Should I let him pay for his own mistakes?

[foxangel82]

My BPD husband is getting off pretty easy for his assault on me at the end of November. I am happy with the outcome and want to reconcile with him even though we are currently separated. He hired a defense attorney even though the case never went to trial.

The day I pressed charges he was admitted to the psych ward and stayed there for a few days.

His T says he misses me terribly and is open to couples counseling which makes me happy. He has been getting a lot of therapy and will likely continue to for some time.

My question is about whether I should help him. He has told me he now owes thousands of dollars in legal and medical fees. If I were in his position I know I would appreciate any help. However, I don't want to enable him or seem to say that I am to blame for this so I should pay.

We both work and I do not struggle financially. I still have thousands of dollars in cash that his family gave us for our recent wedding. But he also took all of the money from our joint bank account ($2,200) which covers about half of his costs. Should I extend some of the wedding cash to him since half is technically his?  Is it better to make him pay for his mistakes so to speak?  It seems complicated if I want to remain married and think of this from an "us" perspective.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

In effect he crossed a boundary. You did what you did to protect your boundary. The consequences of that are his as part of complying with that boundary.

Two aspects

~Will he fully owned his part in this if you share the consequence

~How will you feel if he slides and it is not all "fixed" and you have bailed him out, will you feel cheated?

It is tempting to believe lesson is learned. But it takes a long time to consolidate that.

[hope2727]

From my own experience I would say absolutely do not pay it. There are many reasons but the main one i that with all the meta analysis and long term longitudinal studies it appears that all treatment modalities for abusers have been found ineffective in the long term. So abusers appear well and healed and then slide back into the pattern of abuse. It is a cycle and is a deeply engrained part of their core values. I found this tremendously discouraging and sad. However I also found it to be true.

Waverider posts the most profound question about how you will feel if you pay and he relapses. I can tell you I felt foolish, betrayed, sad, mad, hurt, scared and stupid. Oh and broke, I felt broke.   It took my ex-husband tipping our family to the brink of bankruptcy to make me take a financial stand. And yes I made more money than him. He sucked every penny up over several years of reconciliations including 2 psychologists, his own personal therapy and marriage counselling. Abuse is a cycle and it has a huge relapse rate. It took a lot for me to learn. And what did I learn?   Words are cheap. Actions are valuable. Actions over the short term can be manipulated and controlled  but over the long term show one's true character. Oh yes and I learned we all have to lie in the beds we make. This is true of us on the receiving end too, no matter how uncomfortable that bed may be. I found it torturous to watch my ex husband struggle financially. Once, long after we split he thanked me for letting him fall. He said he needed to learn and I couldn't tell him. He had to experience it. Besides, how do you think the people who gifted you that money for your wedding will feel about having it pay for his abuse? I'd be outraged if it was a gift i'd given.

May I suggest that you sympathize that it is frustrating to have debt. Empathize that you hate having debts too. Then admire that he is so smart and capable you are sure he will find a way to make extra income and pay it off quickly. Then if you like set the same amount in a savings account labeled honeymoon account. Do NOT TELL HIM! Wait 2 years and if all is well take yourselves on a trip to celebrate your new healthier relationship.  If all in not well you have an emergency account. Remember paying his debt is like paying for him to have abused you. You should not be fined for your own abuse.

Abuse sucks. It is the ultimate violation of an intimate trust.  :'( I still struggle to wrap my head around both my ex husband and my ex fiancee. They were different and yet the same. Both lovely men whom I loved deeply. Both smart and insightful yet they are both abusers in very different ways.  I have had huge amounts of counselling and yet I still struggle to not be a target. Its so weird. I am so sorry you have to endure this. I can tell you are an amazing, strong person and will get through this. Meanwhile   I will post a few web sites that have helped me. Good luck and keep us posted.  

www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/cycle_of_abuse.html

www.abuseandrelationships.org/Content/Survivors/waiting_for_change.html

www.abuseandrelationships.org/Content/Survivors/going_back.html

www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/cycle_of_abuse.html

www.escapeabuse.com/?p=110

[Stalwart]

I can only speak from my own experience foxangle. Firstly I'd like to just say that I really feel for the predicament you're in. I'm certain it's not what you thought it was going to be but I can so understand and relate to the legal difficulties, financial commitments, and the entire situation you find yourself in.

It is my experience that nothing happens quickly, nor does it happen in a linear direction with someone with this disorder regardless of how committed they are to self-improvement. I can say this that I really am hopeful and happy that your spouse does recognize his illness, has a diagnosis he accepts and is committed to helping and changing himself.

I really think that's the key issue though foxangle and that's allowing him to 'help himself'. There is one thing I've certainly experienced through learning, changing myself and yes, trial and error developing my own appropriate listening skills and responses through the use of all the tools of the trade - you can't change him. You can assist him to help change himself through learning how to change the dynamics in your relationship but only he can change himself.

Tricky situation because you are both aware that it really is joint ownership of the money especially considering it came from his side of the family if I read that correctly. I really have no answers for you nor do I really like to suggest solutions because all too often we jump to conclusions when we really don't have enough information to even consider we deserve a judgment in other's situations at all. I do know if I were in the same situation, knowing my wife's real weakness is mismanagement of finances I would come to a compromise and offer to assist with installed payments and not a lump sum amount. That might seem a little manipulative or that you might seem to be trying to threaten his behavior or conduct but I doubt that's really the case. You can't control his take on it or his reality of the situation and what it is to him, you can only assure him of your intent and your reality on it.

Like I say foxangle you have a better understanding of how that would apply to your own situation than I would. Are his parents supportive of the situation and your part in the relationship with him? Maybe they could help out in the decision if they are and if they agree with you it would help validate your decision. I think we all know under the right (or wrong) circumstances that could be a loaded clip waiting to be fired if he feels as though everyone is 'ganging' up on him so finesse is the name of the game in any decision and probably will be for a long time to come.

