BPD "Label" Confusions

[Restored2]

I met with a psychologist yesterday who knows both my ex-girlfriend and I on a personal level as friends.  He warned me to not get caught up in "the label" of BPD, but rather to look at it all as an attachment issue.  He said that one can get lost in labels/titles.  Any thoughts on this?

 

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[formflier]

I met with a psychologist yesterday who knows both my ex-girlfriend and I on a personal level as friends.  He warned me to not get caught up in "the label" of BPD, but rather to look at it all as an attachment issue.  He said that one can get lost in labels/titles.  Any thoughts on this?

 

Very wise advice! 

Focus on behaviors... .not labels.

BPD is a "spectrum disorder"... .high functioning to low functioning... .queen to waif... .  you need to understand the spectrum and the behaviors... .so you can figure out where your SO falls out on this... .and to figure an appropriate strategy.

Labels are great for Ps making treatment decisions... .

I don't really think they help in a r/s

[Restored2]

Thanks for clarifying, formflier.  I would not have expected this response from a Board Advisor on a website entitled bpdfamily.  How would this help to "figure an appropriate strategy" for my SO?

[EaglesJuju]

Hi Restored,

I agree with FF. Basically, all personality disorders are a pervasive set of maladaptive behaviors that are grouped together and given a label. The maladaptive behaviors are somewhat generalized, but the severity differs amongst pwBPD. For example, someone could have 4 out of 9 of the diagnostic criteria for BPD. They may not be diagnosed according to the DSM, but they display prominent traits.

I suffer from dependent personality disorder (DPD). I do not like to label myself, but I tend to focus/working on behaviors that are frustrating or annoying. Applying this to my pwBPD, I look to cope with the behaviors that affect me greatly. I can cope with projection and rages rather well, but avoidance and silent treatment really affect me. 

What behaviors that your pwBPD displays that really upset you or you have a hard time coping with?

[Restored2]

Hi EaglesJuju.

Thanks for clarifying.

A previous Board Advisor on bpdfamily named "AnOught" posted the below message on October 31, 2010:

"My limited understanding is that the attachment disorder genesis discussion is more focused what happens childhood. Inappropriate parenting can damage the attachment system and a child of a BPD parent is exposed to some specific inappropriate parenting behaviors and through them is at some risk.  BPD is a lot about relationships once the person has matured to an adult and so attachment dynamics themselves (as aspect of relationship) are an important concept. Problems with attachment sure can add to the dysfunction in the relationship but are certainly not the sole reason for the roller-coaster. And on the other side of the curb attachment problems may linked with the difficulties to let go in the face of overwhelming facts from the non side."  

To answer your question, I guess it would be avoidance and silent treatment that I am having a hard time processing and coping with as well.  My pwBPD was high functioning and non-dramatic, who triggered and abruptly cut off the relationship via an email entitled "Goodbye" and matching voice mail message that was just as cold and harsh.  Without any warrant, she then blocked me from communications (phone,text and email).  The way this was all mishandled is difficult for me to accept.  

[drummerboy]

I'm seeing a psyc and also have one as a good friend, they both hate the labels that the DSM forces on them and say they are only there for the insurance industry. Both of them prefer to talk about cluster B as most people with personality disorders have some BPD, HPD, NPD etc traits. Low self esteem, no sense of self, apparent lack of empathy, self absorbed and the resultant coping mechanisms are common across the cluster.

[Restored2]

Thanks for your response, drummerboy.  It's good to know that your psychologists are on the same page as the one that I met with yesterday.

[EaglesJuju]

To answer your question, I guess it would be avoidance and silent treatment that I am having a hard time processing and coping with as well.  My pwBPD was high functioning and non-dramatic, who triggered and abruptly cut off the relationship via an email entitled "Goodbye" and matching voice mail message that was just as cold and harsh.  Without any warrant, she then blocked me from communications (phone,text and email).  The way this was all mishandled is difficult for me to accept.  

I understand how it can be difficult for you to accept.  Sometimes trying to make sense out of something that logically does not make sense is difficult.

