she really did think that she had a rash. Doctors don't know everything.

Yeah... .at some point I'm curious to establish the role my wife played in this.  If I can get clear agreement going forward... .that we discuss med changes with doctors... .then I am less concerned about the exact details of this escapade.

I guess I don't understand the doctors "don't know everything"... .but one thing is for sure... .pwBPD that haven't been to medical school... .know even less about managing meds.  So... .I'll stick with the docs.

I should probably also say... .this doctor is an "asthma doctor"... not a GP.  The only thing we go to this guy for is allergy shots and asthma management.  Kinda the same thing... .
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« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2015, 05:24:46 AM »

So... I'm still sorting this out in my head... .so I'll just tell the story in my rambling style... and hope for some direction from you guys.

I've been sick for a few days... .woke up feeling great.  Asked wife if she wanted to go for a walk with me.  She drug her feet getting ready... but we went.  I told her I felt good and wanted to go for a walk.

Anyway... .a minute out the door... .the questions started about why go for a walk.  She seemed calm... but the questions seemed "probing" to me.  I told her I had already answered that question... .but would be happy to answer again.  That I felt good and wanted to walk and "loosen up" in the morning. 

W:"Why didn't you walk earlier... ?"

FF:"I didn't feel like it... was sick... "

W:  "So why now... ?"

FF:  "I don't know if I have any more to add to what I've already said... "

some quiet time walking... couple minutes

FF:  "I hope to get a good walking habit going again.  My weight is down after sickness... and at my last physical my weight was my biggest issue the dr brought up... ."

W:  "but that appointment was months ago... .why now... "

FF:  "That appointment was less than two weeks ago... .I've been sick a bunch since then... "

W:  "Well at your last dr appointment your weight was an issue and you haven't walked much since then... "

FF:  "That's simply not true... ."

W:  "Your last appointment was months ago and weight was issue then... ."

FF:  "My last appointment... .before the one a couple weeks ago... .was over a year ago... .I'm confused... .what appointments are you talking about... "

silence and walking

This sounds like a minor communication issue more than anything, imo.  Not really anything BPD about it.  Maybe even man/woman dynamics.

I'm wondering if as much as we're interested in understanding our partner's thought processes, the same doesn't go for them?

So why start walking now?

Was your weight an issue over a year ago or have you put on a little weight in the past year?

From what you've described, it sounds to me (or looks on the screen), that after being sick and taking a few pounds off the hard way, it prompted you to take what Dr said to heart; your weight was the biggest concern and now that you're feeling good, you're ready to take it seriously and do something about it.

Your wife "probed" and got that much out of you, when all you gave her with your first explanation was that "you felt good and wanted to go for a walk".  Then you seemed to get a little annoyed upon further questioning.  Every time she "probed", she was able to get a little more information out of you.

Do we not do that to our partners, also?  Why is it okay for us, but not for them?



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« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2015, 06:03:51 AM »

Sounds like the basic issue is that your wife is afraid of being questioned/criticised by you, and so automatically covers up her involvement in the decision.

Then uses projection to accuse you of covering up.

This is then followed with avoidance of discussing it to further avoid any responsibility, as she knows you won't let it slide.

The issue itself is not significant in itself to her, it is simply avoidance of ownership.

Prednisone was another of those meds my partner abused and suffered severe side effects, I had forgotten about that one. I think it was swelling and heart rate. Think there was an ER OD admission on it once as well.
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« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2015, 06:42:52 AM »

It's interesting. My H has used the term "probing" when I ask him questions. I also think it may be a man/woman thing. To me, the questioning is a form of reality checking. I don't have the capacity to read minds- I think it isn't a good thing to assume what someone is thinking, yet I think we do it a lot with each other.

When people say what they mean, and mean what they say, we don't have to do this, but with a spouse with a PD, sometimes we don't know what they mean. They also project- if they do something, they assume we are doing it too.

I prefer to be direct with people, but with my H, this can provoke rages, so I tend to keep things to myself. Since he has used the silent treatment, when I am not talking, he takes this to be me doing it- withdrawing, or rejecting me and he then does it back to me. He raged at me a few weeks ago, and since then, I have been very quiet- it takes me some time to recover from these incidents as they are very draining emotionally. My H has interpereted that as me not being interested in him physically and was sort of ignoring me the past few weeks, while I thought he was being punitive. So you can see how we get into those crazy loops of "mind reading" and reacting.

