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Author Topic: Staying until. . .How to figure out a realistic time frame?  (Read 796 times)
MissyM
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« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2015, 10:00:04 AM »

 
Excerpt
I didn't come right out and say NO! But, I thought the questions and concerns that I brought up made it perfectly clear that I wasn't okay with it. If I had clearly said no, he probably would have done it anyway. He keeps trying to make it an issue of us being in an open relationship and I am trying to take it back to the fact that I really need to be able to trust him before I will be okay with him doing certain things. I thought I was pretty clear about the fact that we needed to rebuild some trust between us.

Yes, I was afraid of saying what I really wanted. I knew it probably wouldn't matter. Heck, I tried to be perfectly clear that I wanted him to have 6 months of active sobriety (no posting ads and no profiles on dating sites) before I will even have certain discussions. He acted like that was such a loong time and was fishing for some kind of reassurance or guarantee that I will jump back in his arms and everything will be okay if he does everything that he is supposed to do. The thing is that he can't seem to consistently do anything.

Hmm, I know that sometimes being unclear can be a defense mechanism.  Would this be true for you?  Not stating what I want and need clearly because it is too painful if the answer is no.  Getting to where I could state what I wanted and needed clearly, then letting go of the outcome has been a huge focus for me in recovery.  Somehow that was terrifying for me, really stating what I wanted and having to face the possibility of rejection.

Maybe really examine the open relationship issue, perhaps have a meeting with your husband and his CSAT (which usually happens every few months, they bring the spouse in).  An open relationship may be something you are capable of but for an SA, that is like expecting them to be a social drinker.  This was a discussion that was had at the treatment center with my dBPDh and I.  Someone there was wanting to stay in an open relationship, that was SA, and they were very clear with him that it would never be possible for an SA to do that.  It is the slippery slope for them. 

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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2015, 10:22:04 AM »

Hmm, I know that sometimes being unclear can be a defense mechanism.  Would this be true for you?  Not stating what I want and need clearly because it is too painful if the answer is no.  Getting to where I could state what I wanted and needed clearly, then letting go of the outcome has been a huge focus for me in recovery.  Somehow that was terrifying for me, really stating what I wanted and having to face the possibility of rejection.

I think so. I think I am being clear but apparently not. Really, even when I am perfectly clear, like with the 6 month thing, it isn't taken seriously and is treated as though I am being too demanding. In the past, I have been perfectly clear and it seems like he finds a way to get me to relent. Not sure if it is the talking in circles or if it is something else.

Excerpt
Maybe really examine the open relationship issue, perhaps have a meeting with your husband and his CSAT (which usually happens every few months, they bring the spouse in).  An open relationship may be something you are capable of but for an SA, that is like expecting them to be a social drinker.  This was a discussion that was had at the treatment center with my dBPDh and I.  Someone there was wanting to stay in an open relationship, that was SA, and they were very clear with him that it would never be possible for an SA to do that.  It is the slippery slope for them. 

He doesn't have a therapist that is certified in sex addiction and there has NEVER been any discussion of me meeting with anybody. I don't think he has been to his therapist enough times to establish much of anything let alone get me involved. [/quote]
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MissyM
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« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2015, 10:43:37 AM »

Excerpt
In the past, I have been perfectly clear and it seems like he finds a way to get me to relent.

Yeah, I get that.  That is why I had to do so much work on boundaries.  It isn't that I didn't know what I wanted but that I would back down or just get worn out and give up.  Nothing changed until I changed that.  It was met with a lot of anger and push back, and then the switch to strategy of the long try at wear down.  It is up to me to have boundaries for myself.

Excerpt
He doesn't have a therapist that is certified in sex addiction and there has NEVER been any discussion of me meeting with anybody. I don't think he has been to his therapist enough times to establish much of anything let alone get me involved.

Oh, my misunderstanding.  Sorry about that.  I thought he saw a CSAT this last time.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2015, 12:04:58 PM »

I was wondering that too, about the open relationship. I'm not being critical of it, if that is something you both have chosen to do, but I was thinkking about this in terms of addiction.

I see where Vortex can handle this, much like I can drink a glass of wine and not get addicted, however, drinking a glass of wine in front of an alcoholic might be too tempting for the alcoholic. Also, I was currious about SA and after reading about it see where it is particularly hard to manage, since one can abstain from something like alcohol entirely without denying something we instinctually crave, but our sexuality is hard wired into us.

So while I agree that we do not necessarily have to have the same restrictions as the addict and the difference between a relationship and SA is as different as someone driking a glass of wine and the other one drinking the whole bottle--does the open relationship aspect make it harder than if there was an agreement that is less negotiable- nobody outside the marriage?
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2015, 01:11:05 PM »

I was wondering that too, about the open relationship. I'm not being critical of it, if that is something you both have chosen to do, but I was thinkking about this in terms of addiction.

