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Author Topic: Ex will not agree to new therapist  (Read 683 times)
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« on: December 09, 2014, 09:26:52 AM »

My D11 has been in T since about a year after my divorce. The reason my ex and I got her into T was she was pulling out her eyelashes when she was sad/stressed. Her first T moved out of state with no notice so we were left to find a new one. She has been seeing the new T since about 2012. I started taking my S7 last year. In both cases of finding the T, my ex insisted they be psychologists/psychiatrists with a Masters degree. During a conversation recently with my ex we both agreed that we don’t think the lady they currently see (she is a psychologist with a Masters) is doing much. The kids seem to be stuck on the issues they have and never really progress or get relief (this is my point of view, he just doesn’t think they should really be going but would never say that to me). My ex agreed that we should find someone new but now he is insisting that we find someone with a PhD in psychiatry…WTH, really?

During the conversation with him I mentioned that I would like the kids to see the lady that I see. She also sees, my Dh and my step-kids. She sees us all and has helped with the blending of our families and the normal stuff that can arise from that. We work on relationships and the dynamics of our family. She also helps my step-kids work through the issues they have with their uBPD mom. My ex was totally against this, again insisting that we find someone with a PhD, that he is not comfortable with our kids seeing the lady who knows the entire situation.

My ex never takes my kids to their T, 95% of the time I make and take them to appointments. He has only ever been involved if/when (a few times) their lady has said dad needs to bring them since there is something one of them needs to talk about with him. He doesn’t ever talk about their T with them, asking what they are doing, what he could help with or how he can support it. He has actually told my D that he thinks it is sad that she has to talk to a T about her issues and has told her she is crazy for feeling sad/depressed or down about whatever is bothering her. All the things that she talks about in T are her dad and the issues she has with him and his behavior and how he makes her feel like he doesn’t love her. So I don’t feel like I should have to do what he says in regards to a new T. Our agreement does not specify anything about type of Ts we have to use.

I explained all of this to my attorney and asked if I could get into any trouble if I just pick a T and take them even if my ex doesn’t agree. His response was “You have a right to take the child for medical care.  Your obligation is merely to inform father of the scheduled appointments, as he has a right to know what is going on.  He can choose to be involved or obtain a second opinion”

Either way I’ve decided that after the holidays that I am making an appointment for them with either my T or  her business partner and send an email to my ex with the info. Do you think it is damaging to the kids to see my lady or do you think it would be beneficial?


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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2014, 11:21:28 AM »

I tried to do it perfectly the first (and only) time trying joint counseling.  I thought being female and having a degree would make a difference for my ex.  It didn't.  Ex refused, even said she'd sue.   But she said she'd attend to "help" ForeverDad in counseling.  Good thing the director said No to that.  But after 3 sessions all that got done was FOO questions about my history and absolutely no suggestions about how to deal with my increasingly high conflict spouse.  Looking back, I can't believe I went 3 times with no suggestions whatsoever.  So I agree, a degree does not mean a person is the most helpful.

Excerpt
Either way I’ve decided that after the holidays that I am making an appointment for them with either my T or  her business partner and send an email to my ex with the info. Do you think it is damaging to the kids to see my lady or do you think it would be beneficial?

If you hadn't already written this, I would have responded:  It might be good to have a fallback strategy in case your T doing the counseling doesn't work out.  In itself, seeing your T is not a clear issue, I guess it depends whether your child would feel uncomfortable (and not open up) if seeing the same person you do.  Ask your T if he/she would recommend an associate or another T that your T has confidence is excellent as well as perceptive and helpful?  Sometimes changing therapists happens, just make sure it's done in a way that is harder to misconstrue, twist or distort.

Easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2014, 11:29:23 AM »

Thanks Foreverdad! I agree and lately I've been doing a lot more things that are asking for forgiveness vs. permission.

Because our agreement doesn't state specifically what kind of T we have to use, I don't think he will really do anything. He will get pissed, send a few aggressive emails and when he realizes I'm not changing my mind... .I think he will just let it go. There are only a few things he could do... .