The reason that my questioning him "probing" is so triggering is that it comes from a place of fear in me. I learned in 12 step groups that any time we act out of fear, we are basically being selfish, protecting ourselves. Our partners can pick up on that, and we can too. Asking my H a question is like asking him "what is going on?" so I can be somewhat oriented to his emotions so that I don't set him off. In a similar way, your wife noticed a change in you, and it possibly triggered some fears in her. She needed to know more about why you chose to do something different as that was a form of reality checking for her, if her fears were talking to her. When my H is triggered by my questions, he resists them, which is frustrating for me as I don't mean them as being more than that. He hates "being probed" as he calls it.

My mother does a more extreme form of this. It feels as if she is constantly "probing" for something, information, or pushing emotional buttons. It takes a lot of energy to stay calm in her presence. I sometimes think that if her sense of  self is so unstable that she needs continuous feedback of what is going on. I think that people with a stronger sense of self still need this sometimes, but far less. Lastly, what triggers my H to be angry at me is when I act like a part of himself that he personally rejects. His role model was a tough military guy for whom being emotional or fearful was not acceptable. That makes sense in the military as it could be life threatening, but a relationship requires a full range of emotions- and a place where it is OK to be sad or scared.

One idea is that when your wife is "probing" is that she is feeling fearful and insecure, and needs a reality check that you do love her and are not getting in shape for someone else. I think this can also help someone for whom a feeling might seem like reality- and letting them know it is not.

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« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2015, 07:15:31 AM »

Notwendy,

Those are some great insights -- your descriptions ring true to my experiences with my ex many times when what I thought were simple conversations suddenly got weird. Rings true to me.

Ev.
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« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2015, 07:33:49 AM »

Sounds like the basic issue is that your wife is afraid of being questioned/criticised by you, and so automatically covers up her involvement in the decision.

She has said this before in counseling... .not maybe the covering up part... .but she does not "like" me going after facts... ."problem solving".  In counseling we've talking some about me trying to be nicer... .but I'm more holding to this is just part of life... .you have to assemble facts to solve a problem... .you have to ask questions to get facts... .

She is also big on "asking a question means xyz... ."... .I hate that... .abhor it.  If I ask a question... it means I would like to know the answer.  I won't prejudge the answer until I get it.

More later... gotta run

Then uses projection to accuse you of covering up.

This is then followed with avoidance of discussing it to further avoid any responsibility, as she knows you won't let it slide.

The issue itself is not significant in itself to her, it is simply avoidance of ownership.

Prednisone was another of those meds my partner abused and suffered severe side effects, I had forgotten about that one. I think it was swelling and heart rate. Think there was an ER OD admission on it once as well.

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« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2015, 07:45:56 AM »

It's interesting. My H has used the term "probing" when I ask him questions. ... .I don't have the capacity to read minds- I think it isn't a good thing to assume what someone is thinking, yet I think we do it a lot with each other.

I've stumbled into the 'probing' question issue. I've also been accused of leading questions.

One thing to avoid at all costs is the sort of questions a lawyer asks of a witness.

Where the lawyer knows what corner he's trying to paint the witness into, and starts asking questions which are clearly directed in that direction, leading up to forcing the witness to admit that they were doing something wrong, being deceptive, contradicting themself, etc.

Even if I'm not really TRYING to do that to my wife, if it feels that way for her, things won't go well!
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« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2015, 07:49:12 AM »

And back to the beginning (I'm showing up 4 pages in!) and FF's issues... .starting with a big picture comment:

You only have control over yourself, FF. Your only tool to change the mood in your household is to change YOUR behavior. You sound very frustrated over what your wife (and D18 also) are doing. That is understandable--it does sound difficult and frustrating. Please continue to share your feelings about it here!

But put yourself back on track--if you want to change those interactions, you can tell them that they need to do something different... .Do I even need to ask how that's been working for you so far? Or you can change your own behavior.

