Should I let him pay for his own mistakes?

[foxangel82]

My BPD husband is getting off pretty easy for his assault on me at the end of November. I am happy with the outcome and want to reconcile with him even though we are currently separated. He hired a defense attorney even though the case never went to trial.

The day I pressed charges he was admitted to the psych ward and stayed there for a few days.

His T says he misses me terribly and is open to couples counseling which makes me happy. He has been getting a lot of therapy and will likely continue to for some time.

My question is about whether I should help him. He has told me he now owes thousands of dollars in legal and medical fees. If I were in his position I know I would appreciate any help. However, I don't want to enable him or seem to say that I am to blame for this so I should pay.

We both work and I do not struggle financially. I still have thousands of dollars in cash that his family gave us for our recent wedding. But he also took all of the money from our joint bank account ($2,200) which covers about half of his costs. Should I extend some of the wedding cash to him since half is technically his?  Is it better to make him pay for his mistakes so to speak?  It seems complicated if I want to remain married and think of this from an "us" perspective.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

In effect he crossed a boundary. You did what you did to protect your boundary. The consequences of that are his as part of complying with that boundary.

Two aspects

~Will he fully owned his part in this if you share the consequence

~How will you feel if he slides and it is not all "fixed" and you have bailed him out, will you feel cheated?

It is tempting to believe lesson is learned. But it takes a long time to consolidate that.

[hope2727]

From my own experience I would say absolutely do not pay it. There are many reasons but the main one i that with all the meta analysis and long term longitudinal studies it appears that all treatment modalities for abusers have been found ineffective in the long term. So abusers appear well and healed and then slide back into the pattern of abuse. It is a cycle and is a deeply engrained part of their core values. I found this tremendously discouraging and sad. However I also found it to be true.

Waverider posts the most profound question about how you will feel if you pay and he relapses. I can tell you I felt foolish, betrayed, sad, mad, hurt, scared and stupid. Oh and broke, I felt broke.   It took my ex-husband tipping our family to the brink of bankruptcy to make me take a financial stand. And yes I made more money than him. He sucked every penny up over several years of reconciliations including 2 psychologists, his own personal therapy and marriage counselling. Abuse is a cycle and it has a huge relapse rate. It took a lot for me to learn. And what did I learn?   Words are cheap. Actions are valuable. Actions over the short term can be manipulated and controlled  but over the long term show one's true character. Oh yes and I learned we all have to lie in the beds we make. This is true of us on the receiving end too, no matter how uncomfortable that bed may be. I found it torturous to watch my ex husband struggle financially. Once, long after we split he thanked me for letting him fall. He said he needed to learn and I couldn't tell him. He had to experience it. Besides, how do you think the people who gifted you that money for your wedding will feel about having it pay for his abuse? I'd be outraged if it was a gift i'd given.

May I suggest that you sympathize that it is frustrating to have debt. Empathize that you hate having debts too. Then admire that he is so smart and capable you are sure he will find a way to make extra income and pay it off quickly. Then if you like set the same amount in a savings account labeled honeymoon account. Do NOT TELL HIM! Wait 2 years and if all is well take yourselves on a trip to celebrate your new healthier relationship.  If all in not well you have an emergency account. Remember paying his debt is like paying for him to have abused you. You should not be fined for your own abuse.

Abuse sucks. It is the ultimate violation of an intimate trust.  :'( I still struggle to wrap my head around both my ex husband and my ex fiancee. They were different and yet the same. Both lovely men whom I loved deeply. Both smart and insightful yet they are both abusers in very different ways.  I have had huge amounts of counselling and yet I still struggle to not be a target. Its so weird. I am so sorry you have to endure this. I can tell you are an amazing, strong person and will get through this. Meanwhile   I will post a few web sites that have helped me. Good luck and keep us posted.  

www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/cycle_of_abuse.html

www.abuseandrelationships.org/Content/Survivors/waiting_for_change.html

www.abuseandrelationships.org/Content/Survivors/going_back.html

www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/cycle_of_abuse.html

www.escapeabuse.com/?p=110

[Stalwart]

I can only speak from my own experience foxangle. Firstly I'd like to just say that I really feel for the predicament you're in. I'm certain it's not what you thought it was going to be but I can so understand and relate to the legal difficulties, financial commitments, and the entire situation you find yourself in.

It is my experience that nothing happens quickly, nor does it happen in a linear direction with someone with this disorder regardless of how committed they are to self-improvement. I can say this that I really am hopeful and happy that your spouse does recognize his illness, has a diagnosis he accepts and is committed to helping and changing himself.

I really think that's the key issue though foxangle and that's allowing him to 'help himself'. There is one thing I've certainly experienced through learning, changing myself and yes, trial and error developing my own appropriate listening skills and responses through the use of all the tools of the trade - you can't change him. You can assist him to help change himself through learning how to change the dynamics in your relationship but only he can change himself.

Tricky situation because you are both aware that it really is joint ownership of the money especially considering it came from his side of the family if I read that correctly. I really have no answers for you nor do I really like to suggest solutions because all too often we jump to conclusions when we really don't have enough information to even consider we deserve a judgment in other's situations at all. I do know if I were in the same situation, knowing my wife's real weakness is mismanagement of finances I would come to a compromise and offer to assist with installed payments and not a lump sum amount. That might seem a little manipulative or that you might seem to be trying to threaten his behavior or conduct but I doubt that's really the case. You can't control his take on it or his reality of the situation and what it is to him, you can only assure him of your intent and your reality on it.

Like I say foxangle you have a better understanding of how that would apply to your own situation than I would. Are his parents supportive of the situation and your part in the relationship with him? Maybe they could help out in the decision if they are and if they agree with you it would help validate your decision. I think we all know under the right (or wrong) circumstances that could be a loaded clip waiting to be fired if he feels as though everyone is 'ganging' up on him so finesse is the name of the game in any decision and probably will be for a long time to come.

I really, really hope you find a resolution to this immediate issue and hope so much that you both learn how to improve the dynamics. It seems you're newer in the relationship so now would be great before too much water goes under the bridge and heightens the problems exponentially.

Best of luck sweetheart and let us know how it progresses. Thanks for sharing.

Rick

[Cat Familiar]

My ex-husband began verbally abusing me early in our relationship. He escalated that to physical abuse. When I became afraid for my life, I ended our long marriage and I have never looked back.

Many years later, I saw his name in the newspaper when he was arrested for assaulting his new wife. Before he was arraigned on his charges, the two of them fled to another state. Currently there is an active arrest warrant for him and I've heard from his nephew that he fears returning to this state.

That said, perhaps if he had received consequences for his behavior early on, it might never have gotten this far.

I think by helping to pay for his bad behavior, you would indeed be enabling him. It doesn't matter that the money came from his family. You can put it in a savings account for the future and designate it for a positive use.

He really needs to feel the consequences of his actions. Being sorry is not enough.

[foxangel82]

I can only speak from my own experience foxangel. Firstly I'd like to just say that I really feel for the predicament you're in. I'm certain it's not what you thought it was going to be but I can so understand and relate to the legal difficulties, financial commitments, and the entire situation you find yourself in.

It is my experience that nothing happens quickly, nor does it happen in a linear direction with someone with this disorder regardless of how committed they are to self-improvement. I can say this that I really am hopeful and happy that your spouse does recognize his illness, has a diagnosis he accepts and is committed to helping and changing himself.

I really think that's the key issue though foxangel and that's allowing him to 'help himself'. There is one thing I've certainly experienced through learning, changing myself and yes, trial and error developing my own appropriate listening skills and responses through the use of all the tools of the trade - you can't change him. You can assist him to help change himself through learning how to change the dynamics in your relationship but only he can change himself.

Tricky situation because you are both aware that it really is joint ownership of the money especially considering it came from his side of the family if I read that correctly. I really have no answers for you nor do I really like to suggest solutions because all too often we jump to conclusions when we really don't have enough information to even consider we deserve a judgment in other's situations at all. I do know if I were in the same situation, knowing my wife's real weakness is mismanagement of finances I would come to a compromise and offer to assist with installed payments and not a lump sum amount. That might seem a little manipulative or that you might seem to be trying to threaten his behavior or conduct but I doubt that's really the case. You can't control his take on it or his reality of the situation and what it is to him, you can only assure him of your intent and your reality on it.

Like I say foxangel you have a better understanding of how that would apply to your own situation than I would. Are his parents supportive of the situation and your part in the relationship with him? Maybe they could help out in the decision if they are and if they agree with you it would help validate your decision. I think we all know under the right (or wrong) circumstances that could be a loaded clip waiting to be fired if he feels as though everyone is 'ganging' up on him so finesse is the name of the game in any decision and probably will be for a long time to come.

I really, really hope you find a resolution to this immediate issue and hope so much that you both learn how to improve the dynamics. It seems you're newer in the relationship so now would be great before too much water goes under the bridge and heightens the problems exponentially.

Best of luck sweetheart and let us know how it progresses. Thanks for sharing.

Rick

I'll start by saying in his defense he is not abusive.  I've looked at the checklists and talked to people at the women's shelter.  He is not a controlling person, he is not physically abusive other than that one time.  He has been verbally abusive only on a handful of occasions, which after so many years I would say is pretty normal-hey we all lose our cool sometimes.  He does not prevent me from being with friends or family or from spending money.  He is not a jealous person or a "macho man."  He's a feminist.  He did not rush into the relationship, I let him set the pace and we did things pretty slowly. We have always dealt fairly with each other and been honest. 