1. get his attorney involved to say it isn't allowed. because the agreement doesn't say anything he would have to file something in court. I don't think he would do this, it would take effort on his part

2. he could take them to, in his mind, a more skilled T. But again that means effort and coordination on his part, he doesn't take them now so why would he start for this.

3. threaten me with some sort of action or try to turn the kids against the T I pick. but at least for my D, she picks up on dad's manipulation sometimes.


I think he won't do much then down the road when the kids are stronger and aren't putting up with his BS he will blame it on me that I had my T brainwash them or something 

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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2014, 03:01:02 PM »

Do you have it in writing that he agrees the current T is not really working? If not, is it something he would put in an email?

I agree that it's better to ask forgiveness than permission and would do the same thing in your shoes. But there are ways to go about it so that you score so high on being reasonable he will look like he's stonewalling or obstructing what is best for your D. Any of these, documented, would probably go over well in the (unlikely) event your ex wants to take you to court over it. And even if he does, he's going to look like a big jerk dad. Most pwBPD aren't great at offering solutions, which is where you come in  Smiling (click to insert in post)

1. Ask him to find 3 counselors with Phds by date/day and you will pick which one.

2. Find 3 counselors with Phds and let him pick the one he wants.

3. Find a counselor with a Phd and ask if he/she recommends that your D see the same psychologist who is treating the rest of your family, then convey that to your ex. I doubt that would be hard to find... .

4. Tell him to find a Phd counselor for her. If he has not done so by day/date, let him know you will do the search. Then take D to your counselor.

or

5. Just write a note describing the history of D's counseling, what your ex wanted, how you agreed, how you both agreed it wasn't working, how he wants someone with a Phd, how concerned you are for D, how ex does not seem to take D very often, how your current T has helped the rest of your family, and you encourage your ex to meet with the counselor.

If he makes a fuss, chalk it up to cage rattling. Chances are he won't do much, and an L might even talk him out of doing anything about it because he has no reasonable solution.

One thing I've seen Matt recommend a lot here is to ask your D's guidance counselor at school to recommend someone, and use that as a buffer.

As an aside about the Phd thing, some people think social workers are better at dealing with families because that's the focus of their training -- family systems, or at least systems. Whereas clinical psychologists tend to focus on the individual, and are much better trained to deal with mental health.

I've found that the best counselor is quite simply someone who is good. Doesn't matter whether they are MA or Phd. Preferably they have trained somewhere that teaches ethics as part of the degree so that they don't cross boundaries they shouldn't.

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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2014, 04:09:24 PM »

It doesn't sound as if you/your ex are clear on qualifications.

A clinical psychologist can have a PhD.  He/she cannot prescribe medication.

A psychiatrist is a medical doctor/MD.  He/she can prescribe medication.

And then there are various Master's degree level therapists/counselors -- LCSW, etc.

What is your ex's point about the qualifications, exactly?  Does he think the children need meds? 
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« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2014, 08:13:25 AM »

L&L - I like the options you mentioned. I've also talked to the kid's current T about having them work with our family T on things that involve our family dynamic. She was completely fine with this and mentioned it wasn't a bad thing. I never mentioned any of that to dad because at the time she was only brought into one or two sessions with my SD to work on some relationship things that were happening between them. I do have in writing that he agrees the current T isn't really working and I think I like number 5.  

Gagrl - I am clear that a chiatrist can prescribed and a chologist cannot. Ex is not BPD he is NP and so because someone carries PhD he considers them to be the best of the best, I think this comes from his grandiose thinking. It also causes more issues with finding someone because they, at least in our area, are harder to find. Plus It is more of a control thing than thinking they are really "better" at what they do. He does not think the kids need meds because in a round about way he has hinted that he thinks they don't need therapy and that it is more damaging to have T.

I spoke to my D last night and informed of the situation with the T and needing to find someone new. She was ok with it but also mentioned not wanting to have to start over and explain everything about her dad's inappropriate behavior and how he makes her feel. The T I/family sees has a business partner who she said is excellent with kids so I may book with her so at least he can't argue that there is a conflict of interest with the person.