It's about their health... .if that hurts my wife's feelings... or makes her dysreg... .I'll hand her a box of tissues... .and move on...

Agreed--you don't mess around with health issues.

"I'll hand her a box of tissues" is NOT your best tool for dealing with your wife! Using the style of a military harda$$ officer doesn't work well with her!

Health issues are important enough for YOU to reach into your toolbox, and make sure you use the best tools you have to get the best possible outcomes, even if it is difficult for YOU or takes a few minutes longer. Reach for validation, instead of handing her the box of tissues.

Give both your wife and D18 credit for caring about health issues and trying to make the best choices they can at the time, and doing things for their own reasons which seemed good at the time. Be interested in what they are thinking and why they are doing things... .NOT JUST TO PROVE THEM WRONG!

I've been sick for a few days... .woke up feeling great.  Asked wife if she wanted to go for a walk with me.  She drug her feet getting ready... but we went.  I told her I felt good and wanted to go for a walk.

VOC & others did a great job of looking at the morning walk conversation. I've not got much to add, there, but back up before you went on the walk.

What was your real reason/motivation?

If you wanted to go for a walk for exercise, because you want to get healthy and lose weight, why involve your wife? If you are walking for yourself, just do it every morning for yourself! Involving your wife in that is a touch on the codependent / enmeshed side.

In that situation, I'd suggest saying something like "I'm going on a walk, would you like to join me?" or "I'm going for a walk this morning." Maybe you don't even need to say anything?

Or did you have another reason to want your wife on the walk with you?
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« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2015, 07:54:59 AM »

Then uses projection to accuse you of covering up.

I suspect so... .because I think I'm more of a let's get the problem out there... so we can solve it... kinda guy.  Rather than cover up.


This is then followed with avoidance of discussing it to further avoid any responsibility, as she knows you won't let it slide.

Yeah... .I've tried to let more things slide... .so that the things that really matter... .such as this issue... .can get the attention they deserve. 

The temperature sure has come down in our r/s... .but I'm not sure we are more effective at "solving problems"... .or "communicating" about important issues like meds.

The issue itself is not significant in itself to her, it is simply avoidance of ownership.

Yep... .one of the frustrating things about pwBPD... .is that they seem to claim that others "made" them do things.  This seems to be along the same line of avoiding ownership

Prednisone was another of those meds my partner abused and suffered severe side effects, I had forgotten about that one. I think it was swelling and heart rate. Think there was an ER OD admission on it once as well.

Lovely... .this is our first experience with it... .asthma guy swears by it.  This morning my daughters cough seems worse. 

Because of the shenanigans with going on and off the drug... .I don't see many choices but to hang in there with this course of medicine for a few more days before calling dr back.  He warned it would take a few days.

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« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2015, 08:13:52 AM »

Health issues are important enough for YOU to reach into your toolbox, and make sure you use the best tools you have to get the best possible outcomes, even if it is difficult for YOU or takes a few minutes longer. Reach for validation, instead of handing her the box of tissues.

Very good point... . maybe a SE SE SET... with the T being about following dr advice.


Give both your wife and D18 credit for caring about health issues and trying to make the best choices they can at the time, and doing things for their own reasons which seemed good at the time. Be interested in what they are thinking and why they are doing things... .NOT JUST TO PROVE THEM WRONG!

Yeah... I can see this... .but this gets into the parenting realm.  Parenting is about teaching kids a parents version of right and wrong.  They have a choice after they grow up to discard their parenting... .or to stick with what they have learned... .or to blend things.  I'm not going to budge on teaching my kids that "playing dr" after a doctor... .specialist even... .has given clear instructions.  Even gave her a paper to record when pills were taken each day... .and stressed the importance of it.  

If you disagree with a doctor... .get a second opinion from another doctor... .and a third if needed.

I have no idea if my wife was involved... .or just "backing up" the daughter.  There is a lesson here for daughter... .and for the rest of the family.


What was your real reason/motivation?

Walks "usually" go good... are a positive thing.  Sure... they have gone bad before... .but I'd say... .80-90% of our walks are "good".  So... .it is usually a "safe" place to talk.  At some point I did want to chat about daughter.  We normally talking parenting issues on walks.  it's not exclusive... .we talk about lots of things.