I should say that as far as I know he has not been diagnosed with BPD.  I don't know if his T decided this would be devastating news and decided not to share it or if they haven't considered it as a diagnosis. When we first met he did mention that his thinking can be "all or nothing", that he has "cognitive distortions", can be impulsive and has social anxiety.

I have come to realize that he would have harmed anyone that night if they were there.  I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  He was drunk at the time and seems committed to staying sober now.

I am fond of his dad, the day before he went to the psych ward I was pleading with H to be kinder to his dad.  When they are on the phone he is terse and acts annoyed.  I know his dad loves him but might not show it the way my H wants him to.  I said he should tell his dad if he wants verbal affirmations of love and that way he at least has a chance to change things.

My H's sister is younger, immature and a little weird/anti-social.  She tried to be my "therapist" after the attack occurred but I felt that she couldn't really emphasize with me.  She seems to accept that his tantrums are normal and to be expected.  He told me in the car after he broke the window with his head (right before I took him to the ER/psych ward) that his sister said there "was no hope for her (as in me) and that if she offers divorce H should just take it"  She has never had a romantic relationship to my knowledge so I don't think she understands that things take work, time and patience.

His parents have money and may have already given him a lump sum to cover these costs.  It's not clear to me at this point.

I asked him via text message if he blames me for what has happened.  He told me he would need to speak to his attorney before he can answer that.  I think that this is not my fault at all and if he does place the blame on me I would not extend the funds to him. 

He is telling me that he won't speak to me one on one or "reciprocate emotional statements" until after the court date on Feb 6.  He keeps saying he is afraid of being accused of witness tampering. However the court date is just a hearing where he will accept a "finding under assessment" and agree to get tests (substance abuse and mental health) and attend domestic violence classes.  It is not a trial (he will  not need to enter a plea), I will not attend it and I am not longer needed to testify.  I think he has a hard time understanding the legal system.  Maybe I will just need to see what he does in a couple more weeks.

I would not feel bad never seeing the money again.  I am not in desperate need of money and my income is probably twice that of his.  I have considered offering to pay for his counseling sessions.  Perhaps I just need to wait 2 weeks for him to decide what he wants to do.  His T is waiting to hear from him if she can take me as a client since there would be a conflict of interest.  The hope is that we would each receive individual counseling with her and then do couples therapy and reconcile. She will only take me as a client if he intends to do couples therapy.

I don't have fantasies of changing him.  I see my own mistakes in this.  In the 2 month gap between the attack and when I pressed charges I had hardened my heart out of the pain and hurt that I felt.  He tried to ask for forgiveness multiple times and to please me but I wanted even more groveling than he was willing to do.  When he would try to apologize as I wanted him to it that would cause him to become disregulated emotionally and lead to a tantrum.  Then he would avoid me because seeing me upset and sad reminded him of what he did.

I am afraid when/if he sees me he will be reminded of what he has done and feel overcome with guilt and feelings of being a "monster".

He is surrounded by many supportive people right now.  Many of which have stated that I deserved what happened.  I plan on seeing a new T and trying to pick apart the truth behind all this.  I am not sure what he has told these friends exactly.  I know that he did say he was going to use me as a scapegoat for teetotaling--as in he will claim that his wife doesn't want him to drink in order to avoid peer pressure to drink alcohol socially.  I am sure that this lie probably contributes to their assessment that I am controlling.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm very concerned with your repeated use of the word "tantrum" and the fact that the "supportive" people around him have stated that you "deserve what happened." Also that he has a history of being unkind to his father and that his sister "seems to accept that his tantrums are normal and to be expected."

You also state: "When he would try to apologize as I wanted him to it that would cause him to become disregulated emotionally and lead to a tantrum."

Sweetie, I am seeing red flags in so many places in your last post. Apparently he has a history of tantrums and his supportive people certainly don't seem to be supportive of you. I would think through this very carefully before you place yourself in a position of enabling him and letting him off the hook financially. It sounds like his family has a different impression of him than you do.

[formflier]

I asked him via text message if he blames me for what has happened.  He told me he would need to speak to his attorney before he can answer that.  I think that this is not my fault at all and if he does place the blame on me I would not extend the funds to him. 

Foxangel82,

Are you supposed to be in contact with him?  Do you know for sure that his lawyer and treatment are ok with you being in contact?  Might be separate answers for both.

Lots of stuff jumps out at me from your post... but this was most concerning.

This sounds like a traumatic situation... .it appears he is dealing with his end... .that is up to him to work on.  You can evaluate that later.

It's up to you to work on your end.  Please get with a T asap and start working through what has happened to you.

Please keep coming back here and posting/learning.

My hope is that you can learn emotionally healthy ways to relate... .  That is always a good thing!

[formflier]

Words are cheap. Actions are valuable. Actions over the short term can be manipulated and controlled  but over the long term show one's true character. 

Foxangle82,

Please focus on this statement... .keep coming back to this statement.

The future of your r/s (relationship) will be determined over a long time... .a long time where you observe the behavior of your SO.


Another reason to limit or restrict contact right now... .let him clean up his side of the street (so to speak)... .and let you clean up your side.

What do you think about this concept?

[waverider]

Be careful of not teaching him what you want him to say or do.

He must reach this point on his own initiative.

To change anyone's personality, even ours, it has to come from within, otherwise we take short cuts and role play.

[foxangel82]

I asked him via text message if he blames me for what has happened.  He told me he would need to speak to his attorney before he can answer that.  I think that this is not my fault at all and if he does place the blame on me I would not extend the funds to him. 

Foxangel82,

Are you supposed to be in contact with him?  Do you know for sure that his lawyer and treatment are ok with you being in contact?  Might be separate answers for both.

Lots of stuff jumps out at me from your post... but this was most concerning.

This sounds like a traumatic situation... .it appears he is dealing with his end... .that is up to him to work on.  You can evaluate that later.

It's up to you to work on your end.  Please get with a T asap and start working through what has happened to you.

Please keep coming back here and posting/learning.

My hope is that you can learn emotionally healthy ways to relate... .  That is always a good thing!

I already saw one therapist (an intern) for 7 sessions.  She had no prior experience with trauma/domestic violence or BPD. I would ask her how to apply SET and she had no idea what I was talking about and would just recommend websites.  Yet the websites she was recommending were ones I had already visited.  I am on my 3rd book about being with someone with BPD (I hate you don't leave me) and I have already finished (stop walking on eggshells and when hope is not enough).  What helped me most was the book "happiness is a serious problem" which is not even about BPD at all.  I feel like I have processed the trauma at this point and just want to move on and stop being the victim.

I have to think that if so many people are not afraid of him and have come to blame me then maybe I am part of the problem.  I think with the next T I want to focus on my entire life from the beginning until now and see how everything is connected.  What I really want is some role playing or reassurance that I have made the right choices in how I react to what has happened.

His sister is aware of his tantrums and had to face them herself in the past.  She blamed me for a very emotional phone call he had with her after I had wanted him to act sorry for what he had done.

As far as contacting him, the protective order permits us to speak to each other.  He is really just being paranoid or maybe he doesn't want to speak to me I don't know. We have been separated for nearly 2 months already.  Part of that time we were not speaking which was very difficult. 

It is hard to sum up everything on these boards and it does seem unfair to him that I am only sharing the bad things he has done.  He does feel lost sometimes about how to interact with people and would look to me for tips in the past on proper etiquette.  I think he had(and does?) want to make things up to me but neither of us is very sure about how to go about that.  I wanted him to stop being friends with the people that were unsupportive of me but maybe that's not the right thing to ask him to do.  There is a danger that I could become too controlling or unreasonable and so I want a T to guide us.

[formflier]

I already saw one therapist (an intern) for 7 sessions.  She had no prior experience with trauma/domestic violence or BPD. I would ask her how to apply SET and she had no idea what I was talking about and would just recommend websites.  Yet the websites she was recommending were ones I had already visited.  I am on my 3rd book about being with someone with BPD (I hate you don't leave me) and I have already finished (stop walking on eggshells and when hope is not enough).  What helped me most was the book "happiness is a serious problem" which is not even about BPD at all.  I feel like I have processed the trauma at this point and just want to move on and stop being the victim.

Please keep looking... .find someone with experience.  Someone that has experience helping people that have been traumatized in a r/s with a pwBPD. 

This T is for you... .NOT for the pwBPD

  However... they need to understand what you have been through. 

When is your appointment with a new T?

I have to think that if so many people are not afraid of him and have come to blame me then maybe I am part of the problem.

Why do you have to think this way?  Help me understand this... .

Listen... .you may... .or may not have issues that you need to work on.  (Hint:  Most of us do... .I do.  And I'm working on that.  Good mental health is not easy... it is hard work!)

You also may... .or may not... .be part of the problem  Please don't figure that out for yourself.  Work through that with an experienced therapist... .  Yes... .we all need to own "our part" of a relationship issue.  Figuring that out can take a while

  

As far as contacting him, the protective order permits us to speak to each other.  He is really just being paranoid or maybe he doesn't want to speak to me I don't know. We have been separated for nearly 2 months already.  Part of that time we were not speaking which was very difficult. 

I didn't see an answer to my question...