I really, really hope you find a resolution to this immediate issue and hope so much that you both learn how to improve the dynamics. It seems you're newer in the relationship so now would be great before too much water goes under the bridge and heightens the problems exponentially.

Best of luck sweetheart and let us know how it progresses. Thanks for sharing.

Rick

[Cat Familiar]

My ex-husband began verbally abusing me early in our relationship. He escalated that to physical abuse. When I became afraid for my life, I ended our long marriage and I have never looked back.

Many years later, I saw his name in the newspaper when he was arrested for assaulting his new wife. Before he was arraigned on his charges, the two of them fled to another state. Currently there is an active arrest warrant for him and I've heard from his nephew that he fears returning to this state.

That said, perhaps if he had received consequences for his behavior early on, it might never have gotten this far.

I think by helping to pay for his bad behavior, you would indeed be enabling him. It doesn't matter that the money came from his family. You can put it in a savings account for the future and designate it for a positive use.

He really needs to feel the consequences of his actions. Being sorry is not enough.

[foxangel82]

I can only speak from my own experience foxangel. Firstly I'd like to just say that I really feel for the predicament you're in. I'm certain it's not what you thought it was going to be but I can so understand and relate to the legal difficulties, financial commitments, and the entire situation you find yourself in.

It is my experience that nothing happens quickly, nor does it happen in a linear direction with someone with this disorder regardless of how committed they are to self-improvement. I can say this that I really am hopeful and happy that your spouse does recognize his illness, has a diagnosis he accepts and is committed to helping and changing himself.

I really think that's the key issue though foxangel and that's allowing him to 'help himself'. There is one thing I've certainly experienced through learning, changing myself and yes, trial and error developing my own appropriate listening skills and responses through the use of all the tools of the trade - you can't change him. You can assist him to help change himself through learning how to change the dynamics in your relationship but only he can change himself.

Tricky situation because you are both aware that it really is joint ownership of the money especially considering it came from his side of the family if I read that correctly. I really have no answers for you nor do I really like to suggest solutions because all too often we jump to conclusions when we really don't have enough information to even consider we deserve a judgment in other's situations at all. I do know if I were in the same situation, knowing my wife's real weakness is mismanagement of finances I would come to a compromise and offer to assist with installed payments and not a lump sum amount. That might seem a little manipulative or that you might seem to be trying to threaten his behavior or conduct but I doubt that's really the case. You can't control his take on it or his reality of the situation and what it is to him, you can only assure him of your intent and your reality on it.

Like I say foxangel you have a better understanding of how that would apply to your own situation than I would. Are his parents supportive of the situation and your part in the relationship with him? Maybe they could help out in the decision if they are and if they agree with you it would help validate your decision. I think we all know under the right (or wrong) circumstances that could be a loaded clip waiting to be fired if he feels as though everyone is 'ganging' up on him so finesse is the name of the game in any decision and probably will be for a long time to come.

I really, really hope you find a resolution to this immediate issue and hope so much that you both learn how to improve the dynamics. It seems you're newer in the relationship so now would be great before too much water goes under the bridge and heightens the problems exponentially.

Best of luck sweetheart and let us know how it progresses. Thanks for sharing.

Rick

I'll start by saying in his defense he is not abusive.  I've looked at the checklists and talked to people at the women's shelter.  He is not a controlling person, he is not physically abusive other than that one time.  He has been verbally abusive only on a handful of occasions, which after so many years I would say is pretty normal-hey we all lose our cool sometimes.  He does not prevent me from being with friends or family or from spending money.  He is not a jealous person or a "macho man."  He's a feminist.  He did not rush into the relationship, I let him set the pace and we did things pretty slowly. We have always dealt fairly with each other and been honest. 

I should say that as far as I know he has not been diagnosed with BPD.  I don't know if his T decided this would be devastating news and decided not to share it or if they haven't considered it as a diagnosis. When we first met he did mention that his thinking can be "all or nothing", that he has "cognitive distortions", can be impulsive and has social anxiety.

I have come to realize that he would have harmed anyone that night if they were there.  I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  He was drunk at the time and seems committed to staying sober now.

I am fond of his dad, the day before he went to the psych ward I was pleading with H to be kinder to his dad.  When they are on the phone he is terse and acts annoyed.  I know his dad loves him but might not show it the way my H wants him to.  I said he should tell his dad if he wants verbal affirmations of love and that way he at least has a chance to change things.

My H's sister is younger, immature and a little weird/anti-social.  She tried to be my "therapist" after the attack occurred but I felt that she couldn't really emphasize with me.  She seems to accept that his tantrums are normal and to be expected.  He told me in the car after he broke the window with his head (right before I took him to the ER/psych ward) that his sister said there "was no hope for her (as in me) and that if she offers divorce H should just take it"  She has never had a romantic relationship to my knowledge so I don't think she understands that things take work, time and patience.

His parents have money and may have already given him a lump sum to cover these costs.  It's not clear to me at this point.

I asked him via text message if he blames me for what has happened.  He told me he would need to speak to his attorney before he can answer that.  I think that this is not my fault at all and if he does place the blame on me I would not extend the funds to him. 

He is telling me that he won't speak to me one on one or "reciprocate emotional statements" until after the court date on Feb 6.  He keeps saying he is afraid of being accused of witness tampering. However the court date is just a hearing where he will accept a "finding under assessment" and agree to get tests (substance abuse and mental health) and attend domestic violence classes.  It is not a trial (he will  not need to enter a plea), I will not attend it and I am not longer needed to testify.  I think he has a hard time understanding the legal system.  Maybe I will just need to see what he does in a couple more weeks.