I think the enmeshment complicates things as much as the addiction does. I had that revelation this morning. I was chatting briefly with a friend online. He said he wanted to go sit on the porch with me before work. I wrapped up the conversation and went and sat with him on the porch. The first question he asked was "Were you talking to your friend or so and so's mom?" I said "My friend." He quickly covered and said, "I was just curious. If you were talking to so and so's mom, I was going to ask you how she was doing. Just trying to make small talk and find something to talk about."

I don't want to lie or say "None of your business" but at the same time it seems kind of creepy that he not only saw me chatting with somebody but made it a point to ask who it was. I may see him doing stuff on his computer but I don't usually ask about the specifics.

Excerpt
I see where Vortex can handle this, much like I can drink a glass of wine and not get addicted, however, drinking a glass of wine in front of an alcoholic might be too tempting for the alcoholic. Also, I was currious about SA and after reading about it see where it is particularly hard to manage, since one can abstain from something like alcohol entirely without denying something we instinctually crave, but our sexuality is hard wired into us.

That is why it is so important for them to work with a sponsor and define what is considered acting out and what isn't. MissyM was referring to inner circle, outer circle, and middle circle behaviors. That is something that the addict is supposed to identify. It is a process and takes time. It is kind of the same thing with a food addict. It is a little more difficult to figure out the parameters of what is considered "sober" and what isn't.

Excerpt
So while I agree that we do not necessarily have to have the same restrictions as the addict and the difference between a relationship and SA is as different as someone driking a glass of wine and the other one drinking the whole bottle--does the open relationship aspect make it harder than if there was an agreement that is less negotiable- nobody outside the marriage?

I think it does make it more difficult because I have no way of knowing whether or not he is looking for other women to have a real relationship with or if he is looking for a fix. For me, if he is looking for other people to have a real relationship with, then I am posed with the question of, "Why can you work to have a relationship with that person but not me?" And, the enmeshment is a problem because he doesn't seem to be able to keep some information to himself. Instead of going to his sponsor or his therapist with some things, he comes to me. I need to figure out how to put a stop to that so the next time he asks me for input on certain topics I can tell him, "I will not have this discussion with you. You need to discuss it with your therapist or sponsor." Really, I think I need to do that with most of the topics that have come up between us lately as most of it seems to be focused on the openness of things. I really don't want to discuss it because I see it as a bit of a distraction from the real issues. For me, the number one issue is lack of trust and lack of consistency. And the other issue that I thought I had a grip on but it is becoming pretty clear that we are still too enmeshed. I think I slipped backwards because I was off work for a month and didn't really have much contact with people in real life.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2015, 01:29:14 PM »

I know this is not really a consolation to you, but until he's had a lot of recovery, I don't think any relationship he has online or with his seeking behavior can be a real relationship. His best chance of a relationship is with you, the woman in front of him, not the one on the internet.

All addictions are an escape from one's own bad feelings, and all of them are exploitative- using the addictive substance to feel better, whether it is sex, drugs, alcohol, gambling. As long as an addict is using, he/she is not recovering. So, IMHO, if he's doing any of this, he isn't having what you consider to be a relationship.

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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2015, 01:40:55 PM »

Oh, my misunderstanding.  Sorry about that.  I thought he saw a CSAT this last time.

I brought up the idea of his seeing a CSAT but he doesn't think he needs one. He says that he wants to focus on other stuff with his therapist and focus on the SA stuff in group.

For some reason, I find it kind of funny (in a sad way) that he says that his SA is the cause of everything and that if he takes care of that everything will be okay. He is all over the map with this stuff. I think that is why I stay confused a lot of the time. He will say one thing one day and then say something else the next day. I've read a lot of SA literature over the years and I am pretty sure that there is more going on that JUST SA. I know there is some depression and anxiety and OCD. Even that doesn't account for what seems like his basic inability to make certain connections.
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2015, 01:49:15 PM »

I know this is not really a consolation to you, but until he's had a lot of recovery, I don't think any relationship he has online or with his seeking behavior can be a real relationship. His best chance of a relationship is with you, the woman in front of him, not the one on the internet.

All addictions are an escape from one's own bad feelings, and all of them are exploitative- using the addictive substance to feel better, whether it is sex, drugs, alcohol, gambling. As long as an addict is using, he/she is not recovering. So, IMHO, if he's doing any of this, he isn't having what you consider to be a relationship.

