Staying until. . .How to figure out a realistic time frame?

[vortex of confusion]

I have been all over the map as to whether or not I want to stay or leave. I am posting this on the staying board because I don't want to hear that I need to get out now.

Some things that I am thinking about and wanting to have as goals/things to work towards:

1. Keep the peace. I want to continue to learn the tools that I need in order to communicate better and create a better atmosphere at home. And, I feel like working on these tools will help me no matter what because my husband and I are tied together for life because we have four kids. The better I can communicate with him, the easier it will be on the kids.

2. I want to be very realistic. The facts of the situation are that the verbally abusive stuff has pretty much stopped. I have 4 young kids. We don't have the money to separate. If nothing changes, we should be done paying off the debt management stuff in about 4 years. At that time, I think the kids will be old enough that child care won't be an issue. For those of you that have experience, does 4 years sound doable?

3. Determine whether or not it is possible to redefine the relationship so that we become co-parents living in the same house. (Not sure if that makes sense or if it is even possible. A thought that I have toyed with to keep from having to deal with the legal aspects of a divorce.)

4. Try to keep from sabatoging things. If I am perfectly honest with myself, I am afraid that my husband will never agree to any kind of split and will tell me whatever he thinks I want to hear and will do just enough to keep me on the hook without ever fully working on his recovery. There are times when I feel like the only way to get him to see that things are not working is for me to turn into a b**ch. I don't want that.

5. Get out of limbo. I am really tired of feeling like there is no direction. My husband's latest decision to post and answer ads has me back to wanting to get out now even though that is not practical.

6. Keep the focus on me and what I want and need rather than continually getting caught up in what he is or isn't doing and whether or not he is invested in the relationship. His actions show that he has little or no investment in it. After talking to his mom, it is pretty clear that a lot of his behaviors go back to his childhood. Realistically, I can't spend the rest of my life like this. At some point, I am going to get out. How do I keep myself sane in the mean time?

Thoughts, suggestions, feedback?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

4 years is a long time when you know you are dealing with BPD, much will change. It will be hard to stick to long term plans. In fact i am sure if you make such a definite plan, then that will be the one thing that doesn't happen.

The reason the next 4 years will be different than the last 4 is that you are changing, you will be different in 4 years than now.

As far as negotiating an amicable arrangement, that is unlikely to happen. It is most likely you will have to just enforce it. Consistency and simplicity are the key

[Notwendy]

I would not advise you about what to do in your situation, and whether to stay or leave is a personal decision. I think SA is a very tough issue to deal with. You can expect your H to follow through with recovery, but you really don't have much control of the situation.

I think we all have to face the idea that we chose our partners and that this choice is somewhat unconscious. I think we all have seen examples of people, including ourselves, who have left a dysfunctional relationship and then ended up in another dysfunctional one. If you don't want to leave your relationship now, I'm not sure it is possible to put a time frame on when you will. However, I think you can work on yourself and set personal goals- so that if or when you leave, or don't leave, your life and choices will be more in alignment with what you want. We can't change our partners, however, when we make a change in ourselves, the "match" between us goes out of balance. This can stimulate some growth in them, or discomfort. It is up to them to decide what to do about it. However, we can't work on ourselves with that goal, just for our goals.

[Crumbling]

I have been all over the map as to whether or not I want to stay or leave. I am posting this on the staying board because I don't want to hear that I need to get out now.

Some things that I am thinking about and wanting to have as goals/things to work towards:

1. Keep the peace. I want to continue to learn the tools that I need in order to communicate better and create a better atmosphere at home. And, I feel like working on these tools will help me no matter what because my husband and I are tied together for life because we have four kids. The better I can communicate with him, the easier it will be on the kids.

2. I want to be very realistic. The facts of the situation are that the verbally abusive stuff has pretty much stopped. I have 4 young kids. We don't have the money to separate. If nothing changes, we should be done paying off the debt management stuff in about 4 years. At that time, I think the kids will be old enough that child care won't be an issue. For those of you that have experience, does 4 years sound doable?

3. Determine whether or not it is possible to redefine the relationship so that we become co-parents living in the same house. (Not sure if that makes sense or if it is even possible. A thought that I have toyed with to keep from having to deal with the legal aspects of a divorce.)

4. Try to keep from sabatoging things. If I am perfectly honest with myself, I am afraid that my husband will never agree to any kind of split and will tell me whatever he thinks I want to hear and will do just enough to keep me on the hook without ever fully working on his recovery. There are times when I feel like the only way to get him to see that things are not working is for me to turn into a b**ch. I don't want that.

5. Get out of limbo. I am really tired of feeling like there is no direction. My husband's latest decision to post and answer ads has me back to wanting to get out now even though that is not practical.

6. Keep the focus on me and what I want and need rather than continually getting caught up in what he is or isn't doing and whether or not he is invested in the relationship. His actions show that he has little or no investment in it. After talking to his mom, it is pretty clear that a lot of his behaviors go back to his childhood. Realistically, I can't spend the rest of my life like this. At some point, I am going to get out. How do I keep myself sane in the mean time?

Thoughts, suggestions, feedback?

What is your list of concrete actions you can take to help you move towards these goals?  In your list I see:  from #1. Continue to work on communication tools.  Good one.  Easy to focus on, simple to practice and like you said, it is forever information and can be used in any situation you choose to apply them.

#2, 3 and 4 sort of read as the same thing to me.  You need to come to terms with where things are in the relationship and to have a clear plan of action for where your life is going.  From what I read, you're a lot like me... .there's a lot of, "but he's not doing 'x' so why should i do 'y'".  For me, I've been trying to practice keeping the focus on me and my actions, which you labelled as important in #6, right?  

Step one in getting there, IMO, is to practice not spending time thinking about his actions, or decisions.  I'm struggling, and go back and forth a lot on this, but each time I catch myself worrying or fretting over his actions, I'm trying to turn it back on me by asking myself the hard questions... .how does this really make me feel?  Is this a feeling I can accept, or something that is going to fester and boil?  Is this something I will be able to discuss with him, so that my feelings will be heard and validated?  Then the hardest one to answer, for me anyway - what am I prepared to do about this and is the effort going to be worth the results?  Getting results from a pwBPD is like trying to take candy from a kid, there's lots of struggle.  So, will the struggle be worth the end results?  "I" statements.  "I feel 'x' when he does 'y'" is a much healthier way to look at things... .the 'I' comes first.

I started off my whole job thing convinced I couldn't possibly take another pointless job, but in the process of really examining my feelings, needs and values, I realized that having a bigger goal, a more comprehensive long term plan, was more important than how I earn money right now... .as long as I can tie it back to working towards this bigger goal.  I also realized that really looking at my accomplishments and accepting my own strengths was key to gaining some confidence back, so that I can move forward.  Can we apply some of these principles to your situation?

What ideally, VoC, would be the best case scenario for you in four years, no, lets say five years?  You said in four you'd be ready for separation, so let's look at five years from now, after the initial transition.  The challenge for you is to answer this question without any "if he... ."  Let's try to get to what is best for VoC, then determine if that is a realistic goal, based on who hubby is and what you know about his behaviours?