I would not feel bad never seeing the money again.  I am not in desperate need of money and my income is probably twice that of his.  I have considered offering to pay for his counseling sessions.  Perhaps I just need to wait 2 weeks for him to decide what he wants to do.  His T is waiting to hear from him if she can take me as a client since there would be a conflict of interest.  The hope is that we would each receive individual counseling with her and then do couples therapy and reconcile. She will only take me as a client if he intends to do couples therapy.

I don't have fantasies of changing him.  I see my own mistakes in this.  In the 2 month gap between the attack and when I pressed charges I had hardened my heart out of the pain and hurt that I felt.  He tried to ask for forgiveness multiple times and to please me but I wanted even more groveling than he was willing to do.  When he would try to apologize as I wanted him to it that would cause him to become disregulated emotionally and lead to a tantrum.  Then he would avoid me because seeing me upset and sad reminded him of what he did.

I am afraid when/if he sees me he will be reminded of what he has done and feel overcome with guilt and feelings of being a "monster".

He is surrounded by many supportive people right now.  Many of which have stated that I deserved what happened.  I plan on seeing a new T and trying to pick apart the truth behind all this.  I am not sure what he has told these friends exactly.  I know that he did say he was going to use me as a scapegoat for teetotaling--as in he will claim that his wife doesn't want him to drink in order to avoid peer pressure to drink alcohol socially.  I am sure that this lie probably contributes to their assessment that I am controlling.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm very concerned with your repeated use of the word "tantrum" and the fact that the "supportive" people around him have stated that you "deserve what happened." Also that he has a history of being unkind to his father and that his sister "seems to accept that his tantrums are normal and to be expected."

You also state: "When he would try to apologize as I wanted him to it that would cause him to become disregulated emotionally and lead to a tantrum."

Sweetie, I am seeing red flags in so many places in your last post. Apparently he has a history of tantrums and his supportive people certainly don't seem to be supportive of you. I would think through this very carefully before you place yourself in a position of enabling him and letting him off the hook financially. It sounds like his family has a different impression of him than you do.

[formflier]

I asked him via text message if he blames me for what has happened.  He told me he would need to speak to his attorney before he can answer that.  I think that this is not my fault at all and if he does place the blame on me I would not extend the funds to him. 

Foxangel82,

Are you supposed to be in contact with him?  Do you know for sure that his lawyer and treatment are ok with you being in contact?  Might be separate answers for both.

Lots of stuff jumps out at me from your post... but this was most concerning.

This sounds like a traumatic situation... .it appears he is dealing with his end... .that is up to him to work on.  You can evaluate that later.

It's up to you to work on your end.  Please get with a T asap and start working through what has happened to you.

Please keep coming back here and posting/learning.

My hope is that you can learn emotionally healthy ways to relate... .  That is always a good thing!

[formflier]

Words are cheap. Actions are valuable. Actions over the short term can be manipulated and controlled  but over the long term show one's true character. 

Foxangle82,

Please focus on this statement... .keep coming back to this statement.

The future of your r/s (relationship) will be determined over a long time... .a long time where you observe the behavior of your SO.


Another reason to limit or restrict contact right now... .let him clean up his side of the street (so to speak)... .and let you clean up your side.

What do you think about this concept?

[waverider]

Be careful of not teaching him what you want him to say or do.

He must reach this point on his own initiative.

To change anyone's personality, even ours, it has to come from within, otherwise we take short cuts and role play.

[foxangel82]

I asked him via text message if he blames me for what has happened.  He told me he would need to speak to his attorney before he can answer that.  I think that this is not my fault at all and if he does place the blame on me I would not extend the funds to him. 

Foxangel82,

Are you supposed to be in contact with him?  Do you know for sure that his lawyer and treatment are ok with you being in contact?  Might be separate answers for both.

Lots of stuff jumps out at me from your post... but this was most concerning.

This sounds like a traumatic situation... .it appears he is dealing with his end... .that is up to him to work on.  You can evaluate that later.

It's up to you to work on your end.  Please get with a T asap and start working through what has happened to you.

Please keep coming back here and posting/learning.

My hope is that you can learn emotionally healthy ways to relate... .  That is always a good thing!

I already saw one therapist (an intern) for 7 sessions.  She had no prior experience with trauma/domestic violence or BPD. I would ask her how to apply SET and she had no idea what I was talking about and would just recommend websites.  Yet the websites she was recommending were ones I had already visited.  I am on my 3rd book about being with someone with BPD (I hate you don't leave me) and I have already finished (stop walking on eggshells and when hope is not enough).  What helped me most was the book "happiness is a serious problem" which is not even about BPD at all.  I feel like I have processed the trauma at this point and just want to move on and stop being the victim.

I have to think that if so many people are not afraid of him and have come to blame me then maybe I am part of the problem.  I think with the next T I want to focus on my entire life from the beginning until now and see how everything is connected.  What I really want is some role playing or reassurance that I have made the right choices in how I react to what has happened.

His sister is aware of his tantrums and had to face them herself in the past.  She blamed me for a very emotional phone call he had with her after I had wanted him to act sorry for what he had done.

As far as contacting him, the protective order permits us to speak to each other.  He is really just being paranoid or maybe he doesn't want to speak to me I don't know. We have been separated for nearly 2 months already.  Part of that time we were not speaking which was very difficult. 

It is hard to sum up everything on these boards and it does seem unfair to him that I am only sharing the bad things he has done.  He does feel lost sometimes about how to interact with people and would look to me for tips in the past on proper etiquette.  I think he had(and does?) want to make things up to me but neither of us is very sure about how to go about that.  I wanted him to stop being friends with the people that were unsupportive of me but maybe that's not the right thing to ask him to do.  There is a danger that I could become too controlling or unreasonable and so I want a T to guide us.