I know that his best chance at a real relationship is with me. I am no longer willing to even consider us in a relationship unless or until he can show me that he is serious. As of yet, he hasn't done that. He still plays he computer games way more than I think is healthy for a grown adult. I don't mind if we aren't doing anything and the kids are all taken care of but he has this tendency where if you ask him for something he will say, "Just a minute. Let me finish what I am doing here." Yesterday, I went out with my oldest for a bit. I asked him to put some clothes in the dryer for me. He said, "I'll do it in a minute." I got home an hour or so later and asked him if he did it and he hadn't. He got so wrapped up in his game that he forgot. The forgetting part isn't a big deal. If I had a nickel for every time I forgot to do something because I got sidetracked by a kid or something else, I would be rich. The problem is that he gets sidetracked by his game and it is a pervasive pattern. It is one thing to overlook an occasional foible.

And I can't bring this stuff up with him because it seems to go back to him, "I know. I am a failure. Blah, blah, blah." UGH! I thought I had kind of nipped it the bud but his reaction to me trying to say that him posting/answering ads is not a way to rebuild trust led right back to "I know. I screwed up."
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Notwendy
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« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2015, 01:53:01 PM »

I hear you Vortex. I know that "level" thing in a game because my kids play them. However, they know that if they don't keep their grades up, do what they need to do, then the games are gone. You can't do that with a grown adult, and I understand that it has to be frustrating to see that your H doesn't stop when he needs to.
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braveSun
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« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2015, 02:06:36 AM »



I feel for you Vortex.   

I read your thread, and it reminds me how horrible I have felt not so long ago, having to swim with all that b--- s---. I have had a big stack of good o' brain salad schwished at me like you are describing for a long long time. I have no idea if this and when (if) that will come again. I wish it not. Not for you either.

It's not recovery.   

I don't know about the particulars of your situation. For me it has taken that I get consistent outside support rooting for me (my own support group, my own T, my own buddies, my own coaches, etc... ). Once all of this was in motion, I could feel the focus of my life and well being change.

I don't want to mean this is a recipe. There isn't any. For me I felt better that way. I have been having a set of boundaries for a long time, and it has taken a long time for most of them to be recognized and accepted. Most are now being met, but still not all of them quite. I feel much safer today. I have required monogamy and fidelity as a non-negociable. I have been physically separated for over a year now, with 2 periods of several weeks of NC. We'll see.

One thing I have seen is that with my SO, she has seen a CSAT for over a year, and she has attended treatment centers a few times over that year. She did not take to any support groups though. She did shift in her mindfulness about her addiction, yes. It has worked for some good patches, and I can say she is in recovery. That's a condition for me to consider staying in the relationship as a ground base.

One concept for sobriety with my SO has been

no use of sexuality in any way which hurts others. Including me.

I find that this definition encompasses a lot more than just the one person being with him/herself.

One difficulty she has had for a long long time was for her to communicate with her T the relevant information. She went around the bushes for a long long time, trying every possible options besides the relevant ones, discussing every possible details, except for the relevant ones.

I admit that many times I felt like you (I am not her therapist). She would try to turn to me, instead of talking to her T about some of the issues she had. Some of her sharing, at least the way she would word it, would be hurtful for me. I had to put a boundary around that. I did redirect her many many times to her T or the support line she used for support. I think that being the partner of SAs, we get to see a lot of what is going on for them, the real stuff. We get the front seat view. Because it may take a long time for them to warm up to their T, they may take a long time to get to talk about the relevant stuff. I had to nudge her on that, often did.

I can understand you considering your options to possibly leave the relationship, if he doesn't take his recovery more seriously. That makes his behavior not being a match to your deservedness and your truth.

I admit I don't know how to go about the fact that your relationship is like you say 'open'. Maybe there would be a need to re-evaluate under which conditions the relationship can exist at all, as a ground base, independantly of that.

The issue your H mentions about you possibly not wanting to return to him after all his hard work is done... I heard about that one many many times. I still hear about it these days. Naturally, the partners of SAs have some healing to do, if the relationship can be re-kindled. Many partners have felt huge feelings of relief and anger and grief, hard emotions needing to come out, once in therapeutic separation. This has a purpose for sure. I heard about this process from other partners in my support groups, and I experienced this for myself very recently as well. Lots of emotions go buried under in the midst of relating daily with all that stuff. There is a need for me time for sure. Serious healing needed.

I heard many partners saying that there was a time in their own recovery from the trauma, that they felt like they would not ever want to be near their SA partners again, so strong the hurt and the anger could be. That happens. That too can heal, if one is allowing for the proper process in one's life.


I wonder what are your ressources for you ?...