I just haven't heard a clear, "I want freedom from this relationship to keep my sanity, even if he does make progress on his healing." (This is possible, perhaps there's too much water under the bridge for any real reconciliation.)  Nor have I heard a "I want to be in a place in our r/s where ... .but I am still able to thrive in my own life."  

Identifying clearly where you are headed may help guide you there.

  c.

[Crumbling]

I've been thinking about your h, too... .is it possible that the 'maybe' we stay together factor is feeding his need to get a 'flirt fix' let's say?  I know that my guy takes great comfort in knowing I am committed to us and will be here for him, no matter what.  So maybe the limbo you are in, is actually hurting him as much as it is hurting you?  Maybe?

[Cole]

Identifying clearly where you are headed may help guide you there.

I think Crumbling hit it right on the head for you in her closing sentence. When you are living with a pwBPD, it is hard not to get sucked into their drama. It is like they are in quicksand, and every time you try to pull them out they pull you in with them. It sounds like that is where you are now.

I wrote out all the consequences of staying in the relationship as-is and of divorce so I had it right in my head. Also wrote out what it will take for me to stay in the relationship and a date when I plan to file for divorce if things do not change. 

In my case, I shared it with her and it served as a wake-up call. You will have to decide for yourself if this step is right for you.

But at least take the step of examining what YOU need, where you want to go from here, and how you are going to get there.   

[vortex of confusion]

4 years is a long time when you know you are dealing with BPD, much will change. It will be hard to stick to long term plans. In fact i am sure if you make such a definite plan, then that will be the one thing that doesn't happen.

Thanks for the reminder! I know this to be true. All I know is that I can't realistically look at leaving until the kids are a bit older and the financial situation is a bit more secure. Last year at this time, I was in a completely different place than I am now.

As far as negotiating an amicable arrangement, that is unlikely to happen. It is most likely you will have to just enforce it. Consistency and simplicity are the key

I guess I still haven't come to a place of complete acceptance. I still keep holding out some kind of hope that there will be a peaceful/amicable way to navigate through all of this.

[vortex of confusion]

You can expect your H to follow through with recovery, but you really don't have much control of the situation.

Do you mean that I can't expect him to follow through with his recovery? Really, I feel like I need to come to a decision on my own without regards to what he is doing. I keep getting tripped up by looking at what he is doing. I can insist that he continue on his recovery path but that may or may not make much of a difference.

I think we all have to face the idea that we chose our partners and that this choice is somewhat unconscious. I think we all have seen examples of people, including ourselves, who have left a dysfunctional relationship and then ended up in another dysfunctional one.

Part of it is unconscious. In my case, I feel like I made a very conscious decision about my husband. I felt like he was a good person. We shared some similar interests. It seemed like he had very strong family values. We both wanted a big family. At that time, he wasn't abusive. He was very sweet and very gentle. He had a good sense of humor. He was intelligent. The problem is that I chose him without having all of the facts. I didn't know that he was a sex addict. I didn't know that having kids with him would eventually lead to a situation where he felt overwhelmed. When my oldest two girls were younger, he was a good dad. My oldest has said that she misses the fun daddy that she used to have when she was little. When I was pregnant with the girls, he was awesome. He babied me and pampered me and made sure that I had everything I needed. He was a great birth assistant too. He read the book "The Birth Partner" so he would know what to expect and how to help me. Heck, with my youngest three kids, we had home births and he was great at helping.

There have always been underlying issues but most of the time there were other things that came along and distracted us. He and I have talked about the pattern of things getting bad, me getting upset, things getting somewhat resolved, and getting better. It seems like whenever things go better, we got pregnant with another kid and that distracted us from the stuff that was festering underneath. Now that we can't have any more kids, all of the stuff that was festering under the surface is starting to come up.

I completely agree with the notion that it is common for people to go from one dysfunctional relationship to another. My dad brought this up. He has been with my mother for 47 years. When I was talking to him about my situation one time, he cautioned me and said something like, "Sometimes it is better to work with what you have as he is a known quantity. If you leave him and find somebody else, there is a good chance that some of this same stuff is going to come up all over again. The difference is that things could be a whole lot worse and you never really know which way it will go."

[Grey Kitty]

6. Keep the focus on me and what I want and need rather than continually getting caught up in what he is or isn't doing and whether or not he is invested in the relationship. His actions show that he has little or no investment in it. After talking to his mom, it is pretty clear that a lot of his behaviors go back to his childhood. Realistically, I can't spend the rest of my life like this. At some point, I am going to get out. How do I keep myself sane in the mean time?

BINGO.

You sound so worried and afraid about whether or not he is invested in the relationship that you are lost in that!

That fear is keeping you from seeing how invested he really is in the your r/s. To me, he sounds very enmeshed with you, and very busy avoiding his own feelings. So his way of being "invested" is real, and self-contradictory, and his words don't seem to match his actions. It is crazy making to try to understand it.

Trying to understand it and being afraid to believe what you are seeing at the same time is even worse!

The fear is also keeping you from really getting down to what your investment in the relationship is. And you seem to be a bundle of confused contradictions there.

I think the hard work of focusing on yourself, your values, your needs, your wants will give you better direction in your marriage.

Looking at his behavior too much, and trying too hard to make sense of it (Oooh! Is that a squirrel... .Oooh! Is that a response to my ad?... .) will distract you, and keep you in the fog longer.



You do sound very consistent and solid with your investment in your children. You may find more about how to live within your values looking at how they are treated, and what sort of example you want to set for them. They WILL notice your behavior, and either repeat it, or try to do the exact opposite! (Or both!)

[vortex of confusion]

What is your list of concrete actions you can take to help you move towards these goals?  In your list I see:  from #1. Continue to work on communication tools.  Good one.  Easy to focus on, simple to practice and like you said, it is forever information and can be used in any situation you choose to apply them.

Hmmmm. . .my concrete actions are to keep building up my tool box, keep working and building up my professional experiences and resume, focus on allowing myself to feel my feelings instead of burying them (feeling my feelings is part of what is complicating things for me because my feelings are all over the map

#2, 3 and 4 sort of read as the same thing to me.  You need to come to terms with where things are in the relationship and to have a clear plan of action for where your life is going.  From what I read, you're a lot like me... .there's a lot of, "but he's not doing 'x' so why should i do 'y'".  For me, I've been trying to practice keeping the focus on me and my actions, which you labelled as important in #6, right?  

I think I am really struggling with accepting and coming to terms with where things are in the relationship. I think I am looking to my husband for direction but that is futile because he is just as uncertain as I am. You are right. I am looking at "he isn't doing x, so I am not doing y." Or something like that. I feel like I was doing okay for a while but then he got back into finding female email friends and it completely confused me and set me back. I know the gold standard is to detach with love. What the heck does that even look like?

but each time I catch myself worrying or fretting over his actions, I'm trying to turn it back on me by asking myself the hard questions... .how does this really make me feel?  Is this a feeling I can accept, or something that is going to fester and boil?

I have been trying to ask myself the hard questions about the latest incident that is on my mind. If, as I say, I am done with him, then why the heck does him doing the stuff online bother me so much? Is it jealousy? Is it me wanting to protect him? Is it me being possessive? Why do I feel so hurt and betrayed by this?

His pattern is such that I don't really see him changing this sort of behavior or pattern in the future. This latest incident did shine light on the fact that I am still way too enmeshed. Hmmmm. . .