[formflier]

I already saw one therapist (an intern) for 7 sessions.  She had no prior experience with trauma/domestic violence or BPD. I would ask her how to apply SET and she had no idea what I was talking about and would just recommend websites.  Yet the websites she was recommending were ones I had already visited.  I am on my 3rd book about being with someone with BPD (I hate you don't leave me) and I have already finished (stop walking on eggshells and when hope is not enough).  What helped me most was the book "happiness is a serious problem" which is not even about BPD at all.  I feel like I have processed the trauma at this point and just want to move on and stop being the victim.

Please keep looking... .find someone with experience.  Someone that has experience helping people that have been traumatized in a r/s with a pwBPD. 

This T is for you... .NOT for the pwBPD

  However... they need to understand what you have been through. 

When is your appointment with a new T?

I have to think that if so many people are not afraid of him and have come to blame me then maybe I am part of the problem.

Why do you have to think this way?  Help me understand this... .

Listen... .you may... .or may not have issues that you need to work on.  (Hint:  Most of us do... .I do.  And I'm working on that.  Good mental health is not easy... it is hard work!)

You also may... .or may not... .be part of the problem  Please don't figure that out for yourself.  Work through that with an experienced therapist... .  Yes... .we all need to own "our part" of a relationship issue.  Figuring that out can take a while

  

As far as contacting him, the protective order permits us to speak to each other.  He is really just being paranoid or maybe he doesn't want to speak to me I don't know. We have been separated for nearly 2 months already.  Part of that time we were not speaking which was very difficult. 

I didn't see an answer to my question...

It appears he is getting some intensive treatment... .that is a big deal... .you want to support that in every way.  DO NOT listen to him about this.  Listen to his treatment team. 

What have they said about how much... .or how little... .or if at all... .you should be in contact.

Next issue:  He has a lawyer... it is an issue that involves you... .please respect that... .it will take time.

[foxangel82]

I already saw one therapist (an intern) for 7 sessions.  She had no prior experience with trauma/domestic violence or BPD. I would ask her how to apply SET and she had no idea what I was talking about and would just recommend websites.  Yet the websites she was recommending were ones I had already visited.  I am on my 3rd book about being with someone with BPD (I hate you don't leave me) and I have already finished (stop walking on eggshells and when hope is not enough).  What helped me most was the book "happiness is a serious problem" which is not even about BPD at all.  I feel like I have processed the trauma at this point and just want to move on and stop being the victim.

Please keep looking... .find someone with experience.  Someone that has experience helping people that have been traumatized in a r/s with a pwBPD. 

This T is for you... .NOT for the pwBPD

  However... they need to understand what you have been through. 

When is your appointment with a new T?

I have to think that if so many people are not afraid of him and have come to blame me then maybe I am part of the problem.

Why do you have to think this way?  Help me understand this... .

Listen... .you may... .or may not have issues that you need to work on.  (Hint:  Most of us do... .I do.  And I'm working on that.  Good mental health is not easy... it is hard work!)

You also may... .or may not... .be part of the problem  Please don't figure that out for yourself.  Work through that with an experienced therapist... .  Yes... .we all need to own "our part" of a relationship issue.  Figuring that out can take a while

  

As far as contacting him, the protective order permits us to speak to each other.  He is really just being paranoid or maybe he doesn't want to speak to me I don't know. We have been separated for nearly 2 months already.  Part of that time we were not speaking which was very difficult. 

I didn't see an answer to my question...

It appears he is getting some intensive treatment... .that is a big deal... .you want to support that in every way.  DO NOT listen to him about this.  Listen to his treatment team. 

What have they said about how much... .or how little... .or if at all... .you should be in contact.

Next issue:  He has a lawyer... it is an issue that involves you... .please respect that... .it will take time.

As I said already I am looking for a new T.  The last one could only see me for a limited number of sessions anyway.  This town is extremely difficult to find anyone.  Even the one I am talking to won't be able to see me until the second week of Feb and that is if he agrees that the conflict of interest is OK.  The therapist admits that he misses me terribly and thought that he was not allowed to contact me.  She does not think that me having contact with him is a bad thing and actually seems pleased to have a chance to reconcile us.  She says ultimately the choice is up to him if he wants to allow this and I respect that.  At this point I will do whatever will make him happy.  I love him but if he truly doesn't want a relationship with me then I can accept that.

I don't honestly think that I am to blame for him assaulting me, but I have made mistakes in the relationship (as everyone has I'm sure).  I am looking at everything with new eyes considering that I believe he has BPD.

I thought I mentioned in my previous posts that he had a lawyer because he assaulted me.  It really doesn't have to do with me.  It's to defend himself against the state's prosecutor.  However, at this stage the prosecutor has told me that the case is already resolved and my role in it is finished--I am not needed for any testimony.  His lawyer obviously has another motive to make him paranoid--if he remains worried he will need to contact his attorney before every move he makes, thereby racking up more expenses and fees. 

I have already spoken to a separate immigration lawyer about his situation and they (and the state prosecutor) agree there is no reason for him to worry about "witness tampering" at this point.

[formflier]

As I said already I am looking for a new T. 

Good... .when do you expect to have one?  Why is it hard to find a T in this town?  Maybe we can help brainstorm.

   The therapist admits that he misses me terribly and thought that he was not allowed to contact me.

So... please help me understand why you are communicating with him...

  actually seems pleased to have a chance to reconcile us.

Ts and Ps are professionals.  Focus on their "prescriptions" ... .please don't worry about what pleases or displeases them.

  At this point I will do whatever will make him happy.  I love him but if he truly doesn't want a relationship with me then I can accept that.

Please take some time to think through doing something to "make" someone else happy.  As a general statement... that is not a good plan... .not a wise plan... .most likely will not lead to an emotionally healthy relationship.

Specifically to this situation... .I think it is even more important to do what is wise for you to get you emotionally healthy.  Once his treatment team says he is back in good mental and emotional health... .let the professionals guide you on evaluating a possible reconciliation... .