Do you think it could be a good idea to ask current T something like:

Dear T, since you are no longer taking the insurance as of 6/15 we are going to go ahead and find a new T for D so that she can get started sooner rather than later. Based on your sessions with D, talking with me about the little bit of work she did with our family T and how involved this T is with us in general do you think that would be more beneficial than starting over with someone new.

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« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2014, 09:03:03 AM »

Do you think it could be a good idea to ask current T something like:

Dear T, since you are no longer taking the insurance as of 6/15 we are going to go ahead and find a new T for D so that she can get started sooner rather than later. Based on your sessions with D, talking with me about the little bit of work she did with our family T and how involved this T is with us in general do you think that would be more beneficial than starting over with someone new.

Do you mean, ask daughter's T?  Be careful, what if you don't get the answer you expect?  So best to keep it to a simple and neutral notification:  ":)ear T, since you are no longer taking the insurance as of 6/15 we are going to go ahead and find a new T for D so that she can get started sooner rather than later."

The T I/family sees has a business partner who she said is excellent with kids so I may book with her so at least he can't argue that there is a conflict of interest with the person.

Sounds like a problem solver's reasonable solution.
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« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2014, 12:42:35 PM »

Ex is not BPD he is NP and so because someone carries PhD he considers them to be the best of the best, I think this comes from his grandiose thinking.

If you feel the need to address this (more for court than anything else), perhaps mention in your email that the new T is board-certified, has these qualifications, has been in practice for x years, etc, comes highly recommended. More as a proactive thing than anything else, so that your ex has no argument. Because saying D needs someone who has a Phd is not an argument... .not to mention it's often more expensive to see a Phd.

My ex (who, like your ex, was also very narcissistic) attempted to undermine everyone I brought in to work with S13. Always they were incompetent for one reason or another. Every court is different, but in our case, that stance really backfired for N/BPDx.



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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2014, 10:37:51 PM »

"my ex insisted they be psychologists/psychiatrists with a Masters degree."

My ex comes up with wacky qualifications like that too.  Maybe it helps them feel like they have a little control or have some impact in the decision making.
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2015, 10:50:28 AM »

Why am I struggling with doing what I know is best? I've read all the suggestions in this thread and without a doubt know that the best thing for my kids is to see this T, why am I doubting myself?

I just want to make sure I'm making the right choice for the kids and I keep trying to look at it from his point of view and ask myself would I be upset if the situation were reversed?
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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2015, 10:59:19 AM »

Why am I struggling with doing what I know is best? I've read all the suggestions in this thread and without a doubt know that the best thing for my kids is to see this T, why am I doubting myself?

I just want to make sure I'm making the right choice for the kids and I keep trying to look at it from his point of view and ask myself would I be upset if the situation were reversed?

The situation would never be reversed, because you can focus on your child, even when you are in disagreement with your ex. I understand what you're saying, and had to work through this myself. With normal people, we don't always have to have 50-foot high boundary walls. But when you're dealing with someone who has a PD, those boundary walls are a way to prevent conflict from overtaking what is best for your D.

I realized that my ex lost the right to be treated like I treat everyone else. That's why I started to rely on family court as my north star when it came to doing what was best for S13.

Boundaries can feel uncomfortable    That's why we don't like to assert them.

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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2015, 11:36:16 AM »

That kind of thinking has gotten me in trouble at times too, and people like LnL have pointed it out - we try to be so fair to our exes, but we need to be fair to the CHILD. 

You know this is the best thing to do, and a judge ultimately would be glad you took a stand.  But it is hard, I understand!

I consider my ex's feelings too, and how powerless he may feel at times since I have most of the custody.  But there's a reason I have it.  We should certainly be diplomatic, but at the same time, do what's right.

I'm slowly learning this just like you.  The kids are fine so far.  But I have to keep asserting boundaries.
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2015, 12:33:51 PM »

Thank you, I know all this in my brain and on one hand I don't really care that he will be mad but something is holding me back... .guess I have to figure out what.