If you wanted to go for a walk for exercise, because you want to get healthy and lose weight, why involve your wife? If you are walking for yourself, just do it every morning for yourself! Involving your wife in that is a touch on the codependent / enmeshed side.

Part of the "that's simply not true" comment I made back to her... .was that I have gone for walks... .she didn't know about them.  They just weren't regular.  By that time... .if I remember right.  I was aware of being "probed"... and was trying to cut answers explanations short.

In that situation, I'd suggest saying something like "I'm going on a walk, would you like to join me?" or "I'm going for a walk this morning." Maybe you don't even need to say anything?

Or did you have another reason to want your wife on the walk with you?

The only "agenda" item was concern over daughter... .and a hope to "get together" on parenting so we can be on same page.

Very likely I made a bit of a "tactical" mistake that morning.  After the silence following the end of probing.  I probably should have validated... .and asked about her emotions.  

In other words... .tested the waters before bringing up daughter and pills.  



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« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2015, 08:28:23 AM »

Yeah... I can see this... .but this gets into the parenting realm.  Parenting is about teaching kids a parents version of right and wrong.  They have a choice after they grow up to discard their parenting... .or to stick with what they have learned... .or to blend things.  I'm not going to budge on teaching my kids that "playing dr" after a doctor... .specialist even... .has given clear instructions.  Even gave her a paper to record when pills were taken each day... .and stressed the importance of it.  

Your daughter is closing in on 18. After she turns 18, you will not legally have much say in her health care choices. Not quite sure how to broach this. Yes, a doctor's instructions should be followed. The problem is that it doesn't sound like your daughter is getting much input into her health care. (Based on what you have said thus far.) I know your stance is that a doctor said it so it must be followed.

Excerpt
If you disagree with a doctor... .get a second opinion from another doctor... .and a third if needed.

Does your daughter have the ability to do this? Not really. Any ability to get other opinions from other doctors is stinted by the fact that everything has to go through you or your wife. It sounds like your daughter doesn't really have much choice. You have sided with the doctor and are not willing to budge (not saying that you should budge). It might be worthwhile to try to see how your daughter is feeling about her health and maybe even present the idea of finding another doctor if her current medication isn't working for her and the doctor is unwilling to consider another treatment option.
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« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2015, 08:47:59 AM »

 

Unique thing for parenting in my family... .we have to realize that every decision is being watched by 6 other eyes.  Oldest is in college... .so... he is not looking backwards.

But... .if issues with him... .there are 7 eyes looking.

We are setting a precedent with the way we handle things. 

I will not set a precedent that "playing doctor" is ok.

Hmmm... .to me... .it seems the core thing is keeping the symptoms secret... .still not sure how to approach that.

I was asking how things were going... .but wasn't getting the information.

2nd and 3rd opinions.  We kinda did this. 

Daughter got sick... .went to GP in town.  strep throat addressed... .probably had a cold in there... .put some calls back  to GP about breathing and cough issues.  Really got no guidance other than "use the emergency inhaler"

Daughter was using it too much. 

So... we went to asthma specialist.

Who's advice she apparently ignored
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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2015, 08:49:17 AM »

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) You are getting it. I gotta say that when you are worried (about health issues, for example), it is a lot harder to reach for the good tools instead of reacting.

I get your point here, but I've got a different conclusion on parenting here.

Give both your wife and D18 credit for caring about health issues and trying to make the best choices they can at the time, and doing things for their own reasons which seemed good at the time. Be interested in what they are thinking and why they are doing things... .NOT JUST TO PROVE THEM WRONG!

Yeah... I can see this... .but this gets into the parenting realm.  Parenting is about teaching kids a parents version of right and wrong.  They have a choice after they grow up to discard their parenting... .or to stick with what they have learned... .or to blend things.  I'm not going to budge on teaching my kids that "playing dr" after a doctor... .specialist even... .has given clear instructions.  Even gave her a paper to record when pills were taken each day... .and stressed the importance of it.  

If you disagree with a doctor... .get a second opinion from another doctor... .and a third if needed.

First--Yes, parenting is about teaching your kids your version of right and wrong.