I don't honestly think that I am to blame for him assaulting me,

Good... .  Who is to blame for him assaulting you?

I thought I mentioned in my previous posts that he had a lawyer because he assaulted me.  It really doesn't have to do with me. 

This confuses me... .how is it that the lawyer of the person that assaulted you... .has nothing to do with you?  I'm missing something.

I osecutor has told me that the case is already resolved and my role in it is finished--I am not needed for any testimony.  His lawyer obviously has another motive to make him paranoid--if he remains worried he will need to contact his attorney before every move he makes, thereby racking up more expenses and fees. 

Or the lawyer could be protecting his clientes best interests.  Not yours.  And... let's be clear.  Is the case over? 

[Grey Kitty]

I am happy with the outcome and want to reconcile with him even though we are currently separated.

My question is about whether I should help him. He has told me he now owes thousands of dollars in legal and medical fees.

If you do reconcile with him successfully... .and most of this discussion above relates to that, then consider helping him financially.

I don't see a good reason to give him money considering your current status.

I'd work on what it will take to reconcile, and whether you really want to first.

If he wouldn't reconcile with you unless you gave him money for this stuff, that doesn't seem very trustworthy.

[waverider]

"making him happy"... .pwBPD think in terms of their immediate needs.

Meeting immediate needs is not the healthy approach to anything.

You being strong and stable, and him permanently addressing his own problems to keep you both happy is what is best for you and him in the long run. However you can't make him play his part. You have to leave him to it and provide support and appreciation for his efforts as appropriate.

Commensurate rewards are not given until results are obtained and consolidated.

Do not give an advance on rewards based on good intentions, this can undermine his willpower, and he will need it all (and so will you).

[waverider]

As far as your responsibility for issues goes, any relationship is a dynamic of action/counter action and counter action to that counter action. We all play our part. Despite doing our best we wont get it ideal. You are learning now how to lesson your negative influence as best you can. That does not mean it was "your fault" before.

Dont think about fault, think about degree of influence. We can't avoid our influence, but we can become more aware of it and the part it plays. That is our part in our recovery.

[foxangel82]

I don't want too get too deep into the details but yes the case is over.  I have checked twice already with the state attorney.  He has a hearing on Feb 6 to accept the FUA, after 1 year probation assuming he follows all the court orders everything will be dismissed and he'll never have to plead guilty or innocent.  Some may think this is bad since he's not "admitting guilt" but it would be detrimental to his immigration status so I agree an FUA is the way to go.  Again, I have been told I do not need to testify.

I AM ALLOWED TO TALK TO HIM.  HE IS ALLOWED TO TALK TO ME.  Since December 19 our protective order has allowed contact and only prohibited violence/threats and damage to property.  I asked him if he was avoiding me because of the protective order and he said no, he believes that the trial is still ongoing and keeps claiming he fears speaking will be considered witness tampering.  This makes me suspect he is not in frequent contact with his lawyer... .an agreement with his lawyer was only reached on 1/16/15 so maybe he wasn't told about it yet.

If he decides I am not the best person to meet his needs to make him happy then I have come to accept that.  I don't think that's an unreasonable stance to take.

In my town, many T are "not taking new clients"  if there are any T out there this town probably needs you... .even the one I have contacted told me that before my call she told herself she wouldn't take any more but then she couldn't say no when I told her it was me.

Of course I blame the assault on him and to a smaller extent the guy that said racist things to him to get him so disregulated.

He is not asking me for any money.  He mentioned that he can't afford to go to a conference in February since he owes so much to the hospital and lawyer that he hired.

When I say that him having a lawyer for assaulting me has nothing to do with me it's because the case is not Foxangel82 vs. Husband.  The case is State vs. Husband.  I am merely a witness.  When I wanted to drop the case it didn't matter-I had no say.  In any case everything is settled he just has to formally accept the deal.  He told me he was worried it could get rescinded by me or the state attorney but I checked and again I don't have the power to do that and the state can't change their mind either.  He's just being paranoid.  The only way he could get in trouble would be with violating the protective order, which may be vague enough that he could fear being with me alone.  I would be willing to drop the protective order if I was able to get my own car insurance first (right now he needs to keep me on his policy).

I am being smart about this.  I do not expect to reconcile and have him move back in right away.  I think if we meet at counseling sessions with a third party that would be a good start. If things go well we can take the next step and date each other but still live apart.  Of course if I make these kinds of plans things probably won't work out... .I'll keep everyone posted about what happens.

[formflier]

I don't want too get too deep into the details but yes the case is over.

Oh... .so... .if it's over... .why does he still have hearings?  That doesn't sound over.  In my line of work... .I have heavy involvement with court system.  None of this sounds even close to being "over"... .which is why I am asking questions... .there may be something I am missing.

  assuming he follows all the court orders

Is it a good idea to make assumptions?  The court system seems to be using time for him to "prove" his good intentions.  Very similar to the advice you are getting here.

Again, I have been told I do not need to testify.

This is what confuses me... .if it's over... .then there are no more things to be involved with or testify... .yet he still has hearings. 

What happens if they call you up and say something has changed... .and you need to testify?  Again... .I see changes in witness plans... .all the time.

I AM ALLOWED TO TALK TO HIM.  HE IS ALLOWED TO TALK TO ME. 

So... .why did the one T think you were not allowed?  Why does he think he is not allowed? 

I still don't think I see a clear answer.  My question is about the people that are treating him... .that are part of his mental health support team.  This team is for him.  Do they want you guys communicating?  How do you know this information?

  he believes that the trial is still ongoing and keeps claiming he fears speaking will be considered witness tampering.