And he certainly doesn't extend me the same courtesy. A month or so ago I got a text that said since mom (his mom) has the kids today she is going to take them to get their flu shots. I told him that I would prefer she not and that he and I could arrange a time to do this together if he wanted to be there (since I like to be there for appointments like this) since he was just telling me there was no way that could happen. He responded and said sorry she is already on her way that he didn't think it would be a big deal. I said I understood she was on her way but that I prefer this not happen... .it did anyway. I found out later from the kids that while they were with grandma dad was actually there too. His GF is a nurse and they went to her office over lunch to have this done.

So I sort of see this as a situation like this, even though I know it is different. I am giving him all info and notice so that he could be involved in the appointment, where is his situation he takes away my opportunity to be involved.

Maybe because I know it will cause a war and things have been so calm and drama free with him recently. 
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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2015, 12:55:48 PM »

I see how you feel that way. Is it possible that you are projecting your feelings from that situation onto him?

Even so, whether he feels one way or another, I think the logic is not quite the same in the two scenarios.

With the therapist situation, he made it impossible for you to resolve something together.

With the flu shots, he made it impossible for you to resolve something together.

Because he made it impossible for you to resolve something together with the therapist, you have to take an action.

Because he made it impossible for you to resolve something together around flu shots, you had no say.

Does that make sense? When it comes to the kids, the two of you do not start out at the same point. He starts from a place of control and entitlement. You are in a position of having to constantly respond to that control and entitlement.

It's also very likely that he feels you are controlling and entitled when it comes to the kids no matter what you do. For pwBPD, feelings = facts. If you agreed to every therapist he suggests, and continued to reject one therapist after another because he didn't like this one or that, he will still see you as controlling and entitled because you have the potential to disagree.    

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« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2015, 01:17:54 PM »

Sometimes I think something will cause a war, and sometimes it even does, at first, but then he gets quiet.  There were a few times that I posted something on this board about him getting mad over something, and I agonized for weeks, and then finally when I did the right thing, I sent a concise (but fair and respectful) email and he didn't even respond.  It was like magic!  That said, I hate when my ex is mad too, so if you can get him to agree somehow, or tell him when he's in a nice mood, or whatever, it can't hurt.  It takes time to learn all of this.
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« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2015, 10:34:49 AM »

I finally sent my ex and email regarding this. here is the exchange, I have an email out to my Attorney to see what I should do... .Can't he just ever play ball.

Son & Daughter Therapy

You mentioned that your preference is that they see a psychiatrist, Ph.D. I did some research on the insurance website and found that within the X/Y area there are 3 that match. When I originally told DD that we would need to switch she did mention that she would like to see a female, of the 3 Mrs. X is the only female. I called to speak to her office since the website stated…

“Psychiatrists are medical doctors with specialty in psychiatry. Most often they conduct a thorough evaluation and prescribe medication, then monitor the effects of the medication. Some psychiatrists also conduct therapy”

The office said that she does not get into the therapy aspect of  working with patients, also she is getting ready to go on leave. The other male doctors are scheduling quite a few months out and one is not set up with most insurance carriers and have the same aspect on “therapy”.

I do not feel that either of the kids are at a place where a psychiatric evaluation and medication are necessary. Given this and my findings I have decided to take the kids to see Mrs. X. Her info is listed below and I have sat up an appointment for next Wednesday at 5pm. She will do an initial evaluation with each of the kids (DD will be Wednesday). She likes to have involvement from both parents, you can work with her to set up time that is convenient for you to discuss.

his response... .

thank you for your thoughts and looking into this but this is not a unilateral decision and if that’s what you want to do that it is your choice.  Just note that I will not pay or be involved in them seeing the same person you have or are seeing.  If you would like to discuss other options please know that I am open to discuss it with you and come to some kind of agreement.