It appears he is getting some intensive treatment... .that is a big deal... .you want to support that in every way.  DO NOT listen to him about this.  Listen to his treatment team. 

What have they said about how much... .or how little... .or if at all... .you should be in contact.

Next issue:  He has a lawyer... it is an issue that involves you... .please respect that... .it will take time.

[foxangel82]

I already saw one therapist (an intern) for 7 sessions.  She had no prior experience with trauma/domestic violence or BPD. I would ask her how to apply SET and she had no idea what I was talking about and would just recommend websites.  Yet the websites she was recommending were ones I had already visited.  I am on my 3rd book about being with someone with BPD (I hate you don't leave me) and I have already finished (stop walking on eggshells and when hope is not enough).  What helped me most was the book "happiness is a serious problem" which is not even about BPD at all.  I feel like I have processed the trauma at this point and just want to move on and stop being the victim.

Please keep looking... .find someone with experience.  Someone that has experience helping people that have been traumatized in a r/s with a pwBPD. 

This T is for you... .NOT for the pwBPD

  However... they need to understand what you have been through. 

When is your appointment with a new T?

I have to think that if so many people are not afraid of him and have come to blame me then maybe I am part of the problem.

Why do you have to think this way?  Help me understand this... .

Listen... .you may... .or may not have issues that you need to work on.  (Hint:  Most of us do... .I do.  And I'm working on that.  Good mental health is not easy... it is hard work!)

You also may... .or may not... .be part of the problem  Please don't figure that out for yourself.  Work through that with an experienced therapist... .  Yes... .we all need to own "our part" of a relationship issue.  Figuring that out can take a while

  

As far as contacting him, the protective order permits us to speak to each other.  He is really just being paranoid or maybe he doesn't want to speak to me I don't know. We have been separated for nearly 2 months already.  Part of that time we were not speaking which was very difficult. 

I didn't see an answer to my question...

It appears he is getting some intensive treatment... .that is a big deal... .you want to support that in every way.  DO NOT listen to him about this.  Listen to his treatment team. 

What have they said about how much... .or how little... .or if at all... .you should be in contact.

Next issue:  He has a lawyer... it is an issue that involves you... .please respect that... .it will take time.

As I said already I am looking for a new T.  The last one could only see me for a limited number of sessions anyway.  This town is extremely difficult to find anyone.  Even the one I am talking to won't be able to see me until the second week of Feb and that is if he agrees that the conflict of interest is OK.  The therapist admits that he misses me terribly and thought that he was not allowed to contact me.  She does not think that me having contact with him is a bad thing and actually seems pleased to have a chance to reconcile us.  She says ultimately the choice is up to him if he wants to allow this and I respect that.  At this point I will do whatever will make him happy.  I love him but if he truly doesn't want a relationship with me then I can accept that.

I don't honestly think that I am to blame for him assaulting me, but I have made mistakes in the relationship (as everyone has I'm sure).  I am looking at everything with new eyes considering that I believe he has BPD.

I thought I mentioned in my previous posts that he had a lawyer because he assaulted me.  It really doesn't have to do with me.  It's to defend himself against the state's prosecutor.  However, at this stage the prosecutor has told me that the case is already resolved and my role in it is finished--I am not needed for any testimony.  His lawyer obviously has another motive to make him paranoid--if he remains worried he will need to contact his attorney before every move he makes, thereby racking up more expenses and fees. 

I have already spoken to a separate immigration lawyer about his situation and they (and the state prosecutor) agree there is no reason for him to worry about "witness tampering" at this point.

[formflier]

As I said already I am looking for a new T. 

Good... .when do you expect to have one?  Why is it hard to find a T in this town?  Maybe we can help brainstorm.

   The therapist admits that he misses me terribly and thought that he was not allowed to contact me.

So... please help me understand why you are communicating with him...

  actually seems pleased to have a chance to reconcile us.

Ts and Ps are professionals.  Focus on their "prescriptions" ... .please don't worry about what pleases or displeases them.

  At this point I will do whatever will make him happy.  I love him but if he truly doesn't want a relationship with me then I can accept that.

Please take some time to think through doing something to "make" someone else happy.  As a general statement... that is not a good plan... .not a wise plan... .most likely will not lead to an emotionally healthy relationship.

Specifically to this situation... .I think it is even more important to do what is wise for you to get you emotionally healthy.  Once his treatment team says he is back in good mental and emotional health... .let the professionals guide you on evaluating a possible reconciliation... .

I don't honestly think that I am to blame for him assaulting me,

Good... .  Who is to blame for him assaulting you?

I thought I mentioned in my previous posts that he had a lawyer because he assaulted me.  It really doesn't have to do with me. 

This confuses me... .how is it that the lawyer of the person that assaulted you... .has nothing to do with you?  I'm missing something.

I osecutor has told me that the case is already resolved and my role in it is finished--I am not needed for any testimony.  His lawyer obviously has another motive to make him paranoid--if he remains worried he will need to contact his attorney before every move he makes, thereby racking up more expenses and fees. 

Or the lawyer could be protecting his clientes best interests.  Not yours.  And... let's be clear.  Is the case over? 

[Grey Kitty]

I am happy with the outcome and want to reconcile with him even though we are currently separated.

My question is about whether I should help him. He has told me he now owes thousands of dollars in legal and medical fees.

If you do reconcile with him successfully... .and most of this discussion above relates to that, then consider helping him financially.

I don't see a good reason to give him money considering your current status.

I'd work on what it will take to reconcile, and whether you really want to first.

If he wouldn't reconcile with you unless you gave him money for this stuff, that doesn't seem very trustworthy.

[waverider]

"making him happy"... .pwBPD think in terms of their immediate needs.

Meeting immediate needs is not the healthy approach to anything.

You being strong and stable, and him permanently addressing his own problems to keep you both happy is what is best for you and him in the long run. However you can't make him play his part. You have to leave him to it and provide support and appreciation for his efforts as appropriate.

Commensurate rewards are not given until results are obtained and consolidated.

Do not give an advance on rewards based on good intentions, this can undermine his willpower, and he will need it all (and so will you).

[waverider]

As far as your responsibility for issues goes, any relationship is a dynamic of action/counter action and counter action to that counter action. We all play our part. Despite doing our best we wont get it ideal. You are learning now how to lesson your negative influence as best you can. That does not mean it was "your fault" before.

Dont think about fault, think about degree of influence. We can't avoid our influence, but we can become more aware of it and the part it plays. That is our part in our recovery.

[foxangel82]

I don't want too get too deep into the details but yes the case is over.  I have checked twice already with the state attorney.  He has a hearing on Feb 6 to accept the FUA, after 1 year probation assuming he follows all the court orders everything will be dismissed and he'll never have to plead guilty or innocent.  Some may think this is bad since he's not "admitting guilt" but it would be detrimental to his immigration status so I agree an FUA is the way to go.  Again, I have been told I do not need to testify.

I AM ALLOWED TO TALK TO HIM.  HE IS ALLOWED TO TALK TO ME.  Since December 19 our protective order has allowed contact and only prohibited violence/threats and damage to property.  I asked him if he was avoiding me because of the protective order and he said no, he believes that the trial is still ongoing and keeps claiming he fears speaking will be considered witness tampering.  This makes me suspect he is not in frequent contact with his lawyer... .an agreement with his lawyer was only reached on 1/16/15 so maybe he wasn't told about it yet.

If he decides I am not the best person to meet his needs to make him happy then I have come to accept that.  I don't think that's an unreasonable stance to take.

In my town, many T are "not taking new clients"  if there are any T out there this town probably needs you... .even the one I have contacted told me that before my call she told herself she wouldn't take any more but then she couldn't say no when I told her it was me.

Of course I blame the assault on him and to a smaller extent the guy that said racist things to him to get him so disregulated.

He is not asking me for any money.  He mentioned that he can't afford to go to a conference in February since he owes so much to the hospital and lawyer that he hired.

When I say that him having a lawyer for assaulting me has nothing to do with me it's because the case is not Foxangel82 vs. Husband.  The case is State vs. Husband.  I am merely a witness.  When I wanted to drop the case it didn't matter-I had no say.  In any case everything is settled he just has to formally accept the deal.  He told me he was worried it could get rescinded by me or the state attorney but I checked and again I don't have the power to do that and the state can't change their mind either.  He's just being paranoid.  The only way he could get in trouble would be with violating the protective order, which may be vague enough that he could fear being with me alone.  I would be willing to drop the protective order if I was able to get my own car insurance first (right now he needs to keep me on his policy).

I am being smart about this.  I do not expect to reconcile and have him move back in right away.  I think if we meet at counseling sessions with a third party that would be a good start. If things go well we can take the next step and date each other but still live apart.  Of course if I make these kinds of plans things probably won't work out... .I'll keep everyone posted about what happens.

[formflier]

I don't want too get too deep into the details but yes the case is over.

Oh... .so... .if it's over... .why does he still have hearings?  That doesn't sound over.  In my line of work... .I have heavy involvement with court system.  None of this sounds even close to being "over"... .which is why I am asking questions... .there may be something I am missing.

  assuming he follows all the court orders

Is it a good idea to make assumptions?  The court system seems to be using time for him to "prove" his good intentions.  Very similar to the advice you are getting here.

Again, I have been told I do not need to testify.