I'll be honest... .I've read nothing here... .NOTHING... .that clearly leads me to believe that he is wrong.  This is about him... .not you.  He is the one "on trial" and has a lot to loose.  It sounds like his lawyer has given him good advice.  I would let him follow his lawyers advice... .

  This makes me suspect he is not in frequent contact with his lawyer... .an agreement with his lawyer was only reached on 1/16/15 so maybe he wasn't told about it yet.

Has the judge and the rest of the system "signed off" on this agreement?

make him happy 

Is this a phrase that you commonly use?  What do you think of waveriders comments?

 

He is not asking me for any money.  He mentioned that he can't afford to go to a conference in February since he owes so much to the hospital and lawyer that he hired.

Good... I'm glad he hasn't asked.  With everything else going on... .best to drop the answer.  If he wants you to consider this... .he will clearly ask.  At that point you can decide if you want to spend the time and energy considering this.

[Stalwart]

Foxangle it was really good of you to respond in more detail and especially to 'fill in some of the blanks.' I know you're kind of looking for advice and direction but honestly, I think you already know that path.

I could focus in on 'flags' and I could also throw you all the judgmental adviced you could swallow but I really don't think it's appropriate or necessary.

I can see more in your post about recognizing and accepting your own responsibility in escalating a situation that confronted you and perhaps knowingly making it worse than it should have ever been. That IS NOT meant to be critical or condemning - it isn't. We've all probably at one time been in your exact position and yup, the personal stress and feelings of anger and 'revenge' we allow our own perceptions and ego to rise to can be really damaging when WE are the ones with the stability and rational to actually affect better reactions and control situations in a more positive way to help control outcomes.

On the whole it sounds as though your husband can actually perform on a really good level considering the possibility of this disorder being a mitigating factor. I'm really happy you recognize that and also seem to value that.

If you could do it over again foxangle would you have reacted along the way in the same manner and had him charged or given a second chance (which isn't possible) would you have handled the entire situation in a different way? I know hindsight and being able to remove your own negative reactions is great but how would you have changed that night or days and nights to follow it if you could?

By the way, just off the cuff I see so much more hopeful in your comments about your husband, his family and your possibilities in your relationship with him than I do negative - given the gravity of what seems a very severe situation he is facing and you are trying to cope with as well. The court systems here are extremely difficult and stressful to traverse in domestic situations - I think they're frightening everywhere, particularly when the outcomes so substantially affects a person going forward. It is scary and grey. I've never been on the wrong side of a situation dealing with courts and police but I"ve been there a few times supporting my spouse, not for validation of her actions, but in confirmation of the fact I'm simply there beside her and not going anywhere as a result of the actions she took.

It would really be interesting to read a quick rewrite of the incident if you had the ability to change the night or situation and what that would be in your thoughts and wants. That will answer the dilemma and questions you're considering I think.

Fact is foxangle; we can suggest until the cows come home, but you already know what's right and wrong for your situation and just need to solidify it into actions. I think it's equally true that only you really know all the nuances and interactions leading to, during and following the night so really, only you can know the answer that's best for you, and if his welfare and the future of your relationship together in this is also your concern.

Hoping to hear from you again.

Just wondering?

Rick

[foxangel82]

I don't want too get too deep into the details but yes the case is over.

Oh... .so... .if it's over... .why does he still have hearings?  That doesn't sound over.  In my line of work... .I have heavy involvement with court system.  None of this sounds even close to being "over"... .which is why I am asking questions... .there may be something I am missing.

  assuming he follows all the court orders

Is it a good idea to make assumptions?  The court system seems to be using time for him to "prove" his good intentions.  Very similar to the advice you are getting here.

Again, I have been told I do not need to testify.

This is what confuses me... .if it's over... .then there are no more things to be involved with or testify... .yet he still has hearings. 

What happens if they call you up and say something has changed... .and you need to testify?  Again... .I see changes in witness plans... .all the time.

I AM ALLOWED TO TALK TO HIM.  HE IS ALLOWED TO TALK TO ME. 

So... .why did the one T think you were not allowed?  Why does he think he is not allowed? 

I still don't think I see a clear answer.  My question is about the people that are treating him... .that are part of his mental health support team.  This team is for him.  Do they want you guys communicating?  How do you know this information?

  he believes that the trial is still ongoing and keeps claiming he fears speaking will be considered witness tampering.

I'll be honest... .I've read nothing here... .NOTHING... .that clearly leads me to believe that he is wrong.  This is about him... .not you.  He is the one "on trial" and has a lot to loose.  It sounds like his lawyer has given him good advice.  I would let him follow his lawyers advice... .

  This makes me suspect he is not in frequent contact with his lawyer... .an agreement with his lawyer was only reached on 1/16/15 so maybe he wasn't told about it yet.

Has the judge and the rest of the system "signed off" on this agreement?

make him happy 

Is this a phrase that you commonly use?  What do you think of waveriders comments?

 

He is not asking me for any money.  He mentioned that he can't afford to go to a conference in February since he owes so much to the hospital and lawyer that he hired.

Good... I'm glad he hasn't asked.  With everything else going on... .best to drop the answer.  If he wants you to consider this... .he will clearly ask.  At that point you can decide if you want to spend the time and energy considering this.

My understanding is his hearing is to officially accept the terms of the FUA.  These terms are that he 1. get a mental health evaluation 2. Get a substance abuse evaluation (including random drug tests I believe) 3. Complete a batterers prevention program that lasts about 6 months and 4. Receive probation for 1 year.  As I know it this is a formality and everything was already agreed to in previous emails with his defense attorney.  There are no "take backsies".  I have already asked this of the state attorney.  Fromflier it doesn't sound like you understand the court system in my state.

Here is the exact emails from the state attorney:

EMAIL 1

Great news: I just heard from the defense attorney and we have a deal. So you do not need to come to Court on Feb. 6th. The case is resolved. Thank you so much for your patience throughout these proceedings. If there is anything else we can do, please let me know.