I don't care that he won't be involved. He was barely involved with their current T, most all apts. were made by me and I took them. I only care about his portion of the payment since he pays 72% and I pay 28%. His copay isn't "high" but at $25 bucks a pop it can add up. There is no language in our agreement that states we have to agree or anything like that. I really don't think he can legally just decide not to pay since he doesn't like it?

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« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2015, 12:10:26 PM »

I don't care that he won't be involved. He was barely involved with their current T, most all apts. were made by me and I took them. I only care about his portion of the payment since he pays 72% and I pay 28%. His copay isn't "high" but at $25 bucks a pop it can add up. There is no language in our agreement that states we have to agree or anything like that. I really don't think he can legally just decide not to pay since he doesn't like it?

You may need to pay the full amount for a while until it adds up to enough $$$ to justify collecting it through court.

I wonder if your therapist would consider waiving the co-pay? I don't know how that works with insurance.

This is a point of pain for me too. My ex is supposed to pay 75% and for the last 4 years, I didn't collect. I knew how it would play out, and so many other things were happening that I just let it go. But I also didn't document regular requests to have N/BPDx pay. If you regular ask him to pay, and he doesn't, that will help you in court.

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« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2015, 12:40:27 PM »

I think our ex is the same person.  Mine has gotten me to pay for all their medical stuff with similar emails, and in the end, it's easier than seeking his approval.  He claims I don't consult him, but he says no to everything I want.  That response is exactly what my ex would write to me.  your long, fair explanation is what I often send to him.

It must be a relief to at least move forward - too bad it took all that work and research!

At least he thanked you in his own way.  He sounds high functioning like mine.  His a bit of hostile edge to him like mine.  The writing on its SURFACE seems polite, but there is a seething orderliness and hostility about it - maybe the word is rigidity, like if you don't phrase everything exactly right, he will be furious and everything will tumble.

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« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2015, 12:41:54 PM »

As for the legal language, no, it seems that he would have to pay.  You can send, maybe in a month or two when you are comfortable, another email telling him he will have to pay, or he can add it to the child support.  If he doesn't, your options may be a lawyer letter or court.
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« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2015, 01:20:13 PM »

My court set my ex's portion of health/child expenses at 17% reimbursement years ago.  I've sent her letters in the past, biggest expenses were lunches and dental bills but of course I never got a dime.  One time she paid a few dollars to the school cafeteria for a few lunches, but that was it.  For the last case in court I submitted my letter, bills and certificate of mailing for the prior year's notices when I filed.  But court ruled I didn't prove I had sent them to her?  Maybe it was because my lawyer didn't ask me about those papers already in the court's hands when I was testifying?

In any case, I don't send much to my ex.  I just paid a bill for $31.  Is it worth all the hassle for $5.27?  No.  However, some huge orthodontist bills are approaching and I will send her all the paperwork in advance or as it comes in.  I know she'll claim poverty, probably curse me out too and I'm unlikely to get any reimbursement, but those bills will be big enough to send.  But I have a good order now with 5 years to go until he's 18 and I don't want to be the one to rock the boat.
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« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2015, 01:07:06 PM »

I'm feeling some major anxiety about this decision and I'm not sure how to proceed. So ex has refused to pay or be involved if my kids see this particular T. The ex's reasoning are that he is not comfortable and that is a conflict. Please help me dissect.

I spoke to my attorney today and he asked what ex's suggestion(s) was for who the kids do see. I told him he gave me none (he never does btw, it always ends up with me doing all the leg work and research to find someone). Attorney said he is thinking ahead that if it ended up in court that he could see where some may think that the kids seeing the T I've worked with, as a conflict. He said he personally didn't see the issue but can understand where dad might. Attorney suggested that I could give dad a week to get me names of who he is ok with and then we could agree and move forward.

The advantage to them seeing the person I want is... .This will be the third T since they started going. The first T up and moved to TX with no notice to us, now the 2nd isn't taking our insurance any longer. I've been seeing the same T off/on for 3 years. She is GOOD, she gets it, she takes calls/texts when something comes up outside of sessions (doesn't happen often but it has a few times and she is available for her patients), I trust her, she is reliable and the biggest thing is she knows the entire story. She knows what the kids go through and what kind of person ex is. I feel like the kids have a huge advantage in that she won't take as much time figuring out the dynamic of what the kids go through and can finally get to helping them.