Is this something I will be able to discuss with him, so that my feelings will be heard and validated?  Then the hardest one to answer, for me anyway - what am I prepared to do about this and is the effort going to be worth the results?  Getting results from a pwBPD is like trying to take candy from a kid, there's lots of struggle.  So, will the struggle be worth the end results?  "I" statements.  "I feel 'x' when he does 'y'" is a much healthier way to look at things... .the 'I' comes first.

I have been talking to him quite a bit lately and the conversations have been good in that they have not led to conflict. Both of us have been able to speak and share our feelings. The problem for me is that I walk away from these talks feeling more confused than ever. I will think that I am clear on something and want to share or discuss but then we sit down to talk and I lose my nerve or lose clarity and then I walk away feeling crappy.

I just haven't heard a clear, "I want freedom from this relationship to keep my sanity, even if he does make progress on his healing." (This is possible, perhaps there's too much water under the bridge for any real reconciliation.)  Nor have I heard a "I want to be in a place in our r/s where ... .but I am still able to thrive in my own life."  

<taking a deep breath> Wow, when I read this, it really hit me. Yes, I want freedom from this relationship. If I am brutally honest with myself, I don't think I can ever go back to being his romantic partner. I can be his friend and coparent but I don't think I will ever be able to be vulnerable with him and that is one of the things that I really, really need. I need a place where I feel safe.

[vortex of confusion]

Looking at his behavior too much, and trying too hard to make sense of it (Oooh! Is that a squirrel... .Oooh! Is that a response to my ad?... .) will distract you, and keep you in the fog longer.

. . .but I love squirrels!

I thought I was doing pretty well there for a while. Then, he springs the ad thing on me. When we discussed it initially, I thought I was pretty clear about my concerns. I think where I went wrong was saying, "I am okay with it IF (such and such conditions are met)". I think all he heard was "I am okay with it."

You do sound very consistent and solid with your investment in your children. You may find more about how to live within your values looking at how they are treated, and what sort of example you want to set for them. They WILL notice your behavior, and either repeat it, or try to do the exact opposite! (Or both!)

Thanks for reminding me of this!

[Notwendy]

I think pw PD's are very good at presenting a good front, and yes, for some of us, we can be completely unaware until we are in it far. Part of this is that we are not painted black until the relationship is secure. I think I married a wonderful person, and in many ways, I think my H is wonderful. Once the kids came along and I dropped back to a part time lower paid job, I was painted black. Eventually there was a small breakthrough for him, when he realized that I was so depressed that I was not "present" to the relationship. However, the emotionally intimate side of the relationship is what is dysfunctional and still is to a certain extent.

However, there were earlier signs that a person with better boundaries would have picked up on. By unconscious, I mean the chemistry, feeling side of a relationship. Why do we have chemistry with people and they with us? This is the part of the dating process that results in people deciding to stay together. We've all met people with which there was no "chemistry" one way or the other.

Much of my "chemistry" with others was that side of me that felt familiar- that is- I didn't recognize it as not a healthy relationship. It makes sense considering how I grew up. It's even more of a miracle that we are so much more functional and healthy than my FOO was- in comparison. However, I didn't know what "normal" was. There were signs before things got difficult. My H used withdrawal as a form of disaproval, externalizing and blaming. He didn't outright rage until later. However, when he withdrew his affection, I would ramp up my caretaking and affection towards him, and things would get better. I didn't recognize this as a problem since that was how I was raised. Although it often felt like a one way street- as he rarely returned that level of attention and sometimes flat out ignored me- that felt normal to me since that was my role in my FOO. Somebody raised in an emotionally healthier way would not feel this as "chemistry". They would leave.

Where things got worse was when the kids came along and I no longer had the time and energy to keep up the level of attention and caretaking that I had focused on him. An emotionally healthy new father would also recognize that some attention would be focused on the kids, however, to my H, I suppose that triggered his feelings of abandomment and rejection and shifted the "painting me black" phase. I didn't even recognize that as abnormal, accepted his blaming me for everything, and tried to make him happy without much success until I just gave up.


In many ways, I am glad I did not leave. Much good has come out of this. I adore my kids and my H is good to them. However, I am aware that I had poor radar for what isn't healthy in a relationship emotionally and that what looks familiar to me in a person might not be good for me. I have better boundaries now, and this has led to some improvements in my relationship as I handle some things better.

I also know that it is my caretaking behavior that reinforced the behavors I didn't like, and that the path to a healthier relationship with my H has to start with me. People who "externalize" and blame others for their behavior instead of self reflection, are less motivated to make changes.

Although we all have partners with behaviors that are difficult, we are all different too, with different situations. I still think the path to making change starts with us and self reflection. Vortex, you are a very strong person.

[vortex of confusion]

I think pw PD's are very good at presenting a good front, and yes, for some of us, we can be completely unaware until we are in it far. Part of this is that we are not painted black until the relationship is secure. I think I married a wonderful person, and in many ways, I think my H is wonderful. Once the kids came along and I dropped back to a part time lower paid job, I was painted black. Eventually there was a small breakthrough for him, when he realized that I was so depressed that I was not "present" to the relationship. However, the emotionally intimate side of the relationship is what is dysfunctional and still is to a certain extent.

My husband can be critical and snappy and grumpy. I don't think he has ever really painted me black. There have been a few instances where he lied to some of the women that he was talking to in the past. The overall pattern is that I am painted permanently white. I am his rock. I am amazing. I am awesome. I am generous. Blah, blah, blah! At this point, I think I would be way more comfortable with him telling me that I am a horrible b**ch.

I don't think my husband is wonderful. He used to be wonderful back in the day but not any more. The days of him being wonderful and me seeing past how inadequate he is are pretty much over.

Now, he annoys me. I have little or no respect for him as a father or a husband. I don't trust him on any level. If I was laying in the street dying, I feel like he would tell me, "Just a minute, I need to finish this quest (in his game)".

[Grey Kitty]

I just haven't heard a clear, "I want freedom from this relationship to keep my sanity, even if he does make progress on his healing." (This is possible, perhaps there's too much water under the bridge for any real reconciliation.)  Nor have I heard a "I want to be in a place in our r/s where ... .but I am still able to thrive in my own life."  

<taking a deep breath> Wow, when I read this, it really hit me. Yes, I want freedom from this relationship. If I am brutally honest with myself, I don't think I can ever go back to being his romantic partner. I can be his friend and coparent but I don't think I will ever be able to be vulnerable with him and that is one of the things that I really, really need. I need a place where I feel safe.

Given your situation, this is an option to seriously consider.

I can think of a couple guys who are longstanding members of the Staying board who took this sort of option.

They feel they can provide better for their children by staying in an emotionally empty marriage (or one where they are an emotional caretaker for their spouse), and providing a healthier example to their children  and a better life than they would with an acrimonious divorce and a long and difficult battle to get time with their kids.

They have accepted that they won't get the sort of emotionally satisfying relationship they want out of a partner from their wives. They find emotional intimacy in other places in their lives, and find other things that matter to them besides a mostly empty marriage.

And they are happy with the CHOICE they made to live this way for their kids.

Sure they wish that their wife was somebody different. But as they have found the tools to eliminate verbal/emotional abuse from the house, they accept it as the best option for them today.