EMAIL 2

Mr. Foxangel82 is required to appear in JDR[juvenile and domestic relations] on Feb. 6th for the plea agreement. The case has not been removed from the docket.

·         If he is compliant in Jan. 2016, the charge will be dismissed. If he is not compliant, then he will be found guilty of the Dom. A&B. At that point, he has 10 days to note his appeal. So, technically, if he does that, there could be a trial in Circuit Court. Although this is unlikely.

·         Talking to a victim or witness is not considered witness-tampering; even if it is talking about the offense. Witness tampering means that he is influencing you or telling you what to say in court

·         You are not required to have contact with the victim/ witness program. It is there to assist or aid you in the court process/ civil protective order process. So, if you don’t want their services, you don’t need to do anything to effectuate that.

·         This agreement won’t be revoked by the Commonwealth. You don’t have the ability to revoke this agreement. He might be found in violation if he is not-compliant, but that is not the same as the agreement being revoked. I cannot take this agreement away or revoke it at this point. Now, he could be held in violation if he commits a new criminal offense, such as a domestic A&B, or fails to comply with probation or his court ordered treatment. But that is something he should discuss with his lawyer.



I hope the above will help clear things up...

I will say that I DID NOT escalate anything the night he attacked me.  I think some readers are misunderstanding the timeline of events, but I agree it's complicated.  Really I was just standing there and he came in the door and beat me up and called me names.  There was no fight before or during.  I didn't even harm him in self-defense.  I tried my best to be forgiving that night and afterwards.  That all happened on 10/2/14.

What made me press charges on 11/30/14 was him smashing his head into the car window on purpose after our couples counseling session.  He had already gone to a 2 week mental health program and been getting weekly counseling sessions (from a different T) at that point.  I was shocked that he was not learning better "coping skills". 

I got the protective order on 11/30/14 not because I was angry or wanted revenge but because I was scared.  Likewise, getting the protective order seemed to necessitate describing the previous incident on 10/2/14 and I don't think the police would have approved the protective order if I did not press charges for the attack on 10/2/14.  Part of the reason I took legal action was because of talking to my mom on the phone that day while waiting in the ER. 

I'm not sure what would have happened on 11/30/14 if I just took him home.  He needed to have his head checked out at the ER anyway.  I don't know what I should have done differently.  Maybe not press charges, not gotten the protective order?  I wouldn't have done anything differently on 10/2/14 other than maybe go with him to the concert that night.  If I went I probably could have convinced him to go home earlier or not drink so much.

My last T thought maybe his attack was an act of "transference", as if attacking me would recreate his abuse with his mother and lead to a different outcome in his mind.  I don't know much about this idea and am not an expert in psychology.  I'm not sure if he was hoping to provoke me into fighting him (physically or verbally) but that's not what I do.

"So... .why did the one T think you were not allowed?  Why does he think he is not allowed?

I still don't think I see a clear answer.  My question is about the people that are treating him... .that are part of his mental health support team.  This team is for him.  Do they want you guys communicating?  How do you know this information?"

Fromflier I think you are not catching on... .  This T I spoke to is the T he is seeing currently.  She IS his mental health support team.  If she didn't want us communicating I think she would have said that to me already instead of asking his permission if it was ok and suggesting we do couples counseling with her.

His T thinks we can't talk because that's what he said to her, but it's not true.  DO YOU SERIOUSLY WANT A COPY OF MY PROTECTIVE ORDER?  This is getting kind of silly... .I'm starting to feel invalidated here!

Besides it can't be witness tampering if I'm no longer a witness for a trial.

I will be patient.  I think Grey Kitty had the best advice and I will offer financial help if he wants to reconcile although this seems a little manipulative.  It really comes down to the fact that I want to be fair to him and I feel like half of the wedding money belongs to him.  It's almost easier to give it to him now than wait for him to ask for it in a divorce. 

I don't believe giving him the money is something that I would do to "make him happy" but I do realize that a relationship takes 2 people and if he doesn't want to be with me any more then there's no sense fighting it.

There is cause for me to be optimistic about him because I consider him to be pretty high functioning and this is the first major incident after being together for 4 years.  He has pretty low self-esteem but I am hoping his therapist can help him work on that more. 

[Grey Kitty]

You didn't catch my advice the way I meant it. (Perhaps I was unclear)

I meant that *IF* you reconcile successfully with him. As in he's made it through the evaluations, gotten treatment, and made a lot of progress, and your r/s is going forward well... .and I don't see this possible that quickly--I see this being months from now.

Only after that has worked well would I suggest you think about offering him money to deal with this. Besides, you said that a lot of it is medical bills... .and if he doesn't have enough money, he could likely make partial payment arrangements, and stretch it out longer.

I think if you mention money as a possibility to him now, it could be manipulative, as you said... .and might motivate him to try really hard to "look good" for you, more than he is ready or committed for.

[foxangel82]

You didn't catch my advice the way I meant it. (Perhaps I was unclear)

I meant that *IF* you reconcile successfully with him. As in he's made it through the evaluations, gotten treatment, and made a lot of progress, and your r/s is going forward well... .and I don't see this possible that quickly--I see this being months from now.

Only after that has worked well would I suggest you think about offering him money to deal with this. Besides, you said that a lot of it is medical bills... .and if he doesn't have enough money, he could likely make partial payment arrangements, and stretch it out longer.

I think if you mention money as a possibility to him now, it could be manipulative, as you said... .and might motivate him to try really hard to "look good" for you, more than he is ready or committed for.

I was probably unclear, but yes I still agree with you. I understand that a reconciliation would take months. 

I won't tell him I am considering giving him money either.  Most of his expenses at this point are the lawyer's fees (about $2,500) and I'm sure that those will continue to increase for a little while, or at least until after his hearing in Feb.