My worries:

1. since dad has voiced that he will not be involved I worry that at some point the kids may blame me for deciding on someone that dad won't be involved with. Or that maybe somehow their therapy will not be hindered in that aspect since he won't participate. He can shake the not being involved if every brought up by telling the kids "well mom picked Mrs. T and I told her I was not ok with that and wouldn't be involved.

2. That if I find someone he agrees with he that since they don't know that entire story that he will somehow manipulate them in such a way that they don't get it and my kids will ultimately suffer and be made to feel like this is all on them.

3. by making this decision on my own knowing ex's feelings I have to be ok paying for it on my own. I could bill him, let him not pay and take him to court at some point but is that really worth it for the possible $600 a year or the fact I could lose. The T I want them to see is so good and it truly isn't about the money with her, she would probably let me pay that off over the course of a thousand lifetimes.

Why am I doubting myself and what I know is best.

Swiggle
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« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2015, 01:20:26 PM »

What are the chances that he will come up with 3 names and numbers of therapists he approves? It's reasonable to give him a deadline. "Ex, please provide the names and numbers of 3 therapists you approve of by day/date so we can move forward. To keep costs down, please be sure to check that they take XYZ insurance."

My ex never, not once in the entire four years, ever did anything proactive when asked. In fact, just the presumption that I expected him to do something made him dig in his heels even more.

If you think your ex will do that too, it will document your reasonable attempts to cooperate, and his inability to follow through.

Then you take your D to see your T. Getting your ex to pay will raise the same issues -- you'll likely have to go to court to claim what he owes, but when he says you took the kids to see your T, you can show your many attempts to work with him, and his inability to cooperate.
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« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2015, 01:53:12 PM »

How do you think this sounds?

Hey Ex

Since you are not in agreement with the T I suggested I was hoping you might have sent me a couple of names of those you do have interest in. Since I have not seen anything from you, can you take a look and send me a couple of names by Friday the 23rd, I'd like to move forward as quickly as possible. Since research has found that most psychiatrists evaluate and prescribe meds but don't deal with the "therapy" part, it is might preference that they not see someone with these credentials. If at any time the person they see thinks this is necessary we can cross that bridge then.

I worry that he will search and find the first two people on the insurance list, just to make it look like he put forth the effort. Am I going to be ok with them not seeing who I want them to see, by asking him his opinion I wonder if that then looks even worse than just doing what I'm going to do?





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« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2015, 02:20:13 PM »

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. It's so frustrating, I know.

If you think your ex will actually do something (mine would just stonewall, he was very predictable and consistent), what if you simply ask him to recommend 3 therapists that meet his criteria by Jan 23. And mention that the kids do not need an MD (psychiatrist). And ask that he make sure they take insurance. At this point, you are not giving him ultimatums or consequences, you're just giving him some narcissistic supply. He feels in control but does nothing. I think you give away too much information in your email -- it's easy to see where you are appeasing, and he will take advantage of that. I would just give him a straightforward request: Please pick 3, etc. etc. by Jan 23. Not necessary to have an MD since D does not need to see psychiatrists because she does not need meds.

Then, if Jan 23 comes and goes and he doesn't send anything, put together a spreadsheet. List the names of therapists in one column, then whether they take insurance in the next column, then their qualifications in the third column (LCSW, Phd, MD). You could add other columns about whether the Ts see kids, the co-pay, their hours, their availability, whether there is a wait list, the distance to drive there. At this point, you create a narcissistic bind for him. You've done all this work and he likes that (control, superiority), but he doesn't want to work with you, and he definitely doesn't want to think through the options. He doesn't even want the kids to go to therapy. It's likely he may stonewall or obstruct.

(If Jan 23 comes and he has suggestions, might as well investigate to see if there is anything you can work with.)