This is what confuses me... .if it's over... .then there are no more things to be involved with or testify... .yet he still has hearings. 

What happens if they call you up and say something has changed... .and you need to testify?  Again... .I see changes in witness plans... .all the time.

I AM ALLOWED TO TALK TO HIM.  HE IS ALLOWED TO TALK TO ME. 

So... .why did the one T think you were not allowed?  Why does he think he is not allowed? 

I still don't think I see a clear answer.  My question is about the people that are treating him... .that are part of his mental health support team.  This team is for him.  Do they want you guys communicating?  How do you know this information?

  he believes that the trial is still ongoing and keeps claiming he fears speaking will be considered witness tampering.

I'll be honest... .I've read nothing here... .NOTHING... .that clearly leads me to believe that he is wrong.  This is about him... .not you.  He is the one "on trial" and has a lot to loose.  It sounds like his lawyer has given him good advice.  I would let him follow his lawyers advice... .

  This makes me suspect he is not in frequent contact with his lawyer... .an agreement with his lawyer was only reached on 1/16/15 so maybe he wasn't told about it yet.

Has the judge and the rest of the system "signed off" on this agreement?

make him happy 

Is this a phrase that you commonly use?  What do you think of waveriders comments?

 

He is not asking me for any money.  He mentioned that he can't afford to go to a conference in February since he owes so much to the hospital and lawyer that he hired.

Good... I'm glad he hasn't asked.  With everything else going on... .best to drop the answer.  If he wants you to consider this... .he will clearly ask.  At that point you can decide if you want to spend the time and energy considering this.

[Stalwart]

Foxangle it was really good of you to respond in more detail and especially to 'fill in some of the blanks.' I know you're kind of looking for advice and direction but honestly, I think you already know that path.

I could focus in on 'flags' and I could also throw you all the judgmental adviced you could swallow but I really don't think it's appropriate or necessary.

I can see more in your post about recognizing and accepting your own responsibility in escalating a situation that confronted you and perhaps knowingly making it worse than it should have ever been. That IS NOT meant to be critical or condemning - it isn't. We've all probably at one time been in your exact position and yup, the personal stress and feelings of anger and 'revenge' we allow our own perceptions and ego to rise to can be really damaging when WE are the ones with the stability and rational to actually affect better reactions and control situations in a more positive way to help control outcomes.

On the whole it sounds as though your husband can actually perform on a really good level considering the possibility of this disorder being a mitigating factor. I'm really happy you recognize that and also seem to value that.

If you could do it over again foxangle would you have reacted along the way in the same manner and had him charged or given a second chance (which isn't possible) would you have handled the entire situation in a different way? I know hindsight and being able to remove your own negative reactions is great but how would you have changed that night or days and nights to follow it if you could?

By the way, just off the cuff I see so much more hopeful in your comments about your husband, his family and your possibilities in your relationship with him than I do negative - given the gravity of what seems a very severe situation he is facing and you are trying to cope with as well. The court systems here are extremely difficult and stressful to traverse in domestic situations - I think they're frightening everywhere, particularly when the outcomes so substantially affects a person going forward. It is scary and grey. I've never been on the wrong side of a situation dealing with courts and police but I"ve been there a few times supporting my spouse, not for validation of her actions, but in confirmation of the fact I'm simply there beside her and not going anywhere as a result of the actions she took.

It would really be interesting to read a quick rewrite of the incident if you had the ability to change the night or situation and what that would be in your thoughts and wants. That will answer the dilemma and questions you're considering I think.

Fact is foxangle; we can suggest until the cows come home, but you already know what's right and wrong for your situation and just need to solidify it into actions. I think it's equally true that only you really know all the nuances and interactions leading to, during and following the night so really, only you can know the answer that's best for you, and if his welfare and the future of your relationship together in this is also your concern.

Hoping to hear from you again.

Just wondering?

Rick

[foxangel82]

I don't want too get too deep into the details but yes the case is over.

Oh... .so... .if it's over... .why does he still have hearings?  That doesn't sound over.  In my line of work... .I have heavy involvement with court system.  None of this sounds even close to being "over"... .which is why I am asking questions... .there may be something I am missing.

  assuming he follows all the court orders

Is it a good idea to make assumptions?  The court system seems to be using time for him to "prove" his good intentions.  Very similar to the advice you are getting here.

Again, I have been told I do not need to testify.

This is what confuses me... .if it's over... .then there are no more things to be involved with or testify... .yet he still has hearings. 

What happens if they call you up and say something has changed... .and you need to testify?  Again... .I see changes in witness plans... .all the time.

I AM ALLOWED TO TALK TO HIM.  HE IS ALLOWED TO TALK TO ME. 

So... .why did the one T think you were not allowed?  Why does he think he is not allowed? 

I still don't think I see a clear answer.  My question is about the people that are treating him... .that are part of his mental health support team.  This team is for him.  Do they want you guys communicating?  How do you know this information?

  he believes that the trial is still ongoing and keeps claiming he fears speaking will be considered witness tampering.

I'll be honest... .I've read nothing here... .NOTHING... .that clearly leads me to believe that he is wrong.  This is about him... .not you.  He is the one "on trial" and has a lot to loose.  It sounds like his lawyer has given him good advice.  I would let him follow his lawyers advice... .

  This makes me suspect he is not in frequent contact with his lawyer... .an agreement with his lawyer was only reached on 1/16/15 so maybe he wasn't told about it yet.

Has the judge and the rest of the system "signed off" on this agreement?

make him happy 

Is this a phrase that you commonly use?  What do you think of waveriders comments?

 

He is not asking me for any money.  He mentioned that he can't afford to go to a conference in February since he owes so much to the hospital and lawyer that he hired.

Good... I'm glad he hasn't asked.  With everything else going on... .best to drop the answer.  If he wants you to consider this... .he will clearly ask.  At that point you can decide if you want to spend the time and energy considering this.

My understanding is his hearing is to officially accept the terms of the FUA.  These terms are that he 1. get a mental health evaluation 2. Get a substance abuse evaluation (including random drug tests I believe) 3. Complete a batterers prevention program that lasts about 6 months and 4. Receive probation for 1 year.  As I know it this is a formality and everything was already agreed to in previous emails with his defense attorney.  There are no "take backsies".  I have already asked this of the state attorney.  Fromflier it doesn't sound like you understand the court system in my state.

Here is the exact emails from the state attorney:

EMAIL 1

Great news: I just heard from the defense attorney and we have a deal. So you do not need to come to Court on Feb. 6th. The case is resolved. Thank you so much for your patience throughout these proceedings. If there is anything else we can do, please let me know.


EMAIL 2

Mr. Foxangel82 is required to appear in JDR[juvenile and domestic relations] on Feb. 6th for the plea agreement. The case has not been removed from the docket.

·         If he is compliant in Jan. 2016, the charge will be dismissed. If he is not compliant, then he will be found guilty of the Dom. A&B. At that point, he has 10 days to note his appeal. So, technically, if he does that, there could be a trial in Circuit Court. Although this is unlikely.

·         Talking to a victim or witness is not considered witness-tampering; even if it is talking about the offense. Witness tampering means that he is influencing you or telling you what to say in court

·         You are not required to have contact with the victim/ witness program. It is there to assist or aid you in the court process/ civil protective order process. So, if you don’t want their services, you don’t need to do anything to effectuate that.

·         This agreement won’t be revoked by the Commonwealth. You don’t have the ability to revoke this agreement. He might be found in violation if he is not-compliant, but that is not the same as the agreement being revoked. I cannot take this agreement away or revoke it at this point. Now, he could be held in violation if he commits a new criminal offense, such as a domestic A&B, or fails to comply with probation or his court ordered treatment. But that is something he should discuss with his lawyer.



I hope the above will help clear things up...

I will say that I DID NOT escalate anything the night he attacked me.  I think some readers are misunderstanding the timeline of events, but I agree it's complicated.  Really I was just standing there and he came in the door and beat me up and called me names.  There was no fight before or during.  I didn't even harm him in self-defense.  I tried my best to be forgiving that night and afterwards.  That all happened on 10/2/14.

What made me press charges on 11/30/14 was him smashing his head into the car window on purpose after our couples counseling session.  He had already gone to a 2 week mental health program and been getting weekly counseling sessions (from a different T) at that point.  I was shocked that he was not learning better "coping skills". 

I got the protective order on 11/30/14 not because I was angry or wanted revenge but because I was scared.  Likewise, getting the protective order seemed to necessitate describing the previous incident on 10/2/14 and I don't think the police would have approved the protective order if I did not press charges for the attack on 10/2/14.  Part of the reason I took legal action was because of talking to my mom on the phone that day while waiting in the ER. 

I'm not sure what would have happened on 11/30/14 if I just took him home.  He needed to have his head checked out at the ER anyway.  I don't know what I should have done differently.  Maybe not press charges, not gotten the protective order?  I wouldn't have done anything differently on 10/2/14 other than maybe go with him to the concert that night.  If I went I probably could have convinced him to go home earlier or not drink so much.

My last T thought maybe his attack was an act of "transference", as if attacking me would recreate his abuse with his mother and lead to a different outcome in his mind.  I don't know much about this idea and am not an expert in psychology.  I'm not sure if he was hoping to provoke me into fighting him (physically or verbally) but that's not what I do.

"So... .why did the one T think you were not allowed?  Why does he think he is not allowed?