Optimally, in a relationship there should be secure attachments. PwBPD tend to have insecure attachment styles. Insecure attachments styles are reflective of the caregiver's behavior during childhood. There are two patterns in adult insecure attachment: attachment anxiety and avoidance. Attachment anxiety is reflective of fears of abandonment and separation.  Attachment avoidance is discomfort with intimacy and dependency. Research has suggested, pwBPD tend to have high attachment anxiety and avoidance (fearful attachment) or high attachment anxiety and low avoidance (preoccupied attachment styles). (For a secure attachment, low avoidance/anxiety is key)

I tend to be very high in attachment anxiety. I have fears of abandonment and separation. For this reason, the silent treatment and avoidance is my Achilles heel.

[EaglesJuju]

I'm seeing a psyc and also have one as a good friend, they both hate the labels that the DSM forces on them and say they are only there for the insurance industry. Both of them prefer to talk about cluster B as most people with personality disorders have some BPD, HPD, NPD etc traits. Low self esteem, no sense of self, apparent lack of empathy, self absorbed and the resultant coping mechanisms are common across the cluster.

Most people have personality traits that could fit into a cluster A,B,C personality disorder. There tends to be overlap amongst the clusters, especially cluster B, but there are significant differences.

[Restored2]

Thank you for your affirmation, EaglesJuju.  Interesting stuff you shared.  You're right, it's difficult to logically make sense out of something that is illogical.  The psychologist friend highly recommended the book entitled Attachments by Clinton and Sibcy.  Maybe something to add to the resources at bpdfamily.

[Notwendy]

"Labels" are useful for different reasons. It is understandable that a parent would not want a child "labeled" with a learning problem, but that label might be what gets the child help in school, since a school system requires one. A mental health professional would need to use them for charting and billing.

However, like many spectrum disorders, people with the same "label" can be very different too, and each person has a different personality. I think a label helps to group some behaviors together, and provide some general explanation and approaches. However, each individual behavior may or may not fit each person exactly.

If you are looking for help for someone with the kinds of behaviors pwBPD have, you are probably going to find more useful help looking at information about BPD than if you looked at information for people with another disorder, but you may also find that a lot of them have overlapping symptoms.

Label or not, finding out about BPD was like turning a light bulb on to the confusion and mystery I grew up with being the daughter of a BPD mom, and for that, the label was worth it to me.

[SlyQQ]

Labels mean nothing its whats in the bottle that matters

but with most bottles marked dangerous you should read

the instructions very carefully before opening

[waverider]

Out of all the disorders BPD probably has the widest, and hardest, variance to understand. So even though we recognize the traits described by the various members the pwBPD themsleves make up a far more diverse spectrum than most disorders.

The label itself is probably more useful to us to point us in the right direction of realizing it is a mishmash and not to slavishly apply set approaches.

Most of the lessons and guidelines here are actually aimed at us, and are applicable when dealing with anyone, disorder or not.

Unless you live close to BPD the label means nothing anyway. To those that live close to it they interpret it as they see their case at hand, we rarely see how pwBPD really are that we are not close to as it is hidden by nature. That is, my version of the label will be different to yours. So its only a close approximation at best.

[Restored2]

Thanks for your responses, Notwendy, slyQQ and waverider.

Notwendy: I hear where you are coming from on the "labels" deal.  I can also relate to your light bulb analogy.  It was the label of BPD that got me on the right track towards enlightenment of this disorder that lead to this bpdfamily website.  For this I am very grateful.  I don't believe the term "attachment" delivers the same punch of information out there over the internet as the label "BPD" does.  "Terms" and "labels" aren't really that much different, as they all identify in description something, which is human language.

slyQQ: Very insightful point you make on labels.  I agree, it is the contents that matter most.  It's too bad that every BPD person didn't come with an instruction manual.

waverider: I have noticed the wide variances of BPD disorder that you made mention of, just from reading the various accounts of people on this discussion forum.  I also agree with you regarding needing to be living in close relationship with a BPD person in order to see the disorder displayed in action.  Otherwise it can be easily hidden indeed. 

 

[braveSun]

Thank you Waverider for adding this thoughtful remark about closeness to the person. It's absolutely true that I don't live with the pwBPD in my life.