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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2015, 08:01:24 AM »

Vortex, I've got one piece that might help you.

Try not to take your H's CRAP personally. Because it isn't about you. It is all about him. He tries to shift it onto you--that way he doesn't have to address his own CRAP, and he really doesn't want to.

His online ads and dating profile? That is because HE needs some sort of emotional payoff by chasing after women. Nothing to do with you.

Playing computer games? He needs to numb his brain so he doesn't think about whatever he might be feeling. Nothing about you.

Ignoring household chores and needs by playing computer games? Nothing about you.

Not having any time or energy for his kids? (because he's on the computer) Not about you. Not about the kids either.

Not working his 12-step program? Nothing to do with you! It is hard work and he doesn't want to do it!



And the kicker... .if you do it personally... .react, and run off to the races with him on it... .

... .you are participating in his game. Now he's able to avoid his own crap, 'cuz he's successfully distracted himself by turning it into a fight with you!

 This is really tough to change. Really Really REALLY tough.
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MissyM
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« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2015, 10:38:06 AM »

Excerpt
That is something that the addict is supposed to identify. It is a process and takes time. It is kind of the same thing with a food addict. It is a little more difficult to figure out the parameters of what is considered "sober" and what isn't.

Actually, that is only in SAA.  In SA there are clearly defined boundaries around sobriety.  One of the reasons my dBPDh switched from SAA to SA, he just couldn't handle the ambiguity.
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yeeter
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« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2015, 11:44:08 AM »

You know, I initiated a divorce at one point.  Carried all the way through to the 11th hour and then aborted the process.  That changed things.

     I realized that I really did have choice.

     She realized that I really did have choice.

     It solidified what post divorce coparenting might look like (complete financial and parenting plans had to         be made, complete with where I would live and what each of our household budgets would be)

But the first two were the biggest, and consistent with each other:  I have a choice.  Knowing this, and really internalizing it, changes your perspective.  Of both parties.


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MissyM
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« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2015, 03:09:07 PM »

Excerpt
But the first two were the biggest, and consistent with each other:  I have a choice.  Knowing this, and really internalizing it, changes your perspective.  Of both parties.

We actually divorced and got back together.  Somehow my dBPDh was able to convince himself I was only with him because I had to be.  I knew I would survive without him.  That didn't really change the dynamic for us.  However, really getting a strong recovery for myself has made a world of difference.  I think seeing me very happy and healthy encouraged my dBPDh to choose the same path, it somehow made it more appealing for him.  They say recovery changes the dynamics and makes a change happen.  Sometime the change is that the partner joins in and sometimes it means the end of the relationship.  Either way, getting healthier myself was my best course of action.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2015, 03:14:32 PM »

They say recovery changes the dynamics and makes a change happen.  Sometime the change is that the partner joins in and sometimes it means the end of the relationship.  Either way, getting healthier myself was my best course of action.

This is what motivates me to be in recovery, no matter what happens. While I have no intention of ending the relationship, I realize that being codependent in it was not good for me emotionally. I have to do this for me and hopefully it will be better, but I can't expect it.
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waverider
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If YOU don't change, things will stay the same


« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2015, 03:30:22 PM »

Change in itself is growth and evolution.

Stagnation without ambition is one of the major depressors

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waverider
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« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2015, 03:39:40 PM »

But the first two were the biggest, and consistent with each other:  I  However, really getting a strong recovery for myself has made a world of difference.  I think seeing me very happy and healthy encouraged my dBPDh to choose the same path, it somehow made it more appealing for him.  They say recovery changes the dynamics and makes a change happen.  Sometime the change is that the partner joins in and sometimes it means the end of the relationship.  Either way, getting healthier myself was my best course of action.

pwBPD dont have a great ability to visualize what is possible. Healthy lifestyle is an alien concept they can't grasp, and hence hold as a goal.  The only way they are going to have any chance to grasp this is for you to be doing it right under their nose by way of example. They still may not see it, or believe it is possible for them. But it is the best chance for motivation.

It will be confronting for them, but change starts with confronting reality, otherwise things stay the same
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2015, 04:46:16 PM »

But the first two were the biggest, and consistent with each other:  I have a choice.  Knowing this, and really internalizing it, changes your perspective.  Of both parties.

That is where I am right now. My wife and I are living separately, and have pretty much since October. We are talking about when or how we might be together (assuming we reconcile), but it isn't going to happen for a while. Zero chance before March. Not a really good chance before summer... .maybe a year apart. We've had visits where we are back together, but are living apart.

We are both realizing it. That we can live apart, even thrive. That the other can do the same.

It is a different perspective. I'm still not 100% used to it.
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