At this point, you have made repeated attempts to give him the opportunity to cooperate. And you have a spreadsheet that is so far above and beyond what anyone would expect, and he still can't cooperate. It will look bad for him in court.

I did this when trying to get N/BPDx to work with me on summer camps for S13. It was his obligation to pay for camps, which he interpreted as veto power, and of course all the work fell to me. Where I live, the whole camp thing is very competitive and you have to get everything in by Feb to make sure child care is covered for the summer. No way would N/BPDx respond to me in a timely way with deadlines and waiting lists. So I put together a spreadsheet with all the camps, the costs, the dates/times, whether there was after care, what kinds of payment they accepted, deadlines for full payment, names and email addresses of the camp directors, websites, S13's preferences ranked in order, etc.

N/BPDx did not respond. So I went ahead and signed S13 up for camps. N/BPDx accused me of making unilateral decisions without his input.  

My L laughed when she saw the spreadsheet (she's a mom), and she used it as an exhibit in one of our hearings to show that N/BPDx obstructed and stonewalled and created excessive conflict when it came to getting S13 into camp. The judge referred to my spreadsheet as "very resourceful."  Being cool (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2015, 09:06:00 PM »

I found that offering my ex choices would sometimes trigger her.  It sounded so simple, list some exchange options that were clearly okay and even favorable to her.  Her overreaction?  "Then I just won't do the exchange!"  Well, she did eventually but the point is that offering options when not necessary gave away some leverage or control that I didn't need to give.

Keeps choices simple and to a minimum.  And something else I learned from Speakers School... .ask a vague question and you are unlikely to get the answer you want.  So when you write or speak, say only what matters, keep it short (we encourage a 3 sentence rule around here) and keep it focused on topic.
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2015, 09:11:33 AM »

So I sent this...

Hey Ex

If you could please send me a couple of names that meet your criteria by Friday that would be great.

His response

Is there a reason there is a deadline by Friday? I didn't give you one when you did your research. I'll see what I can do and get back to you as soon as possible.


Now mind you the last conversation we had about this was that the current lady is no longer taking his insurance and we will have to find someone new. We never not once discussed who would look, when we would revisit the issue. This all happened at the beginning of December and he did nothing, not one thing or said one thing about it until I brought it up again last week. And he is making it sound like he asked me to research and I took my time.

I want to respond and say

Dear X

the reason there is a deadline is because you will stall and drag your feet, that is your MO. And you didn't give me a time frame on my research because you don't give two ___s about this at all and pretending like you do is laughable. You have not stated nor asked one thing about the kids T since our brief convo back in December about Dr. X not taking your insurance any longer. Had I not brought this up you would have never said another word aobut it because you think it is not necessary they see someone even though you accuse our 11 year old daughter of being crazy, mentally unstable and that it is "sad" that she can't manage her own issues without having to talk to a professional.

Thanks email me by Friday.
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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2015, 09:33:12 AM »

I found that offering my ex choices would sometimes trigger her.  It sounded so simple, list some exchange options that were clearly okay and even favorable to her.  Her overreaction?  "Then I just won't do the exchange!"  Well, she did eventually but the point is that offering options when not necessary gave away some leverage or control that I didn't need to give.

I see what you're saying -- I'm looking at this exact same behavior as a plus because he won't comply. I've been in court too much    When you can document the stonewalling/obstruction, that can at least help strategically with the legal piece.
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« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2015, 09:38:24 AM »

I found that offering my ex choices would sometimes trigger her.  It sounded so simple, list some exchange options that were clearly okay and even favorable to her.  Her overreaction?  "Then I just won't do the exchange!"  Well, she did eventually but the point is that offering options when not necessary gave away some leverage or control that I didn't need to give.

I see what you're saying -- I'm looking at this exact same behavior as a plus because he won't comply. I've been in court too much    When you can document the stonewalling/obstruction, that can at least help strategically with the legal piece.