I still don't think I see a clear answer.  My question is about the people that are treating him... .that are part of his mental health support team.  This team is for him.  Do they want you guys communicating?  How do you know this information?"

Fromflier I think you are not catching on... .  This T I spoke to is the T he is seeing currently.  She IS his mental health support team.  If she didn't want us communicating I think she would have said that to me already instead of asking his permission if it was ok and suggesting we do couples counseling with her.

His T thinks we can't talk because that's what he said to her, but it's not true.  DO YOU SERIOUSLY WANT A COPY OF MY PROTECTIVE ORDER?  This is getting kind of silly... .I'm starting to feel invalidated here!

Besides it can't be witness tampering if I'm no longer a witness for a trial.

I will be patient.  I think Grey Kitty had the best advice and I will offer financial help if he wants to reconcile although this seems a little manipulative.  It really comes down to the fact that I want to be fair to him and I feel like half of the wedding money belongs to him.  It's almost easier to give it to him now than wait for him to ask for it in a divorce. 

I don't believe giving him the money is something that I would do to "make him happy" but I do realize that a relationship takes 2 people and if he doesn't want to be with me any more then there's no sense fighting it.

There is cause for me to be optimistic about him because I consider him to be pretty high functioning and this is the first major incident after being together for 4 years.  He has pretty low self-esteem but I am hoping his therapist can help him work on that more. 

[Grey Kitty]

You didn't catch my advice the way I meant it. (Perhaps I was unclear)

I meant that *IF* you reconcile successfully with him. As in he's made it through the evaluations, gotten treatment, and made a lot of progress, and your r/s is going forward well... .and I don't see this possible that quickly--I see this being months from now.

Only after that has worked well would I suggest you think about offering him money to deal with this. Besides, you said that a lot of it is medical bills... .and if he doesn't have enough money, he could likely make partial payment arrangements, and stretch it out longer.

I think if you mention money as a possibility to him now, it could be manipulative, as you said... .and might motivate him to try really hard to "look good" for you, more than he is ready or committed for.

[foxangel82]

You didn't catch my advice the way I meant it. (Perhaps I was unclear)

I meant that *IF* you reconcile successfully with him. As in he's made it through the evaluations, gotten treatment, and made a lot of progress, and your r/s is going forward well... .and I don't see this possible that quickly--I see this being months from now.

Only after that has worked well would I suggest you think about offering him money to deal with this. Besides, you said that a lot of it is medical bills... .and if he doesn't have enough money, he could likely make partial payment arrangements, and stretch it out longer.

I think if you mention money as a possibility to him now, it could be manipulative, as you said... .and might motivate him to try really hard to "look good" for you, more than he is ready or committed for.

I was probably unclear, but yes I still agree with you. I understand that a reconciliation would take months. 

I won't tell him I am considering giving him money either.  Most of his expenses at this point are the lawyer's fees (about $2,500) and I'm sure that those will continue to increase for a little while, or at least until after his hearing in Feb.

I'll see where this all goes...

Even if his T won't see me individually I asked her to recommend others that I can see.

He seems to know that he has a mental illness at this point, but it's unclear to me if they have told him whether he has more than just depression and anxiety.

[foxangel82]

Looks like I'm being too aggressive in pursuing him. He called me at work for the first time in months (everything else has been emails and texts), said "it's over" and hung up. Yesterday he texted me asking if I thought either of us owed the other money or property.  This makes me think he's putting together a separation agreement. I haven't answered yet.

I saw he unfriended me on facebook (something he told me he never does). It makes me pretty sad, but at the same time I can't force him to stay. It's not worth my effort if his foot is already out the door.  It hurts that he can alienate me from my friends and forget about the 4 years we had together so quickly.

He messaged me last week curious about how I knew he was dating other people. I responded that he no longer says we are married on Facebook. I think he needs to learn for himself that the grass isn't always greener.

His therapist will probably email me the news tomorrow and I'm just dreading it. I asked her to recommend other T if she can't see me, but I was really hoping to learn what I did wrong.

I'll also respond to her that I didn't mean to force him to make a decision about us or stress him out. I'm fine with him dating other people for a while if that's what it takes to learn that we had a great relationship together. I think part of this goes back to him having a "midlife crisis" and feeling like he missed out on his 20's (he's 29).  I heard these episodes are common for people who are 29, 39, 49, 59, etc.

I still don't feel right trying to date other people right now. I just feel too old to play this game only to lose trust in people.

[waverider]

This is his choice

You did nothing wrong

If you had paid his expenses only to then have him walk, then how would you have felt?

[foxangel82]

This is his choice

You did nothing wrong

If you had paid his expenses only to then have him walk, then how would you have felt?

Indeed it is his decision. I told myself that this was a possible outcome. It is almost better now that his actions align better with his words.

I have not answered him yet on whether we owe each other money. I am still considering giving him his fair share of it. I am curious if he expects I owe him something or not.  I have already given him most of his belongings per his request. I love him and think it's better to kill him with kindness even if he's painting me black.

I think any costs associated with divorce should be paid by him if that's what he really wants to do.

[waverider]

. I am curious if he expects I owe him something or not. 

Ask him

[Grey Kitty]

I have a negotiating tip for you, in general: The first person to name a price usually loses.

So don't respond to his request about who owes who what.

Do think about it. Does he owe you anything? Do you owe him anything? Are there any shared assets or shared debts?

Another reason to not say anything... .when a pwBPD threatens to leave you, it doesn't mean as much to them as when you threaten to leave them... .or if you just act like you believe their threat. If you are thinking of reconciling with him still, no need for that provocation.

The costs of a low-conflict divorce are likely paid by the person more in a hurry to be legally unencumbered by the other... .for whatever reason.

How are you holding up?

[formflier]

  but I was really hoping to learn what I did wrong. 

You did nothing wrong... .

And you don't owe him an answer... .or communication... .especially with the communication tactics he is using.

Might be best to let him know that you are ready to discuss the status of the r/s... .when he is ready to "talk properly" about it. 

Hang in there... .you didn't do anything wrong.

What can you do to focus on you... .in the next couple of days... .?

[foxangel82]

  but I was really hoping to learn what I did wrong. 

You did nothing wrong... .

And you don't owe him an answer... .or communication... .especially with the communication tactics he is using.

Might be best to let him know that you are ready to discuss the status of the r/s... .when he is ready to "talk properly" about it. 

Hang in there... .you didn't do anything wrong.

What can you do to focus on you... .in the next couple of days... .?

I do feel like I have made mistakes. He has a tendency to take people at their word even when they are upset/angry, so I know I said some things I shouldn't have.

When I first talked to his T I said he thought I was abusive to him. He was leaving pamphlets about being in an abusive relationship lying around and acting like I was angry with him when I wasn't back in the fall. He said he felt like he had to walk on eggshells around me. I wanted to hash out if there's any truth to it. I do admit I was trying to keep him from going to parties with drinking to help him stay sober. I also wanted to keep him from hanging out with the friends who blamed me for the attack. I guess I forced him to choose between friends and me and I lost.

I'm not as depressed now as I was before when I first got the protective order. Then I would cry for days. I only felt relief by deciding to let him choose the fate of the relationship. Maybe this is all a blessing in disguise. I know I can find someone better than him the problem is being able to ever trust a man again.

I am going to Washington DC this weekend and I've been eating out a lot this week (it's restaurant week in my town). I've been catching up on movies and I'm trying to make plans to do more social things.

I am still friends with his sister on Facebook and I can see that she is the top visitor to my home page. I'm not sure if I should unfriend her or not. I'm sure she will probably tell him what I do.

I try to refrain from being impulsive since I think it will lead to regrets and irrational decisions. Part of me wants to reply "you owe me a trillion dollars" since he used to joke he was a trillion dollar bill (as in he was worthless but I believed he was priceless-he has accused me of putting him on a pedestool but I know he has flaws too). Otherwise I don't think I'll answer until at least after his hearing on feb 6. I agree with grey kitty that he should man up and talk to me about the relationship. Maybe he fears seeing me will be painful. His previous texts said he wouldn't make emotional gestures or statements until the criminal matter was settled. This is confusing because he hasn't had his hearing yet, so he probably would think it's not settled. Maybe he was just saying that as an excuse to avoid talking to me.

I see he's still struggling to find a replacement for me and signed up for multiple dating apps and websites. Who knows maybe he will start looking at men. I think he just wants someone to be aggressive and make the moves on him like I did, but most girls will play games.

I can't imagine his T trying to convince him to reconcile or work out his feelings. I can't remember how stubborn he is and if he'll look foolish to himself if he changes his mind. I feel like I have just a 5% chance with him at this point.

[foxangel82]

I have a negotiating tip for you, in general: The first person to name a price usually loses.

So don't respond to his request about who owes who what.

Do think about it. Does he owe you anything? Do you owe him anything? Are there any shared assets or shared debts?

Another reason to not say anything... .when a pwBPD threatens to leave you, it doesn't mean as much to them as when you threaten to leave them... .or if you just act like you believe their threat. If you are thinking of reconciling with him still, no need for that provocation.

The costs of a low-conflict divorce are likely paid by the person more in a hurry to be legally unencumbered by the other... .for whatever reason.

How are you holding up?

