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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: Need feedback on validation skills  (Read 376 times)
Swiggle
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« on: January 12, 2015, 09:45:33 AM »

I'm having a really hard time with knowing if I'm validating the right way. The only thing I've read (half way done) is the power of validation, do you have other suggestions for reading?

There was an incident this weekend on Saturday and I said something to the uBPDex. We had a pretty easy going day... .all kids had karate, we ran a couple of errands, had chic filet where SS7 and DS7 played in the play area for almost an hour while SD12 and D11 and I ate and talked. The boys starting getting crazy at the end of running our shopping errands so when we got home I told them I needed a break from the noise so they had to find something quiet to do or they could be silly and loud as much as they wanted up in their room. The rest of the afternoon was a lazy one we all sat together working on different things and interacting. DH got home from work and we all continued hanging out, eating dinner, talking and doing out own things. Even though it was an easy going day I felt irritated and I'm not sure why.

About 8 bio mom calls to chat with kids, when SS gets on facetime with her he starts sulking and pouting. She asks him if he is sad and he says no but that it wasn't a very fun day. She says it's ok it'll be over soon only two more days until your are home  . I didn't say anything but could feel the fumes coming out of my ears Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Then she asks him if he did his homework and he says no... .I look at him and said hey SS you told me you did all your homework at mom's on. He said oh I forgot. When I made the comment about the work bio mom responds with it is nothing new he has homework every week. Normally I would just shut my mouth but for whatever reason I said well I'm sorry but as his mom I thought that you would've made sure everything was done before he came to our house. I was so mad at myself for even saying anything! The kids had snow days last Wed-Th-Fri and bio mom had him Mon-Tues so there is no reason he should come to our house with a bunch of homework.

After the phone call with bio mom, my DH was upset and so we had a talk with SS and asked him why he felt it was so horrible at our house (he said this during the call with mom). He said it wasn't horrible so then we asked him why he told mom that. In the end he said it was because it wasn't a fun day, we don't love him, we don't want him around and he gets yelled at and has to do things, and have a bedtime, and eat veggies. You know all the things bio mom doesn't make him do... .it is so frustrating. At one point during the convo when we asked him another question about his feelings and our home he wouldn't answer stating that he didn't have to tell us because that was between him and his mom. This is the second time in a month that he has made that comment and I think we need to figure out what is really going on.

One of the things he brought up was going to bed early. Our rules are during the school week the boys have to be in bed by 830 and we try to have them there by 8 if it is a night with no activities and what not. On weekends they are in bed by 9 sometimes later (if special occasion) but that doesn't happen often. He said that he feels like we don't want him around because we make him go to bed early. See at mom's he falls asleep whenever and wherever he is and she carries him to bed... .he brags that he does this at mom's and SD has confirmed this. Anyway I was emotionally spent and without thinking I said fine you can stay up go to bed whenever you want, the only rule is you are not to fall asleep anywhere but your bed. I then took the dog for a very long walk in the freezing cold snow where I cried and cried, was mad, wanted to give up you know all the emotions.

Came back from my walk feeling a little better but still not 100% told DD11 and SD12 that they needed to be in bed by 10 and headed up for a shower. DH had worked all day and was up at 6 that morning so he headed up to bed as well. DS was in bed at 9 so SS was all by himself downstairs but he was getting to stay up late. The girls went to bed and DH and I talked while laying in bed until about 11, SS ended up going to bed about 1030 Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). He didn't make it very late.

Yesterday SS was acting crabby so I told him he needed to take a nap. Of course he was mad and I just calmly explained that when you stay up late and have a hard time the next day you have to take a nap... .he was asleep within 10 min and slept for almost 2 hours. He needs his sleep I can see it in him all the time, he comes home from mom's house exhausted and sleeps like a baby with us. But I am made out to be the bad guy for having rules around all sorts of things.

I know this is long thanks if you read this far, I needed to get it off my chest.

Swiggle
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livednlearned
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2015, 01:18:47 PM »

Hi Swiggle,

I think I've cried more while walking my dog than any other time.    It's a good way to de-stress. You have a hard situation because SS is young, but also enmeshed with his mom. He sounds a little lost.  :'(

Validation is not easy -- I think it might actually be harder for a SS than it would be with your own D. I know it would be hard for me to have the same feelings toward my SO's son. He is manipulative, he lies, he is lazy, and tries to press buttons. And he's not my child, so I don't have the same emotions invested, and I find myself trying to like him. It's hard.