The key is that it is a CHOICE. If you actively choose this over the financial hardship of divorce, you can be happy with your choice. If you feel trapped, you will be miserable about it.

[MissyM]

There are times when I feel like the only way to get him to see that things are not working is for me to turn into a b**ch. I don't want that.

I see that you say something like this quite often.  So, does standing up for yourself in some way make you feel like a B word?  Setting out clearly what you will and will not tolerate in a relationship is not being a B.  I can't decide how my dBPDh's recovery is done but I am clear that not in active recovery means no relationship.  Since your husband is acting out, that is clearly not in recovery.  So what is your course of action to take care of yourself and leave him to himself?  Is there a way to do this without separation?  Seeing that my husband was acting out and justifying it was toxic, I had to get clear that was about him and his illness and not subject myself to that kind of behavior.  How is it possible to live with that for 4 years and stay healthy yourself?

[vortex of confusion]

The key is that it is a CHOICE. If you actively choose this over the financial hardship of divorce, you can be happy with your choice. If you feel trapped, you will be miserable about it.

True. I am not yet in a place where I can clearly make this choice. I am trying to get there though. I am still in a place where I have periods of feeling very trapped. Those feelings aren't happening as often but they are still very much there.

[vortex of confusion]

I see that you say something like this quite often.  So, does standing up for yourself in some way make you feel like a B word?  Setting out clearly what you will and will not tolerate in a relationship is not being a B.

Yes, standing up for myself makes me feel like the B word. I need to think more about why I feel that way.

I can't decide how my dBPDh's recovery is done but I am clear that not in active recovery means no relationship.  Since your husband is acting out, that is clearly not in recovery.

I don't know why I chuckled at this. I guess it is because I am being told that he is still in active recovery and is NOT acting out. He does not consider what he is doing as acting out. I have asked him a lot of questions about how it isn't acting out or putting himself in a position to act out. He doesn't see it.

So what is your course of action to take care of yourself and leave him to himself? 

I am going to have to think on this. I was doing pretty well by focusing on work and kids and reading and participating here. I got a little comfortable and we started having some really good conversations and I let myself get sucked back in. I didn't have a clear enough idea of how I was going to keep myself as the focus.

Is there a way to do this without separation?  Seeing that my husband was acting out and justifying it was toxic, I had to get clear that was about him and his illness and not subject myself to that kind of behavior.  How is it possible to live with that for 4 years and stay healthy yourself?

I think part of the problem is trying to figure out how to detach when we are living in and sharing the same space. I don't think it is possible to live with this for 4 years unless I can figure out how to detach and stay detached.

I was having a conversation with somebody and I was challenged because it sounds like I am trying to detach without caring instead of detaching with love. I am trying to figure out how I can share a space with somebody that I think is making stupid decisions without trying to interfere or rescue. How can I care without being deeply impacted by some of the things that he does?

[MissyM]

 

I was having a conversation with somebody and I was challenged because it sounds like I am trying to detach without caring instead of detaching with love. I am trying to figure out how I can share a space with somebody that I think is making stupid decisions without trying to interfere or rescue. How can I care without being deeply impacted by some of the things that he does?

Detaching with love was really hard for me to get to.  First I had to detach in anger because that is the only way I knew how.  The shift was when I could depersonalize behavior, have compassion but still keep my boundaries.  Those were very hard things for me to combine.  I found Alanon to be very helpful with the detachment part and therapy to be very helpful with boundaries.

[Crumbling]

  , I see you've been busy making progress here VoC!  Good to see.

Hmmmm. . .my concrete actions are to

1. keep building up my tool box,

2. keep working and building up my professional experiences and resume,

3. focus on allowing myself to feel my feelings instead of burying them (feeling my feelings is part of what is complicating things for me because my feelings are all over the map

 

I hope you don't mind my editing , but this makes your goals clearer, easier to focus on.  What action steps will you be taking to move these goals forward during the week ahead?

I think I am really struggling with accepting and coming to terms with where things are in the relationship. I think I am looking to my husband for direction but that is futile because he is just as uncertain as I am. You are right. I am looking at "he isn't doing x, so I am not doing y." Or something like that. I feel like I was doing okay for a while but then he got back into finding female email friends and it completely confused me and set me back.

So, I hear you saying you need to focus on discovering what you can do next time, to be more prepared should a similar situation like this comes up again, right?  Hindsight is golden.  So apply that... .IMO. 

I know the gold standard is to detach with love. What the heck does that even look like?


but each time I catch myself worrying or fretting over his actions... .

I just know I'm like Missy, I needed to get really mad... .and stay there for a while, and be okay with hating him sometimes... .until I began to be able to do things for me, in spite of him next to me.  It's not an on/off event.  It's just a choice in the moment.  You'll know how to do it when you get to the right time to do it, is what I'm learning.  Like being a mom.      You know, worry is as helpful as carrying an umbrella on a sunny day.     especially when you waste it on him... .oop, did I say that 

I have been trying to ask myself the hard questions about the latest incident that is on my mind. If, as I say, I am done with him, then why the heck does him doing the stuff online bother me so much? Is it jealousy? Is it me wanting to protect him? Is it me being possessive? Why do I feel so hurt and betrayed by this?

His pattern is such that I don't really see him changing this sort of behavior or pattern in the future. This latest incident did shine light on the fact that I am still way too enmeshed. Hmmmm.

      These are great questions to focus on, even journal about.  'way too enmeshed' ---this sounds like a whole new thread to me. ?

I have been talking to him quite a bit lately and the conversations have been good in that they have not led to conflict. Both of us have been able to speak and share our feelings. The problem for me is that I walk away from these talks feeling more confused than ever. I will think that I am clear on something and want to share or discuss but then we sit down to talk and I lose my nerve or lose clarity and then I walk away feeling crappy.

So this sounds like you've also established where you faltered in the discussion... .somewhat.  Maybe another place where you use hindsight and closely look at what happened, and evaluate how you are going to overcome it the next time? 

<taking a deep breath> Wow, when I read this, it really hit me. Yes, I want freedom from this relationship. If I am brutally honest with myself, I don't think I can ever go back to being his romantic partner. I can be his friend and coparent but I don't think I will ever be able to be vulnerable with him and that is one of the things that I really, really need. I need a place where I feel safe.

  :'(     poor, VoC.  You sound so tired and scared.     

Be good to you, luv.

Blessings,

c.

[Cat Familiar]

I think part of the problem is trying to figure out how to detach when we are living in and sharing the same space. I don't think it is possible to live with this for 4 years unless I can figure out how to detach and stay detached.

I was having a conversation with somebody and I was challenged because it sounds like I am trying to detach without caring instead of detaching with love. I am trying to figure out how I can share a space with somebody that I think is making stupid decisions without trying to interfere or rescue. How can I care without being deeply impacted by some of the things that he does?

That is a difficult issue about sharing a space with your future ex-husband. Do you think if you formally detach that he will start acting out more of his sex addiction behaviors?

And what does it even mean to formally detach? Conscious uncoupling, ala Gwynneth Paltrow?

I tried to share the property with my ex husband after I told him I was out of the relationship. I hadn't gotten to the point of filing for a divorce. He met a single mom with two kids and they would spend most of the time at her place, but then come here to be away from the kids on the weekends. She absolutely hated me, although I was really happy that he had found someone and was under the delusion that we could all be friends. It got really complicated and uncomfortable.