I can see more clearly that this detachment can affect my perception on the degree of manifestation of the traits, more so since we are NC for a little while now. I certainly may underestimate the presence of her BPD traits while I'm more involved with my own life alone. I can get more hopeful...

Also, I would add that the detachment can be good where it helps me see a broader picture, where labels are maybe a bit less important, now that I know fully of the presence of the disorder, but looking more at the issues/behaviors themselves, the ones affecting me personally.

I would say there is a relationship language we, as two people, have with each other, where it pretty much feels like we recognize ourselves and each other. Does BPD exclude that from happening at all?

I my case, I am inclined to see that the BPD behaviors are more acute when my SO (or myself) is in a stressful situation, but less 'there', when things are calmer all together.

Thoughts?

[Restored2]

bravesun: I have personally experienced in my relationship the negative affects that stress has to trigger the acting out of more BPD behaviors.

[waverider]

I would say there is a relationship language we, as two people, have with each other, where it pretty much feels like we recognize ourselves and each other. Does BPD exclude that from happening at all?

It does happen but it is not allways harmonious. We can start to take on traits ourselves, its called fleas . Even with the "good" we are often bonding with the insecurities that we have ourselfs. of course the whole thing is confused by the presence of mirroring and projection. Soioi t has hard to see what is real and what is just bounced back. Keep in mind morroring is often subconscious and not allways a deliberate "sales trick"

I my case, I am inclined to see that the BPD behaviors are more acute when my SO (or myself) is in a stressful situation, but less 'there', when things are calmer all together.

The pwBPD still thinks in a disordered way it is just that stress triggers defensive, and often aggressive reactions, as the fight or flight mechanism kicks. If it is us that is stressed they are reacting to / mirroring our alarm signals, rather than trying to sooth us.

Its a bit like someone who is color blind and cant differentiate red, most of the time they get by without drama. But if a situation arises where they have to hit the red emergency stop button then there is a drama. Their disability in processing colors is always there its just not always causing a problem

[Stalwart]

Restored: Great to hear from you here.

Your psychologist sounds absolutely right from my experience. Fact is and it's already been mentioned that it's my take through three years of extensive, intense learning that BPD of all the cluster B conditions may well be the most complicated - both affecting the emotions and reactions of your spouse as well as challenging to understand because of the individual nuances and experiences the person with the illness has suffered through in their lives. The scars are deep, raw, unmended and difficult for them to cope with and one things for certain; I don't believe they ever forget a negative experience in their lives.

Labels aren't useful when you can't define the product on them. Neither are the stigma and misunderstandings  that many relate through really bad experiences dealing in a relationship with this disorder.

I'm one of the fortunate ones that went three years ago+ from recognizing my wife's disorder when we were really at the bottom of a terrible pit that I won't go into here, but suffice to say a relationship couldn't be too much worse or hopeless (without having physical violence involved) to today when my wife and I have been able to turn this around and now share in a stable and really good relationship together. I'm blessed for that, so is she. It's all covered in one quick sentence but don't let that fool you, it has been so much learning, changing myself and her recognizing accepting her illness and also getting professional help to assist changing herself. Like I said I am one of the lucky ones and know I'm blessed because of it - I so wish the same for everyone here who is trying to improve their relationships because I know the personal depths it can drag you into.

Learning is everything and it's really difficult to not only learn the tools here and put them into practice naturally and well but there is one more learning process that I found vital to being able to come to radical acceptance of my wife's thinking and learn to understand that it should not affect my own ego and me so personally - you have to learn her inside and out. Her past experiences and you have to walk those miles and years in her shoes remembering the entire time that what she experienced when you try to relate to it from her perception is only one tenth of the emotional stress that you will ever feel trying your best to relate and empathize with it. If you can master walking in her shoes, her experiences and relate to the emotional upheaval it is so profound that it brings recognition and acceptance to her thinking and reactions to situations.

If there is anything I can't overemphasize it's the need for absolute understanding of the way she thinks, her past experiences that enforce that thinking and total acceptance of that thinking being her reality and that's OK. It's the reality you have to work with in your interactions with her. You'll never change that, only she can. So many judge that reality and consider it 'warped'. Honestly it's no more warped in her world than your reality, rationalization, judgment, actions, reactions, morals and perception is in yours. They're just different and both are acceptable simply by their existence without one or the other being right or wrong. Just recognizing and accepting her existence is the only right thing in dealing with BPD.