I feel like that is what he is trying to do with his response. I posted it above. I knew giving him a deadline would be an issue, but not giving one he would not respond until I asked again claiming "I didn't know this was that important"
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2015, 09:51:38 AM »

I found that offering my ex choices would sometimes trigger her.  It sounded so simple, list some exchange options that were clearly okay and even favorable to her.  Her overreaction?  "Then I just won't do the exchange!"  Well, she did eventually but the point is that offering options when not necessary gave away some leverage or control that I didn't need to give.

I see what you're saying -- I'm looking at this exact same behavior as a plus because he won't comply. I've been in court too much    When you can document the stonewalling/obstruction, that can at least help strategically with the legal piece.

I feel like that is what he is trying to do with his response. I posted it above. I knew giving him a deadline would be an issue, but not giving one he would not respond until I asked again claiming "I didn't know this was that important"

You could draw this out a little. Send him a reply that says, "Please let me know when you will send your recommendations."

He will rebuke you.

Then Friday, write to say, "I have not received any recommendations, nor have you let me know when you will send them. Please let me know when you will send your recommendations."

The point being that in court, your L will stand up and say, "Swiggle sent an email on day/date, day/date, day/date, day/date and again on day/date asking Mr. N/BPDx to participate in selecting a T for D11. Mr. N/BPD stonewalled and obstructed and threatened to not cooperate and pay for T if Swiggle did what any parent would do to provide support for their child. The only reason we are here is because Mr. N/BPD would not cooperate, and then threatened to not pay medical, which is in violation of the court order."

The court order says that your ex has to pay, it doesn't say that you both have to agree, right? Although agreement is often implied. And the fact he is agreeing but stonewalling suggests he knows that he's supposed to cooperate. Even based on technicalities, your ex will be in contempt of court if he doesn't pay. Showing a pattern of obstruction just helps if you want to go for sole custody. If you don't want to push it that far, documenting the pattern of obstruction might get the judge to award legal fees in your favor.

There really is very little any of us can do to get pwBPD to cooperate, so all we can do is collect and document to demonstrate the issues to court.

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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2015, 10:21:44 AM »

My worry with asking "when" he will send his suggestions opens the door for him to say something like a date that is not within an acceptable timeframe. Then I feel like I'm stuck having to wait until he responds. Then it becomes a battle about an acceptable timeframe all the while the kids aren't getting the T they need. And If I'm given a timeframe from him then making a decision on my own may get frowned upon since I didn't give dad the chance to make suggestions.

I mean really it takes 5 minutes to look at names. I did it yesterday, went to the insurance website, put in the zip code, and click find and it listed all the available options. You can't tell me that 4 days isn't enough time for you to look for a name and then call a couple? But for him it isn't enough time because this isn't important to him and he knows that it is important to me.

I think if I don't respond to his obvious attempts to bait then two things will happen.

1. if I don't have anything on Friday I will follow up with the "hi haven't heard from you on your suggestions" which will probably make him mad

2. hopefully he will give me something prior to Friday.

If he has spoken to his L he may realize that by making it difficult could not go his way.

Ultimately I just want my kids back in T. Do I really really want them to see my lady, YES. But the more important thing is that they are seeing someone that I'm not on the hook paying for by myself and that this person can have involvement from Dad.(although he isn't ever really involved so I use that lightly)

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« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2015, 04:26:34 PM »

The only thing that ended up working for me was to say what I was going to do, and then "if I don't hear from you by day/date, I will interpret that as consent."

But you have a slightly different problem, which is getting him to agree AND pay. My ex would just not pay, so I pretty much assumed I was going to have to get that worked out in court. Which gets expensive. Usually I would wait and roll it into whatever other motion was happening. And there was always something happening -- over 60 court filings in 4 years.

I'll never marry a N/BPD lawyer again. 

Maybe you need to separate the issues? One is getting a T for D. The other is getting your ex to pay. Court expects him to pay whether he agrees or not, so he'll eventually have to pay. Sometimes I found it easier to separate out the priority and focus on that, and then deal with the other stuff later with lawyers. Not a great solution, but I didn't see how else to get S13's needs met.

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