I guess I'm wondering what it would look like to you to detach from him. It sounds like you're done being physically intimate with him and that you have separate spaces in the house. (Wow--it sounds like my situation as I write this.)

It seems like you'd have to draw up guidelines for responsibilities and monetary contributions to the household and child care. Do you have any ideas how you might do this?

From what you've written, it seems like he's in his own private world of computer gaming and now email female friends. So what do you think he might do if you pull the plug on the relationship and create some sort of rooming house together?

[vortex of confusion]

So this sounds like you've also established where you faltered in the discussion... .somewhat.  Maybe another place where you use hindsight and closely look at what happened, and evaluate how you are going to overcome it the next time? 

Thanks for the input Crumbling! It is really helpful. I like the way you edited my list. I continue to do all of those things by reading the boards, reading other articles, going to work, and trying to sort out what it is that I really feel.

I am pretty sure that I falter most of the time because I can't bring myself to say "We are done. I don't want you any more. I don't feel like I will ever trust you and all of the love and compassion that I have for you is pretty platonic."

I am not sure how to overcome it next time. I think we are both getting closer and closer to a point where we are getting to a similar place. He said something interesting today. He said, "I don't know what I want. I don't know if I want you or if I am afraid of being alone."

  :'(    poor, VoC.  You sound so tired and scared.     

Be good to you, luv.

Thanks for the hugs! I am in a low period right now and they are very much appreciated.

[vortex of confusion]

That is a difficult issue about sharing a space with your future ex-husband. Do you think if you formally detach that he will start acting out more of his sex addiction behaviors?

I can almost guarantee that he will act out more. He has around 80 days of sobriety and doesn't see a problem with setting up a profile on OK Cupid. He simply does not see it at all. We had a discussion this evening and it seemed to me like he was saying that if we decide that we are done then he doesn't see a problem with him have email friends and online profiles and such. I feel like I am really misunderstanding something. Even if he was single, it wouldn't really be a good idea to be posting ads and talking to a bunch of females online. To me, it feels like every time that I have set a boundary or done something to try to repair things or move things in a healthier direction he has reacted completely opposite of what a normal person would do.

Tonight, I said that if there was going to be any hope at all, he would have to have at least 6 months of clear sobriety before I could even consider having some of these discussions. He quickly did the math and said, "That would mean 9 months in total and even then there is no guarantee that you would want to try again." Then it went into weird directions where he said his sponsor and his wife have been apart for close to two years and she still isn't ready to take him back. What I hear is that his sponsor is still invested in his wife and is going to give it all he has. I don't know what my husband is hearing or seeing but he quickly switched to an example of another guy that did all of the work and his wife still divorced him. And then he started in on how every situation is different. I was trying to make the point that his sponsor is still working on things even though his wife won't let him come home. My husband hasn't even been away from the house for more than a couple of days in years. Right now, our physical contact is limited to friendly hugs and kisses. If he wants those hugs and kissed to continue, then I need him to take his recovery seriously and not have ads and not this the whole online female friends thing because I see that as putting his sobriety in jeopardy. (I don't say that it violates his sobriety outright because I don't want to get into another discussion of what constitutes sobriety. He likes to justify different things by saying that it isn't violating his sobriety because it isn't compulsive, blah, blah, blah.)

And what does it even mean to formally detach? Conscious uncoupling, ala Gwynneth Paltrow?

Good question! Whomever figures out that answer first can share with the other. 

I tried to share the property with my ex husband after I told him I was out of the relationship. I hadn't gotten to the point of filing for a divorce. He met a single mom with two kids and they would spend most of the time at her place, but then come here to be away from the kids on the weekends.

We have discussed the option of being house mates and still keeping up the legal aspects of the marriage to avoid the expense of divorce and coparent within the same house. One of the non-negotiables for me is that neither one of us can bring anybody home. Any and all outside activities must be done elsewhere and should be done discreetly.

I guess I'm wondering what it would look like to you to detach from him. It sounds like you're done being physically intimate with him and that you have separate spaces in the house. (Wow--it sounds like my situation as I write this.)

He sleeps in the big bed in what used to be our room and I sleep on the couch. A lot of my clothes are still in "our" room but I don't really have a space in it. My space is my little corner of the couch. He still wants kisses goodbye and he still wants hugs. I will do that but that is about it.

It seems like you'd have to draw up guidelines for responsibilities and monetary contributions to the household and child care. Do you have any ideas how you might do this?

I have ideas on this. The only time he is responsible for the kids is when I go to work. The kids are pretty much my responsibility. As far as monetary contributions, I already know which bills are squarely his. We have a joint account and I have my own account. I am the one that manages all of the finances. I have suggested that he get another account for himself but he has no interest in that because he sucks at juggling bills and finances. I get the impression that he will let me do whatever the heck I want as long as I don't ask him to leave.

From what you've written, it seems like he's in his own private world of computer gaming and now email female friends. So what do you think he might do if you pull the plug on the relationship and create some sort of rooming house together?

I did pull the plug for a while. I set him up in his own room. I joked that he had his own little man cave. He didn't do anything about it. He would go to bed early and watch movies. It didn't seem to phase him one bit. I feel like the ball is in my court and I am the one that gets to decide whether or not I want to be in this. I feel like he is along for the ride.

[waverider]

You can detach with love, but that does not mean it will be received that way. To most people, let alone a pwBPD, the action and the emotion seem contradictory.

Abandonment is abandonment, and most people find that hard to deal with unless that was their wish also. The backlash reaction will easily test you ability to keep it "with love".

pwBPD have two camps "allies" & "foes" for people who are in their sphere. Allies meet their needs, foes do not. It can be as cut and dry as that

[MissyM]

(I don't say that it violates his sobriety outright because I don't want to get into another discussion of what constitutes sobriety. He likes to justify different things by saying that it isn't violating his sobriety because it isn't compulsive, blah, blah, blah.)

Well, I can help you with the lingo.  It would be are you violating middle circle or inner circle behavior?  This is definitely not outer circle behavior (which is healthy behavior).  Middle circle is on the way to a slip and inner circle is a slip (multiple slips are relapse).

The backlash reaction will easily test you ability to keep it "with love".

Oh, so true!  I would sometimes fail on that with severe backlash, that is where the boundaries come in.

[vortex of confusion]

Well, I can help you with the lingo.  It would be are you violating middle circle or inner circle behavior?  This is definitely not outer circle behavior (which is healthy behavior).  Middle circle is on the way to a slip and inner circle is a slip (multiple slips are relapse).

He openly admits that it is probably a middle circle behavior. I have read up on the inner, outer, and middle circles. Heck, he has even discussed what is in each of his circles with me. There isn't much consistency. He can't even figure out which circle having sex with his wife would be because things between us had gotten to a point where he was using me as his blow up doll.

[MissyM]

Ah, so he admits he is violating middle circle behaviors?  A therapist wouldn't put being on a dating website and contacting women as a middle circle, since he only had 80 days of sobriety I guess it isn't surprising that he can't figure out that this is really inner circle behavior. 

Ugh, so wish you could find a way to get some distance from him.  It stinks to be around this kind of behavior and justifications.   