Second--Teaching means using the best tools to get the message across, and being invalidating isn't doing that.

And lastly... .while I agree that you should listen to doctors, I also think you should listen to your body and think independently about medical issues. Doctors aren't infallible, and the medical system in the USA often prevents them from spending the time they need to really look at a patient, even though most of them want to. If you (or a family member as a medical advocate) don't actively manage the medical establishment, you will not get good healthcare outcomes for anything complicated or difficult.

I think your daughter was right to question her medication when she had a rash. Seeing a problem and asking if what you just started doing could be contributing to it is a great step. (And as a parent, I think that validating this part would be good)

The next step--deciding on her own without better info to stop it wasn't good judgement. It was time for more information and research.

That could be talking to you or mom, talking to a doctor, or a pharmacist, since they often know drug effects better than doc in many cases, or doing medical research online.

*IF* she asked mom, and got that advice, I'd say D18 did exactly the right thing. (And ARGH! about mom, but that isn't a parenting issue with D18!)

The ultimate results you found... .are what the research would have (and did) turn up. It was the right question. The lesson was when to ask the question and who to ask it of.

Responding to the rash with "The doc prescribed this drug, believe him and keep taking it." without further research doesn't sound right to me.
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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2015, 09:04:40 AM »



I will not set a precedent that "playing doctor" is ok.

I don't see the issue as "playing doctor". I see it more of an issue of helping your daughter to make good decisions about her health care. If a doctor gives you something and it isn't working, what should be done? Calling the doctor immediately is a good idea. I agree with what you are saying. I am trying to help you see that it isn't as simple as "don't play doctor".

Excerpt
Hmmm... .to me... .it seems the core thing is keeping the symptoms secret... .still not sure how to approach that.

I was asking how things were going... .but wasn't getting the information.

Why do most people keep things secret? It is usually out of fear. Is there a reason that your daughter might be afraid to talk to you about this issues?

Think about the question "How are things going?" That question is so broad and so non-descript. If you want to know about how the medicine is working or making her feel, then ask about the medicine directly. If you want to know how she feels about the doctor and his treatment protocol, ask her about it directly.

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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2015, 09:17:37 AM »

FF, in some ways you remind me of my H, and I probably remind you sometimes of your wife. I think the main difference is the definition of a PD- externalizing or dissociating from feelings- which blocks self awareness, awareness of others, and so the abilty to connect one's behavior to the effect on others. I always said the most disordered people are the ones who aren't aware. We are nons because we are asking for help, and aware of how our behavior affects others. However, sometimes I wonder if when my H is being super logical if I am the crazy one 

Much of what our spouses do is about how they were raised and their personalities, and they have normal behaviors. One way you remind me of my H is that you have a military background like my father in law and are factual and logical. When my H asks me for facts, I panic. This can trigger him. One reason I panic is that I am a spontaneous person who can adjust quickly- so if we go somewhere, and it is different- other people are there, the schedule changes, I go with the flow. H needs to know everything in advanced in detail: where, what time, who will be there, what will they do. Much of this, I don't even think about at that level. So he requires more than I know. Also, if I get a fact wrong, I am immediately corrected. Now, he can twist the facts to make a point, saying we talked for 3 hours when we talked for one. However, if I say we were out at 2:30 pm and it was 2:45, he will make a point of correcting for that 15 minutes even if that is not significant to our plans.

I can be logical and factual, as well as precise, when necessary, but in many areas of life, it is not important to be, and may be detrimental. It is a good thing for a mother to delay dinner a bit to comfort a crying child, to decide to go to the movies when it rains instead of the park. To be able to shrug it off if you make an error that isn't significant and to forgive these errors in your kids and others. However, having an H who thrives on accuracy can make me feel anxious.

I agree that some things like medication can be serious and must be accurate. However, correcting a spouse can feel very shaming no matter what it is for. Since I was raised in an FOO with toxic shaming ( my H was too) any correction from either of us triggers that. I am aware that when he corrects me, in his stern military way, it triggers a lot of shame for me. 