At this point I am still trying to decide if I should just roll over and submit to a no fault divorce if he wants one or try to argue fault based grounds (cruelty and adultery). If I go no fault everything can probably be finished in less than 6 months since we have no kids and not much property. I just don't know whether divorce records are public information or not. If so, I want to think more about using it to warn other women. Maybe it's not worth the hassle and costs.

In some ways I feel like the legal system is failing women. There's no easy way to check if someone is married or has a violent past.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

  You sound like you are all over the map. 

My only recommendation right now is to minimize contact if you can--don't contact him, don't look at his facebook, etc.

Give yourself a little quiet time away from him to sort out some of your own feelings.

You don't have to DO anything today or tomorrow, or even next week about this whole mess.

I hope you have a good weekend!

[formflier]

 

Whatever you can do... .to stop "imagining" what he or his T will recommend... .or do... or ask and focus on almost anything else... .is good.

Focus on what you can do to be a healthier you... .

going out to eat is good.  Finding friends to go with is better... .

Do you have books that you like to read?  A project you have been meaning to start?

[foxangel82]

Whatever you can do... .to stop "imagining" what he or his T will recommend... .or do... or ask and focus on almost anything else... .is good.

Focus on what you can do to be a healthier you... .

going out to eat is good.  Finding friends to go with is better... .

Do you have books that you like to read?  A project you have been meaning to start?

I tried to make plans with friends to join me in DC but they were visiting their folks in another state and I guess it's the super bowl which I don't care about.  I was going to try to go out to a dance club tonight, but I've lost the desire since it's so cold out.

I'm not stalking him on facebook.  I just don't know if I should unfriend his sister so that he can't stalk me.  I'm pretty much taking the high road and not bashing him on facebook and other places, but it's very tempting to expose the truth about him. Yet, I know any attempt to do that will just make me look like the crazy ex so there's no point and it won't help me move on.

I don't send him emails, texts or messages and I haven't responded to his last message about owing each other property/money.

I'm not trying to do anything in a hurry.  It seems like he's in a rush to make a decision to end it. 

I've made a list of pros/cons about H.  I need to stay positive about his decision to leave by reminding myself of all the phrases that start with "H will never... ."  Like H will never be able to comfort me emotionally when I am upset.  Seeing me upset dysregulates him and I end up turning around and comforting him--something he admits happens.

I'm doing some organization stuff at home that I've been putting off but it's pretty dull so there's not much motivation to do it.  I've made myself a little bucket list of things to do with the rest of my life to keep me motivated to keep living.  I feel like the honest truth is if I don't have a husband or kids 10 years from now I will probably kill myself.

I'm reading books but they are all about loving someone with BPD.  I've been catching up on watching movies.  I take long runs outside when the weather is nice which doesn't really help because it just leads me to think about things. 

Everyday I write about my thoughts and feelings since the start of all the stuff that went down in the fall and I will probably turn it all into a book one day.

[foxangel82]

So it's been a while, and I figured I should post an update.

I never heard back from his therapist.  This seems unprofessional.  She said she would reply and recommend other therapists if my husband did not consent to reconciling.

After he called me at work on January 26th to tell me it was over I felt like I probably wouldn't hear from her.

Earlier this week I set up 2 consultations with therapists that have some experience with BPD.  I want to go more for myself at this point than to deal with my relationship issues.  Like to gain perspective and see the forest instead of the trees.

It was hard because our wedding anniversary was just a few days ago.  I'm at the point where I am leaving what happens up to him.  I feel like I could be happy with him and I could be happy without him.

I sent him a book as a gift on January 23 (the anniversary of our first date).  It was a book he had on his amazon wish list and it was sent with a gift message.  There was back and forth between us over it. He wanted me to take the book.  I said it was a gift.  Eventually he left it on my doorstep one night (over the weekend of Feb 1) along with photos and photo magnets of us.  To me that really meant that he was moving on and trying to forget our relationship.

I received an email and another text from him asking whether either of us owed the other money or property.  I have not replied to him.  For the most part I have given him all the property he's asked for (and more).  I have consistently dropped off his mail at his new address (without meeting him face to face).  There are maybe only a couple things of his that I still have -a bookcase, plastic drawers, and some plastic crates.  He has not mentioned these things and I'm not sure if he even wants them, but if he does I am willing to give them to him.

I could see him thinking I might possibly owe him money as I stately previously.  I am willing to give him money, I don't care.  I could also argue that he owes me money since he has used my flexible spending account and I will be responsible for the charges if I am audited and don't have the receipts to back it up.

He called me on 2/13/15, but I didn't answer because I figured it would be the same message that he'd been leaving me about sorting out money/property.  And I want to be able to think through my responses carefully.  My stomach churns when I see him calling.

He sounded nervous and upset on the phone his message word for word was:

Hi foxangel82, this is Mr. Foxangel82.  Um, I want to apologize for calling you at work about a couple weeks ago. Um, yeah.  Uh, I, yeah I can try to find excuses, but either way I feel like it was inconsiderate towards you and um, I've been thinking about it must have been terrible for you to hear that at work.  Um, so I just want to apologize, sorry for that.  Um, but I do want to talk to you about some things.  Um. It would be good if you could, um message me back with a time, which, um, which I can, that we can meet uh with, hmm with um, possibly mediating through um, my therapist, um yeah, so, it would be good if you could leave me your availability so that I could arrange some sort of meeting with you, me and my therapist for mediation.  Alright, bye.

So I'm a little perplexed.  On the one hand, I'm glad he's apologizing and I wonder if this came about from his therapy sessions.  On the other hand he doesn't say that he wants me back or that he's sorry for other things that he's done.  Another plus is that he's trying to meet with his therapist instead of his lawyer, but it could just be the therapist is cheaper.  If he wants something from me or feels like I owe him money or property why doesn't he just say so?

Part of me feels like this meeting will be a trap.  I feel like I'm bringing a stick to a gunfight.  Maybe he will just use it to lure me there and serve me with divorce papers or a separation agreement.  I shouldn't get my hopes up.  It could be he's just going to run me through the gauntlet and give a laundry list of things I've done wrong.  

It could be he will just use me as his 9th step out of 12 (Make direct amends to people you have harmed wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others).  This doesn't seem as plausible since he appears to have taken up drinking again.

It bothers me that his therapist isn't reaching out.  I am concerned that he didn't clear this mediation with her first.  My plan is to contact her via email (we've already been emailing in the past) and see what her availability is like and she can arrange something with him.

I think I should go to this meeting--avoiding it is probably just avoiding something that is inevitable and it will be good to have someone else there to referee.  

Would it be wise for me to ask if I can meet with her one on one beforehand?  I'm not sure how I will feel about meeting her for the first time during a mediation.

Does mediation just stand for working out the details of a divorce/separation or could it also mean reconciliation?

[Grey Kitty]

One of my best (and toughest!) supporters keeps asking me a question, and it seems to fit this time for you:

"Where are you in all of this?"

I hear lots about what he might be thinking, might want to do, might do to you, along with some about what his therapist is/isn't doing... .all valid concerns, but there is something bigger missing here.

What sort of reconciliation do you want, if any?

[foxangel82]

One of my best (and toughest!) supporters keeps asking me a question, and it seems to fit this time for you:

"Where are you in all of this?"

I hear lots about what he might be thinking, might want to do, might do to you, along with some about what his therapist is/isn't doing... .all valid concerns, but there is something bigger missing here.

What sort of reconciliation do you want, if any?

I guess I don't mention what I want because I feel like it will be dependent on what he does.

Ideally, I want to work things out with him and save our marriage. I feel like reaching out to his T makes this clear to him. 

Friends of his have reached out to me and talked to me, without me initiating contact with them. They are surprised to hear he is trying to date other people and throwing away our marriage. Of these 3 friends, one was going to speak to my H last week (his idea not mine), but I haven't heard back from him. I have told these friends I am pretty upset and want to fix things but if he wants to split up that's what we will do. 

A bird can't fly with just one wing. I can want to save the marriage but if he doesn't want to then it won't work.

I am logical and practical. I am open to different solutions. One being that if he wants to reconcile we should start out by dating, living apart and going to counseling apart and together. The more I see the less likely this seems to be what he wants.

On the other hand, I would be open to us each openly dating other people if he was still undecided. I think it would be best if this was fair and had a set timeline (maybe a few months) for making a decision.

I am nervous about seeing him. I know I still have feelings for him.

Part of my concern is how to react to what he will say. I remember reading that people with BPD interpret neutral faces as angry. I am stressing over how to react. If I cry I think he will dysregulate and it will upset him. If I'm neutral he will think I'm angry. Pretending to be happy is too fake. I know I can only control what I do.

[Grey Kitty]

I am nervous about seeing him. I know I still have feelings for him.

Part of my concern is how to react to what he will say. I remember reading that people with BPD interpret neutral faces as angry. I am stressing over how to react. If I cry I think he will dysregulate and it will upset him. If I'm neutral he will think I'm angry. Pretending to be happy is too fake. I know I can only control what I do.

It would be safer to keep your communications with him in email rather than seeing him face to face. However you will get more connection and emotional impact (in both directions) face to face. It is a difficult choice to make. (And one I'm working through for myself right now!)

Trying to imagine the entire process of reconciling with him and figuring out what you think of that, based on what he might do is probably too much for you.

Instead, imagine just talking to him for half an hour about your relationship. Try to let go of your fears around how he would react to you. What are your feelings? What do you want out of that?