There is so much going on in what you describe -- my instinct when reading what your SS said is that he plays you. But it's hard to know from reading.

One other variation on validation is S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth. So a version might be, "You feel that your mom loves you because she lets you stay up until whenever you want. That must feel bad to feel that we don't love you." Then pause. Let him have his moment. Then, "Our way of loving you is different than bio mom's, we care about your body having enough sleep so that you can get through the day without feeling irritated with family, with yourself, with situations. It's a rule to be in bed by x o'lock in our house so that everyone feels rested and can be more loving toward each other. I'm glad you let us know that you feel that way. Maybe we can change the schedule on the weekend so that when you get here, we do xyz for 30 minutes and then have bedtime. On the weekends, we can do abc together so that you feel we are spending enough time with you." As my S got older, I started to let him stay up later. He's the kind of kid who will stay up all night if I let him, and needs melatonin to sleep. One night, it was about midnight when I told him it was time for lights out. He was 13 and it was a 4-day weekend, and we had nothing planned the next day. He actually got irritated with me, and accused me of not paying attention to him for letting him stay up so late. I think kids know that structure and routine is how parents keep them safe, and that makes them feel loved. The trouble with SS is that he knows he can play the situation in his favor, and he will test and test and test and test. Having boundaries with him, consistent ones, is going to be more important than for other kids, is my guess.

Another thing I had to figure out with S13 is that he needed strong *unpleasant* and consistent boundaries. I went very soft with him after leaving his dad because he had been treated so roughly by N/BPDx. I overdid it in the opposite direction. A book that helped me was Parenting Kids with Love and Logic, and then I got the teen version of the book. I had to learn that with S13, he needed consequences, he just didn't need me scolding him or making him feel stupid. So if he didn't have clean clothes to wear on Monday because he didn't do laundry, then I wouldn't scold him, but I would say, "I guess you have to wear dirty clothes today." No anger, just consequences.

If your SS lies about doing his homework and doesn't do it with his mom, that's going to be a hard consequence for him to learn. But you can help him see the consequence coming. My son hates brushing his teeth, so I started to say, "I'm not a big fan of looking at dirty teeth, I don't think anyone is. But I'm more wondering what you're going to do if your teeth need a lot of dental work when you're older. Are you going to pay a lot of money to get them fixed?" It's a process to start doing this with kids, and it might be harder with SS because he's manipulative, and he has his mom in his pocket.

I don't know. I don't mean to make it sound easy, because it isn't. It's always hard when you're already upset too -- I think you have to be gentle with yourself. SS punched your D and that must make you feel some animosity toward him, maybe some guilt. I always lose my temper when i haven't been taking care of myself, so maybe you feel that you're in a constant state of trying to protect D, and it wears you down. When SS makes you feel compromised, it creates stress and anger because he's a kid, and seems to be running the show more than you want.

That might mean you have to put yourself first for a while until you shore up some strength.
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2015, 03:47:13 PM »

I usually hate walking the dog in the cold but that and a shower seem to be the only place when the kids are around that I can think without hearing Mom... .mom... .mom Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

This validation thing is so hard! I read and think of ways to validate for issues I know might come up but it is the ones that catch you off guard that make it tough. You're right that I don't have the same emotions for SS like I do my kids. I've actually talked to my T about this because at one point I was feeling guilt about it. She said it was normal of course because of the maternal bond I have with my son and daughter. I work hard at being that kind of person for SS because I know his mom isn't the loving, motherly type but it is really hard when he does crap like this.