Understanding to a point of absolute empathy about the events in her past that have brought her to the necessity of her reality and subsequent actions and reactions is so necessary - in fact I can't imagine being able to do it without that. It's not about 'feeling sorry for her' at all, it's only about understanding and recognition of her reality and knowing I can't change that but I can change my reactions and interactions to ensure she feels trusted, listen to and care for. Tough part is gaining her trust to the point that she can and will confide her feelings and her past without being put in a situation that may trigger her doing so. If people can master that they are well on their way to mastering a better relationship. Again, easily said but long, trying, difficult and challenging to accomplish well. What's worth achieving if it comes easily eh?

I really hope you can go forward and really understand that it is ONLY about the relationship between the two of you and not the labels or opinions of other about you, her or your relationship that matter. It's about the two of you if you're dedicated to continuing the relationship and moving it forward. For that reason, yup, you have a good friend and psychologist there.

[formflier]

Stalwart,

Great post!  Great post... .really got me thinking. 

I've got a couple alternatives that might get others thinking... .and get some good discussion going.

  I don't believe they ever forget a negative experience in their lives.

What if we considered the malleability of their memories to emotions... .(instead of the other way around)... .?

And what if we changed the statement to read...

I don't believe they ever forget a negative emotion in their lives.

Now... not suggesting the remember them all the time... but certainly when my wife is triggered... .about me being a jerk... ."hating her"... .whatever... .

I believe she is dealing with memories... .and the present event.  She has said as much in and out of therapy.

How does this affect the way we view the disorder?... .the people with it?... .how we behave around them... with them?

If there is anything I can't overemphasize it's the need for absolute understanding of the way she thinks

is acceptance a better word?  I thin you used that later in your post.  I would like to understand... .but I don't.  However... .I do accept that she thinks and experiences the world in a very different way that I do.  A fundamentally different way.

[Notwendy]

What a great post Stalwart. It makes sense to think that the pain they feel inside at a particular incident is so much more than we can imagine.

All of us have hurts and disappointments in relationships. Nobody likes them, but for most of us, the feelings are manageble. In every relationship, there are times when one or the other partner isn't available- is tired, not feeling well, preoccupied. It never made sense to me why my H would rage and become punitive (not physically, but verbally, withdraw, ST at what he perceived or imagined was a slight, even if what he thought was one wasn't or was never intended.) In his world, he was dishing out a punishment in proportion to his feelings ( and feelings are real).

It's pretty confusing to me when rage or anger come seemingly out of the blue sometimes, or when they seem out of proportion to something small. I'm not perfect, but I don't intend to hurt people, and certainly not that kind of pain, however I can't control what he perceives me as doing. I just have to learn to manage myself during these times and also the tools to not make them worse.

Unfortunately, they can't see the effect of dishing out so much rage on people who don't intend to hurt them and have not hurt them in that way. Understanding why goes a long way towards learning to deal with it.

[Tim300]

Label or not, finding out about BPD was like turning a light bulb on to the confusion and mystery I grew up with being the daughter of a BPD mom, and for that, the label was worth it to me.

I agree with this. 

I have no qualms about labeling and I think labeling can be very useful.  BPD is confusing enough to understand.  To try to ignore the elephant in the room (that a person is textbook pwBPD) and just focus on the behaviors, would seem to me to do an extraordinary disservice to a non in a relationship with a pwBPD, where the non is completely confused about that's going on.  Whether it's best to tell the pwBPD that she is a pwBPD, I don't know.  I would guess that it's generally good for the pwBPD to know the label.

Also, while I think most shrinks have good intentions, it's likely that most have not lived with a pwBPD, so might not fully understand and appreciate just how real and "textbook" a BPD experience can be.  Furthermore, shrinks might have some incentives to keep the label hidden (e.g., it could drive away business).

[formflier]

 

Can we substitute the word "lens" for the word "label"?


So... .just like we won't see things clearly if we don't have the right glasses on... .we need the right lens to look at a person's behavior.

Thoughts?