[foxangel82]

It would be safer to keep your communications with him in email rather than seeing him face to face. However you will get more connection and emotional impact (in both directions) face to face. It is a difficult choice to make. (And one I'm working through for myself right now!)

Trying to imagine the entire process of reconciling with him and figuring out what you think of that, based on what he might do is probably too much for you.

Instead, imagine just talking to him for half an hour about your relationship. Try to let go of your fears around how he would react to you. What are your feelings? What do you want out of that?

My feelings are that I am afraid. It's strange since I already have a good idea of what outcomes are possible from meeting him. I already know it's very likely that he wants to leave me but I fear hearing it confirmed.  Being in limbo is torture and comforting at the same time.

What I want is to be off the roller coaster and to be able to not have the need to over-analyze things like I'm in middle school. I want to know what he wants. I want to form a plan based on what he decides. I want to know if he still has feelings for me.  

I feel like if I let my imagination picture my perfect idea of reconciling the meeting will look nothing like that. Things won't work out that way. It's better for me to have low expectations and imagine the worst case of what will happen at the meeting.  The added benefit is I won't be caught off guard. I'm expecting a flogging at this point and maybe I deserve it. I have a lot of restraint and I will need to keep myself from feeling defensive.

I think I should try to meet with my own T first to get advice, but our next session isn't until Friday morning.

[Grey Kitty]

   

Can you make a plan for what you want to do if his expressed feelings for you flap in the breeze, bouncing from idealization to ending things, and/or he continues to give you mixed messages?

I'm afraid his prior behavior points that direction perhaps more than the direction of cleanly ending it.

My biggest fear about my wife is that she come to me with half of what I need from her and I'll need to make that sort of tough choice.

[foxangel82]

 

Can you make a plan for what you want to do if his expressed feelings for you flap in the breeze, bouncing from idealization to ending things, and/or he continues to give you mixed messages?

I'm afraid his prior behavior points that direction perhaps more than the direction of cleanly ending it.

My biggest fear about my wife is that she come to me with half of what I need from her and I'll need to make that sort of tough choice.

Well, my plan was to let us have an open relationship until a deadline and then he would need to decide. I'm hoping his T will help keep him accountable to what he agrees to. In my mind they have already been planning what to address with me.

I am lucky that he is pretty good about listening and can be reasonable.  I'll be happy to drive in a separate car this time though. I think he almost needs a cool down period after the meeting which is something we didn't have when we did the couples counseling session on 11/30/14.

I guess I'm worried now that he will put the ball in my court and leave things up to me. I feel like my answer will be conditional. If he wants to reconcile then I am open to that.  If he agrees to reconcile I would want him to stop using dating websites and apps and to get tested for STDs. I would want him to share his mental health diagnosis with me. I would want him to let me meet with his T who can hopefully give me hands on training for dealing with him. Ideally she would keep his interaction with me in line. I would be fine only seeing each other in the presence of his T for a while if he needs that to trust me.

In terms of boundaries I wouldn't have sex with him until he was committed to me and gotten tested. If I catch him on dating websites after he says he's stopped using them then I would leave him. If he is physically violent again I would leave.

But at this point I'm not expecting him to agree to any of this.

[Grey Kitty]

Well, my plan was to let us have an open relationship until a deadline and then he would need to decide.

I really don't get this one. I don't remember you ever saying you wanted an open relationship or that you were ever considering one. (Disclosure: My disintegrating marriage has been an open marriage at times; I'm not strictly against such things--I thought you were!)

If you can't handle him seeing other people as part of his relationship with you, then don't give him a mixed message about it.

I don't know that giving him a deadline is going to be very helpful.

I *DO* think that giving yourself a deadline has a lot of potential--you just don't have to tell him about it. How long are you willing to wait in your current separated, uncommitted state before you are completely done with the marriage yourself?

In terms of boundaries I wouldn't have sex with him until he was committed to me and gotten tested. If I catch him on dating websites after he says he's stopped using them then I would leave him. If he is physically violent again I would leave.

All good boundaries on your part.

I guess I'm worried now that he will put the ball in my court and leave things up to me. I feel like my answer will be conditional. If he wants to reconcile then I am open to that.  If he agrees to reconcile I would want him to stop using dating websites and apps and to get tested for STDs. I would want him to share his mental health diagnosis with me. I would want him to let me meet with his T who can hopefully give me hands on training for dealing with him.

I don't recommend that you do any of this this way.

As for as dating sites/apps and STD testing, if he puts the ball in your court, state your boundary--that you require those things before you will have sex with him.  [Note on STD testing... .I did some googling... .it is hard to get a good answer, but getting tested a few couple weeks or months after last exposure is a good idea assuming there are no symptoms. So your best case scenario might involve protected sex with him for a while even after initial testing.]

I highly recommend you steer clear of his individual T. Insisting that he get therapy is one thing. Insisting that you get his diagnosis and talk to his therapist seems bad--it gets you way too involved in his mental health, and you are already way to involved. Your path to dealing with this well is getting less enmeshed with him, not more!

If you want hands-on T to help dealing with him, get your own T, and work with YOUR T on this. (And if YOUR T requests a session with him, worry about it then. Most likely it won't be needed.)

[waverider]

What I want is to be off the roller coaster and to be able to not have the need to over-analyze things like I'm in middle school. I want to know what he wants. I want to form a plan based on what he decides. I want to know if he still has feelings for me.  

You wont really know what he wants, because he doesn't.

You have to focus on knowing what you want.

He could tell you one thing now, and mean it, then in another month it may be something completely different

Such is the BPD rollercoaster, to step off you have to determine where your platform is.

To step off is a must, your choice is whether to stand by and watch him, and be there for him, or to step away as watching is making you dizzy.

[foxangel82]

Well, my plan was to let us have an open relationship until a deadline and then he would need to decide.

I really don't get this one. I don't remember you ever saying you wanted an open relationship or that you were ever considering one. (Disclosure: My disintegrating marriage has been an open marriage at times; I'm not strictly against such things--I thought you were!)

If you can't handle him seeing other people as part of his relationship with you, then don't give him a mixed message about it.

I don't know that giving him a deadline is going to be very helpful.

I *DO* think that giving yourself a deadline has a lot of potential--you just don't have to tell him about it. How long are you willing to wait in your current separated, uncommitted state before you are completely done with the marriage yourself?

In terms of boundaries I wouldn't have sex with him until he was committed to me and gotten tested. If I catch him on dating websites after he says he's stopped using them then I would leave him. If he is physically violent again I would leave.

All good boundaries on your part.

I guess I'm worried now that he will put the ball in my court and leave things up to me. I feel like my answer will be conditional. If he wants to reconcile then I am open to that.  If he agrees to reconcile I would want him to stop using dating websites and apps and to get tested for STDs. I would want him to share his mental health diagnosis with me. I would want him to let me meet with his T who can hopefully give me hands on training for dealing with him.

I don't recommend that you do any of this this way.

As for as dating sites/apps and STD testing, if he puts the ball in your court, state your boundary--that you require those things before you will have sex with him.  [Note on STD testing... .I did some googling... .it is hard to get a good answer, but getting tested a few couple weeks or months after last exposure is a good idea assuming there are no symptoms. So your best case scenario might involve protected sex with him for a while even after initial testing.]

I highly recommend you steer clear of his individual T. Insisting that he get therapy is one thing. Insisting that you get his diagnosis and talk to his therapist seems bad--it gets you way too involved in his mental health, and you are already way to involved. Your path to dealing with this well is getting less enmeshed with him, not more!

If you want hands-on T to help dealing with him, get your own T, and work with YOUR T on this. (And if YOUR T requests a session with him, worry about it then. Most likely it won't be needed.)

Well I don't want an open relationship.  He seems to think he can find some replacement for me (as if I was the problem).  We had something good together.  If he needs to try to date other people to figure that out then so be it. If I know that's what he's doing I'm fine with it.

What I DON'T like is not being honest with each other about it.  It would be one thing if we both knew that we were in an open relationship, but this was never discussed.  He just assumed it was over and couldn't wait to get on with his life.  We're talking, protective order filed Nov 30 and Dec 2 he's already online looking to date other women.  The cavalier nature of it is what bothers me.

The problem is, I told him I never would leave him and I meant it.  If he wants out of this relationship I want it to be his decision and for him to make the moves to leave me.

You asked me what I wanted out of the reconciliation. I want him to stop dating other women, that's my answer.

He has seen a few different therapists at this point. I keep wishing one of them had told me at one point that he had this disorder and it would have changed my entire approach to the relationship.  I guess the best thing to do is act like he has it regardless of whether anyone will admit it to me.  I am seeing my own T and he has worked with people with BPD so I'm sure he can help me learn more of the tools and techniques.  At this point it may be useless to learn anyway.

I am not involved at all in his mental health at this point.  What I want is to see a couples counselor to deal with our issues.  His T said previously she would work with us.  I don't see a problem with the 3 of us meeting together, in fact I think it is better to have a 3rd party there than for just the 2 of us to meet.  Ideally that 3rd party would be neutral, but I can't be picky at this point.  Avoiding meeting him is probably just delaying the inevitable.

[Grey Kitty]

The problem is, I told him I never would leave him and I meant it.  If he wants out of this relationship I want it to be his decision and for him to make the moves to leave me.