My H likes to have his own food in the fridge, that nobody messes with, so he knows it is there for him when he comes home from work. However, he tends to forget about it, and it can start growing things. Occasionally I toss it out, but I have made the mistake of tossing out something fresh that he wanted too. You can bet that I will be told about it when I do. Makes me afraid to touch it so I sometimes just leave it there until it is disgusting. If he did let some things go, I might not feel so anxious when he brings up something that requires accuracy. I also know that shame is my issue and have to work on that.

I'm glad that these insights are helpful. It would be impossible to be raised by a mother with BPD and not aquire some of her traits. Again, I hope the difference is insight, severity, and an ability to modulate the feelings... .or I will turn myself in!
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« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2015, 09:20:02 AM »

 If you want to know about how the medicine is working or making her feel, then ask about the medicine directly. If you want to know how she feels about the doctor and his treatment protocol, ask her about it directly.

Yep... .I will do so in the future.  And will ignore pleas about why is Daddy (hubby) being such and ass... .why does he not trust us

We have found the reason... .  Consequences of her decisions affected her health... .the family's schedule... .and kept me and several other people awake last nigh because the coughing is getting worse.

It is getting worse because of her decisions... .possibly with my wifes involvement.

Yes... there is issue with my daughter here... .but I also don't want there to be any wishy washey space in the rest of my kids heads... .for the future... .that they know more about medicine than a doctor does... .or variations on that theme.

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« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2015, 09:36:17 AM »

Responding to the rash with "The doc prescribed this drug, believe him and keep taking it." without further research doesn't sound right to me.

And not what I'm advocating.  Have rash... call dr.  Don't take it any further than that.  don't prejudge what doc will say...

This would be different... .if it was just one med.  But... .because of various sicknesses... and issues... .I think there were 4 different meds... maybe five... that were having interactions.

So... daughter assumed (she said this to doc)... .that since the prednisone was the last one she added... .that it was the issue.  Note... .this was the "common sense" that my wife was "backing her up on"... .and which I find dangerous

He gave her the scientific explanation of how it took antibiotics a while to build up in system... before rash started.  And gave her explanation of why she should have treated through it.  And actually did threat through it.  She finished the antibiotics and rash went away.  Coincidentally the same time she decided to quit taking prednisone.

Even if just one med... .she should have still called... .but having a reaction while taking multiple meds... .only a doc can sort through how those meds may react to each other... .



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« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2015, 10:09:30 AM »

So... daughter assumed (she said this to doc)... .that since the prednisone was the last one she added... .that it was the issue.  Note... .this was the "common sense" that my wife was "backing her up on"... .and which I find dangerous

I'm suggesting you validate the good part and educate the bad part.

Sudden reaction -- ask self/others if latest drug could cause it -- GOOD; validate this!

Assume that this MUST be the solution, rather than investigating farther. Dangerous. There is a lesson there; Teaching moment.

I think that acknowledging the good motivation in her bad decision would help teach the lesson. And validation always improves any communications!
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« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2015, 10:11:02 AM »

Much of what our spouses do is about how they were raised and their personalities, and they have normal behaviors. One way you remind me of my H is that you have a military background like my father in law and are factual and logical. When my H asks me for facts, I panic. This can trigger him.

I see that some in my wife.  And don't understand it.  I have never ... .NEVER... .criticized or thought of criticizing her for lack of knowlege... .ignorance is not a crime... .or a fault.  If you don't know... .you don't know.

So... I ask for fact... she says she doesn't know... .I move along.  It's that simple.

However... .in come's BPD traits... .or whatever.  She doesn't have fact... .I go somewhere else and get fact... .she wigs out.  Used to be worse... .now I have tools.

So... .I want fact... .she doesn't have it... .so I'm not allowed to have it.  That's what it appears to me to be.  Sigh... .

The other BPD trait issue is mind reading/projection... .she keeps saying I am so inflexibile... or that I think I am inflexible and won't change.  but the evidence screams to the contrary.  My thinking is contrary to that.

I'm an executive type... .in the military I commanded a couple shore installations and do similar work in civilian sector now... .I'm good at it.  One of my catchphrases... ."rules I live by"... .is that once you make a plan... .I guarantee you that is not what is going to happen.  The plan is what you use to measure how things are going... .are we early... are we late?  If someone ever tells me things are going according to plan... .I am instantly suspicious that something is wrong... .  seriously... that is how my brain works.  THINGS NEVER GO ACCORDING TO PLAN... . 