[ASD]

Hi,

I've been going to a psychiatrist for over a year now, to placate my SO.  She sees the same one. Last week I told him how bad things had been over the holidays and discussed the characteristics of BPD and asked his opinion.  He doesn't like labels but agreed she is exhibiting symptoms of it - has been for years.  Then this week it was her turn.  She talked to him and he asked her to fill in a quick 10 questions survey about BPD - she told me she recognizes and talked about 9/10 of the characteristics.  Finally I think she recognizes what she does and how she behaves is recognized by medicine and perhaps she can be treated.  We'll see.  I am surprised she even told me that much and seems to be embracing it.  She is going to change meds with him and even go to a support group next week ... .but it's for eating disorder sufferers (which she is also).  Perhaps things are on the up.  I have my guard up though, I've been in quiet/peaceful periods before. 

When I talked to the psychiatrist I had decided to leave, and felt good about the decision.  When I walked out I decided I needed to stay for 1 simple reason: the kids.  If I leave I know she'll use the kids against me and probably turn her rage on them.  So here we are.

Here's hoping things get and stay smoother.  Hang in thee.  Labels can help to an extent, but the real recognition has to come on a much more personal level.

[waverider]

The issue with labels is how they are applied and perceived. If the pwBPD perceives it as an accusation it pushes them into a defensive spiral.

If it is used as a tool to help them not feel like they are alone, and that there is a known reason for some of their issues it can help.

It can also, if not careful, be used to excuse away all responsibility for their actions.

For those around them it is important so that we can gain some insight into how they tick.

As far as understanding, we are not in their head so we are not completely fluent with how their mind works. We cannot perceive what they do, nor have we had their experiences. However if we can try our best to link their behaviors with known disorder traits and with an appreciation that their life experiences will be a result of this disorder, which in turn reinforce the disorder, it helps.

This needs to be done without personal judgement. That can be a big ask, and for many prove impossible.

They can't think or have experiences we have had. That is equally alien to them. They wont be able to see the world as we do, no matter how many times you attempt to explain.

Most of their lives they have been under pressure to mimic "normality". s it any wonder they don't know what they really stand for.

[Restored2]

Stalwart: Thank you for your response, personal insights, words of wisdom and encouragement.

I am so glad that both you and your wife were able to pull your relationship back from the depths of despair to be able to share in a stable and really good relationship together.  You are both blessed indeed!  This is AWESOME and soo encouraging to hear!  There needs to be more success stories like yours.  I have hope and faith for relationship reconciliation and restoration with mine, to be a success story like yours. 

Were you and your wife ever separated during this difficult time period? 

Your quote:

"If you can master walking in her shoes, her experiences and relate to the emotional upheaval it is so profound that it brings recognition and acceptance to her thinking and reactions to situations."

"... .master walking in her shoes... ." sums it up well.  We all do live out of our own realities.  Anything worth achieving is worth the work.

I understand where you are coming from.  However, the label allows us to be able to identify with the traits of BPD.  Otherwise, none of us would be on a site called bpdfamily, as the sites name is a label in and of itself.   

[braveSun]

Stalwart, thank you for sharing the success of you both's hard work and healed relationship. It's the kind of encouragement I am missing.

The issue with labels is how they are applied and perceived. If the pwBPD perceives it as an accusation it pushes them into a defensive spiral.

If it is used as a tool to help them not feel like they are alone, and that there is a known reason for some of their issues it can help.

It can also, if not careful, be used to excuse away all responsibility for their actions.

For those around them it is important so that we can gain some insight into how they tick.

Waverider, I like this perspective. It's like being engaged in full life. Like with everything we experience, we can use a concept for different purposes at different times. Best to use it wisely where it can be useful.

They can't think or have experiences we have had. That is equally alien to them. They wont be able to see the world as we do, no matter how many times you attempt to explain.

There I am not sure I can agree completely, but please do challenge me.

I beleive pwBPD can heal and get to experience some greater emotional range of feelings and complexity, including greater stress resilience over time.  Of course, providing that they accept their condition, enter treatment whole heartedly, and are actively committed to their own healing /recovery. I beleive that there are moments when nons and pwBPD in healing are capable of experiencing true intimacy with each other, and also, for the pwBPD, a less distorted thinking.