[vortex of confusion]

Ah, so he admits he is violating middle circle behaviors?  A therapist wouldn't put being on a dating website and contacting women as a middle circle, since he only had 80 days of sobriety I guess it isn't surprising that he can't figure out that this is really inner circle behavior. 

No, he says, "It is probably a middle circle behavior." It took him a bit to even admit that much. He hasn't been to his therapist since sometime in early December. He is supposed to be reading a book to discuss with her. I have seen him read everything but. I know why he is waiting to see the therapist and that is because of finances.

I don't understand why his sponsor didn't tell him not to do it. But, I am relying on what he says and he says that his sponsor asked him lots and lots of questions and told him to pray about it and meditate on it. But, he didn't ask his sponsor before he did it. He didn't think to ask his sponsor until AFTER I suggested it.

Instead of asking his sponsor before doing it, he asked me. I hate being put in that position. I was mad that he even thought about doing it and was serious about it. On what planet does that make any sense?

[MissyM]

Instead of asking his sponsor before doing it, he asked me. I hate being put in that position. I was mad that he even thought about doing it and was serious about it. On what planet does that make any sense?

BPDSAville.

He is not well mentally, the cognitive distortions associated with SA and BPD are not ever going to make sense.  It is exhausting to be his caretaker.  It is not up to you to be his sponsor but you do have a right to say you aren't ok with his behavior.  Have you clearly stated your feelings on the matter?  Not that he will consider them, just wondering if you were afraid of saying what you really wanted and felt.

[vortex of confusion]

He is not well mentally, the cognitive distortions associated with SA and BPD are not ever going to make sense.  It is exhausting to be his caretaker.  It is not up to you to be his sponsor but you do have a right to say you aren't ok with his behavior.  Have you clearly stated your feelings on the matter?  Not that he will consider them, just wondering if you were afraid of saying what you really wanted and felt.

I didn't come right out and say NO! But, I thought the questions and concerns that I brought up made it perfectly clear that I wasn't okay with it. If I had clearly said no, he probably would have done it anyway. He keeps trying to make it an issue of us being in an open relationship and I am trying to take it back to the fact that I really need to be able to trust him before I will be okay with him doing certain things. I thought I was pretty clear about the fact that we needed to rebuild some trust between us.

Yes, I was afraid of saying what I really wanted. I knew it probably wouldn't matter. Heck, I tried to be perfectly clear that I wanted him to have 6 months of active sobriety (no posting ads and no profiles on dating sites) before I will even have certain discussions. He acted like that was such a loong time and was fishing for some kind of reassurance or guarantee that I will jump back in his arms and everything will be okay if he does everything that he is supposed to do. The thing is that he can't seem to consistently do anything.

I so badly want to yell at him and tell him, ":)ude, I have given you how many years to step it up. Whenever I say anything about wanting to be done or being frustrated with waiting, you tell me that I am not being patient and that I haven't given it enough time. Now, here you are acting like me wanting 6 months of active sobriety with no slip ups is asking for the impossible and that I am some kind of horribly demanding bleep."

[Grey Kitty]

 VOC,

There is room for enforcing some boundaries, and it might even involve something like "STFU, I'm not going to listen to that crap from you."

You are letting him process his SA crap with you. That isn't working. It is pissing you off royally. It is letting him move the issue from HIS PROBLEM to you being pissed. This "works" for him.

The only way to win that game is not to play. He won't make that choice.

The only way to stop that game is to set a boundary and enforce it. On your side.

BTW, that boundary could be expressed without "STFU" Try this:

"I am your wife, not your therapist."

If you aren't even feeling like his wife, and don't want to go back to it or even think about it, try:

"I am not your therapist, I'm not trained for that, and if I was, I'd know that I'm too close to you to be able to do this for you!"

I so badly want to yell at him and tell him, ":)ude, I have given you how many years to step it up. Whenever I say anything about wanting to be done or being frustrated with waiting, you tell me that I am not being patient and that I haven't given it enough time. Now, here you are acting like me wanting 6 months of active sobriety with no slip ups is asking for the impossible and that I am some kind of horribly demanding bleep."

 Yup, you want to do that. And yup, you know nothing good will come of it.

Posting that here works a lot better!

[MissyM]

 

I didn't come right out and say NO! But, I thought the questions and concerns that I brought up made it perfectly clear that I wasn't okay with it. If I had clearly said no, he probably would have done it anyway. He keeps trying to make it an issue of us being in an open relationship and I am trying to take it back to the fact that I really need to be able to trust him before I will be okay with him doing certain things. I thought I was pretty clear about the fact that we needed to rebuild some trust between us.

Yes, I was afraid of saying what I really wanted. I knew it probably wouldn't matter. Heck, I tried to be perfectly clear that I wanted him to have 6 months of active sobriety (no posting ads and no profiles on dating sites) before I will even have certain discussions. He acted like that was such a loong time and was fishing for some kind of reassurance or guarantee that I will jump back in his arms and everything will be okay if he does everything that he is supposed to do. The thing is that he can't seem to consistently do anything.

Hmm, I know that sometimes being unclear can be a defense mechanism.  Would this be true for you?  Not stating what I want and need clearly because it is too painful if the answer is no.  Getting to where I could state what I wanted and needed clearly, then letting go of the outcome has been a huge focus for me in recovery.  Somehow that was terrifying for me, really stating what I wanted and having to face the possibility of rejection.

Maybe really examine the open relationship issue, perhaps have a meeting with your husband and his CSAT (which usually happens every few months, they bring the spouse in).  An open relationship may be something you are capable of but for an SA, that is like expecting them to be a social drinker.  This was a discussion that was had at the treatment center with my dBPDh and I.  Someone there was wanting to stay in an open relationship, that was SA, and they were very clear with him that it would never be possible for an SA to do that.  It is the slippery slope for them. 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[vortex of confusion]

Hmm, I know that sometimes being unclear can be a defense mechanism.  Would this be true for you?  Not stating what I want and need clearly because it is too painful if the answer is no.  Getting to where I could state what I wanted and needed clearly, then letting go of the outcome has been a huge focus for me in recovery.  Somehow that was terrifying for me, really stating what I wanted and having to face the possibility of rejection.

I think so. I think I am being clear but apparently not. Really, even when I am perfectly clear, like with the 6 month thing, it isn't taken seriously and is treated as though I am being too demanding. In the past, I have been perfectly clear and it seems like he finds a way to get me to relent. Not sure if it is the talking in circles or if it is something else.

Maybe really examine the open relationship issue, perhaps have a meeting with your husband and his CSAT (which usually happens every few months, they bring the spouse in).  An open relationship may be something you are capable of but for an SA, that is like expecting them to be a social drinker.  This was a discussion that was had at the treatment center with my dBPDh and I.  Someone there was wanting to stay in an open relationship, that was SA, and they were very clear with him that it would never be possible for an SA to do that.  It is the slippery slope for them. 

He doesn't have a therapist that is certified in sex addiction and there has NEVER been any discussion of me meeting with anybody. I don't think he has been to his therapist enough times to establish much of anything let alone get me involved. [/quote]

[MissyM]

In the past, I have been perfectly clear and it seems like he finds a way to get me to relent.