Yet... my wife will "accuse" me of "having to have" everything planned out... just so... .and if things don't go according to plan I "get mad"  (huh?)

To "prove" my point even more... .I was carrier aviator.  One of the things we joked about was that the carrier was never where they said they were going to be... .  Kinda a big deal... .because... .if you can't find the carrier to land... .you tend to get wet landing in the water... . 

You were flexible... .you figured it out... .

Maybe the best way to describe it... .is that "military types"... .or naval aviators... .figure out one or two things they can't be flexible on... .and others pick up on that... .and then they assume we are inflexible.

So... no flexibility on finding the carrier... .a big splash is not acceptable.  All the flexibility it takes to figure that out... .is ok.

Same thing with a time on target... .bombs need to hit... .when scheduled.  It's a big deal.  Most of the time we make that happen.  The shenanigans that are done to make that happen... .are shocking... .

Say... .anyone got a ladder to help me off my soapbox... .good grief... .

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« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2015, 10:12:19 AM »

I think that acknowledging the good motivation in her bad decision would help teach the lesson. And validation always improves any communications!

Of course you are right... .

I'm still going to have the box of tissues... .at least in the room... . 

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« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2015, 02:18:41 PM »

Notwendy --

Terrific, concise definition here:

FF, in some ways you remind me of my H, and I probably remind you sometimes of your wife. I think the main difference is the definition of a PD- externalizing or dissociating from feelings- which blocks self awareness, awareness of others, and so the abilty to connect one's behavior to the effect on others. I always said the most disordered people are the ones who aren't aware. We are nons because we are asking for help, and aware of how our behavior affects others... .

FF --

The other BPD trait issue is mind reading/projection... .she keeps saying I am so inflexibile... or that I think I am inflexible and won't change.  but the evidence screams to the contrary.  My thinking is contrary to that.

I'm an executive type... .in the military I commanded a couple shore installations and do similar work in civilian sector now... .I'm good at it.  One of my catchphrases... ."rules I live by"... .is that once you make a plan... .I guarantee you that is not what is going to happen.  The plan is what you use to measure how things are going... .are we early... are we late?  If someone ever tells me things are going according to plan... .I am instantly suspicious that something is wrong... .  seriously... that is how my brain works.  THINGS NEVER GO ACCORDING TO PLAN... . 

Yet... my wife will "accuse" me of "having to have" everything planned out... just so... .and if things don't go according to plan I "get mad"  (huh?)

I can relate. Good lord -- been there. Having a plan in place provides you with the flexibility to adapt to changes in circumstances, if and when they occur.

In other words, we try to frame our expectations in a way that builds in some flexibility. It contains, by design, an element of ambiguity. And what do we know about pwBPD? -- they often resort to B&W thinking. In other words, they not only struggle with ambiguity -- they don't even reject it -- there simply isn't any room for it at all in their thinking processes.

"You mean you're planning to have a plan that you might change without knowing if you need to and how you will change it?"

Ya know, if you tease it apart like that, it's easy to see where -- logically -- this can cause their operating system to crash. But, like -- that's life. It's messy, it's random, and isht happens. Hang in there.
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« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2015, 03:15:10 PM »

I can relate. Good lord -- been there. Having a plan in place provides you with the flexibility to adapt to changes in circumstances, if and when they occur.

In other words, we try to frame our expectations in a way that builds in some flexibility.

Wow... .yes... .this is it. 

Now... .how do we program this into our pwBPD... .Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2015, 03:18:32 PM »

Exactly the problem. What's needed is some neural reprogramming, because the OS they got appears to be missing the fault tolerance cluster.

Probably some day they will approve clinical testing of psychedelics for people suffering from these types of disorders.

For the time being, the best thing seems to be mindfulness meditation.
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« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2015, 04:17:01 PM »

Staff only

We're locking this as we are at the 6 page limit.

Good discussion! Loved this... .

One of my catchphrases... ."rules I live by"... .is that once you make a plan... .I guarantee you that is not what is going to happen.
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