Your example of S.E.T and how his mom lets him stay, I think that is where he has trouble trying to make sense of two very different household rules and he does sometimes have black and white thinking. If mom lets him stay up until whenever and says she does so because she loves him then when we don't it must mean we don't love him. If he were to ask us about the different rules we would say that sometimes rules are different and mom's rules aren't right and our wrong or vice/versa just that they are different. But we know that mom does not do that she is they type that would take it a step further and say well they don't let you stay up because they don't love you, see I love you so I let you stay up to spend time with you. I try not to get frustrated with him because I know it isn't his fault, you know but sometimes it is so hard. Our T thinks he has some characteristics like his mom of BPD since he has a tough time self regulating, black/white thinking, impulse control, not being comfortable with himself, he wants everyone to do everything for him and goes into victim mode when something doesn't go his way. All things I feel he learns from mom.

I agree to that kids sometimes want routine and boundaries and as much as they won't admit it they know it means they are loved. I've read the book love and logic but I did not know there was a teen version, I think I will pick that up.

thanks for the suggestions.

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livednlearned
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2015, 05:52:50 PM »

Validation is hard. I know what you mean about how you feel like you get certain scenarios down, but then something comes up that you're not prepared for. My T told me to give myself time outs, and I think for about a year I was taking time outs every day. I did it in a meeting one time  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) when my supervisor was rolling over my boundaries and I felt myself reverting to old habits. So helpful.

One thing too occurred to me -- my son used to tell me how I felt all the time, a habit he got from his dad. "You don't love me, you love the dog more than me, etc." I started to say, "I'm the only person who can say how I feel. You can say how you feel." Maybe you can try a version of that on SS: "I can't tell you whether someone else loves you. I can only tell you how I feel. If someone tells you how I feel, I would want to know how they know that without asking me."

He's 7, right? That seems so young for BPD traits, poor kid. I wonder if he's an "out-of-sync" child? Some occupational therapists have said that BPD traits can stem from sensory processing disorder, or what some people call sensory defensiveness.

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« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2015, 10:22:00 AM »

He's 7... .he's doing what 7 year old's do.   He's figured out how to get his way.  He didn't have fun?  You're not a cruise director.  Many kids will pull the "it's so horrible at _____'s house."  It's my S7 who tests the boundaries and rules by telling me what he is allowed to do at dad's.  I tell him, "2 houses, 2 sets of rules bud."  We have bedtime struggles too.  It's simply the rules because I'm the mom and this is what I think is best for him and my job as MOM is to do what I think is best.  I tell him I set the rules now, but when he's grown up, he can choose for himself.   All is said matter of factly, with it because I DO love you VERY much I set these rules.   SD12 is the one who reports things are SO bad here.   When I've heard her do this, I've confronted her by letting her know how I remember the day and the things I did to try to make the day good for her.  I'm sorry those efforts were futile and she had a bad time.  I have told her it makes me sad for her that she didn't remember or enjoy the day as pleasantly as I did.  She is older, so I've also told her that it's up to she and I to have a good relationship when she's here.  We can work together and be kind to each other and feel close or she will end up feeling like just a visitor in her own home.  She is very enmeshed with her mom.  Mom tries to make our home out to be a place to be waited out,  so SD acts this out from time to time.  I try to remind her I love her and love sharing a home with her, and that I really wished she liked it here more.  But my husband and I point out she has to allow it as well because time with BOTH parents is so important.   "Living with just mom" wouldn't be healthy because she needs a relationship with dad.  No other options until she is older and can set rules for herself.   It's very hard to hear your home is a "bad place."   It's your home, which you spend considerable time and effort to make a good place for all the members.  When the shorter ones degrade your home (which is my happy place), it's so  hard.  I'm right there with you.  But try not to give away your parental position.  They are kids and need you to set those boundaries.   
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« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2015, 01:26:25 PM »

After serious talks and such it's probably good to wrap it up with a hug or some comment about him/her being loved, etc, whatever you consider caring and appropriate in your household and for the situation.  No matter how rough it is - especially with the his house and her house comparisons - try to have things end up on a soft note - which I'm sure you're doing.
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« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2015, 02:19:34 PM »

LNL - I did some reading on the out of sync child and that doesn't seem to fit his behaviors. Maybe his issues aren't traits but more learned behavior from mom I don't know. T did mention early on when she started seeing him that he has some attachment issues. DH describes mom as not much of a parent when it came to parenting the kids. He did most of the "stuff" early on and says the SS seemed more like an annoyance than anything. This still holds true not to mention that it seems as though she uses him as a pawn when it benefits her. T thinks that because of mom's issues SS didn't get a strong bond with her from the get go.