I think it could be that at times, even though they can mirror the non experience and say all the right words, they can also attune to the deeper sense of safety of the non, (if the non is actively working at that for him/herself), and can experience feelings and emotions of their own which are pretty much the same as a non. At least temporarily. It appears to me that they can speak 'non language', but we nons cannot really speak BPD language.

We can 'telegraph', we can 'attune', and negociate the return to calmness, or the maintenance of the calmness. Or we can hold as much of the consistency of object of love as we can. We can help by being simply ourselves, being present. And not assuming we know how they feel. I say that because it has been strange to feel that my SO (who has been in intensive treatment for a little while) can read quite accurately my own emotions and ask quite relevant questions. The ways she will use my answers will usually be different than mine, but she will actively practice 'calming things down' and 'being present in the moment'. Which will enable her to be less hard wired about her negative affect. It has surprised me recently.

Or maybe correct me waverider, or stalwart, maybe she might be able to accept the response I give her and just 'accept my experience as is for me', and not directly engage in the consequences of my response?...

In other words, if she is gradually healing from BPD, how does that manifest itself? Will she be able one day to just think like a non 85% of the time?...

Oh, and I know, absolutely, that I get some fleas...

Most of their lives they have been under pressure to mimic "normality". Is it any wonder they don't know what they really stand for.

That's a big question I am in wonder about. Surely not everybody who has BPD has no traces whatsoever of having a sense of self... A spark of some sort maybe, very small faint signals maybe, but something must be there for some of them. We're talking about developemental issues, not absense of some type of brain circuitry, right?

Anybody who is in a relationship with a healing pwBPD has been mingling with those thoughts?

[Restored2]

Tim300:

Your below quote sums up my position:

"To try to ignore the elephant in the room (that a person is textbook pwBPD) and just focus on the behaviors, would seem to me to do an extraordinary disservice to a non in a relationship with a pwBPD, where the non is completely confused about that's going on."

Your below quote is very insightful and believable:

"Also, while I think most shrinks have good intentions, it's likely that most have not lived with a pwBPD, so might not fully understand and appreciate just how real and "textbook" a BPD experience can be.  Furthermore, shrinks might have some incentives to keep the label hidden (e.g., it could drive away business)."

[waverider]

BPD is like a different language.

They can learn to speak a different (non) language overtime if they apply the effort (treatment) so that they can communicate more effectively with everyone else. However, the accent of BPD will linger a long time. It also takes a long time, if it ever happens to think in a second language. It is very difficult to eliminate all traces of original language or thought processes, especially wjhhen under stress.

We are all a product of accumulated experiences. They can add these as they start to acquire newer healthy ones, but that shortfall will always be there

[braveSun]

Thanks waverider, I see.   

In other words, they can work at the traits and behaviors, and diminish the degree of difficulty in their relationships with others over time. But the traits are like dormant in them, like a propensity to compulsive behaviors in people with addictions.  So in challenging times, they most likely will manifest them again.

But possibly the grip of the maladaptive behaviors lessens over the accumulation of more positive experiences.

[waverider]

Thanks waverider, I see.   

In other words, they can work at the traits and behaviors, and diminish the degree of difficulty in their relationships with others over time. But the traits are like dormant in them, like a propensity to compulsive behaviors in people with addictions.  So in challenging times, they most likely will manifest them again.

But possibly the grip of the maladaptive behaviors lessens over the accumulation of more positive experiences.

Correct, and they cant have their early developmental years back, that will always be missing so they are always in catch up mode without a bank of past positive reinforcement to fall back on. This may result in a fragile unworldliness scar. A bit like a physical injury, you may recover functionality but be left with a slight impairment, or need for maintenance care

The other aspect to bear in mind, even if full recovery is achieved they will be a different person than they ever where. A non partner having also lived through the process will also be changed. You may no longer be compatible.

This is why it is best to focus on improving your life now, and your journey through it, rather than the end result, as the end result is a huge unknown. Dont waste today by putting all your dreams in an unknown future.

Learning to create harmony within dysfunctional is more rewarding then making functionality a requirement for harmony. Hence goal number one is removal of any abuse and conflict minimization.