Yeah, I get that.  That is why I had to do so much work on boundaries.  It isn't that I didn't know what I wanted but that I would back down or just get worn out and give up.  Nothing changed until I changed that.  It was met with a lot of anger and push back, and then the switch to strategy of the long try at wear down.  It is up to me to have boundaries for myself.

He doesn't have a therapist that is certified in sex addiction and there has NEVER been any discussion of me meeting with anybody. I don't think he has been to his therapist enough times to establish much of anything let alone get me involved.

Oh, my misunderstanding.  Sorry about that.  I thought he saw a CSAT this last time.

[Notwendy]

I was wondering that too, about the open relationship. I'm not being critical of it, if that is something you both have chosen to do, but I was thinkking about this in terms of addiction.

I see where Vortex can handle this, much like I can drink a glass of wine and not get addicted, however, drinking a glass of wine in front of an alcoholic might be too tempting for the alcoholic. Also, I was currious about SA and after reading about it see where it is particularly hard to manage, since one can abstain from something like alcohol entirely without denying something we instinctually crave, but our sexuality is hard wired into us.

So while I agree that we do not necessarily have to have the same restrictions as the addict and the difference between a relationship and SA is as different as someone driking a glass of wine and the other one drinking the whole bottle--does the open relationship aspect make it harder than if there was an agreement that is less negotiable- nobody outside the marriage?

[vortex of confusion]

I was wondering that too, about the open relationship. I'm not being critical of it, if that is something you both have chosen to do, but I was thinkking about this in terms of addiction.

I think the enmeshment complicates things as much as the addiction does. I had that revelation this morning. I was chatting briefly with a friend online. He said he wanted to go sit on the porch with me before work. I wrapped up the conversation and went and sat with him on the porch. The first question he asked was "Were you talking to your friend or so and so's mom?" I said "My friend." He quickly covered and said, "I was just curious. If you were talking to so and so's mom, I was going to ask you how she was doing. Just trying to make small talk and find something to talk about."

I don't want to lie or say "None of your business" but at the same time it seems kind of creepy that he not only saw me chatting with somebody but made it a point to ask who it was. I may see him doing stuff on his computer but I don't usually ask about the specifics.

I see where Vortex can handle this, much like I can drink a glass of wine and not get addicted, however, drinking a glass of wine in front of an alcoholic might be too tempting for the alcoholic. Also, I was currious about SA and after reading about it see where it is particularly hard to manage, since one can abstain from something like alcohol entirely without denying something we instinctually crave, but our sexuality is hard wired into us.

That is why it is so important for them to work with a sponsor and define what is considered acting out and what isn't. MissyM was referring to inner circle, outer circle, and middle circle behaviors. That is something that the addict is supposed to identify. It is a process and takes time. It is kind of the same thing with a food addict. It is a little more difficult to figure out the parameters of what is considered "sober" and what isn't.

So while I agree that we do not necessarily have to have the same restrictions as the addict and the difference between a relationship and SA is as different as someone driking a glass of wine and the other one drinking the whole bottle--does the open relationship aspect make it harder than if there was an agreement that is less negotiable- nobody outside the marriage?

I think it does make it more difficult because I have no way of knowing whether or not he is looking for other women to have a real relationship with or if he is looking for a fix. For me, if he is looking for other people to have a real relationship with, then I am posed with the question of, "Why can you work to have a relationship with that person but not me?" And, the enmeshment is a problem because he doesn't seem to be able to keep some information to himself. Instead of going to his sponsor or his therapist with some things, he comes to me. I need to figure out how to put a stop to that so the next time he asks me for input on certain topics I can tell him, "I will not have this discussion with you. You need to discuss it with your therapist or sponsor." Really, I think I need to do that with most of the topics that have come up between us lately as most of it seems to be focused on the openness of things. I really don't want to discuss it because I see it as a bit of a distraction from the real issues. For me, the number one issue is lack of trust and lack of consistency. And the other issue that I thought I had a grip on but it is becoming pretty clear that we are still too enmeshed. I think I slipped backwards because I was off work for a month and didn't really have much contact with people in real life.

[Notwendy]

I know this is not really a consolation to you, but until he's had a lot of recovery, I don't think any relationship he has online or with his seeking behavior can be a real relationship. His best chance of a relationship is with you, the woman in front of him, not the one on the internet.

All addictions are an escape from one's own bad feelings, and all of them are exploitative- using the addictive substance to feel better, whether it is sex, drugs, alcohol, gambling. As long as an addict is using, he/she is not recovering. So, IMHO, if he's doing any of this, he isn't having what you consider to be a relationship.

[vortex of confusion]

Oh, my misunderstanding.  Sorry about that.  I thought he saw a CSAT this last time.

I brought up the idea of his seeing a CSAT but he doesn't think he needs one. He says that he wants to focus on other stuff with his therapist and focus on the SA stuff in group.

For some reason, I find it kind of funny (in a sad way) that he says that his SA is the cause of everything and that if he takes care of that everything will be okay. He is all over the map with this stuff. I think that is why I stay confused a lot of the time. He will say one thing one day and then say something else the next day. I've read a lot of SA literature over the years and I am pretty sure that there is more going on that JUST SA. I know there is some depression and anxiety and OCD. Even that doesn't account for what seems like his basic inability to make certain connections.

[vortex of confusion]

I know this is not really a consolation to you, but until he's had a lot of recovery, I don't think any relationship he has online or with his seeking behavior can be a real relationship. His best chance of a relationship is with you, the woman in front of him, not the one on the internet.

All addictions are an escape from one's own bad feelings, and all of them are exploitative- using the addictive substance to feel better, whether it is sex, drugs, alcohol, gambling. As long as an addict is using, he/she is not recovering. So, IMHO, if he's doing any of this, he isn't having what you consider to be a relationship.

I know that his best chance at a real relationship is with me. I am no longer willing to even consider us in a relationship unless or until he can show me that he is serious. As of yet, he hasn't done that. He still plays he computer games way more than I think is healthy for a grown adult. I don't mind if we aren't doing anything and the kids are all taken care of but he has this tendency where if you ask him for something he will say, "Just a minute. Let me finish what I am doing here." Yesterday, I went out with my oldest for a bit. I asked him to put some clothes in the dryer for me. He said, "I'll do it in a minute." I got home an hour or so later and asked him if he did it and he hadn't. He got so wrapped up in his game that he forgot. The forgetting part isn't a big deal. If I had a nickel for every time I forgot to do something because I got sidetracked by a kid or something else, I would be rich. The problem is that he gets sidetracked by his game and it is a pervasive pattern. It is one thing to overlook an occasional foible.

And I can't bring this stuff up with him because it seems to go back to him, "I know. I am a failure. Blah, blah, blah." UGH! I thought I had kind of nipped it the bud but his reaction to me trying to say that him posting/answering ads is not a way to rebuild trust led right back to "I know. I screwed up."

[Notwendy]

I hear you Vortex. I know that "level" thing in a game because my kids play them. However, they know that if they don't keep their grades up, do what they need to do, then the games are gone. You can't do that with a grown adult, and I understand that it has to be frustrating to see that your H doesn't stop when he needs to.

[braveSun]

I feel for you Vortex.   