I'll see where this all goes...

Even if his T won't see me individually I asked her to recommend others that I can see.

He seems to know that he has a mental illness at this point, but it's unclear to me if they have told him whether he has more than just depression and anxiety.

[foxangel82]

Looks like I'm being too aggressive in pursuing him. He called me at work for the first time in months (everything else has been emails and texts), said "it's over" and hung up. Yesterday he texted me asking if I thought either of us owed the other money or property.  This makes me think he's putting together a separation agreement. I haven't answered yet.

I saw he unfriended me on facebook (something he told me he never does). It makes me pretty sad, but at the same time I can't force him to stay. It's not worth my effort if his foot is already out the door.  It hurts that he can alienate me from my friends and forget about the 4 years we had together so quickly.

He messaged me last week curious about how I knew he was dating other people. I responded that he no longer says we are married on Facebook. I think he needs to learn for himself that the grass isn't always greener.

His therapist will probably email me the news tomorrow and I'm just dreading it. I asked her to recommend other T if she can't see me, but I was really hoping to learn what I did wrong.

I'll also respond to her that I didn't mean to force him to make a decision about us or stress him out. I'm fine with him dating other people for a while if that's what it takes to learn that we had a great relationship together. I think part of this goes back to him having a "midlife crisis" and feeling like he missed out on his 20's (he's 29).  I heard these episodes are common for people who are 29, 39, 49, 59, etc.

I still don't feel right trying to date other people right now. I just feel too old to play this game only to lose trust in people.

[waverider]

This is his choice

You did nothing wrong

If you had paid his expenses only to then have him walk, then how would you have felt?

[foxangel82]

This is his choice

You did nothing wrong

If you had paid his expenses only to then have him walk, then how would you have felt?

Indeed it is his decision. I told myself that this was a possible outcome. It is almost better now that his actions align better with his words.

I have not answered him yet on whether we owe each other money. I am still considering giving him his fair share of it. I am curious if he expects I owe him something or not.  I have already given him most of his belongings per his request. I love him and think it's better to kill him with kindness even if he's painting me black.

I think any costs associated with divorce should be paid by him if that's what he really wants to do.

[waverider]

. I am curious if he expects I owe him something or not. 

Ask him

[Grey Kitty]

I have a negotiating tip for you, in general: The first person to name a price usually loses.

So don't respond to his request about who owes who what.

Do think about it. Does he owe you anything? Do you owe him anything? Are there any shared assets or shared debts?

Another reason to not say anything... .when a pwBPD threatens to leave you, it doesn't mean as much to them as when you threaten to leave them... .or if you just act like you believe their threat. If you are thinking of reconciling with him still, no need for that provocation.

The costs of a low-conflict divorce are likely paid by the person more in a hurry to be legally unencumbered by the other... .for whatever reason.

How are you holding up?

[formflier]

  but I was really hoping to learn what I did wrong. 

You did nothing wrong... .

And you don't owe him an answer... .or communication... .especially with the communication tactics he is using.

Might be best to let him know that you are ready to discuss the status of the r/s... .when he is ready to "talk properly" about it. 

Hang in there... .you didn't do anything wrong.

What can you do to focus on you... .in the next couple of days... .?

[foxangel82]

  but I was really hoping to learn what I did wrong. 

You did nothing wrong... .

And you don't owe him an answer... .or communication... .especially with the communication tactics he is using.

Might be best to let him know that you are ready to discuss the status of the r/s... .when he is ready to "talk properly" about it. 

Hang in there... .you didn't do anything wrong.

What can you do to focus on you... .in the next couple of days... .?

I do feel like I have made mistakes. He has a tendency to take people at their word even when they are upset/angry, so I know I said some things I shouldn't have.

When I first talked to his T I said he thought I was abusive to him. He was leaving pamphlets about being in an abusive relationship lying around and acting like I was angry with him when I wasn't back in the fall. He said he felt like he had to walk on eggshells around me. I wanted to hash out if there's any truth to it. I do admit I was trying to keep him from going to parties with drinking to help him stay sober. I also wanted to keep him from hanging out with the friends who blamed me for the attack. I guess I forced him to choose between friends and me and I lost.

I'm not as depressed now as I was before when I first got the protective order. Then I would cry for days. I only felt relief by deciding to let him choose the fate of the relationship. Maybe this is all a blessing in disguise. I know I can find someone better than him the problem is being able to ever trust a man again.

I am going to Washington DC this weekend and I've been eating out a lot this week (it's restaurant week in my town). I've been catching up on movies and I'm trying to make plans to do more social things.

I am still friends with his sister on Facebook and I can see that she is the top visitor to my home page. I'm not sure if I should unfriend her or not. I'm sure she will probably tell him what I do.

I try to refrain from being impulsive since I think it will lead to regrets and irrational decisions. Part of me wants to reply "you owe me a trillion dollars" since he used to joke he was a trillion dollar bill (as in he was worthless but I believed he was priceless-he has accused me of putting him on a pedestool but I know he has flaws too). Otherwise I don't think I'll answer until at least after his hearing on feb 6. I agree with grey kitty that he should man up and talk to me about the relationship. Maybe he fears seeing me will be painful. His previous texts said he wouldn't make emotional gestures or statements until the criminal matter was settled. This is confusing because he hasn't had his hearing yet, so he probably would think it's not settled. Maybe he was just saying that as an excuse to avoid talking to me.

I see he's still struggling to find a replacement for me and signed up for multiple dating apps and websites. Who knows maybe he will start looking at men. I think he just wants someone to be aggressive and make the moves on him like I did, but most girls will play games.

I can't imagine his T trying to convince him to reconcile or work out his feelings. I can't remember how stubborn he is and if he'll look foolish to himself if he changes his mind. I feel like I have just a 5% chance with him at this point.