He has three choices:

1. Reconcile with you in some way that works for you.

2. Leave you in some clear fashion.

3. Jerk you around, dating other women, while still technically married to you.

You have no control over what he chooses. Your description sounds a lot like #3.

You have choices right now:

A. Change your mind and decide to leave him.

B. Wait for him to get tired of his choice #3.

[foxangel82]

The problem is, I told him I never would leave him and I meant it.  If he wants out of this relationship I want it to be his decision and for him to make the moves to leave me.

He has three choices:

1. Reconcile with you in some way that works for you.

2. Leave you in some clear fashion.

3. Jerk you around, dating other women, while still technically married to you.

You have no control over what he chooses. Your description sounds a lot like #3.

You have choices right now:

A. Change your mind and decide to leave him.

B. Wait for him to get tired of his choice #3.

Yup already concluded we are going with 3 & B. I'm just viewing this as a big extinction burst for him.

I emailed his T the following:

"First, I want to thank you for working with H.  I am happy he is getting the help he needs and trust that you will take good care of him.  I hope that reaching out  did not cause any distress for him.  I did not intend to put pressure on him to make a decision about our relationship right away.

I didn't see a reply from you.  I assumed that meant that H declined giving permission for us to meet based on the conflict of interest.  I received a message from him on Friday stating he wanted to set up mediation with you and me.  Is this something he has already discussed with you?  I  can't understand why he wants to meet if he has already called to tell me it's over.

I am not angry with him and I have forgiven him.  I miss him and I want him to be happy."

Apparently her reply to me below is very telling.


"I am not sure what H would like to do at this point. I can discuss this with him again and see if he can offer a direction soon. Yes, there is a conflict of interest if he does not wish to work on the relationship with you. If he does not want to work on things with you and H, and you still wish to have therapy, I would recommend (therapist name). I am sorry to not be able to give you a more definitive answer, do you know if H is talking about mediation for a separation or for a reconciliation? It is a confusing situation for you I am sure. You may need to be making your decisions independent of his. I will try to get back to you by the end of the week or early next week. I do wish you the best in all of this situation.

Thank you

T"

I replied to her that H did not state the purpose of the mediation and I had found another T but if things didn't work out I would look into her recommendation.

She emailed me again this morning saying I should make a choice independent of H. I feel like I have already made my choice, but it takes 2 to tango.   She makes it seem like she broached it with him once already if she says she will discuss it with him "again".

Oh wel.  More waiting I guess. Maybe he just had a moment of weakness on Friday. I think based on his behavior he's not ready to talk. He's pursuing girls more than ever, back to drinking "sometimes" and taken up smoking pot. I asked the state attorney if he needs to take drug tests as part of his deal. 

I don't understand his urgency. We can file separate taxes. The only pressing issue is renewing the shared car insurance which is due in about a month. I actually make his costs go down when I'm on his policy even after adding an extra car. If he wants me to split the costs with him ($500/year) he should just say so. There's no need for mediation.

[Grey Kitty]

The problem is, I told him I never would leave him and I meant it.  If he wants out of this relationship I want it to be his decision and for him to make the moves to leave me.

He has three choices:

1. Reconcile with you in some way that works for you.

2. Leave you in some clear fashion.

3. Jerk you around, dating other women, while still technically married to you.

You have no control over what he chooses. Your description sounds a lot like #3.

You have choices right now:

A. Change your mind and decide to leave him.

B. Wait for him to get tired of his choice #3.

Yup already concluded we are going with 3 & B. I'm just viewing this as a big extinction burst for him.

Do you have a time limit on this state of things / extinction burst?

From personal experience... .the "waiting" part is a pretty sucky place to be in.

[foxangel82]

The problem is, I told him I never would leave him and I meant it.  If he wants out of this relationship I want it to be his decision and for him to make the moves to leave me.

He has three choices:

1. Reconcile with you in some way that works for you.

2. Leave you in some clear fashion.

3. Jerk you around, dating other women, while still technically married to you.

You have no control over what he chooses. Your description sounds a lot like #3.

You have choices right now:

A. Change your mind and decide to leave him.

B. Wait for him to get tired of his choice #3.

Yup already concluded we are going with 3 & B. I'm just viewing this as a big extinction burst for him.

Do you have a time limit on this state of things / extinction burst?

From personal experience... .the "waiting" part is a pretty sucky place to be in.

Yes, the waiting has been tough. I never did hear back from his T, but with her track record I'm not surprised.

He did finally email me on 2/24/15

"Hi fox angel,

Thank you for your prompt reply.

Can you release the last bank statements of the formerly joint accounts at BoA and the Credit Union. How do you propose that we divide the money up? If there was < $1000 in the The Credit Union account, then I'm fine with the status quo, but if there was more, we will need to work something out by e-mail. I am happy with the current division of the BoA account and would like to know if you are as well.

Then please let me know if there are any other outstanding property / financial issues, e.g. bills and rent or other debts. Once this is settled, I will send you a proposed separation agreement that will indicate that neither of us will seek to gain any further funds from the other. If there are no objections, I will sign two copies of such agreement, get them notarized, and then hand them to you to get signed and notarized. Then you can give me one copy back.

Unless you can think of a reason otherwise, we will be filing federal and state taxes separately for 2014."

I had to laugh when I read he was happy how the BoA account was divided. He took it all of course he's happy about it. So it sounds like he clearly wants a separation.  In another email he threatened to get a lawyer if I don't reply soon.

I'm overwhelmed with decisions.  I spoke to a lawyer and she made it seem like it's too hard to prove adultery and not worth the expense. It seems like most judges will just grant a no fault divorce.

I don't really think I can make too many plans until it's all settled. I can't really move until I know if I need to go to court. My T thinks I need to think about the future but it feels morally wrong to go on dates and be married.

I feel like my T thinks I'm a psychopath because I'm not getting very emotional about the things that are happening and what my H is saying about me online. But I know if I feed anger it will consume me and I cannot let this break me no matter how much it hurts. It's all a blessing in disguise.

If my H showed up tonight at my door begging to reconcile I don't know what I would do, but I know I would feel skeptical.

[Grey Kitty]

  Yep, the waiting is tough.

 Finding out that there is nothing to wait for is tough too.

My wife came by to collect her physical belongings from our boat on Wednesday, and while we were negotiating that, she told me clearly that she didn't want to reconcile.

We haven't done the financial division yet. I still do trust her (with joint money), however I'm trying to reduce the ways that I need to trust her. I'm not sure how wise it is, but I'm not ready to do something different today.

[Grey Kitty]

Oh yeah... .regarding the separation agreement/divorce options/etc.

Suggestion #1: Post on the legal board, not the staying board--you will get some good practical answers there.

About the money he took out of the joint account... .a couple practical questions:

1. Is it enough money to worry about / chase after? If you have to use a lawyer that is gonna run you something ($500~5000?) If the legal costs will exceed what you are getting, it seems like a lot of stress and pain for nothing good.

2. Does he even have the money / ability to pay you? Getting a legal judgement that he has to return money to you... .which he doesn't have... .will leave you dangling waiting for it for years. Or perhaps more court costs to get his wages garnished, or something... .that sort of thing sounds painful and drawn out and ugly.

Answers to either of these may well point to getting it over with more quickly, even if it is unfair.

[waverider]

Sorry to hear you are going through this Foxangel

You may want to look at the following boards for advice in these matters

Leaving: Detaching from the Wounds of a failed BPD Relationship

Family law, divorce, and custody

Hopeful this will help to deal with closure.

Do not underestimate the level of grief you will be feeling, this can come at anytime especially as your emotions are frozen at the moment. The Leaving vboard is a good place to discuss this aspect

Best of Luck

Waverider

[Cat Familiar]

Really good suggestions, Grey Kitty. When I was going through my divorce, I thought all our financial matters were settled after I ended up paying $17,000 on a credit card for expenses he had incurred. I was really pi$$ed off when I discovered there were more later. It left a really bad taste in my mouth when my attorney told me that it would be less expensive to just pay the balance instead of fighting it. But, he was absolutely right. It was so worth it to be done for good with my ex.

And Grey Kitty, I'm so sorry about how things have transpired between you and your wife.    You tried your best. And when you're ready, you'll be a great catch for some lucky woman out there. 

[foxangel82]

Really good suggestions, Grey Kitty. When I was going through my divorce, I thought all our financial matters were settled after I ended up paying $17,000 on a credit card for expenses he had incurred. I was really pi$$ed off when I discovered there were more later. It left a really bad taste in my mouth when my attorney told me that it would be less expensive to just pay the balance instead of fighting it. But, he was absolutely right. It was so worth it to be done for good with my ex.

And Grey Kitty, I'm so sorry about how things have transpired between you and your wife.    You tried your best. And when you're ready, you'll be a great catch for some lucky woman out there. 

I wouldn't fight him on the money, I had even considered giving him more.  I don't really care about it.

I am blessed that we don't have any children or a house or other joint property.

I don't have any grieving left to do since I had already reached the "acceptance" phase back in mid-December.  I had to prepare myself to be ok with whatever the outcome will be.

Grey Kitty, I'm sorry to hear about the turn of events in your life.  Just be careful, I too considered my H would be reasonable since we always communicated so well together.  Don't downplay their impulsive nature I guess.

[Turkish]

This thread has reached its posting limit. Please feel free to continue the discussion on the applicable boards.

Turkish