I read your thread, and it reminds me how horrible I have felt not so long ago, having to swim with all that b--- s---. I have had a big stack of good o' brain salad schwished at me like you are describing for a long long time. I have no idea if this and when (if) that will come again. I wish it not. Not for you either.

It's not recovery.   

I don't know about the particulars of your situation. For me it has taken that I get consistent outside support rooting for me (my own support group, my own T, my own buddies, my own coaches, etc... ). Once all of this was in motion, I could feel the focus of my life and well being change.

I don't want to mean this is a recipe. There isn't any. For me I felt better that way. I have been having a set of boundaries for a long time, and it has taken a long time for most of them to be recognized and accepted. Most are now being met, but still not all of them quite. I feel much safer today. I have required monogamy and fidelity as a non-negociable. I have been physically separated for over a year now, with 2 periods of several weeks of NC. We'll see.

One thing I have seen is that with my SO, she has seen a CSAT for over a year, and she has attended treatment centers a few times over that year. She did not take to any support groups though. She did shift in her mindfulness about her addiction, yes. It has worked for some good patches, and I can say she is in recovery. That's a condition for me to consider staying in the relationship as a ground base.

One concept for sobriety with my SO has been

no use of sexuality in any way which hurts others. Including me.

I find that this definition encompasses a lot more than just the one person being with him/herself.

One difficulty she has had for a long long time was for her to communicate with her T the relevant information. She went around the bushes for a long long time, trying every possible options besides the relevant ones, discussing every possible details, except for the relevant ones.

I admit that many times I felt like you (I am not her therapist). She would try to turn to me, instead of talking to her T about some of the issues she had. Some of her sharing, at least the way she would word it, would be hurtful for me. I had to put a boundary around that. I did redirect her many many times to her T or the support line she used for support. I think that being the partner of SAs, we get to see a lot of what is going on for them, the real stuff. We get the front seat view. Because it may take a long time for them to warm up to their T, they may take a long time to get to talk about the relevant stuff. I had to nudge her on that, often did.

I can understand you considering your options to possibly leave the relationship, if he doesn't take his recovery more seriously. That makes his behavior not being a match to your deservedness and your truth.

I admit I don't know how to go about the fact that your relationship is like you say 'open'. Maybe there would be a need to re-evaluate under which conditions the relationship can exist at all, as a ground base, independantly of that.

The issue your H mentions about you possibly not wanting to return to him after all his hard work is done... I heard about that one many many times. I still hear about it these days. Naturally, the partners of SAs have some healing to do, if the relationship can be re-kindled. Many partners have felt huge feelings of relief and anger and grief, hard emotions needing to come out, once in therapeutic separation. This has a purpose for sure. I heard about this process from other partners in my support groups, and I experienced this for myself very recently as well. Lots of emotions go buried under in the midst of relating daily with all that stuff. There is a need for me time for sure. Serious healing needed.

I heard many partners saying that there was a time in their own recovery from the trauma, that they felt like they would not ever want to be near their SA partners again, so strong the hurt and the anger could be. That happens. That too can heal, if one is allowing for the proper process in one's life.


I wonder what are your ressources for you ?...

[Grey Kitty]

Vortex, I've got one piece that might help you.

Try not to take your H's CRAP personally. Because it isn't about you. It is all about him. He tries to shift it onto you--that way he doesn't have to address his own CRAP, and he really doesn't want to.

His online ads and dating profile? That is because HE needs some sort of emotional payoff by chasing after women. Nothing to do with you.

Playing computer games? He needs to numb his brain so he doesn't think about whatever he might be feeling. Nothing about you.

Ignoring household chores and needs by playing computer games? Nothing about you.

Not having any time or energy for his kids? (because he's on the computer) Not about you. Not about the kids either.

Not working his 12-step program? Nothing to do with you! It is hard work and he doesn't want to do it!



And the kicker... .if you do it personally... .react, and run off to the races with him on it... .

... .you are participating in his game. Now he's able to avoid his own crap, 'cuz he's successfully distracted himself by turning it into a fight with you!

 This is really tough to change. Really Really REALLY tough.

[MissyM]

That is something that the addict is supposed to identify. It is a process and takes time. It is kind of the same thing with a food addict. It is a little more difficult to figure out the parameters of what is considered "sober" and what isn't.

Actually, that is only in SAA.  In SA there are clearly defined boundaries around sobriety.  One of the reasons my dBPDh switched from SAA to SA, he just couldn't handle the ambiguity.

[yeeter]

You know, I initiated a divorce at one point.  Carried all the way through to the 11th hour and then aborted the process.  That changed things.

     I realized that I really did have choice.

     She realized that I really did have choice.

     It solidified what post divorce coparenting might look like (complete financial and parenting plans had to         be made, complete with where I would live and what each of our household budgets would be)

But the first two were the biggest, and consistent with each other:  I have a choice.  Knowing this, and really internalizing it, changes your perspective.  Of both parties.

[MissyM]

But the first two were the biggest, and consistent with each other:  I have a choice.  Knowing this, and really internalizing it, changes your perspective.  Of both parties.

We actually divorced and got back together.  Somehow my dBPDh was able to convince himself I was only with him because I had to be.  I knew I would survive without him.  That didn't really change the dynamic for us.  However, really getting a strong recovery for myself has made a world of difference.  I think seeing me very happy and healthy encouraged my dBPDh to choose the same path, it somehow made it more appealing for him.  They say recovery changes the dynamics and makes a change happen.  Sometime the change is that the partner joins in and sometimes it means the end of the relationship.  Either way, getting healthier myself was my best course of action.

[Notwendy]

They say recovery changes the dynamics and makes a change happen.  Sometime the change is that the partner joins in and sometimes it means the end of the relationship.  Either way, getting healthier myself was my best course of action.

This is what motivates me to be in recovery, no matter what happens. While I have no intention of ending the relationship, I realize that being codependent in it was not good for me emotionally. I have to do this for me and hopefully it will be better, but I can't expect it.

[waverider]

Change in itself is growth and evolution.

Stagnation without ambition is one of the major depressors

[waverider]

But the first two were the biggest, and consistent with each other:  I  However, really getting a strong recovery for myself has made a world of difference.  I think seeing me very happy and healthy encouraged my dBPDh to choose the same path, it somehow made it more appealing for him.  They say recovery changes the dynamics and makes a change happen.  Sometime the change is that the partner joins in and sometimes it means the end of the relationship.  Either way, getting healthier myself was my best course of action.

pwBPD dont have a great ability to visualize what is possible. Healthy lifestyle is an alien concept they can't grasp, and hence hold as a goal.  The only way they are going to have any chance to grasp this is for you to be doing it right under their nose by way of example. They still may not see it, or believe it is possible for them. But it is the best chance for motivation.

It will be confronting for them, but change starts with confronting reality, otherwise things stay the same

[Grey Kitty]

But the first two were the biggest, and consistent with each other:  I have a choice.  Knowing this, and really internalizing it, changes your perspective.  Of both parties.

That is where I am right now. My wife and I are living separately, and have pretty much since October. We are talking about when or how we might be together (assuming we reconcile), but it isn't going to happen for a while. Zero chance before March. Not a really good chance before summer... .maybe a year apart. We've had visits where we are back together, but are living apart.

We are both realizing it. That we can live apart, even thrive. That the other can do the same.

It is a different perspective. I'm still not 100% used to it.