When T first met with DH and SS together she shared with me later (we have an agreement that family therapies can be discussed among the parents so no confidentiality issues) that there was a disconnect between the two of them, that they didn't seem bonded like DH was with SD. She couldn't quite put her finger on what might be the cause since it had only been a couple of visits. I explained to her that bio mom had started an affair juuuuust before she got pregnant with SS. DH didn't have proof of the affair until after SS was born but knew it started before he was conceived. From the beginning he had this nagging thought that maybe he wasn't his. I can only imagine how that might feel and would assume that could hinder bonding between DH and SS. When I told T all this she was like yep that is the main issue with DH and SS. He began working with them on that and we found out for sure that SS is in fact DH's son so that was a huge relief to him and has helped. With all of the issues DH and uBPDex were having during the first couple years of SS's life I think really took it's toll on SS and that is where a lot of this stuff comes from and add in seeing mom's toxic behaviors and badmouthing us every chance she gets. SD was like this when I first met her and she has really come along way and sees how mom really is. SD was just a bit older than SS when I came into the picture so I hope with time he will come around to.

11yearsago - I use the line "our house our rules, Mom's house Mom's rules" all the time. I am very careful to not say one is good the other is bad I just explain that they are different but it doesn't make one good one bad. If asked why I do X and biomom does Y I say because I do what I think is best based on my beliefs. I don't have issues with my SD much anymore, quite the opposite, I think she realizes that I'm in her corner and always will be. She confides in me and comes to me with the hard stuff she knows she can't trust mom for that kind of stuff.

FD - I don't hide emotion well at all and think everyone knew I was pretty upset. Once I got myself together he was sitting on the couch by himself (everyone else had went to bed). I went down and said I can't tuck you in since you are staying up and I'm headed to bed then I kissed him on the head just like I always do and told him I loved him and to have a good night. I also mentioned to make sure he turned all the lights off when he was done.

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« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2015, 02:47:34 PM »

Bill Eddy said kids with BPD parents have a 5 times higher chance of developing BPD traits. The out-of-sync kids (sensory processing issues) and kids with poor attachment have similar emotional/psychological issues, so it makes sense that SS might exhibit similar behavioral problems. Just the little you describe of him, he seems lost  :'(

I think it's important to recognize that validation has limitations, and that raising kids -- even *normal* kids -- is hard. Raising step kids = even harder. Add to that potential BPD traits and a BPD bioparent and that's a recipe for some very tough situations. I bet you're doing a really good job, but maybe it's never going to be 100% because who does that?  Smiling (click to insert in post)

My son picked up some traits I found very difficult and it's taken 4 years and a lot of work and therapy to try and deal with issues. If there is anything I could pinpoint and say "that worked" it would have to be validation first. And then this other thing I started doing -- saying out loud how I was feeling. "I woke up feeling irritable today, so I need to take care of myself. If you want help with homework tonight, ask before 5pm. After that I will be tapped out and giving myself some time to relax." I know it sounds a bit corny, but providing a narrative to my emotional life seemed to really help S13 understand that he had one too, and to respect what mine was. But we're just a party of two in this household, and not all techniques work for all situations.
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« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2015, 03:09:38 PM »

I am almost done with the power of validation book and have really tried to use what I've learned so far. I like your idea about stating your feelings out loud and you're right SS seems lost. It is like he isn't quite sure where he "fits" in or how to act, when he is nervous he makes really annoying sounds over and over and over and can't quite sit still, always fidgeting. When he gets in trouble for something he becomes a victim and gets pouty. When he gets consequences for something he can either get really angry or cries and does the you don't love me stuff. If he isn't treated the exact same, get the exact same time/things his siblings get then he turns it into not being loved.

At night I snuggle with my son, read and chat for a bit before I tuck him in. SS will watch intently and often asks his dad to lay with him. He has mentioned how his mom never does this with him so you can tell he is longing for that connection and doesn't have it with anyone. Even though DH will read and chat with him they don't really snuggle and DH falls asleep usually. It just feels like he longs for the "mom" bond but is constantly left not getting it, it breaks my heart. 

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